"Lenny McLean was the toughest man in Britain." "He was a very dangerous man." "If you can imagine a pot of boiling water and it's always simmering, it's ready to boil." "The film you are about to see shows an incredibly violent fight, which, for some at least, is entertaining." "I've heard stories that he would go up the Camden Palace and challenge black belts in this and that and he just goes out and just knocks them completely spark out." "He is like a dog, he either gets bitten and rolls over and dies, or he is going to come back and bite you." "Lenny was the man who came back and bit you and bit you hard." "If you're losing your temper, you're capable of doing anything, you're capable of murder really." "There is a lot of negative stuff said about him." "If you never met him you would have a certain way you would think about him and the main mission with the film would be to let people know that there's a different side to my dad that you probably ain't read or seen on YouTube." "I mean, he was extremely, extremely funny, quick-witted one-liners, you know, and you would probably take an instant like to him." "The physical abuse and the drinking turned him into a monster really." "But I think there is something more than just the abuse and the alcohol." "I think there's something deeper, I think there's something that we've not touched on." " Charlie?" " Yeah?" "Probably I've boxed as an amateur and done some amateur fights when I was a kid and I do box and I do love going to the boxing gym and training, but fight..." "Not really, I don't think it really was..." "I didn't really..." "I like fight, I like sparring, I like doing the competitive side of it, but fighting, no." "I've got a temper." "If someone upsets me, I've got a slightly bad temper, yeah, and I had a problem last year and I went to prison for having a fight with somebody and I was charged with GBH Section 18." "In the end, I pleaded guilty to a lesser charge of ABH, but I still went to prison for it." "Going to prison was an eye-opener." "I definitely don't want to go back there." "So I need to know the truth why my dad become such a violent person." "I mean, you've taken a lot of punishment you've dished it out." "What's the worst thing you've ever done to anyone?" "Er, in one of the bare knuckle fights, I bit a guy's nose off." "Probably the first time I see something like that was down when we had the caravan." "All the kids down the caravan used to drive on these like little motorbikes, scramblers, rev-and-gos, and I used to let all the kids go on my one and one day a girl came out, and she was a little bit older than us," "I was about eight or nine and she was about 15 and she wanted to go on my bike and I said, "Look, you've got to wait your turn."" "Anyway, she's pushed me off the bike and tried to get on the bike and me and her started to have like a set to, like, a fight." "Her dad come out the caravan and tried to hit me and said, "You want a fight, you fight me."" "Dad's come out the caravan and said, "No, if you want a fight, you fight me,"" "and then me old man just sort of let go, I've never seen anything like it." "Absolutely just annihilated the geezer, just smashed him absolutely to pieces." "And the whole place was just silent." "And as he stood up, and the man was unconscious on the floor, and he stared at me and pointed a finger at me and said, "See what you have done now,"" "and I was sort of frightened to get told off and he said," ""Your tea's cold," and walked indoors like there's nothing had happened." "It just sort of was just like a normal day of someone going to work in the post office or a builder and it was, it didn't affect him." "And after that, he just went in the caravan and shut the door and that was the end of that." "Growing up in post-war Britain in the late '40s, early '50s, there was nothing about, no money." "In the East End, the doors was open, kids running around outside." "I know you don't see a lot of it now, but there used to be stray dogs running around, food where they have been pregnant and people throwing buckets of water over them, you know, if someone knocks on your door for sugar or milk or, you know," "you would give it to them." "Look, mate, you're on camera." "You're on camera, they're filming you." "Oh, right." "What have you done wrong?" "Everything." "Playing on dumps, bomb sites, burnt-out buildings, you know, that's what you used to do." "I suppose everything seemed happy at the time, but no one really knew what was going on behind closed doors." "No." "Well, uh..." "Right." "This is Geffrye Court in Hoxton." "My dad was born here in 1949." "This is where my dad grew up with his brothers and sisters," "Boo, Kruger, Barry and Linda and the Walls, John-John, Sue, Bill Boy, Kenny Wall and Puff." "His real dad died in his 20s." "And then my nan remarried to Jim Irwin when my dad was about four, and I suppose the physical abuse started around that time." "My stepfather, he broke my legs when I was five, broke my jaw when I was six, broke all my ribs when I was seven, bashed me right up until I was 12." "Let me tell you how bad the abuse was." "Not only was it physical, it was mental." "They would be hit with belts, my dad said sometimes he'd be home from school, be put straight to bed with no dinner, and all his cousins and friends would be playing outside and it would be light out, nice sunny day in July." "I mean, the abuse was so bad, that in the summer, they wore long trousers and long tops to help cover the broken bones and the bruises." "And they lived over in here, this block here." "His stepfather used to bash him up and say, "I'm the Guv'nor."" "So that would be ringing in my dad's ears throughout his teens and his adult life." "And then what happens, hate builds up inside you and you become..." "You hate the world." "The turning point was one cold winter." "It was thick snow outside and Kruger had wet the bed." "He was only a baby and Jim had really laid into him, really, really severely hurt him, and my dad picked him up and took him in a, like a homemade go-kart, dragged it through the snow, went round to Nanny Campion's house" "and she just weren't having it, so she got hold of Jimmy Spinks." "Jimmy Spinks, that was his uncle," "Jimmy Spinks was the Guv'nor of Hoxton at that time and he used to mind all the corner betters, all the bookies on the corners that used to bet and, you know, he was a person that you just didn't mess with," "you know, if you went to have a fight with him you had to turn up with 10 people." "Jimmy Spinks, he went round there with a cutthroat razor," "Nanny Campion, she went round there with the old fashioned big glass ashtrays and they smashed the fuck out of him." "And then he just disappeared for two years." "My dad's relationship to Jimmy Spinks, he was probably like a father figure to him really." "Everyone looked up to him and I think he aspired to be like him." "Because that's the hero figures you grew up with in the East End, you grew up with local villains or hard men and, you know, that's the way they wanted to be in them days." "Back in the '50s and '60s, in the East End, it was normal to see grown men have a hand to hand fight in the street if they had some dispute." "And it was a cultural thing." "And to be tough meant people sort of left you alone." "So Lenny became tough." "His first paid fight was around the age of about nine or 10 here in Geffrye Court." "There was a bigger kid picking on one of his sisters and his mum said, "You better go down there, you better deal with that boy," ""and if you do, I'll give you some money to go and buy some cream cakes."" "And I don't think he needed persuading to have a cream cake because he did like a cream cake." "Within a flash, he went down there, smashed the bully up, come back, and said where's his cream bun?" "She went, "I've to go to the shop and get it."" "He said, "Well, how long are you going to be" ""because I'm going to go bash someone else up." "I want two cream buns."" "She went, "No, Len, only the one."" "I think he probably had a flavour for it then." "Obviously, when my dad come out of Borstal, things had changed for him physically, you know." "Two years in a young man's life, changes in your body takes, it's unbelievable, so when he come out of prison and see Jim Irwin and their first altercation, and my dad punched him," "he went green and then he knew that abuse would stop there and then." "I was going to give him a strong talking to once, but on my mother's death bed, she promised me, you know, "Please, please, don't have a go at him,"" "and I promised her I would never have a go at him." "And I found out about two weeks ago, he'd died." "And I don't drink, I ain't drunk for 20 years," "I had a shandy that night." "Hi, Boo, you all right?" "Yeah." "How's Kruger?" "No, I ain't rushing you for the interview, no." "No, really, I