"This programme contains some scenes some viewers may find upsetting" "GUNFIRE" "At least 12 people have been killed in Paris after masked gunmen entered the offices of a satirical magazine..." "It was a massacre." "The dead and injured are still being counted as I speak..." "POLICE SIREN" "IN FRENCH:" "This bloodbath began with the execution of eight journalists from a magazine that often satirised religions, including, fatally, Islam." "It's a very deep principle that you can say what you think, and it's even a duty, I would say." "It's a duty because otherwise, if you are afraid, you're a slave." "Two of the gunmen are said to have received military training in Yemen, only to use it against the country where they were born and raised." "SIRENS WAIL" "GUNFIRE" "What happened here in Paris raises an obvious question - why is it that some Muslims feel justified in killing their fellow citizens in the name of Islam?" "Tonight, a group of British Muslims say they believe they have an answer, which is that an extreme but nonviolent ideology helps push Muslims into the arms of violent extremists." "We have to pinpoint where the cancer is and it is this type of Islam, this puritanical Islam, that is the problem here." "An interpretation of Islam which seems unable to coexist with core Western values, and is growing." "CALL TO PRAYER" "All praise and glory and thanks belong to Allah." "As a young man, Manwar Ali left Britain to answer the call to jihad." "He joined the mujahedeen to fight the Russians in Afghanistan." "He's long since renounced violence." "I began to understand who I am." "Am I this jihadi who wants to close one's eyes and not listen to other people's opinions and carry on saying," ""No, I want to die a martyr for the sake of God, fighting for justice"?" "What justice, then?" "Today, we hope to discuss the topic of anger..." "Today, Manwar Ali spends much of his time trying to defuse the ideology he once embraced." "What is the mindset that, in your view, connects nonviolent but extreme views with violence and extreme actions?" "There are lots of parameters one should take into account but if we were to boil it down under a broad heading, it will be this "us and them" thinking." "It cultivates and nurtures a sense of understanding and feeling which looks down upon our separates, the others, as not as worthy, as honourable." " The others being believers from non-believers?" " From non-believers." " The world divided into..." " Between two groups, yes." "That's, in your view, the first step along the road to ultimately violent extremism?" "Yes." "The "us and them" is the first step." "MUSIC:" "Happy by Pharrell Williams" "This "them and us" divide is not just between Muslim extremists and non-Muslims." "The heart of this divide lies within Islam itself." "# Like I don't care, baby, by the way... #" "Last summer, a group of British Muslims posted this video on YouTube." "# If you feel like a room without a roof" "# Because I'm happy... #" "So far it's attracted over two million views." "What message were you trying to send?" "For me, initially it was just a bit of fun and also a good opportunity to show Muslims in a positive light." "# Because I'm happy" "# Clap along if you know what happiness is to you... #" "It turned into something quite... ..troubling, in the sense that the backlash was absolutely..." "..over the top, to say the least." "I'm sure you've all seen it." "#happymuslims by the anonymous group Honesty Policy." "But let's be honest, there isn't anything honest about their policy." "Something that started very innocent turned into... ..part of a broader fight against what I call puritanical Islam." "The Happy Muslim video exposed a widening rift between those British Muslims who want an Islam that's open and tolerant and those who don't." "If you look beyond the dancing, the music and the downright ridiculous attempt of trying to look cool, all you have is a bad PR stunt to promote integration and for us to embrace the British culture." "# Yeah!" "# I should probably warn you, I'll be just fine... #" "I thought it was hilarious." "I loved it." "It was just such a happy video, which was the whole point of the video, it was meant to be a happy video!" "Sara Khan is a Muslim who runs an anti-extremism organisation called Inspire." "The reaction" " I expected it." "I fully expected that reaction, that there would be some miserable people who couldn't rejoice in the fact that these are ordinary Muslims enjoying one of 2014's biggest pop songs." " # Happy" " Bring me down, can't you... #" "Those Muslims unhappy at the Happy Muslims video appear to want separation, not simply from non-Muslims, but also from what they regard as the wrong kind of Muslim." "To see our sisters behaving in such an obscene manner discredits us all." "# If that's what you want to do. #" "I understand that the Home Office believe a worryingly high number of British Muslims do not subscribe to core British values like freedom of expression, equality and tolerance of other faiths, and that none of the initiatives aimed at improving integration," "either from this Government or the last, have had any significant impact." "The fear is that this will lead to more of what ministers describe as "nonviolent extremism"." "There is undoubtedly a thread that binds the kind of extremism that promotes intolerance, hatred and a sense of superiority over others to the actions of those who want to impose their values on us through violence." "Is nonviolent extremism the root cause of the growing threat to national security posed by British jihadists?" "And if it is, what's the solution?" "For some time, clerics whom the Government say promote an