"It's this simple: once Steven Avery is accused of this murder, and a lot of things... seem to clearly point to him having done it, as much as you mentally want to give the benefit of the doubt to him," "it becomes impossible." "This is Action 2 News at five." "Coverage you can count on." "Ironically, Steven Avery's arrest comes at the same time Governor Jim Doyle plans to sign a sweeping criminal justice reform bill inspired by Avery's wrongful conviction." "Two weeks ago, the bill passed unanimously and Governor Doyle told me today he will sign it, despite the pending murder charges against Avery." "I assume that the legislators who named this task force probably wish they had a different name for it." "I just told the governor's office, you know, you can actually just sign that behind closed doors, just get it done." "TheymadetheAveryBill  so an innocent person ain't gotta sit in jail for something they didn't do." "And their word ain't no good on it." "I was up there to all the meetings." "They know me." "The should have some kind of respect to know what I'm like." "They just don't get what happened." "You know, they don't care about the truth." "Representative Mark Gundrum says he's in utter shock over Avery's arrest." "It's just, it's kind of hard to grapple with that somebody that shows emotions like that, like a human being, could in fact be a monster." "We also learned today the deposition schedule for tomorrow in Steven Avery's civil lawsuit against Manitowoc County had been canceled." "The transformation from Steven Avery as wronged victim of a miscarriage of justice to Steven Avery, the horrendous murderer of an innocent young woman..." "was breathtaking." "It left me stunned." "The absence of any serious commentary that the presumption of innocence that he enjoys may, in fact, be valid." "That there should not be a rush to judgment." "I thought it was just awesome how endangered he is as an accused." " What are you gonna present today?" " Uh, no comment." "Is he gonna wait or go ahead with his prelim?" "We're gonna have a prelim." " Watch out." " I'm sorry?" "I missed that." " We're having a prelim today." "Yes." " OK." "Are you confident about the case?" "As confident as I can be at this point." "We still have a lot of information to gather, so..." "Thanks." "Would you guys put up your property as bond?" "Are you willing to risk everything that you have?" "Yes, we are." "Mr. Avery?" "Have you talked to him on the phone?" "Have you said anything to him?" "Wait right here, OK?" "All rise." "You may be seated." "At this time, the court calls State of Wisconsin v. Steven A. Avery." "These matters are scheduled for a preliminary examination this afternoon." "Mr. Kratz, you may call your first witness." "Ms. Sturm, when you came across a RAV4 at the Avery Auto Salvage, can you tell us what you saw and what you thought?" "Well, it was so unusual because there were branches leaning up against this vehicle." "So I went around to the back and it says "RAV4" on it, Toyota, and it..." "I just..." "I thought," ""Well, yeah, it's gotta be that car."" "From the eight feet south of that burn pit," "I could clearly see that there was some bone matter located around the debris pile." "And then I walked over and took a closer look at the charred debris and there was quite a bit of bone matter intertwined within the steel belts of burned tires and so forth." "At one point, we found a key that appeared to be from a Toyota vehicle." "It was on the floor when we found it, next to a cabinet that Lieutenant Lenk and Sergeant Colborn had been searching." "All right." "And Lieutenant Lenk and Sergeant Colborn are officers of Calumet County?" " Uh, no, Manitowoc County." " Manitowoc County." "And as far as you know, no one saw this key until November 8th, is that right?" "Correct." "And those slippers were moved before the key was seen?" "Yes." "And the first time they were moved, nobody saw the key?" "The key wasn't there the first time they were moved." "And when you saw it there, it was sitting out there in plain view right on the floor, is that right?" "It was actually Lieutenant Lenk that saw the key first." "He pointed to the floor and said, "There's a key there."" "The profile developed from the buckle swabs that were taken from Steven Avery was consistent with the DNA profile that I developed from both the Toyota key and the apparent blood stains that were taken from the ignition." "Nothing further." "All right, the witness is excused." "We'll take our afternoon break at this time." "It's my belief, having attended the preliminary hearing, that there's a tremendous opportunity to present a real and substantial defense." "But he would need a lot of money to put up the kind of defense that should be put up in this criminal case." "Based on the evidence presented, the court is going to determine that there's probable cause to believe that a felony has been committed." "We are adjourned for today." "Mrs. Avery, I'm Angenette from Channel 5." " We just wanted to ask you..." " My son is