ain't really." "No, look, whenever you're ready." "Obviously, I'm making sure Kruger is all right first because obviously it seemed like he was up for it." "Um..." "Oh, all right, OK." "Well, let me know." "OK." "All right then." "I'll put it in the budget, don't worry." "All right." "Send him my love, then, yeah?" "All right." "I'll call you later." "I love you." "Bye, bye." "We were supposed to film Kruger and Boo today, my dad's brothers and sisters, just, er, but it's been pretty hard to try and get people to talk on camera, especially his family." "They don't want to do it, so." "Knock on the door and see if she's in." "Is there anyone in, Joe?" "Nan?" "You all right, where are you going, Guv?" "Where is the dog?" "Come in then, come in." "How are you, Lyns, are you all right?" "I'm fine, shut the door, Joe." "Lenny got married at the age of 19 and my mum was 17." "My mum, she can remember walking up the street and she could actually see my dad's mattress on the street, so she go to Rose, "What's that?" She goes, "Oh, it's Lenny's mattress."" "She went, "Why'd you throw the mattress out?"" "She went, "Well, I ain't having him back, Val, you've got to have him."" "She said like, looked round and thought, "Let's see what sort of life I'm in for then" ""if his mum's trying to get rid of him."" "Here's Caliban Towers here." "I think we used to live on the 13th floor." "When they was younger, my mum and dad used to have, because they were probably the first one, couple to have a flat, so they used to have a lot of house parties up there and they used to get pissed" "and what him and his cousins used to do is hang off the top, 13th floor by their fingers, and see who could hang there the longest without pulling up, who would get tired and look." "So can you imagine hanging up there on the 13th floor like that, freezing cold, drunk, and see who could stay the longest." "Now, if you slipped or made one move you're dead." "They play PlayStation 4s now." "Years ago, you used to play hang off the balcony on the 13th floor." "Drinking, he probably thought was a good medication to help him forget." "But what he didn't realise, drinking was the worst thing for him." "This is the Lion and Lamb pub." "He literally drove them mental in there." "He had so many fights here they had a picture of him behind the bar," ""Please do not upset this man."" "I mean, this is the pub that he used to do his party trick as well." "Remember the old glass tankards?" "He used to line them up across the bar, get pissed and with the palm of his hand he would smash every single one down in one go." "His hand, mum used to come and his hand would be absolutely cut to pieces." "My mum said that the pub used to be packed, she said you would order a drink at the bar and everyone would be on edge and everyone would wait for him to go to the toilet, and as soon as he walked in the toilet, the whole pub would empty out," "so there would just be her and him and the band." "I think even the barman left." "And so at the end of the night, he'd end up bashing the band up drunk." "People were literally like, "Shut your doors,"" "and everyone would sort of go inside and he would be like a raging bull in the street." "In them days, people didn't report it to the police, did they?" "Just sort of, these lots knew him anyway because sometimes they would ring them up at night and say," ""Look, we've got Lenny here." ""We've nicked him for fighting again and we'll release him in the morning."" "But you didn't have to go through the courts." "They'd just nick you and leave you in the cell overnight and let you go in the morning and that's how it was in them days." "Probably the final straw was he was out with his mate Jimmy Briggs." "Well, we're actually in the Spread Eagle now and it's quite mad because this is where he had his last drink." "Obviously this is where he nearly killed a man or he did kill a man." "He'd been out drinking all day with his friend Jimmy Briggs and he'd pulled a bird." "My dad was sitting there, the girl was sitting there, and then my dad said, "Come on, we'll go somewhere else."" "Jimmy says, "No, no, I am going to stay with this bird."" "So the bird turns round to my dad and says, "You heard what he said." "Fuck off."" "My dad told Jimmy to tell her to shut up or he would put her over his knee and smack her arse and then Jimmy said, "Don't fucking speak to her like that, we'll fucking go outside."" "And that's what happened." "They walked outside." "And he said to him, "Come on then, I'm the fucking guv'nor."" "As soon as he said that to my dad, his back would go up." "He's looking at him thinking," ""What I've been through, you cunt, and you think you are the guv'nor?"" "And he would turn into summat evil." "I think Jimmy threw the first punch and then my old man kept punching and punching and punching, till he couldn't punch any more and broke both his hands on his face," "which is quite fucking, that should be brutal enough, and when he couldn't use his hands no more, he used his teeth, and he tried to bite his wind pipe out." "But as he is biting him, he's fucking consuming the flesh and he killed him, Jimmy Briggs was dead." "They brought him back to life on the operating theatre and I can remember my dad coming up and coughing the human flesh and I could hear my mum screaming and saying, "Len, Len," ""that is human flesh you are coughing up and spitting up," ""what have you done, what have you done?"" "And obviously, he's gone to bed, woke up the next day, heard of what happened, and he then decided that enough was enough, you know, he stopped drinking." "What do I think about that story?" "Am I horrified about it?" "No, not really, I am not horrified at all." "If you want my honest opinion, you know, what do you expect?" "I mean, you expect to get a hiding, not to get your fucking," "throat bit out, but, you know, that's how we done things in them days in London." "Street fighting all the pubs round in Hoxton." "99% of the time, the aggravation, he caused it." "And then, all of a sudden, I suppose, he thought it could work in his favour." "So basically, you would go and get kids starting trouble in all the pubs, then all of a sudden Lenny would come in and give them a back hander and chuck them out, but really, it was him causing the trouble." "So he would go to all the pubs in Hoxton and say," ""Look," he said, "You're getting quite a bad element in here,"" "he said, "Why don't I do this?" He said, "Every Friday I'll come down," ""pick some wages up, all you got to do is say," ""'Lenny is minding the door here'," and he said, "All the trouble will stop."" "I think he thought, you know, "This ain't a bad way to make a living, easy money." ""I ain't got to get up at, you know, do a nine-to-five." ""I can just go in the pubs, take money off the publicans," ""eat my dinner in there and go home."" "And that's how I suppose the door work started." "Anyone who grew up in Hoxton knew him from an early age." "He had a reputation when he was 13 or 14 years old as the best fighter, so, you know not to mess with Lenny because they know anyone mucks about, you know, he will just deal with it in a severe and extremely violent way." "He was just in there, bang, done, next." "And if he took a couple he'd probably didn't even feel it, cos he was so in the zone at the time, innit." "You would see people's faces change when they give it their best shot" " and he didn't even notice it yeah, yeah." " Yeah." "It's always going to be a worry, innit." "And these pubs were frequented by teams of gangsters and villains and armed robbers." "London was having robberies that were prolific." "My father was involved in that sort of fraternity and I can remember these guys and they looked like they was out of films." "You know, they pull up in lovely cars and the old rollnecks on, but they were seriously, seriously heavy villains who, who, you know, they used shotguns, they went and jumped over the pavement as they say, you know what I mean?" "They robbed, they robbed banks." "If there was a dispute, more than likely someone would come back with a shotgun, and Lenny had to be amongst these men." "So you can imagine, you can't be some fleeting wallflower, you got to be the toughest man there is." "But afterwards, we was like job's done, it's finished, shook their hands, made sure they were all right, get them back." "He would go to work being extremely violent and come home and be extremely loving." "Two different sides." "He'd have his nice, stable family life and us as kids, we just see him as Uncle Len, but when he was out in the real world, you know, his life was at risk." "I mean, people did pull shooters on him and they shot him." "We're in the Barbican where Jovi's nightclub used to be." "I mean, it was actually here," "Jovi's was here, this is how it was, this is the entrance and it was a glass