extreme but nonviolent interpretation of Islam have claimed their interpretation is shared by most Muslims in the West." "..supports the death penalty." "How many of you agree that the punishments described in the Koran, whether it is death, whether it is stoning for adultery, whatever it is, that is the best punishment ever possible for humankind?" "Who agrees with that?" "Part of being a non-Muslim is that they are liars, usually - usually." "To say things like "Have a happy New Year", a good new year, give out greeting cards, this is not allowed for Muslims to do." "In the West, unfortunately, because women, they were brought up to be independent, in fact, this equality between the two genders is a very evil thing." "British Muslims seeking to counter this interpretation of Islam insist the vast majority of British Muslims do not share it." "But they do acknowledge it is growing." "Ten years ago, nonviolent extremism was very much a fringe element." "What we have now is the majority of Muslims aren't extreme, but that fringe movement, that body, is a lot bigger." "Not only that, it has allowed a voice." "I see how the actions of these extremes are creating" "Islamophobia in this country, so I feel very passionate in wanting to make sure that the children that I raise are not being drawn into an intolerant, dehumanised interpretation of Islam, which currently is starting to become more and more mainstream." "Last summer in Birmingham, two separate official inquiries found there'd been an attempt to inculcate a "them and us" mindset into Muslim children at up to 16 state schools." "The centre of this plot was Park View Educational Trust." "This is what one of the trust's directors thought of non-Muslim women." "Evidence was found in the schools of homophobia, a hardline curriculum, demonisation of other faiths, anti-Western and especially anti-Jewish attitudes and contempt for the armed forces." "What I found was intolerance." "There was a real concern that because they were being taught to be unquestioning, that they would be more vulnerable in the future to pernicious influences such as people trying to radicalise them into a particular strand of violent extremism." "The Muslim Council of Britain says it's the most representative body of Islam in Britain today and yet, even this mainstream body dismissed most of the findings of the two Birmingham inquiries not as evidence of extremist views but simply of conservative Muslim practices." "I mean, this was incredibly bigoted interpretations of Islam or just bigotry generally." "What they also tried to do was suggest that by attacking these conservative Muslim practices, that this is somehow Islamophobic." "I find that narrative very troubling." "The MCB declined to be interviewed but one of its major affiliates did agree." "Do you think it is reasonable to describe what was found there as extremism?" "No, I don't think it is." "If it is going to be inclined, then yes, it will be inclining towards conservative Islam." "I think extremism remains a word which is abstract in terms of its definition." "Therefore, it can easily be interpreted by one person to be extremist, whereas others disagree." "This cleric fits the Government's definition of a nonviolent extremist." "Haitham Haddad is also regarded by many Muslims here as a great scholar." "He's a star of the Islamic TV circuit, which he uses to promote his worldview." "Our ultimate aim as Muslims is to have, to see," "Islam spreading all over the world and to see the word of Allah dominant on the whole globe." "To achieve this, Haitham Haddad urges Muslims in the West to exploit the freedom of Parliamentary democracies run by what he calls the kuffar, or unbelievers, so that one day they can replace democracy with theocracy." "Although Haitham Haddad does not promote violence against the UK, he does believe that in an Islamic State, Muslims who abandon" "Islam should be executed." "Apostasy, OK, deserves, once the conditions are met, deserves capital punishment in an Islamic State." "I can say this openly." "I'm not here to hide it, OK?" "When a person says apostates should be killed, but they shouldn't be killed here, they should be killed in a State, they are saying that is how I believe the country should practice it's law." "Whether it's sanctioned by due process is surely not the point." "The point is it's abhorrent in any event?" "But that is making the assumption that as humans we all have the same" " definitions and the same arbitrary acceptances..." " Yes." "..which we don't." "Apostasy killing is the height, the pinnacle of irrationality." "When you train or when you propagate, when you teach young Muslims that part of their faith is to accept irrationality," "is to accept heinous crimes, such as apostasy killing, then it all goes." "What nonviolent extremists are very good at doing is that they take people by the hand and they take them to the front door." "And what they do at the front door is, violent extremists open that door, so ISIS then opens up that door." "And then, that's why you're seeing so many young people leave this country to join IS." "There is a connection there." "Where are you from?" "I'm from Britain." "Why are you here?" "I'm here for jihad." "The number of British Muslims who've gone to fight in Syria is still rising." "The latest estimate is 600." "Forget everyone." "Read the Koran." "Read the book of Allah, the instruction of life and you will find out what is jihad." "What does the West have to offer you?" "What does that filthy, despicable country have to offer you?" "Nothing." "Violent extremists share a prophetic dream with nonviolent extremists that, one day, the entire world will be