innocent." " What's the matter with you?" " Ma'am, can you please tell us about that?" "In spite of all the evidence today?" "You know, he's denying this." "He certainly has to blame it on someone else." "Why not..." "I mean..." "He chooses the Manitowoc County police." "I don't believe that one bit." "Um..." "All the evidence I know about and the evidence, other evidence, that was presented today obviously are leading to him." "Today, the Halbach family came face-to-face with Steven Avery, the man accused of killing their beloved Teresa." "Steven Avery remains in the Calumet County jail on a $500,000 cash bond." "If convicted of these charges," "Steven Avery will spend the rest of his life in prison." "They got two weeks to get me out." " Who does?" " Anybody." "If I ain't out, it's over." "Now you're talking stupid again." "No, I'm giving myself two weeks." " Don't act so stupid!" " You watch me." " What?" " It's over." " Don't get strange." " I ain't strange." "'Cause I'm sick of this world." "I'm sick of suffering." "You know, better days are coming." "Just..." "No, there ain't no better days coming." "Yeah, there is." "No, there could be worse days coming." " Just hold on and..." " I'm gonna hold on." "Two weeks." "...you'll be out." "'Cause I'm putting the business up." "That's more than your bail, even." "That should've been put up a long time ago, then." "I told you, I'm sick of this." "I know you're going through hell, but... settle down and settle the mind down." " We won't give up on this side." " I'm giving up on this side." "You don't give up on your side, either." "Well, then you gotta put your ass in gear, then." "We're trying, Steve, so you just gotta hang in there and whatnot." "They're gonna win anyway." "No, they're not." "Poor people lose." "Poor people lose all the time." "Yeah, I don't know." " Well, I'll put Ma back on here now." " All right." "Now don't talk stupid." "You're innocent." "What's the matter with you?" " I know." "But so what?" " I'll give you a "so what."" "I'll hit you right on your nose through the phone." "Yeah?" "Come on, then." " There." "Now I hurt my finger." " Yeah." "Critical evidence builds the case against Steven Avery." "We're live with how DNA leaves little doubt about the fate of Teresa Halbach." "State Senator Alan Lasee introduced an advisory referendum that would let voters decide if the death penalty should be brought back." "Every statement he makes to the press, to the media, will be taken apart." "These are the Easter cards Steven Avery sent to his four children in 1988." "He asked for kisses, then threatens to kill his ex-wife." "Just another side to this man's seemingly split personality." ""Steven Avery is a murderer." "May your entire family rot in hell." "Bastard."" "That's just one of the letters that we get." "Well, this one was real nasty." "This one says "Steven Avery is a killer." "Please tell his mother to shut her mouth." "The public does not want to hear it."" "It seems to me right now that he's getting treated just like a dog or anything else that's cooped up." "But... who am I to say?" "Who am I?" "I think they ought to just leave him out and let us go on with our lives and leave us alone." "Theycanhavethe money." "You know, if it's 'cause of all that money." "I'll give that money up." "As long as they let me alone." "I want my freedom, and I want to get married again." "Money ain't nothing, you know, if I can't live it." "I pray the media, the people that said, "Find him guilty," think about that." "Why would he do it?" "Don't people see this?" "He had his whole life ahead of him." "Spent 20 years in prison trying to get out." "Parents trying to get you out." "You get out." "You got a big smile on your face." "You're walking out." "You're happy." "To put the handcuffs back on you?" "No." "No." "Something..." "Something is terribly wrong there." "Something is terribly wrong." "They don't care." "They'll take an innocent man and make him guilty, and that's what they're doing right now." "We went through this... 20 years ago." "And we're going through it now again." "I really do think he was framed." "You know?" "There's a lot that points to where the Sheriff's Department could've had something to do with it." "And then I don't know if it's true or not, but I also heard that Manitowoc County was not supposed to be allowed in to search and they were in there and they searched." "And that's who found the key apparently after the third day was the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department." "So I mean, none of it, like I said, none of it really adds up." "I only have one word, from the cops on up: corruption." "I mean, big time." "I mean, if people dig far enough, they'll see that." "It wasn't supposed to do that!" "I'm up here." "Why you looking?" "It doesn't matter." "I don't care what anybody says, that's a lot of money to pay off from here in Manitowoc County." "It's a small area, and I really, truly believe the county didn't have the funds to pay it out, so somehow, some way..." "I don't