entrance, the same as it is today, obviously it's a Pret a Manger now." "I think the night he got shot, Monday to Thursday, it wasn't really busy, so he would do the door on his own, but weekends he would get his mate Billy Sullivan to help him and two fellas on a motorbike drove past and let a double-barrelled shotgun off." "Billy Sullivan's fainted, all the girls have gone rushing to him, but me old man run outside the nightclub, seen the motorbike coming past, he chased them up the road and kicked the back of the wheel and the wheel of the motorbike wobbled" "and he said, "He nearly, nearly fell." He said, "If they would have fell,"" "he said, "I would have got them."" "So he's gone back inside, but as he's gone back in, all the staff and all the girls are, "Are you all right, Bill?" "You all right?" ""I think he's been shot."" "And he was sitting there and as he looked round, he could feel all his back of his legs soaked, you know, like," "I suppose like when you wet yourself, but just covered in blood." "So they rung an ambulance and said, "Len, it's gonna be five minutes."" "So he said, "Five fucking minutes?" "I'm going to bleed to fucking death here," ""so I'll fucking walk over there."" "They went, "No, you can't walk, we will get a cab."" "So a cab driver has pulled up and he went, "Take me to Bart's."" "He said, "You ain't fucking getting in my cab you're covered in claret."" "He said, "I've just been fucking shot, take me to Bart's!"" "Anyway, they've took him to Bart's, walked in there, there was a porter half asleep at the counter like that, so he's walked in and went, "Excuse me, sir." He went, "Yes."" "He went, "You ain't got anything for two arseholes, have you?"" "And the geezer's seen the fucking hole like that in the back of his trousers, blood pouring down the back of his legs, he's gone, "Aah."" "You know, and I said to him, "Oh, I bet you regret that night being shot." ""I bet you wish you had never went to work" ""that night." He said, "No, not really,"" "he said, "Because it helped me sell loads of books."" "But I can remember from that day onwards, as soon as he went back to work like, I would stay awake most nights waiting for him to come in and hear the door shut and then I would go to sleep," "and that went on for years and years and years and years." "You know, so it does affect you, it affects the family." "Pugilist is a mixture of a Greek and Latin word meaning to fight with fist." "Boxing is to clench the fist holding the fingers and a thumb into a box." "Ancient Greeks believed fist fighting was one of the games played by the gods on Olympus." "Thus, it became part of the Olympic Games." "In Roman times, the sport began to thrive." "Duels to the death were the norm." "From the Victorian era, the bare knuckle disappeared with the onset of the Queensbury Rules." "The 10 count, gloves on hands, referees." "People got disinterested." "It was only in the 1970's that there was resurgence in interest." "Using a clenched fist is one of the earliest forms of aggression." "It's as old as running and hunting, it's as old as mankind itself." "No weapon at hand, the fist is the best weapon we have." "Come on!" "Very different from boxing, you have to hit the man with the outside of your fist so you don't break your hand." "And you must control your adrenaline." "In the ring, it's an art form, it's a science, and to be a champion boxer you have to be trained from childhood." "Lenny never had that kind of training." "The first bare knuckle champion was James Figg in 1790." "Other famous champions were Jack Broughton, Tom Cribb," "Tom Spring, Jim Wall, Jem Mace." "There are statues in pubs all over the country named after these fighters." "They were celebrated by common folk, kings and queens." "You could go to a bare-knuckle fight nowadays." "I mean, all these guys, they look raw, they look tough, they look big." "But they haven't got the tenacity of a Lenny McLean." "They break a finger and they sit down and they are breathing heavy and they sit down." "I mean, Lenny would fracture a hand, break his wrist, you wouldn't even know." "It was on the street in his prime," "Lenny could have knocked out Mike Tyson, Klitschko, any of them, on the cobbles, that is, because he was fast, precise, strong and he could take a terrible hiding, you see." "That's where Lenny's strength lay." "He took so much punishment as a kid." "These kids today are proud of having 10 or 20, maybe even 30 fights on their card." "Lenny McLean had 2,000 up and down the country." "But the reality of this is those lads are getting hurt after one or two bouts." "I mean, Lenny had thousands and never whinged." "Some fights, he didn't even take his coat off, he just steamed in." "To Lenny, it was like drinking a cup of tea." "There was no getting psyched up." "He treated kindness with kindness, but violence with extreme violence." "For him, that was normal." "I think he just enjoyed fighting, I think he really did enjoy it, you know." "I think my mum actually said to me once, she said, she said to me," ""Len, why do you do it?" He said, "I just like hitting people." ""You know, it makes me forget."" "You know, forget what?" "The reason he got involved in the unlicensed boxing was he was probably out drinking with his friends and seen the posters on the wall and everyone is talking about someone else being a hard man, but obviously what people saying his reputation," "Lenny this, Lenny that, he thinks he's an 'ard man." "So actually looking at the poster he'd think, "Yeah, I could do that."" "Roy Shaw, basically, he'd just come out of Broadmoor, OK, he was certified insane." "Strong as a bull, very, very powerful man." "When he was actually, I think it might have been in Broadmoor, he smashed his way out of the cell with his head." "This is the sort of guy that you're dealing with, you know." "Complete and utter loose cannon." "He was regarded as a psychopath." "He was a complete raving lunatic." "Roy." "To the Guv'nor." "To the Guv'nor." "So, when he picks up and reads the paper about Roy Shaw's the Guv'nor, he's looking at that obviously and thinking, "You ain't the fucking Guv'nor."" "Now, no one would say anything about Roy Shaw because of the reprisals of it." "Now, all of a sudden you look at your dad, how old was he, 25?" "And now you've got 25-year-old kid come out of the woodwork, right?" "He's walking around saying," ""I know what I'd do with him, I'd knock him spark out."" "25-year-old kid." "He'd be going into Roy Shaw's local pub throwing darts at pictures of him, right." "Didn't care, absolutely fearless." "So instead of him thinking," ""Right, well, I've got to fight this one to build up the ladder," ""I might as well go straight to the top,"" "and that's the easiest way to get the best reputation." "If you beat the best fighter, you are the best fighter." "Word's obviously got back to Roy." ""There's this kid going around the East End," ""he reckons, he reckons he know what he'll do with you."" "I just picked up a paper one day and there was that Shaw in the paper saying, he's the Guv'nor, he's the best fighter in London," "and I knew I could beat him," "I knew I could beat him." "So a few friends and I got together, stuck a few quid up and challenged him." "Now Roy wants to fight big time." "I just couldn't take anything from him." "I couldn't take anybody telling me what to do or telling me off, you know." "Right, all of a sudden the fight's on." "Well, the first fight, your dad, when he was in his mid-20s he was so confident in his own ability, he didn't bother to train." ""I know what I'd do with this guy."" ""Crash, bang, wallop, 15 seconds," ""he'll be unconscious, end of story, I can go home, finished."" "But, Roy Shaw, he was a professional fighter before he got arrested." "You see, whereas he's hit people on the chin before and they've gone spark out, now Roy, he was an ex-pro, he's still there after a couple of rounds." "So all of a sudden, your dad, he realises that things ain't going quite his way, right." "And then he got beat and it was because of a lack of, lack of training." "The second fight, I would say that he trained a little bit harder." "There was a scrapyard, I think it was down near Roman Road, and they used to train in the scrapyard." "There's your trainer, Ted Heel." "Yeah, it is great." " Train, box." " You wanna bottle, cunt?" "All lorries along here, half Minis, half Mini engines, engines, there used to be caravans, there used to be tyres all the way along here, and there used to be a mad horse that used to run around," "that used to live in a corrugated iron shed and them chasing the horse out so that they could train." "Go on kid, wind it up." "With punch bags with sand in." "I mean, if you ever punched a punch bag with sand in, it is, well, you can't do it, you'll just break your knuckles." "And then they put gas bottles up with