organised around one faith," "Islam, and subject to holy law, their version of the Sharia, enforced by punishments most people would regard as barbaric." "We, as British Muslims, we became part of the society, so they have to cater for us." "Where nonviolent extremists like Haitham Haddad say they depart from Islamic State and Al-Qaeda, is over their indiscriminate attacks on civilians." "He also pleaded for the life of British aid worker, Alan Henning." "Haitham Haddad declined to be interviewed." "I'm told, however, that he's just the kind of preacher whose comments could be banned under new powers which the Conservatives say they'll introduce if they are re-elected." "I want to see new banning orders for extremist groups that fall short of the existing laws relating to terrorism." "I want to see new civil powers to target extremists who stay just within the law but still spread poisonous hatred." "Would you define calling democracy "filthy" as nonviolent extremism?" "No, I think that's...that's a view." "A person can have a view." "If they want to have a view that it's filthy, that's up to them." "It doesn't mean they are extremists." "I mean...maybe a Communist might consider democracy extreme..." "That is not extremist, in my view." "We should be welcoming freedom of speech." "We should be welcoming debate." "Yesterday, David Cameron marched with nearly four million French citizens to defend the right to freedom of expression." "Everyone in Britain will want to stand with the French government and with the French people at this time." "We must never allow the values that we hold dear of democracy, of freedom of speech, to be damaged by these terrorists." "I wanted to ask the Home Secretary if she saw any contradiction between the Government's resolute support in France for free speech, including the right to offend, and her plans to ban Islamists here in Britain from making offensive comments." "She declined to be interviewed, but a Conservative Party spokesman explained that her proposed Banning Orders weren't aimed at comments simply because they were offensive, they would have to show harm." "For example, by spreading hatred and fear." "We are worried that this will become a tool which will be used by government to silence people who oppose it and, therefore, it may be used in an undemocratic way to govern people's ideas." "One of the Home Secretary's measures for dealing with nonviolent extremism will, it seems, prevent some people from speaking or publishing, not necessarily because they were going to break the law, but because what they say is offensive." "Do you think that's the way to deal with this problem, or not?" "I think in the short-term, yes." "But long-term, no." "Because what that does, that creates a martyr." "The claim that Muslims are forever oppressed by the West has long been asserted by nonviolent activists, disdainful of Western values." "It's a grievance narrative which seems to seduce some Muslim students." "This was a talk I attended at the Islamic Society of one university in London." "If you justify segregation of Islam - oh, we can't accept that, that's discrimination." "The Speakers argued passionately that Islam was being criminalised in the West." "The challenges that they are facing, how homes and how people's lives have been ruined." "Sara Khan says this grievance narrative is bogus." "Muslims in this country are equal citizens." "We are given the freedom to practise our faith freely." "We enjoy living in a country that respects human rights, equality laws, and a democracy." "I think that narrative is very unhelpful and it feeds into those who divide the world into an "us and them" narrative." "Welcome to Questions." "I'm your host, Dilwar Hussain." "As an occasional TV host and former President of the Islamic Society of Britain," "Dilwar Hussain has been trying to promote a British expression of Islam as much at home in Britain as Yorkshire pudding, as the Society puts it." "Why is this sense of victimhood, this, as it's sometimes called, grievance narrative, why is that dangerous, in your view?" "I think it's dangerous because it leads us into a very defensive posture." "It leads us into a position where we feel that we are against everybody else, or everybody else is against us." "Some young, naive, maybe stupid person, will say that the best way to fight back is actually to attack." "The best form of defence is attack." "The only reason we have killed this man today is because Muslims are dying daily by British soldiers." "In 2013, in London, Michael Adebolajo fought back by almost beheading a fellow citizen, Lee Rigby, because he was a soldier." "I apologise that women had to witness this today, but in our land, our women have to see the same." "Like last week's attacks in Paris, Adebolajo justified cold-blooded murder by claiming that he was defending his faith and avenging Western oppression." "So what if we want to live by the sharia in Muslim lands?" "It's dishonest and dangerous to blame foreign policy and it's not helpful for the Muslim community." "We have to pinpoint where the problem is, where the cancer is, and it is this type of Islam, this puritanical Islam which is the problem here." "This conviction that foreign policy is the root cause of radicalisation shows little sign of weakening." "And victimhood is the mission statement of the Islamic satellite station that is most popular with British Muslims." "Every hour of every day, the Islam Channel repeats its slogan..." "Having that played, what, 50 times a day or so, is highly problematic because all that does is promote a victimhood mentality that Muslims are oppressed, Muslims are experiencing Islamophobia, we're