care if they hate me... that somehow, some way, something got set up." "I don't care who it was." "And they can say, "Oh, you really believe that Manitowoc Police Department and the FBI and everybody came in and they set this all up just to have Steven Avery guilty of this thing?" Yes, I do." "I'm sorry." "Yes, I do." "A developing story tonight." "Steven Avery has settled his civil lawsuit against Manitowoc County." "He's only getting a tiny fraction of the $36 million he wanted." ""In exchange for payment, Manitowoc County does not admit fault or liability."" " I've had a zillion phone calls." " OK." "OK." "OK, wait a minute." "This is again for the... just for the record, just state your name and spell it for me, please." "Uh, Tom Kocourek." "K-o-c-o-u-r-e-k." "OK, and the former sheriff." "When did you work there in Manitowoc?" "I worked as sheriff for 22 years." "I started in 1979 and went for 22 years." "OK." "Now the fact this is settled now, I guess Manitowoc does not... admit any wrongdoing." "Do you yourself, because you were involved, do you feel any sense of relief in all this?" "Well, it's just good to have it over with and... it's a relief for... me and my family." "I'm sure it's a relief for Manitowoc County as well." "Happy to have it over with." "No one ever intended to do anybody any harm by this." "We firmly believed that we had the guilty party at the time and... the victim had identified him as such and that's what we worked on." "This way, they figure they just got away with it," " they can do it again." " Yeah." "You know, it ain't gonna stop 'em." "You might say they won again." "You know?" "What is $400,000?" "That ain't nothing to them." "I had to do it." "You know, just to get a lawyer." "Because I wasn't gonna win with a public defender." "So I guess it was time to settle and take..." "I guess take another loss." "Steven was rapidly, in the most serious of circumstances that any citizen could be in, accused of murder." "He did not have the resources to defend himself." "Importantly, I think, even though he was being charged in this current murder case, his civil case still had enough value for us to be able to settle it in a way that he would have the funds necessary" "to defend himself in the criminal case." "The consequences of that settlement to... the system... which are really, in my book, equally important to the financial side of it, are horrendous, OK?" "They're horrendous in the sense that nobody is being held responsible for what happened to Steven Avery." "It might get him out, what he's got." "Hoping." " Collect call from..." " Steven Avery." "...an inmate at the Calumet County jail." " Hello?" " Hey, Steve." " Oh, hi." "All right." " How are ya?" "Good." "I just thought I'd touch base with you on a couple of things, just to make sure that you weren't feeling abandoned out there." " Yeah." " You know." "I didn't want that to be happening." "And I've been talking to a number of lawyers and the guy that I could put at the top of my list is Dean Strang." " Yeah?" " He's my ex-partner, and the thing that put him at the top of the list for me is that I know that a lot of the Manitowoc cops are... well, I don't want to say "afraid of him,"" "but they know him and they respect him as a lawyer, and I think that gives him a little bit of an edge." "Now the other guy that I have been thinking about is a lawyer named Jerry Buting." "He's had a number of high-notoriety cases, and if it will turn out that, you know, that they'd be willing to work together on the case, that would be phenomenal." " All right, Steve." " OK, man." "Hang in there." "All right." "Thanks a lot." " OK." "Bye-bye." " Bye-bye." "I want to cover our..." "Where was Barb's car for sale?" "Where would Teresa have parked?" "Where did they find her car?" "What are the ways in?" "Let's do it." "I didn't see them plant evidence with my own two eyes." "I didn't see it." "But do I understand how human beings might be tempted to plant evidence under the circumstances in which the Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department found itself after Steven's exoneration, of the lawsuit, of the Avery Commission, of the governor hugging Steven" "and holding him up as an example of the criminal justice system gone wrong?" "Do I have any difficulty understanding what human emotions might have driven police officers to want to augment or confirm their beliefs that he must have killed Teresa Halbach?" "I don't have any difficulty understanding those human emotions at all." "The car was right in the..." "in the roadway here." "Is this little roadway... is this used much?" "Do you know?" "I mean, do they...?" "Not that often." " All right." " OK." "So you've got motivation for the officers to want to get him." "And then when lo and behold there's this woman who disappears and one of the last people she saw was Steven Avery... now we've got him." "A-ha!" "We knew it." "They conclude that he's guilty right off the bat." "This was all the way open..." "And they thought, "We're gonna make