rope round it and trained in the centre." "And this is the actual place that it was and it's a park now, you could have a picnic in it now." "With your dad, he had that way about him." "I mean, he'd be up to all sorts of tricks all the time, you know." "He'd have you in fits." "You know, he was a bit of a big kid at times." "Even in the second fight, your dad, he didn't really train hard." "But he was becoming a boxer." "And those old-school methods of training where it's all sort of minimalist, it's what helps a fighter." "Right, Ken, you're the, you know you are the trainer, how long before you reckon he's ready?" "I think he would be ready at the end of this week." "He'll knock him out in the second round." "What does your son think of him?" "Jamie, what round will your dad do him in?" " In the first." " First?" " One punch, one punch." " One punch." " Yeah." " It's easy, innit, it's easy." " Yeah." " Easy." "I'll knock him out either in the first or the second." "No, first." "If it goes, if it goes more than, if it goes more than eight rounds" "I can't get beat on points." "More than 2,000 East Enders scented something out of the ordinary and were not disappointed." "...First right-hander." "That is a punch." "He looks a bit knackered." "Ohh, oh!" "Classic Lenny McLean one-liner was that he was being interviewed by a reporter once and the reporter said of Roy Shaw, he said that..." "Roy Shaw now blames his rather spectacular defeat on the fact that before the fight, he was foolishly advised, he says, to take a particular form of herbal tea." "So I thought, well, on the night, what I'll do, I'll take more, so it'll make me feel stronger for the night, so on the night of the fight, about three hours before," "I took four times the amount, but I didn't just take the capsules," "I took the liquid stuff, which is the stronger, but what happens when you take over the amount, it sedates you, so really, I was sedated, and my wife could have knocked me over." "And Lenny said, "Listen..."" "All he took was a right hander, and what happened in the second round." "And he is racking about, he took this and he took that." "I don't care what you took." "Now that's Lenny McLean, that's classic, you know." "Why is it so important to beat him, in this particular fight?" "Well..." "I've got a bee in my bonnet about him." "He realises now, your dad, that fitness does come into it, because it don't always go one round." "Maybe they can hang on, maybe they might get on their bike and run for a round, but you've got to have the stamina to, with..." "You know, to carry on, so that's when he come to the gym." "Freddie Hill's Gym it was like a real rough, tough sort of gym." "It was like a throwback to the days of the Rocky films, really, you know." "If you look at the gyms today they're all sort of high tech and, you know, whereas, like, Freddie Hill's gym was like real rough and really spit-and-sawdust place, you know." "I think it was just absolutely stinking, the place, it stunk of stale beer downstairs and sweat and tobacco upstairs." "Nowadays, you walk in the gym, they're all sort of plush, people putting on hand cream." "So this is it, Freddie Hill's gym." "This is where all the pros come here, the Finnegan brothers," "I think Marvin Hagler trained here when he fought Alan Minter." "As you can see, it's a block of flats." "Every place we go now is a block of flats or a park." "I mean, I can remember coming here as a kid, everyone used to sign their names on the ceiling." "Every fighter that ever went in there, black felt-tip, white walls, sign their name." "I mean, when they used to train here," "I mean, it wasn't like the trainer would take you on the pads," "I mean, he would just sit there on his desk, smoke his roll-up going, "Yeah, do this, do that."" "You know, there would be smoking roll-ups, training in roll necks and they're bloody doing like eight, nine rounds of sparring." "I was training in the gym and your dad walked in and, you know, and he asked for Freddie Hill, I said," ""He's not about, but he shouldn't be long," you know." "So he said, "All right," and I remember there was a speedball hanging up and that had been hanging up for years, this ball." "And he hit this speedball with a left hook..." "It took off at about 50 mile an hour on the other side of the ring." "And I thought to myself, "We've got trouble here."" "Freddie Hill was an old throwback trainer as well, he was again just like out of a Rocky film, you know." "Uh, which suited your dad, it suited him down to the ground because the modern trainers today wouldn't have been able to handle your dad, really, because your dad was a larger-than-life character, he wanted it his way and that was it." "With Freddie Hill, he had the personality to be able to deal with that." "Len, fight fucking fast, will you?" "Come on." "Go on, throw some punches." "And your dad had a lot of respect for Freddie Hill." "Nice." "All right, John." "What Lenny would do is Lenny would just walk through punches, take punches, cos he knew they couldn't hurt him anyway, but what Freddie wanted to do, he wanted to try and teach him how to slip punches because when you slip a punch" "you can counter and when you can counter, you can do damage without actually taking any." "So then you used to be a warm up for him, didn't you?" "What Freddie asked me to do, "You go in with Lenny" ""and what I want you to do, I just want you to just fire" ""loads and loads of jabs at Lenny, quick-fire jabs,"" "bang, bang, bang, and all Lenny had to do was, all he had to do was learn how to slip, like that." "Being a lightweight, if you can slip in with John, you're going to slip any heavyweight, you're going to see it coming from a mile off." "So every time I'd jab, he slipped, and as he slipped, you could come in with a left hook or a right counter." "In the beginning, I was catching him, I've got to be honest with you." "I was catching him on the top of his head guard." "After two or three days, I wasn't catching him no more." "And he was very hard to hit in the end." "I know that he had run over Victoria Park so he was getting fitter now." "They was training serious." "He was getting fitter, he was getting even stronger." "He had a, he had like a fast track to becoming a pro boxer." "It's just a toughie, you know, but as a fighter," "I'd book him as nothing," "I'll beat him easy this time." "You'll see it." "It'll be a different fight entirely." "It's a fight between two men who are going to fight." "Both are strong men, both are fit men." "No weaknesses whatever with these two men, and this would be a definite fight the public want to see, it's by public acclaim, and the people know that they're not being brought in from abroad," "they know that both men are strong, they're both Londoners, and people who want to see the fight of the two sportsmen together and as far as we're concerned they're going to see a fight." "You've got £300 on it." "Three." "I lost five last time, that was it, but I got some friends of mine are putting a lot of money on." "Apparently, McLean is the favourite, you know, so then everyone, every man to his own what's it called, but..." "Roy'll do him." "So by the time the third fight comes round..." "Your dad was up for it." "He wanted to make sure, he wanted to put it to rest." "You know you have got to survive in the East End." "Be the best fighter, be the Guv'nor." "I'll kill that Roy Shaw." "And I always remember before the fight, in the dressing room, just as he was going to go out." "That's why they call me Daddy Cool, look at me." "Hour before a fight, cool as a cucumber." "That's why I've got to win and that's when he will come second." "And I'm actually sitting next to him, cool as a cucumber." "I was literally sitting next to him on the sofa, that is why they used to call him Daddy Cool, weren't it?" "Well, Roy Shaw he's pacing up and down, isn't he?" "Get that on tape, McLean's a poof." "And they filled the Rainbow Theatre up, 13,000 or something, there was a lot of people at the Rainbow, it was packed." "Roy thought he was going to face the same Lenny McLean as he did the first and the second fight, the Lenny McLean that never trained." "That was probably the best shape he's ever been in." "He was so cool because he knew, look, I'm fit, I'm strong," "I'm not going to get out of breath this time, and he's bang in trouble, and as soon as I hit him on the chin he won't be three rows back, he'll be six." "Ladies and gentleman, the Mean Machine himself," "Roy "Pretty Boy" Shaw." "In the red corner, Lenny "Boy" McLean." "He was more than capable of doing six or seven rounds on that night." "He was lean, he was strong, he was fit." "I mean, these were men." "This was the old dying breed of warrior that no longer exists, you know." "Two reputations met in the ring." "From just throwing caution, to just going in like a