"Today, people, we are privileged to have with us a former Labor Cabinet Minister and leader of the House of Lords, a Knight of the Garter and Seventh Earl of Longford who's come to talk to us about a book he's just written" "entitled, "Saints."" "Frank Packenham, Lord Longford, welcome to the show." "Thank you very much." "So many questions to ask you, such a long and distinguished career, but I'm gonna start with the book." "What prompted you to write it?" "As a lifelong Christian and scholar," "I've always been interested in ideas of sanctity." "But more than that, I think it was probably the entirely selfish desire to spend a little time with my heroes." " Your heroes?" " Yes, that's what the saints are... my heroes, friends, intercessors." "Interesting." "Right, the time has just gone 2:15." "The subject is "Saints." We're gonna take some calls." "David, you're through to Lord Longford." "What's your question about the saints?" "Actually, my question isn't about the saints." "I want to know how your esteemed guest can look himself in the mirror each morning." "I'm assuming this is a question about Myra Hindley." "Yes, it is." "How could you rub salt in the wounds of the families like that?" "A man in your position fraternizing and campaigning on behalf of that monster?" "I certainly take exception to that description, but I made it quite clear before coming on the program that I wouldn't be talking about Myra Hindley today." "Of course." "Next caller is Judy who's in Sheppey." "You're through to Lord Longford." "My call is also about Ms. Hindley." "In view of everything we now know about it, don't you regret having supported her all that time?" "Once again, madam, I'm afraid I must decline to answer questions about her." "It's a simple answer, Lord Longford... yes or no." "Do you regret it?" "The Pennine Moorlands, scene of one of the most intensive murder hunts of the century." "Police and hundreds of volunteers continue their gruesome search for the bodies of murder victims, working on a scant tip-off that the bleak moors hide the evidence of a mass murderer." "And late on Saturday afternoon they found the body of 10-year-old Lesley Downey, face down in a shallow grave." "Five days later, another body was discovered." "...been identified as that of John Kilbride, the 12-year-old boy who disappeared from his Manchester home nearly two years ago." "I'm standing outside number 16" "Wardle Brook Avenue, Hattersley, where earlier today police arrested a man and a woman after finding the body of a 17-year-old boy," "Edward Evans." "Police have now released the names of the suspects." "They are Ian Brady, a 28-year-old clerk, and Myra Hindley, his 23-year-old girlfriend." "Hindley, who said that she had a sore throat, gave her evidence in a low, husky voice." "She said that she had loved Brady and still loved him." "When she was cross-examined about her part in the nude photographing session with the child Lesley Ann Downey, she said, "I offer no defense for that." "It was indefensible and cruel."" "She said she didn't know that Brady was tape-recording the session and that she was ashamed when she heard the tape played later." "Extra police were called in to keep the peace." "The parents of other missing Manchester children were outside the court." " Hanging's too good for them." " This was too quick." "He wants to torture them." "A tooth for a tooth and a life for a life." "...head sank as she heard the foreman of the jury speak the word "guilty" the first time." ""These were three calculated, cruel and cold-blooded murders,"" "was what Mr. Justice Fenton Atkinson said." "Sentencing them both to life imprisonment, the judge said quietly, "Put them down."" "From time to time, people are kind enough to ask me what I consider to be my greatest achievement in life, and I always answer the same way." "I say, "It is that I visit prisoners."" "Congratulations, Roy." "And if I were to die tonight, it is the very first thing I would say to St. Peter if he were remotely interested." "Morning, Barry." "But some of my greatest and most-valued friendships have begun with prison visits." "And much of what I've learned, I owe to prison visits." "Dennis here, for example, has taught me the workings of the diesel engine." "Priceless information... even though I do not drive." "and Michael here has taught me Gaelic." "And together we have studied some of Ireland's finest poetry." "And I thank you for that, Michael." "And Roy here, whose release we are celebrating today, has taught me that it is never too late to take up something new and to still master it." "Having never so much as picked up a brush before the age of 30, he is this year to be shown at the Royal Academy." "In fact, I have an example of that here, which has just been presented to me." "It's a very fine piece of work." "I think you could've chosen a rather more attractive subject, Roy, and you flatter me a great deal." "Thank you very much." "Might I have a word?" " Yes, of course." " In private." "Yes, of course." "Excuse me." "I just had a phone call