under siege, we're oppressed." "It's a very unhelpful narrative." "This is said to us by other British Muslims, that this mission statement helps, as it were, keep young Muslims angry." "I don't agree with that." "I don't accept that because we are an international broadcaster and we do broadcast in 132 countries." "In some countries, we have way more viewers than we have in the UK." "I understand that." "Do you think British Muslims are oppressed?" " No, I don't think they are." " Do you think they are voiceless?" "I don't think so." "That's what we are trying..." "Is it helpful to send a message to British Muslims that that is what they are?" "Well, as I said, we are an international broadcaster and" "I do believe that there are so many oppressors around in the world..." " That may be." " ..and there are so many oppressed people." "We've heard from Muslims tonight who believe that, ultimately, there is only one way to counter the bigotry and the ideology that's taken root here, and that is not by banning comments that are offensive to Western sensibilities," "but by forging a new British version of Islam to create a common life between Muslims and non-Muslims." "BIG BEN CHIMES" "Salaam alaikum." "This is Sami Yusuf and you're watching British Muslim TV." "One British Muslim who has taken up this challenge is a pharmacist in Wakefield turned TV entrepreneur." "Come this way." " Welcome to British Muslim TV." " Very pleased to be here." "British Muslim TV was launched last summer." "Why British Muslim TV?" " British Muslim TV?" " BRITISH Muslim TV?" "Well, it fits quite well with one of the primary objectives of what we are trying to do, to give the community the narrative to be confidently Muslim, comfortably British." "OK." "All right..." " I get into trouble for these things." " From whom?" " My staff." "If you have a look at the drawer down there, they've hidden away..." "..all my lovely stuff." "Goodness me!" "But it's only half a joke." "There is a serious side to this?" " There is." " Which is?" "It's just about ensuring people understand that we are here as BRITISH Muslim TV." "The channel's mission statement is irrepressibly upbeat " ""Confidently Muslim, comfortably British", it says." "So, welcome to the control room." "Do you think a section of the Muslim community has been signalling that they're not comfortably British?" "It's a reality." "I don't think it's a matter of anyone signalling." "There are parts of the community that themselves say you can't be British and Muslim." ""You're only Muslim and your identity is focused just around Islam."" "The second objective after our "Confidently Muslim, comfortably British"" "is to be completely non-sectarian, and one of the policies we have is bigotry has to stay at the door." "The battle for a recognisably British interpretation of Islam disentangled from the violent schisms of the Islamic world is now under way." "It is something that we aspire to." "It's something we will work towards and we'll see where we go but I think it would be about openness as opposed to rigidity and closedness." "Last week's attack on the French satirical magazine Charlie Hebdo was a symptom of that closed mindset, fundamentally at odds with the most fundamental of democratic values, the right to free expression." "This is a very deep principle that you can say what you think and it is even a duty, I would say." "It's a duty because otherwise, if you're afraid, you are a slave." "Cartoons like this are what 17 people died for, an edition spoof-edited by the Prophet Mohammed joking that if readers didn't die laughing, they'd get 100 lashes." "Charlie Hebdo regularly poked fun at all faiths, but in Britain, the Prophet is never satirised, partly out of deference to Muslim sensibilities, but also because of fear of the consequences." "One can trace back violent extremism to what I would call toxic theology, where we have all that is right and good and truth on one side, and on the other side, we have all that is evil and all that is false." "Because when you separate the world in these kind of terms, you then create the other and when you do that, you are actually dehumanising the other." "The British Muslim known as "Jihad John" is the lead executioner in the bloodbath that's about to happen." "He is the ultimate manifestation of a world dehumanised and divided into "us" and "them."" "Today, we are slaughtering the soldiers of Bashar, and tomorrow, we'll be slaughtering your soldiers." "And with Allah's permission, we will break this final and last crusade and Islamic State will soon, like your puppet David Cameron said, will begin to slaughter your people on your streets." "The solution to extremism from Muslims lies with the Muslims." "Obviously, because it's our faith that needs to be moderated or..." "..channelled, devised in such a way which is constructive and never contributes to harm or injustice." "This battle within Islam has been generations in the making." "We are up against a well-funded machine that has a greater scope, a greater access to the media, has a louder voice, and unfortunately, the most ignorant members of our community have the loudest voices." "Might Paris be the trigger for the depth of soul-searching within Islam we have witnessed on this programme?" "And will it be Islam's tolerant interpretation that ultimately prevails?" "Well, that's the million-dollar question." "I think extremism will inevitably be wiped out but I think that battle is just a long and it's a hard one that's going to require blood, sweat and tears, unfortunately." "Meanwhile, after Paris, with warnings of mass casualty attacks here, we in Britain brace for more roll calls of the innocent."