street fighter would, now all of a sudden, Lenny, he's got his head down, he's got his hands up." "You know, now all of a sudden, he's looking, he's looking the part now, he's looking like a fighter, he knows how to throw shots." "He wasn't walking through punches to land his own, he was slipping them, and also, when he was slipping punches, the opponent that was throwing the punches that were missing, they was running out of steam because there is nothing that drains your energy more" "than actually when you're throwing punches and missing your target, so it was all working for Lenny." "And he did have that, that, just that rage." "Technically, once he learnt how to box, he utilised that ferociousness and he contained it." "You see traits of a very, very skilful boxer." "He always looked at his opponent like it has his stepfather." "So he could channel all his aggression and all his hate and do whatever he had to do to defeat it." "Who's the Guv'nor?" "I'm the Guv'nor!" "Who's the Guv'nor?" "After he won the final Roy Shaw fight, he was forever known as the Guv'nor." "The Guv'nor would probably mean, you know, you are the toughest man where you come from." "How do you get on with your kids, what do you tell them?" " My kids." " What do you tell them you do?" "Well, they know what I do, but it's a good education because they know I would never allow them to do it, because I've had to do it, but they won't have to do it, I shall make sure of that." "Do you ever give them a slap and..." " Never." "I never..." " Really?" "Anyone who hits..." "Listen to me, anybody who hits kids are bullies because they can't hit anyone else, so they hit kids." "My two kids, 15 and 16, I have never ever hit them, I love them, they are my babies, how could I knock them about, they are a part of me." "Anyone who hits kids, they're bullies, but my babies are beautiful, I love them." "My boy could never do what I do, I wouldn't let him." "There was a lot of money tied up in that last fight and life changed dramatically." "I was born in 1971." "My earliest memories of my father would probably be Christmas time." "We had a very loving family." "My mum was very cuddly and lovely and my dad wasn't sort of that cuddly of a dad." "I mean, he would cuddle you and kiss you, but his way to show affection and love, he would actually go out and buy you stuff, like Christmas would be very special." "So when me, my sister and my mum would wake up and it would be like" "Santa's Grotto, there would be so many presents and toys and my mum and everyone would be happy." "You know, we would go on holidays to Spain." "Then he got a nice house in Streatham Road, things started developing for him." "And in the 1980s, he began to fight professionally as an unlicensed boxer." "Is there a tender side to my dad Lenny?" "Yeah, there was a very tender side to him." "I mean, he was constantly cuddling the dog." "I mean, I can remember coming home from work and I could hear terrible howls and screams and then I would go upstairs and I would be listening outside the door and I could hear him go, "Don't bite Daddy, don't bite Daddy."" "The unlicensed fighting, I mean, look, you've got to understand something." "This man come from nothing, they had nothing, you know, they had to fight to survive, like he says, you have to fight in the East End to get anywhere, and that is the only thing he knew and you have to take your hat off to him." "You know, he wasn't blessed with a massive education, he wasn't blessed with the best looking in the world, but he could fight and he used it to his best abilities." "The most important thing in Lenny's life was his family." "You were big players in his life, you were his number one." "I left home at 21." "I bought my first property which is in Wanstead and then I remember I was moving out in the morning, just getting my clothes together and he called me in the bedroom and said, "Me and mummy don't want you to go."" "He went, "Why don't you do this, rent your flat out,"" "he said, "Live here rent-free," he says, "You will have income coming in,"" "and he said, "You got your work down in Smithfield,"" "he said "You're going to be laughing."" "He said, "Stay here rent-free, you haven't got to pay nothing."" "I went, I thought about it for a minute and I thought, no, no, I got, I went, no," ""I am young, I want to go out to parties and that"" "and I moved out and they, I think they was," "I could see a tear was in their eyes, especially me dad." "He was devastated I was leaving home." "In the '90s, his reputation had sort of carried through and, but he was one of the most successful bouncers of all time on all the doors in the West End." "Lenny McLean, who boasts he's the king of London's bouncers." "In a club, you have a lot of aggravation." ""Get Lenny." "Lenny will straighten it up." "Lenny will put it on the map."" "Lenny admits he has a criminal record for GBH." "Treat kindness with kindness, but your Jack the Lads today, they want violence, you treat violence with violence." "In one week, we had a lot of trouble with some people, a lot of Jack the Lads," "I broke five jaws." "They didn't stop screaming to the police." " Hello, mate." " How's it going, Mick?" " Long time, no see." " Great to see you, how are ya?" "What are you doing out here?" "We are coming in to come and speak to you." "How did you meet him and did you know about his reputation before you had met him?" "I'd heard of Lenny back in the day." "Went to the Camden Palace to look for some work, got the job down there and basically, Lenny took me under his wing." "It was a good place, we had a good team down there, and obviously, the Guv'nor was the leader." "A lot of the times, we was in the restaurant upstairs eating." "In fact, I brought a little picture in to show you, this was back in the day." "We used to be in the restaurant, the buzzer used to go, everyone used to wait for us to come downstairs." " What, they didn't go and deal with it?" " No, they weren't allowed to, we had to wait for Lenny to come and take the front line, and then it was Lenny at the front and it was about 12 or 13 behind him," "all gloved up, we always had little pads made up, you know." "A lot of people say they were knuckle-dusters, they wasn't, they were just pads." "Weren't knuckle-dusters, we, they were like boxing pads, made up, so you didn't cut your hands or damage our hands." "When my dad was doing the Camden Palace" "I can remember going into the kitchen sometimes, and he would have a collection of knives that he's took off people." "I mean, you had to act first, otherwise that would end up in you." "You had to, it was life or death." "And Lenny would, every party that I would do, he would come down, you know..." " Just to show his face." " To show his face." "Lemonade, he would ask me to shoot up and get some lemonades and I'd be the only person who had to fly up there and get them." "What, so if someone said, "Oh, I'd get you a lemonade, Len," he'd go..." "No, he send, send Short Stuff, so I'd fly up, get the lemonades, he followed a few people and then say, "Any problems, give me a call at home,"" "and that was it, and then he was gone, you know." "What was he actually like when it did kick off?" "He kicked off properly." "You know, a lot of times it was one punch, it was down, and he used to say, "Good night, God bless," all the time." "So wherever we worked, we worked on a lot of places, from the Camden Palace, we went to the Hippodrome after." "Probably my dad's most famous time of working in the West End would be the London Hippodrome, where my dad got nicked for the murder." "We're now coming into Leicester Square." "He had all the Leicester Square all sewn up, he had the ticket touts, cab drivers, the food sellers, anything you could think of, it was his little domain." "It was probably a really good time in my life because we used to come up here and we used to be like, you know, like celebrities." "Just every door opened to wherever you wanted to go because he was held in such high esteem." "You know, it was mutual respect amongst doorman that you could use your reputation to get in anywhere you wanted to get." "I was with, obviously, working with Charlie Kray." "We had an office in the Roman Road, we had it many a times and Charlie said to me one day," ""I've got to go up and see Alex, Alex Stein."" "Some, doing some boxing promoting and when we were getting up there, there was a monster of a man stood outside and Charlie went, "That's Lenny," ""I've got to have a word with him."" "I went, "I hope it's a nice word," and they got up there fired him into a little bit and was having a little bit it was going here and there and I thought," ""Charlie, you've got to ease up here, pal," ""because we could end up getting battered here."" "I can see this, and then it all stopped, big hug, and I went, "Thank God for that,"" "and