from the governor of Holloway Prison." "So what did Ann Tree want?" "Oh, the mighty Tree." "There's a prisoner in Holloway who specifically asked to see me." "As long as it's not Myra Hindley." "As a matter of fact, it is." "You're not going to go?" "Of course." "I can't sit on the board of a prison-visiting charity and start drawing lines." "Yes, you can." "Frank, that woman's inhuman." "She's... she's a monster." "She murdered innocent young children." "We don't even know how many." "But as a prisoner, she's still perfectly entitled to be visited." "Yes, but not necessarily by you." "Look, you know I've always supported your penal work, but there are some crimes, some people that are..." "What?" "Unforgivable." "Oh, come along, you know what I feel about that." "No human being is beyond forgiveness." "Condemn people from our armchairs and what have we become?" "Frank, stay behind a moment, will you?" "Yes, of course, Prime Minister." "I read in the paper you threw a party for a murderer in the House of Lords yesterday." "A released murderer, Prime Minister, who's paid his debt to society and is now free." "Still made the headlines." "Wrong sort of headlines." "I understand your charitable and philanthropic work is important, but holding this government together is important to me." "You've a habit of doing this, haven't you?" "Attracting unfortunate headlines." "I remember you asking your country to forgive the Germans after the war." "They were starving, Prime Minister." "But so were we." "It was 1947." "There's an endearing childlike quality about you, Frank." "But no one wants children in cabinet." "I made you leader of the Lords on the recommendation of Clem Attlee." "And so far, you've done little to justify his faith." "But, you have a talent..." "Which I will utilize." "And then he came up with this report... well, not a report, more of an investigation." "He wants me to look into young people nationwide, focusing on education, homelessness, criminality." "But you'd do that wonderfully." "I can't think of anyone better." "Under normal circumstances, perhaps, but this is clearly a poisoned chalice." "Half the inquiry would come under the auspices of Education, and half under the Home Office." "Oh, I shouldn't have come out tonight." " Don't be silly." " Love to you." "Look, there's that lady from "The Sunday Times"" "who wrote those lovely things about you." "Oh?" "Do you remember how much you liked her?" "Oh, yes." "Hello." "Very nice to see you." "I'd like you to clear an afternoon for me in the next couple of weeks." " How's the 21st?" " You have a meeting at 4:00 with the Home Secretary." " 28th?" " Better." "I can move that one." "Good, let's go for the 28th." " What shall I put down?" " Hmm?" "Oh, just put "prison visit."" "Bernadette Collins?" "Susan Davis?" "Helen Kroger?" "Ethel G?" "Myra Hindley?" "Susanna Smit?" "Rita Williams?" "Ms. Hindley?" "I do beg your pardon, madam." "I think it's me you're looking for." "Myra Hindley?" "Got rid of the peroxide before the trial." "It was blue at the trial for most of it, and then red for the sentencing." "Apparently it counted against me." "It showed I had no remorse." "I wasn't aware of a correlation between hair color and contrition." "Nor me." "I'm very pleased to meet you." "Never met a Lord before." "What should I call you?" "M'lord?" "Your grace?" " You must call me Frank." " All right." "Frank." "They put me in this table in the corner 'cause it helps protect me from the lip readers." "So, you specifically asked to see me." "What can I do for you?" "I want to see Ian Brady." "I see." "Although we weren't married, we were together for six years, which I believe makes us common-law husband and wife, and therefore entitled to see one another just like married prisoners." "Well, if that's what you desire, of course I will do all I can to help you." "But I have to say, even though I'm not your solicitor," "I don't think it's a good idea." "Why not?" "Because whatever it is you wish to achieve by seeing him, it will almost certainly elude you." "If it's private conversation or intimate contact you're after, you won't get it." "You'll be surrounded by prison officers and guards at all times." "Then there's the question of public reaction." "Were the press to get hold of it, they'd have a field day." "It might have a profoundly detrimental effect on any future chances of parole." "Parole?" "Lord Longford, have you forgotten who I am?" "They'll never give me parole." "Why ever not?" "As I recall, the judge made a distinction between your case and Mr. Brady's." "Although he sentenced him for the rest of his natural life, he made it quite clear that in your case, it could be reviewed." "Now the average life sentence is currently 21 years." "Parole can be applied for after a third of that time." "So you can make your first application... six years from now." "Are you serious?" "Perfectly serious." "God." "So my advice would be that you put some distance between yourself and Mr. Brady." "I gave that man everything... my heart, my soul, my life." "Indeed, if