sure he's convicted."" "And they helped it along by planting his blood in the RAV4 and by planting that key in his bedroom." "See, I was going up north on Friday and I saw headlights when I was about, well, maybe a quarter or halfway down our driveway." "You saw headlights on that road down there?" "Yeah, that's what I told the detectives too and stuff, the investigators." "OK." "And he thought I was full of shit." "I got a better chance now." "I got lawyers." "The best ones in Wisconsin, both of them." "And they know what they're doing." "There's so many ways they can go that prove my innocence." "I just hope the truth comes out on this, so we can find out who did it." "You know, and if it's the cops..." "I don't know if we'll ever find that out or not." "See, that's the only thing that scares me." "Some of the evidence, DNA evidence at the scene, it's impossible for us to have that type of evidence." "You know, to plant that..." "It's just... it's not realistic." "Very..." "It's impossible." "Never..." "It's... not even..." "How should I say..." "I'm thinking of a word, but it's just..." "It's so far-fetched, it's impractical." "So..." "OK, we'll begin." "Um..." "Late this afternoon, a 16-year-old juvenile male who was a relative of Steven Avery was taken into custody, and he is currently being detained at a juvenile facility." "The 16-year-old juvenile admitted his involvement in the death of Teresa Halbach, as well as Steven Avery's involvement in this matter." "Sheriff Pagel and I will be releasing to the media the specifics of this case." "I will be filing, as I mentioned, a criminal complaint tomorrow, and by 2:00 p.m. that will be available for release to all of you." "Mr. Kratz, can you tell us, because of what's happened with the 16-year-old, might the charges that exist now against Steven Avery change or become less, like he had less of a role?" " No." " No." "Are the buildings you're searching today buildings" " that you've already searched?" " Yes." "I know you've searched Mr. Avery's..." "We have done extensive searches of every building on that property." "With the degree of specificity that we'd received this week, knowing exactly what to look for and exactly where to look for it, led to the issuance of today's search warrant." "A major break in this case tonight as authorities plan to charge that 16-year-old boy." "Tonight, we did speak with the mother of this 16-year-old." "This is what she had to say." "Steven, I know you're gonna be watching this, but you know," "I hate you for what you did to my kid." "All right?" "So you can rot in hell." "Now another press conference will be held at 2:00 p.m. tomorrow." "At that time, this teen will be charged, and more details, including details of Teresa's death, are expected to be released at that time." " Tom?" " Oh, boy, what a story." "I know that there are some news outlets that are carrying this live, and perhaps there may be some children that are watching this." "I'm gonna ask that if you're under the age of 15, that you discontinue watching this press conference." "We have now determined what occurred sometime between 3:45 p.m. and 10:00 or 11:00 p.m." "on the 31st of October." "Sixteen-year-old Brendan Dassey, who lives next door to Steven Avery in a trailer, returned home on the bus from school about 3:45 p.m." "He retrieved the mail and noticed one of the letters was for his uncle, Steven Avery." "As Brendan approaches the trailer, as he actually gets several hundred feet away from the trailer, a long, long way from the trailer," "Brendan already starts to hear the screams." "As Brendan approaches the trailer, he hears louder screams for help, recognizes it to be of a female individual and he knocks on Steven Avery's trailer door." "Brendan says that he knocks at least three times and has to wait until the person he knows as his uncle, who is partially dressed, who is full of sweat... opens the door and greets his 16-year-old nephew." "Brendan accompanies his sweaty 43-year-old uncle down the hallway to Steven Avery's bedroom." "And there they find Teresa Halbach completely naked and shackled to the bed." "Teresa Halbach is begging Brendan for her life." "The evidence that we've uncovered... establishes that Steven Avery at this point invites his 16-year-old nephew to sexually assault this woman that he has had bound to the bed." "During the rape, Teresa's begging for help, begging 16-year-old Brendan to stop, that "you can stop this."" "Sixteen-year-old Brendan, under the instruction of Steven Avery... cuts Teresa Halbach's throat..." "but she still doesn't die." "The horrible picture of how Teresa Halbach died, painted by a 16-year-old boy who couldn't keep his terrible secret any longer." "Investigators from here at the Calumet County Sheriff's Department and from the Wisconsin Department of Justice interviewed Brendan Dassey twice this week." "They used his statements like instructions to put together pieces of a sick puzzle." "According to this complaint, Dassey and Avery are accused of choking Teresa