Charlie went, "Here, John, meet Len." "Len, this is my pal John."" "You know, this is quite hard to actually walk into the Hippodrome, because the last time I come here he was on the door, you know, we're coming back for the first time." "He was here on the doors from '90 to '93." "Look how it's changed, unbelievable." "He would stand inside the door, but mainly he had a little office on the left hand side with a camera on the door so he could see everything that was going on, him and his cousin John-John would sit in there just eating Chinese every night" "taking the piss out of everyone walking in there." "A bad time for him and us was obviously when he got nicked for the murder at the Hippodrome." "He was actually on his way home and then they rung him and said," ""Look, Len, we've got some geezer here."" "The guy was actually starkers naked." "He's got his old bill out, he's pissing on the dance floor, doorman grabbed hold of him, took him to a room." "And my dad obviously give him a backhander or a clump or whatever, dressed him up after and got him out." "I'm in bed, I got up quite early Sunday morning, put the radio on and I hear this thing about the Hippodrome, someone died or got murdered, and I thought, well, what?" "So I got straight on to the phone to Lenny." "And my dad went, "You're joking."" "So he goes, "Oh, fucking, are you serious?"" "I went, "I've heard it, that is why I am ringing you up."" "So he goes, "Let me ring you back." He spoke to Val." "He said, "That fella I give a backhander to last night, he's died." ""They're going to come and nick me for this."" "She went, "No, don't be silly, they're not going to come and nick you."" "Probably a day or two went past and all of a sudden the doorbell went and there must have been about fifty old bill outside." "And they said, "We need to take you down the station" ""and question about Mr Humphries."" "And I think that they had arrested Robert Lopez as well." "They said, "Look, we're going to arrest you and Robert,"" "and my dad said, "Look," he said, "Robert never hit the kid."" "He said, "I hit him."" "He said, "But I had to keep him under control because he was a nutter."" "And then they charged him with the murder." "I mean, I can remember pulling up at my house and my mum was in fits of laughter." "It was a nervous reaction, she couldn't, it was like uncontrollable fits of laughter." "You know, he was on remand for 12 months on a murder charge." "Apparently, he was running loose from Manchester out of a nuthouse, he ended up in London somehow, from London he came to the Hippodrome, got thrown out, apparently he was pissing on the cars outside the Hippodrome," "heading up towards the casino." "The next thing there was police, four or five police threw him headfirst into a van and there was a nurse who witnessed it that was walking by that night which saved Lenny's arse." "So it was the police that caused the damage and killed him, not Lenny." "That's why they overruled in court and he got what he got, you know, an ABH instead of them trying to pin a murder charge on him." "And then after the trial it says here, "The police beat up tragic streaker."" "So a night club streaker was beaten to death by the police, not the two bouncers accused of the, accused of the murder at the Old Bailey." "Yeah, it was a witch hunt." "Because of the name Lenny McLean," "I think the police had it in for him and they tried to pin it on him." "I mean, at the moment when charges got dropped," "I mean, he literally stood up and stared at the judge and he sung Always Look on the Bright Side of Life by Monty Python, and that is just the sort of sense of humour my dad had." "I have to whistle it cos I don't know the rest of the words." "I think it sort of wore him down in the end, I think he just had enough, you know." "I could see a man who, who really wanted to step into something else." "That's why he tried to do something a little bit more sort of creative." "In the 1990s, he'd written his own book." "His book, he knew that was a winner, he knew that was gold dust, and yet people couldn't see it." "And I was around him for years when he was punting that book around, until one day somebody looked at it and thought," ""This is special, this is going to do very, very well, this book,"" "and they took it on because they could see that it was gold dust, they could see the potential in this book." "Why no one has taken this on is beyond me." "And it was the best seller." "And it was the best seller for years." "It sold millions of copies." "And he became sort of famous." "You always see his face, knuckles up at the chin everywhere you go." "And he became a celebrity." "He got TV roles." "There is 200 notes there for you and one or two of your men about, just to discourage them." "And also his talk shows." "Lenny McLean." "Lenny McLean, champion street fighter of Great Britain." "I'm planning to have a scrap." "He loved the attention." "I mean, he loved his family, but he liked, you know, people taking notice of him." "Ladies and gentlemen, Lenny McLean." "As he was coming to later on in his life," "I think he knew he could do a lot more, like the acting was just right up his street." "Ray, you are a fucking gentleman." "He said, "You know, all these years,"" "he said, "I've been punching people and knocking people out,"" "he said, "And it just suddenly dawned on me,"" "he said, "You punch someone on the jaw in a nightclub, they want to give you five years,"" ""you do it in front of a TV camera, they want to give you five grand, yeah."" "He's a fucking thief." "Harry has a colleague, a monster of a man, Barry the Baptist." "The Baptist got his name by drowning people for Hatchet." "I don't give a fucking..." "I loved your dad, he was fabulous." "I remember the first time I saw your dad," "I saw him on the door of the Hippodrome when I was about 15 or something, and as soon as I saw him, I thought," ""If I ever end up making a movie, he's going to be in the movie."" "And then, I don't know what it was, 10 years later or whatever it was, he was in there, and I called him up, I can't remember how I got hold of the number," "and your dad just could not have been more helpful, and that's before we had any dough, or before we was sort of organised or anything." "And as your dad come in, I loved him, he was great." "And are you still cracking on in the films?" "Am I still cracking on?" "We made a fucking deal for everything inside the cabinet." "Inside out-fuckin'-side, I don't give a shit." "You get those guns, because if you don't..." "Oh, yeah, Bazza, or what?" "We had these trailers which were, it's called a three-way." "It's a caravan with no toilets, but three changing rooms, which you'd put, you know, someone who was in for a day you might put them in, but what they did was, they put two of us in each," "me with your dad." "So it was Lenny's first day and I got to my little door and it went" ""Jason Flemyng, Lenny McLean," and I went, "Oh..."" "And I opened the door and I looked in, it was tiny and I went, "There is no way on God's green Earth" ""Lenny McLean is going to get in this trailer with me in it."" "So I got, I got changed quickly and left my bag in the corner and then Lenny arrived and he went, "You all right, boy," and I went, "Yeah, yeah, no, I'm fine, Lenny." ""I'm going to change, I'm going to leave you to it," ""I'm going to change out here," and he went, "What, outside?" and I went," ""Yeah, no, I'm going to change, I'm just going to change in the street,"" "and he went, "Good boy," and he closed the door." "And I was getting changed in the street and I'd forgotten something," "I knocked on the door like this, and I'd left my stuff in there, and there was a CD that I, that's how long ago it was, there was a CD which I was playing, which was on the side, it was an Elvis CD," "and your dad was very into Elvis and it was a Japanese import and he went, and it was the first day I met him and I went, he went," ""Where did you get this, boy?"" "And I went, "Oh, it's a Japanese import, they're hard to get."" "And he goes, "Could you get me one of these?"" "And I said, "You can have that one, Lenny,"" "and he went, "Good boy, good boy," and he stuck it in his bag and I was like, "Oh, God, this is a nightmare being in with Lenny,"" "cos there's nothing I can say." "You know, I saw him do the scene with the Scousers and he was going, he goes, "Where's those guns?"" "Where's the others?" ""Did you get those guns, the old ones?"" "Stop fuckin' around." "The others, the old ones." "We had to sell them, we needed the money." "I'm not fucking interested." "If you don't want to be counting the fingers you haven't got," "I suggest you get those guns quick!" "Yeah, I knew your father from way back in the day now." "I mean, I've come out of Camden, so at the age of about 15, 16 we used to go to Camden Palace, which used