I may say so, at some personal cost to yourself." "You're right." "What a pretty smile you have." "What?" "I said what a pretty smile." "That's the first kind thing anyone's said to me in months." "It's true." "As a matter of fact, your entire appearance and demeanor is quite different to what I expected." "Of course, all I had to go on was that police photograph." "The Medusa." "That's what I call it." "No one looks their best at 4:00 in the morning having been questioned for nine hours straight, do they?" "Five minutes!" "So, is there anything I can send you that would make things more comfortable?" "Books and music." "Anything in particular?" "I like jazz and the Goons." "Ian and I used to listen to them a lot." "I'll see what I can do." "In the meantime, I suggest you get a family member to put aside half a pound a week or so." " What for?" " When you come out." "You really think I will one day?" "Yes, of course." "When will you come again?" "When you ask me." "Prison visitors never visit prisoners unless they're invited." "Well, you'll hear from me soon then." "Good." "Delighted to have met you, Ms. Hindley." "You too, Frank." "Bye-bye." "Anyway, she wasn't at all how I might've expected." "I've found her charming, intelligent, attractive even." "Ahem." "A woman that murdered three children?" "A woman who came under the spell of a man who murdered three children." " That's rubbish." " I spoke to the prison governor." "She's quite convinced that Myra Hindley was corrupted by Ian Brady and to consider them as equals is a great mistake." "Dada, except that she procured those children, knowing exactly what would happen to them." "Never would've got into the car without a woman present." "The judge made a clear distinction at the trial that Ian Brady was the initiator of these crimes and the actual killer." "Myra Hindley was merely a dominated and corrupted accomplice." "The distinction's irrelevant..." "murderer and accomplice are equally guilty in the eyes of the law." "Killers of this kind almost always have a prior history of offending." "Myra Hindley had nothing, not even a blemish." " and wasn't there a tape?" " what tape?" "At the trial." "I seem to remember there was a tape where one heard the dreadful things they did to the little girl, and that it was Myra Hindley's voice one could hear." " Not Brady's." " No." "What about a swim?" "Yes, please, grandpa." "Please, Mommy, a swim, a swim!" "I think it's clearing up." ""Dear Frank, thanks again for your visit, for the books you sent me." "I finished the first volume of your autobiography."" " How old are you then?" " 17." ""It's an interesting life you have had."" "You look younger to me." ""So many conversions... from English to Irish;" "from conservative to socialist;" "from Protestant to Catholic." "I don't know if you're aware, but as a teenager I converted to the Catholic church too."" ""Dear Myra," "I had no idea that you had converted to Catholicism too." "How fascinating." "What a coincidence."" " May I?" " Mmm-hmm." "As a young man, I wasn't much interested in God." "Quite the opposite." "This one day I was just overwhelmed by the sheer pointlessness of an existence without the prospect of an afterlife." "That's when I realized that without a religious dimension, there was little meaning to life."" "How's your spiritual life now?" "I don't go to church anymore if that's what you're asking." "That all stopped when I started seeing Ian..." "Along with everything else that was good in my life." "It's too powerful... a magnetlike personality." "He demolished everything I believed in." "I was obsessed." "Next time you have a moment, try going back to church." "You might be pleasantly surprised." "In my experience, it's the prisoners with the strongest faith that cope best." "Just imagine what Ian would say to that." "He thinks God is for nutters." "Does he?" "Well, I beg to differ." ""Dear Frank, the Catholic priest that visits us here is German..." "Father Kahle." "He says Mass here twice a week, and last week I told him I might be looking to find a way back to the church."" ""The report in its entirety, will cover youth activity..."" ""He's given me the divine office to read every day, and the Penny Catechism."" ""Ah, the Penny Catechism." "You might also consider reading 'The Confessions of St. Augustine,' which are particularly good."" ""Anyway, Father Kahle thinks I have made progress and we are not far away from the day when I can make a full confession."" ""How wonderful." "Be sure to tell me what day it is that I might pray for you myself."" "What's that, Lord Longford?" "Uh, this is the much-anticipated" "Youth Report which I'm delivering" " to the Prime Minister today." " How long have you been working on it?" "I've been working on it for 18 months." "Any further questions?" "Very good." "Bye." "Oh, Frank, yesterday I finished reading St. Augustine." "The way he rejected his former life and sinfulness..." "Afterwards, I lay in my cell unable to sleep, my head was spinning so." "Every fiber in my body seems to want to resist