Halbach and then dragging her lifeless body outside, throwing her in the burn pit and shooting her in the head and in the stomach." "Today's development certainly on the minds of many." "Here is what some people in the Fox Valley had to say." "I'm a little surprised by the age of him, but I wasn't... wasn't surprised there was somebody else involved." "I think he did help him out." "I don't think he was the master behind it, but I think he helped him out." "You know, I believed him at first and now it's the other way around, you know." "Although the defendant is 16 years of age, there is original adult court jurisdiction and therefore the same bond considerations apply to Mr. Dassey as would any other defendant." "Those in this case include the potential penalty that Mr. Dassey faces, which includes life imprisonment, as well as the character and strength of the evidence presented, which includes not only physical evidence but inculpatory statements being made by Mr. Dassey." "Given those factors, Your Honor, the state is going to request cash bail in the amount of $250,000." "Mr. Sczygelski." "Your Honor, this court I'm sure is well aware my client is a juvenile." "He is a sophomore at Mishicot High School." "He has never been in trouble in high school as far as I know, or any type of school." "He has no juvenile record whatsoever, certainly no criminal record." "He has indicated in his statement to the authorities that this was a result in large part of being threatened by Mr. Avery, that this was something that was not done willingly by him." "In sum, Your Honor, this is a case that involves a young man who himself has been victimized by Mr. Avery." "Based upon those circumstances, Your Honor," "I think a $250,000 cash bail is excessive." "He admitted his guilt and he said that Avery was involved as well, so I take that as truth." "And that's something I haven't seen in this case quite yet." "Especially in Steven Avery's case." "The Wisconsin Innocence Project is distancing itself from one of its best-known cases." "Today that group removed Steven Avery's picture from its website." "Until today, Avery's photo was included with three other wrongful convictions uncovered by the group." "Now finally, late this afternoon, Dassey's attorney told me over the phone he does plan to remove himself from the case." "Turns out, he's actually a distant relative of Teresa Halbach." "Hello?" "This is a collect call from an inmate at the Calumet County jail." "To accept this call, dial five now." " Yeah?" " Yeah?" " What?" " You got $100,000 for me?" " Where am I gonna get it from?" " What do you mean?" " What's the $100,000 for?" " An attorney for my son." "He's got an attorney." " Well, I just lost him, OK?" " How?" "What do you mean "how"?" "Because he's second cousins with Halbach." "How can I help?" "Well, he sure the fuck didn't do it by himself." "Well, I certainly didn't do it." "Where did Brendan get all this shit from?" "He's going down for something that he would've never ever fucking did." "Oh, what about me?" "Why would he say this about you then?" "You tell me." "He was over by you that night." "That night he came over, we had the bonfire and he was home by 9:00, 'cause Jodi called me at 9:00, and I was in the house already." "So you're telling me when he got off the bus, he didn't come over by you with an envelope from out of my mailbox?" "No, he did not." "Then what the fuck are they trying to do?" "You'd have to ask him." "So my son's gonna go to prison?" "Well, I don't know." "What do you mean, you don't know?" "Yes, he is gonna." "Life in prison he's gonna get." "And he's only 16." "It ain't my fault." "Is it?" "It ain't my fault at all." "Just by his statement right there, he's got life." "And there ain't nothing I can do with that." "Why would he admit to something?" "How do I know?" "Well, that's what you gotta figure out." "How am I supposed to figure that out when he's in there and I'm out here?" "Well, you go see him and you talk to him and tell him to be straight with you." "Where'd he get this from?" "You know?" "Ask questions." "Because it didn't happen over by me." "Well, it didn't happen by me either." "Well, then it happened somewhere else." "Well, just see what you can do and if nothing else, if you want me to call you, let Ma know." " Yeah, OK, then." " All right, then." " All right." " I love you." " Yeah." " OK, then." " Bye." " Bye." "When I first read the report, I was mad and disgusted." "But then hearing from Brendan last night, I just changed my whole attitude." "I mean, I believe in my son, and I believe he's telling the truth when he told his first statement." "And that they interrogated him and made him say what they wanted to hear." "I came to pick up Jodi." " Did you hear me on that talker thing?" " No." "I don't know." "Huh!" "They made a mess, didn't they?" "Holy shit." "Oh, my God." "You know, I wouldn't even know where to look for my purse." "'Cause it was on the bed." "Eh..." "What a mess." "I can't believe they took my purse." "It's a good