to be called Koko, so we used to turn up there and my friends used to be all nervous" "cos your dad would be just like a big fella on the door and I used to say, "Don't worry about it, I'll deal with this." ""Go on," I said, "Push me up," and I was like, "All right, Len, how you doing?"" "And he goes, "Go on, fuck off, get in."" "He just used to, and we were in, VIPs to put us in," "I don't know why, he just liked us because we had a bit of banter," " I had a bit of banter." " Yeah, that's what he probably liked." "Hello?" "Get us ice cream while you are at it." "You know, I mean, Lenny was a well-respected actor at that point." "He had timing and he understood the craft, he understood the marks, he understood about the preparation." "Without a doubt, Lock, Stock would've been a great showcase as it was for all of us." "What the fuck do we know about antiques, mate?" "If it looks old, it's worth money, simple." "So stop fucking moaning and rob the place." "This was the original billboard that was going to be in the film, obviously, for Lock, Stock, and they had them all on the billboards all round sort of London and Shoreditch." "That would have pleased your dad no end, Lenny would say, "That's it," ""I've made it now, that's what I've always..." ""That's what I've been looking for all these years."" "The tragedy was, you know, as you know, is that Lenny wasn't completely well at that point and one of the great pleasures and successes of Lock, Stock was the fact that it came out and was number one at the box office" "at the same time as The Guv'nor was number one as a book." "And he was alive for that, you know, so he was there and saw, you know, his film and his book be at number one simultaneously, which is amazing." "But wouldn't it have been nice if your dad was walking down the street one day and a kid come over to him and said," ""You're Lenny McLean, ain't you?" instead of saying," ""You're Lenny McLean, you're this, you're that, the other," ""say you're Lenny McLean, ain't you, the film star?"" "Wouldn't that have been great?" "And wouldn't he have appreciated that?" "He would have loved that, and that says it all, doesn't it?" "Yeah, no, I got him, he is wearing a roll neck and he's drinking in Hoxton somewhere." "That was my mum's wedding." " Oh, was it?" "It wasn't." " It was, yeah." "Oh, was it?" "Oh, fuck me, yeah, I wonder if my dad has got any pictures of that?" "Has your mum got any pictures of it?" "There's one I put indoors, but you can just see a little bit of Lenny in it..." "He's doing that..." "Yeah, we're trying to..." "The thing is, my family are all a bit nuts, it's hard to get them on camera." "I spoke to my dad's sister Boo and she just said to me that they was all very close growing up, extremely close, she said, but there was definitely something wrong with him, she went, forget about the beltings, she went, there was something," "there was something deeper, something..." "She just said he was a little bit bullyish to his family." "Yeah, it was quite difficult listening to it, to be fair." "I think I'm coming to a different conclusion, even though he had a brutal upbringing, I think there was an underlying what's the word I am looking for, it's something else going on, there was something," "what can we say, was there some mental issues, was there, or," "there's something definitely, there was definitely something wrong with his nut, as we would say in the East End, and to be fair, it's hard for me to talk about it, it's quite hard." "He was a tortured soul." "I mean, my mum always said that, you know, he's..." "His nut is not right, it never has been since she's known him, you know, his nut was always going, that's what he would always say," ""Oh, me nut's going, me nut's going,"" "you know, that's one of his common things he would always say." "I wouldn't say, look, it weren't all roses and tinkerbells in our house, sometimes it would affect us." "But to be fair, I was never hit as a kid, you know, he didn't agree with hitting children, you know, but obviously he shouted and the shout would obviously do." "I've not seen him shout at fully grown men and cry, doormen, and make them cry, just by shouting." "But that's when, you know, I look back now and think why was he angry at that time, why was he so aggressive, and now I'm thinking because he didn't want to show the weakness of how his nut" "was coping with as we know it now as OCD." "You know, it's hard for me to talk about it because would he have wanted me to talk about it?" "But we need to know the truth about what lay behind the violence." "Other people noticed that he'd have OCD, especially probably his family." "Like he'd come home from school, count his steps, say his steps was 150 steps." "The next day, he'd go and count the steps again to come home, and it'd be 148 steps, so he'd have to go all the way back to school and count the 150 steps, so it was 150 steps and do that again." "And that, he had to do that until that was right and then that's the sort of things he would do." "He'd say, "Oh, I forgot, there's a matchstick somewhere,"" "and he'd have to go back to a matchstick in the street somewhere, literally get on a bus, go back, pick it up, and then go "Nine-ten, nine-ten," and then go." "He found a wage packet when he was younger and it had nine-ten in it, and he would always repeat that and I used to think to myself," ""Why does he keep saying nine-ten?"" "So throughout his life, "Nine ten, nine-ten."" "And that was lucky, that's why he would say it." "You know, he'd repeat himself, he talked in the mirror a lot." "I mean, he did like the mirror to be fair." "I mean, I think if he could have one surgically put on the front of his face, he would definitely have had one because he was constantly looking in it." "I think he see someone in the street that he used to work with when he left school, when he was a window cleaner, and he hadn't seen this guy for 25 years, so he's come home to my mum and said," ""Val, I've just seen so and so, what's his name?"" "And my mum said, "I didn't know you really then, Len, I don't know his name."" ""I've got to," and he would go on and he went on for weeks," ""I need to know this name."" "Morning, noon, and night, "What's this geezer's name?"" "So that would play on his mind for two to three weeks to find out who this man was, she would've found out the geezer's name, told my dad and he went," ""Oh, that's it," and he wouldn't mention it ever again." "As soon as he found out his mind was settled, he would go on to something else." "I'm not saying people in the East End are ignorant, but there was a, you know, there wasn't an understanding about OCD or even dyslexia, autism, so someone who done that, they just got classed as being a nutter or mad," "so it was a stigma, but no one would tell Lenny to his face." "It must've been very, very difficult for him to have a problem like that, it was a vulnerability." "He must've had a protection up." "When he felt like that, because he was such a man's man," "I think it would develop into anger." "He dealt with it the best way he could, he never sat with a therapist." "My generation, we go and have therapy twice a week, but, you know, they were real men." "They didn't go to doctors if their leg was hanging off, you know, they was, they get shot and went down the hospital and then come out and had a big cream cake." "That's, that's a different world, we're a different breed nowadays." "We're very narcissistic, we're into ourselves, we're into our being." "iPhone generation now, we are." "You know, I just think it's all the emotion of filming, it's all got a bit on top of me, really, to be fair, it's been quite hard." "It was nothing, sorry, mate." "Now, gentleman." "How old are you?" "This is, this is a fucking 12-year-old schoolboy." "No you're right, it's all right." "We split, nothing, we spilt teas on each other, it was a tease, but it was wrong." "Just had an argument, that was all, nothing." " Honestly, Officer, nothing was done." " Are you working?" "Yeah, we're filming, yeah." "What the fuck was that all about?" "Have a fight in the middle of a restaurant, just done four months." "What the fuck is wrong with you?" "Seriously." "He was being, he was being leery to me, Jo." "The police are outside, someone's filmed you." "If somebody had come, you're back inside for six months." "You've got to control your fucking temper, Jamie." "You know, it does my nut, I've got a, I need something to take it away." "Cos I'm, now I've gone in there, but I didn't say nothing to him straight away." "He said summat and I sat down and I said, "Have you got a problem or summat?"" "He's got to say something, he's a little bit older than me so now he has to say something, I said, "Fuck it," I went to grab him." "Now I've gone in there and caused absolute murder with cups and saucers have gone