thing I have my ID." "Otherwise, I couldn't go see him." "Are you here to see Mr. Avery?" "Jodi, how are you feeling going in to see Steven?" " Fine." " What are you gonna say to him?" "This is the first time you've seen him or..." "Yes." "I really don't want to talk." "Is there anything you'd like us to say?" "No." "Can we give you questions for him?" "No." "So you've been in jail how long?" "This is the first time you've seen him in how long?" "What do you think about the charges he's facing?" "Is there a reason that you don't want to say anything or...?" "This is no longer purely a circumstantial evidence case based on the new allegations made by the state." "And the court would have to characterize the strength of the evidence at this point is greater than it had been in the past." "Things did not go well for Steven Avery here in court this afternoon." "The judge allowed Special Prosecutor Ken Kratz to add three new charges against Avery:" "sexual assault, false imprisonment and kidnapping, based on statements made by Avery's nephew, Brendan Dassey." "Another blow to the defense:" "the judge will not allow Avery's parents to post property as part of Steven's bond." "Now the judge not only denied the property request for bail, he increased it from a half million dollars to $750,000." "The court knows, I know." "Perhaps some in the public or some in the media even have forgotten that he's innocent." "As he sits here today, he is legally presumed innocent." "I mean, we can dress him up in something that makes him look like he jumped off a Monopoly game board or something." "He's a "get out of jail free" card come to life." "But he's innocent." "I've always been taught not to judge a book by its cover, and, uh, knowing what I know about Steven Avery, um, what's between the covers isn't very good." "So regardless of what he's wearing, it doesn't make any difference." "He's, you know, still the same person, so..." "And I think the public knows that." "Thereain'tno reason why he couldn't take the property bond." "That's just like..." "I'm gonna run and put my family out on the street." "I'm not gonna do that." "That's ridiculous." "They just don't want me out." "You know, they got me looking like an animal." "And they think that I'm gonna run." "Innocent people don't run." "I'm pretty positive in my head right now, in my mind... that he did do it." "But, um, I don't see what made him do that." "I don't know." "I..." "Maybe as well with the 18 years he spent in prison, maybe he got... stuff like other inmates did and everything else and that..." "I don't know." "Only them two know what went on that night." "She don't offer to come up to see her grandson, and she doesn't talk to me." "Honestly, I think they disowned me." "I went through it more than she did, really." "I spent a lot of sleepless nights." "Lot of crying." "Now I gotta start it all over again." "They got our family all tore right apart." "It's not right." "Got my wife tore apart." "She'll never be the same." "Never be the same." "Talk to me." "I miss you." "I miss you, too." " What's the matter?" " Hm?" "What's the matter?" "I don't know." "Depends if I get out or not." "If I don't..." "I don't know." "You gotta have faith." "It's driving me up the wall." "I know." "You know, especially when I can't talk to you." "I know." "You know, all I want to do now, is get this all over with and move." "Yeah." "Me and you." "And hopefully we can get your kid and be a family." "Well, let's just concentrate on you first." "Yeah." "But I'd like it all." "I know." "I knew I should never have moved to Manitowoc." "But then I wouldn't have met you." "You're the only person I want in this whole world." " OK." " Huh?" "OK." " OK?" " OK." " That's all?" " Well, me too." "I tell you that all the time, though." "Yeah." "I'd like to hear it more." "Yeah?" "OK." "If you look at this case, if, uh..." "Mr. Avery is convicted of it," "I guess, you know, you can look at the other side of that where if he wouldn't have been released, we'd, you know..." "Miss Halbach would still most likely be here." "And then you start thinking to yourself," ""Boy, maybe it was good he was in all that time."" "As unjust as it was, if he did this, what might he have done during that time?" "And you just start questioning the whole system." "You can't put people in prison because you think someday they might do something wrong." "Or even horrible." "Or heinous." "You know?" "Um, but you still have these conflicting thoughts and feelings." "To me, if Steven did this, and I don't know, it doesn't seem like..." "It seems a little too sophisticated for the Steven I knew." "Um..." "Boy, it seems to me that what happened all those years has a lot to do with it." "Because it would've..." "It developed him into somebody else that he wasn't when he started." "Even if he did have anger for being in prison all this time, anybody would have anger." "I'd have anger." "I mean, I would be hell mad." "But that doesn't mean I'd go around and kill somebody." "You know, I'd sue just like he was doing." "Suing." "Two weeks before I was released from jail, investigators were gonna bring in pictures to show me of Teresa's body and how it was burnt, and there was still muscle tissues on the bones." "There was a lot of pressure they were putting on me to turn against Steven." "I've been doing this job a long time." "I've met a lot of interesting people, a lot of people that are similar to Steve." "But I've never met somebody as cold-blooded... as him." "To think what he did to that girl." "Sit and think about that for a minute." " Think about her family." " Oh, I do all the time." "Well, I hope you do." "Because by sticking up for him, what does that make you look like?" " Well, I know, but..." "I just..." " He killed her." "He killed her." "He's the only one who sees her in that time frame." "He's the last one to see her." "Think about that." "She just disappears?" "Yeah, she disappears because he killed her." "That's the kind of person you want to spend the rest of your life with?" "When Jodi was in jail, she put a request in not to talk to the investigators anymore." "Meaning Mark and Tom." "And three days later, they went after Brendan." "Let's see it." "Why don't you just have a seat, Brendan?" "Tom and I just gotta step out for a minute and then we'll be right in, OK?" " OK." " All right." "They'd been working for about four months trying to build a case against Steven Avery and there were still a fair number of people out there who said," ""I'm not convinced." "I think Steven Avery might be innocent." "You know, there may be more to what he says than that."" "And one of the things that helped support Avery at that time was that Brendan Dassey was Steve's alibi." "They knew they could get to Brendan because he's a slow learner." "They told him that they talked to me and it was OK for them to talk to him." "And it wasn't." "They never called me." "They never let me know." "They just went and done it." "We know there's some things you left out and we know there's some things that maybe weren't quite correct that you told us." "OK?" "We've been investigating this a long time." "We pretty much know everything." "That's why we're talking to you again today." "We really need you to be honest this time with everything, OK?" "If in fact you did some things which we believe some things may have happened that you didn't want to tell us about, it's OK." "As long as you can..." "As long as you be honest with us, it's OK." "If you lie about it, that's gonna be problems, OK?" " Does that sound fair?" "All right." " Mm-hm." "The two detectives developed this theme of honesty and they repeatedly, dozens of times in that interview, they say to Brendan, "Now be honest, OK?" "You know how important it is to be honest."" "But when you watch the videotapes, it's clear to me, I think, that when they say to Brendan, "Be honest,"" "what they sort of mean is..." ""Don't tell us that, tell us something else."" "Something that fits their theory of the crime." "I think you went over to his house, maybe you asked him to get his mail, something in here is missing." "Well, when I got the mail, there was like an envelope in there with his name on it." " All right." " OK." "Now we're going." "What did you do?" "I knocked on the door and he answered it." " Yeah, and then what?" " I gave it to him and then I left." "Come on now." "You just heard screaming over there." "Stop making this hard on us and yourself." "Be honest." "You went inside, didn't you?" " Yeah." " You went in the trailer?" " Mm-hm." " You're nodding." "I think the detectives in this case were unaware that the degree to which they were shaping Brendan's statements." "That's why it's very important to take a look at the record of the interrogation to see who mentions particular facts first." "Do they come from Brendan without any help from the police or do they in fact come first from the police?" "And there are several occasions in these interrogations where apparently crucial bits of information are mentioned first by the police and not by Brendan Dassey." "Where they really messed up was when they tried to get the one fact, the one absolutely secret fact that nobody in the public yet knew, was how Teresa Halbach died." "Nobody knew that they had evidence that she had been shot in the head." "If they could get Brendan to say that, then that would be dynamite, because no one knew that and here if he came out and said it, then it must be the truth." "And so they kept asking him, "Come on, Brendan." "Something else happened to her now." "We know something else happened to her."" "And eventually they got more specific." ""What else happened to her?" "Something happened to her head, Brendan, tell us."" "This is after he says, "Well, we stabbed her."" ""Well, yeah, but what else happened to her?" "Something happened to her head." Hint, hint." "Come on." "Something with the head." "Brendan?" "What else did you guys do?" "Come on." "What he made you do, Brendan." "We know he made you do something else." "What was it?" "What was it?" "We