everywhere, so, but, oh, I don't know." "I just..." "I like to be tucked up indoors, I know." " It's emotional, talking about it." " I know." "It's even emotional me coming down Hoxton again." "Yeah, I don't come here, you know what I'm saying?" "I don't come here." "When I see all the hipsters and the change of it all, and I got my old flatmate who's talking about Lenny, it's difficult, it's difficult." "At some point, it's a good thing being his son and then that point, it's a bad thing to be his son because obviously people think you're the same, you know, you're the same as him." "I am similar to him in a lot of ways with our sense of humour, funny, but..." "But we have got a certain streak in us, like our tempers can go very quickly." "I don't really go out that much anywhere any more, cos I just don't want to get in any more altercations, like I'm one punch away from going to prison" "for however long it would be, I don't know." "I had been skiing in Italy and I spoke to my mum and she said, "Look, you need to come home, Daddy's not very well,"" "and I can remember walking in, but he hadn't sort of shrunk, but he had lost a lot of weight off the shoulders so I said, "Oh," I said, "Dad, you don't look well,"" "and he said, "No, I think I'm all right, I think I got a bit of pleurisy,"" "so I said, "No, no, we need to go to the hospital."" "Put my dad in the car, we drove him up to the hospital in Sidcup and they bought him in and they said, "Oh, he don't look very well,"" "and they done a few tests on him and they said, you know, "We've done a scan on you,"" "and they said it's cancer and it's spread to your brain and we're going to give you eight months to live." "You always thought that he was invincible." "This sort of thing can't happen to Lenny, you know." "Actually, when the cancer was like in its advanced stages," "I remember like my mum would, she would go to the shops and go, "Len, Len," and he wouldn't answer, so she'd go up the stairs and he'd be sitting in bed" "with his eyes open stiff and we'd thought he had died and she would go, "Len, Len!"" ""Oh, no, I'm only joking." "Did you get my cream cakes?" ""Did you get my Magnum lollies?"" "And she'd go, "Don't do that!" And she'd be hitting him..." "He'd be laughing and like, you know, he's dying, but he was still liked practical jokes." "And he always smoked his roll-ups, even, there was no point in giving up because the damage was already done and I can remember there was no toilet upstairs in the house, and I can remember like 4:00 in the morning," "him tumbling down the stairs where he is trying to get up and go to the toilet and I've turned the light on and go, "Dad, are you all right?"" "And he went, "Don't worry I haven't dropped the roll-up."" "And like he still had the roll-up in his hand and he was literally in a pile at the bottom of the stairs." "The MacMillan nurse, they said," ""What we are going to do is we will set a toilet upstairs for him,"" "and my mum went, "The day Lenny can't get up and use the toilet," ""that is the day that he will die."" "And she was 100% right." "His funeral was very impressive." "We probably had probably 15, 20 cars of family and then there was about 60 cars following, I would say." "The streets were lined with people." "Thousands and thousands and thousands of people to see Lenny off, you know." "That's incredible." "And like it was just like a massive procession." "There was sort of all news cameras doing interviews with people and everyone reckoned they knew him or he lived in the Roman or he lived in Hoxton." "It was pretty powerful." "Is that a bad guy?" "Do people do that for someone who goes around hurting people for no reason?" "No, they don't do that, no, cos they knew Lenny for what he was." "He was a nice man and make, give a lot of people a lot of fun along the way, believe me, you know." "A funny story always sticks in my head." "I remember they were down Clacton and someone come up to me and said, "Oh, I see your mum and dad in Clacton."" "He had his hand on the top of her head." "He said, "Why does he do that?" I said, "I'll tell you why he does that."" "I said, "He does it in case he thinks" ""anything's going to fall on her head and hurt her."" "I said, "It's just a little funny thing that he does."" "Nothing's going to fall on his head, but it's just a little funny joke they have between theirselves." "I said, "And that is why he does it."" "Erm, making the documentary, at first I thought it was a really good idea making the film." "I wanted to interview people that knew him or had stories, negative or positive, it didn't matter to me." "But was I going around looking for too much negativity?" ""Beloved husband, father, Leonard John Frederick McLean, The Guv'nor." ""He died in 28.07.1998."" "And this is a sad one, "In loving memory of Valerie Georgina McLean," ""best mum in the world." "Will always miss you forever, Jamie and Kelly."" "She died 18.12.2007, 56." "All very young." "You know, you look at it there, age 46, me nan, 49, my dad." "It's, oh, it's no age, is it?" "You ain't even had a life." "Ain't had a life then." "This is where you end up, it's just..." "It's just, you know, this is the, you know, your last journey, you end up here." "It's heart-breaking, innit?" "And this is my Christmas now, I mean," "I said earlier on that all my good memories at Christmas and laughing, you know." "Christmas is quite a good time for people now." "My Christmas mornings, I have to come here, reluctantly," "I don't want to come here to see my mum and dad," "I want to go and see them at their house, happy and laughing." "All he wanted to do was better himself, provide for his family and which he did." "He was a good father and a good husband." "We're celebrating it, that's what we are doing." "We're not doing a film, we're not doing a documentary, we're celebrating a man that come from nothing to become something." "Well, fuck me, what's that?" "What is that?" "That is what my dad would do." "I am my father's son." "So..." "Um..." "Sorry, force of habit." "I punch someone in the face, I'm going to prison." "No matter what I do, it's going to be highlighted 100 times worse than what it is by the police." "They had a dossier like that about my old man when I went to court." "I mean, what has that got to..." "What has my old man got to do with me having a fight for 10 seconds somewhere?" "So are you paying for the sins of your father?" "I think we are, I think we do." "I think I did." "Yeah, I can't say I wouldn't be in that position again because if someone did push me," "I think I would probably, yeah, I would snap." "Yeah, I would." "I wouldn't be able to keep my hands to myself definitely." "I wouldn't be able to let someone pick on me and my family," "I don't think I could do it." "I mean, I'm 45 now, who wants to end up in prison?" "It's no place for no one." "You sound a bit of a bully." "No, you're joking." "Gentleman." "Not a bully." "A gentleman." "Do you know the family, the McLeans and the Walls?" " I have heard the name of it, yeah." " Yeah." " Have you ever heard of the McLeans?" " Oh, yes, yes." " Oh, I know Lenny." " Yeah?" " Do you remember Lenny McLean?" " Yeah." " I'm his boy, Jamie." "Yeah." " Are you?" " Lenny McLean?" "Do you know Lenny?" " Knock him out." "We're doing a documentary about him." " Are you?" "Of course I knew him." " Did you know Lenny?" " Did you know him?" " Knew Lenny well, yeah." "Did you, what did you go to school round here as well?" "Well, no, I used to be a chauffeur and I used to drive, meet him up there" " when he used to work at Camden." " Yeah." "He asked to have the carwash and Lenny used to bring his black Ford Granada..." " Yeah." " And he used to come down with Johnny, Fat Nose Johnny." "What was my old man like when he was younger?" "He was a bit of a nuisance round here when he was younger, do you know what I mean?" " Murder, murder." "Yeah, I liked him, yeah." " Yeah." "He never done me any harm, he was polite to me." "Didn't get too involved with him," " you know what I mean?" " Yeah." "Everybody labelled as a bully, but he weren't." "They talked about the bad things he done on one hand, but the good things he done they won't tell you." "He was a blinding geezer," " bailed me out on a number of occasions." " Yeah." "I always say they're one of the boys from Hoxton." "Yeah, that's it." "And we always said we had our road," " but they never robbed their own." " No." "I'm standing on the door like me old man, but I think I'm a little bit more immaculately dressed." "All right, Sam?" "Got a bee in my bonnet about him." "No, he didn't even talk like that." "He went, "Hello, dinky."" "That's how he spoke really, that was all for the camera." "He would go, "Hello, all right, kids?"" "That's how he spoke, that's how we all speak." "All the McLeans speak like that, "Hello, right." "Oh, doo-dee-dee.""