have the evidence, Brendan." "We just need you to... to be honest with us." " That he cut off her hair." " He cut off her hair?" "OK." "What else?" "What else was done to her head?" "That he punched her." "What else?" "When you look at him, he's just sort of sitting there with these long pauses and he..." "You can almost see, you know, the wheels in his head turning however slowly, saying, "What do they want from me?"" "And he's guessing." "It's OK." "What did he make you do?" " Cut her." " Cut her where?" " On her throat." " You cut her throat?" "What else happens to her?" "In her head?" "Extremely important you tell us this... for us to believe you." "Come on, Brendan." "What else?" "We know." "We just need you to tell us." "That's all I can remember." "All right, I'm just gonna come out and ask you." "Who shot her in the head?" " He did." " Why didn't you tell us that?" "'Cause I couldn't think of it." "Now you remember it?" "Tell us about that then." "I think Wiegert is the one who actually got frustrated and said," ""All right, I'm just gonna come out and say it." "Who shot her in the head?"" "And of course the answer is "He did," but by then, he's blown the one piece of secret evidence that could've corroborated Brendan Dassey's story by feeding it to him himself." "Hey, Brendan, you need to use the bathroom or anything?" "You sure?" " You need anything else?" " Mm-mm." "Sandwich or anything?" "Did you get your soda?" " Yeah." " OK, we'll be in in about two minutes, OK?" " I got a question, though." " Sure." " How long is this gonna take?" " It shouldn't take a whole lot longer." " You think I can get there before 1:29?" " Um... probably not." "What's at 1:29?" "Well, I have a project due in 6th hour." "OK." "We'll worry about that later, OK?" "All right." " I'll be back in a few minutes, OK?" " OK." "Another troubling aspect was the fact that Brendan didn't really understand the precariousness of his own position." "He has no understanding that he's not going to be released from custody at this point." "He has just admitted to really awful crimes." "You know, obviously, that we're police officers, OK?" "And because of what you told us..." "we're gonna have to arrest you." "Did you kind of figure that... was coming?" "For what you did?" "We can't let you go right now." "Is it only for one day or...?" "We don't know that at this time." "But let me tell you something, Brendan, you did the right thing, OK?" "By being honest, you can at least sleep at night now." "'Cause I'm sure you've had some difficulty with that." "So you did the right thing here by telling us what happened, OK?" "Just remember that in the future." "OK?" "You need to be honest." "This dramatic press conference that "children should not listen to this, it's so terrible to hear," was pure fantasy." "Looking at that press conference, you would've expected that that young boy who was holding this in for months and was just... had to unburden himself with this terrible experience that he had was emotionally upset and came out with this whole long story," "when in fact there's not an iota of emotion expressed by the guy." "He never cries." "He's not upset at all." "He's not coming out with any narrative." "It's one-sentence or one-word responses to their questions the entire way." "What'd happen if his story's different?" "What do you mean?" "Like, if his story's, like, different, like I never did nothing or something." "Did you?" "Huh?" "Not really." "What do you mean "not really"?" "They got to my head." "It's not that there was a lack of physical evidence to corroborate Brendan, it's that there was a wealth of physical evidence to disprove the statements attributed to him." "You know, he describes this horrible, bloody episode of stabbing and..." "and throat-slitting on a bed while this woman supposedly is handcuffed to the bed." "There's no blood." "There's no blood on the mattress." "There's no blood on the sheets." "There's no blood on the floor." "There's no blood on the wall." "There's no blood." "Didn't happen." "Brendan?" "My name is Dennis Jacobs." "I'm a detective with Manitowoc County." "Do you have any weapons or anything on you?" "Just some stuff that I can give to my mom, like a CD player." "That wouldn't be a weapon, though." "You have like a little pocket knife, anything like that?" " No." " Can you stand up?" "I just want to pat you down real quick, just to make sure." "Oh, that's nothing that's gonna hurt me." "OK." "That's fine." "Brendan's young, had no prior experience with the police, and he's not a bright kid." "He's a soft, quiet kid who is easily pushed around, whether you mean to push him around or not." "He was an easy mark." "And understand that Brendan is potentially a crucial defense witness." "Because he's supposedly there at this bonfire that night." "If you can turn him from a defense witness into a prosecution witness, it's a twofer... if you're the police." "If he testifies against Steven, he'll get 20 years plus parole." "And if he doesn't, he'll get life without parole."