this, yet a part of me cannot deny it feels so good too." "I just keep hearing Ian's voice in my head mocking me for my hypocrisy and my insincerity." "I wouldn't worry about that." "Lord Longford, the Prime Minister will see you now." "Oh, thank you very much." " Prime Minister." " Sit down, Frank." "I'm gonna come straight to the point." "I want to give Shackleton a run as leader of the House of Lords." "I see." "I want to thank you for everything you've done for us, Frank." "You've done a terrific job over the years." "But you've reached an age now." "Shackleton's a younger man." "It... it's nothing to do with the report, is it?" "What report?" "The Youth Report, Prime Minister, that you asked me to write." "No no no." "Nothing to do with that." "I just want to give Shackleton a run." "As you know, we're right up against it now." "Tories have gained ground and... you've gotta keep moving in politics." "Fresh blood, new faces." "New ideas." "Everyone's down having breakfast." "Will you join us?" "Nice pieces in the paper." "Yes." "People are being very kind." ""The last remaining example of a politician with principle."" "I'll leave the post." "Not another one from Myra Hindley by any chance?" "Because I've noticed she's been writing to you a lot recently." "Yes." "I've been working towards her return to the Catholic church." " Myra Hindley?" " Yes." "Anyway, it's not from Myra, it's from somebody else." "Lord Longford." "Mr. Brady." "How good of you not to disappoint." "It's wonderful, isn't it, when people look exactly as you imagine?" "So this is my competition... this is who I'm up against." "Myra's new boyfriend." "She certainly picks 'em, doesn't she?" "I did a little bit of research before our meeting." "I'd say there's greater evidence of... mental instability in your past than mine." "Son and grandson to military heroes, you were invalided out of the army because of a mental breakdown." "Was it the full crack-up, I wonder... or were you just a coward?" "What can I do for you, Mr. Brady?" "I'd like to find my way back to God..." "Lord Longford." "Will you help me?" "Why, certainly, if that's what you..." "Don't you fuckin' dare." "You start with that pious mumbo-jumbo," "I will jump across that table and bite out your tongue." "No." "This present visit is for your benefit, not mine." "I want to tell you about Myra, who you no doubt believe is sincere in her religious conversion." "Let me tell you, that woman... cares no more about God than she cares about the piles in my ass." "What she cares about... is getting out." "And she thinks you'll help her." "But the minute your back is turned... she mocks you... for your silly hair and... and your clothes and your "self-important autobiographies only published because his family owns a bloody publishing house."" "What?" "She didn't tell you she was still writing to me?" "No." "Oh dear." "She probably didn't tell you she was fucking that little prison officer either... a nun." "They do it under the bed in her cell, apparently." "Four times a day." "She has a very high sex drive, our Myra." "It's the sort of detail you might want about your new girlfriend." "She needs it all the time." "Like a man in that way." "Like a man in other ways too." "She's strong." "That came in handy, as you can imagine... when they were wriggling and trying to get away." "Wait, you can't go yet." "I haven't finished with you." "Take my advice, go back to your other prisoners... nice, uncomplicated ones with broken noses and knuckle tattoos." "Stay clear of Myra because she will destroy you." "She certainly destroyed me." "And there... there's a thought you've not had before:" "that Myra egged me on... that without her, none of it would have happened." "Wait." "You're not yet dismissed!" "Listen to the tape, that's my advice, if you want to know what she's really like." "And when you do listen, bear this in mind... it was her that insisted they call us..." ""Mommy!"" "And "Daddy!" Not me!" "Are you all right, sir?" "Yes, all..." "all right, yes." " The Body of Christ." " Amen." "It's too late for church." "You're going straight to hell!" "I'm going to fucking kill you, you child-murdering bitch!" "You fucking bitch!" "Myra?" "Bless me, Father, for I have sinned." "It has been many years since my last confession." "It was so beautiful." "I gave my confession." "I told him everything that had happened and how sorry I was." "Then he put his hands on me and gave me a blessing." "Then we went to Mass and I was given the Eucharist." "I cried afterwards." "I know it won't change the past... bring back those poor children, but at least I know in the eyes of God I am forgiven." "Well, if you are forgiven by God, who are we to condemn you?" "She's done well." "Better than any of us imagined, frankly." "Father Kahle tells me their talks are going well." "She's registered to do an open university degree." "She treats the wardens and her fellow prisoners with courtesy." "And you really feel it's sincere?" "It's not some form of compliance or act?" "I visited Ian Brady and he made certain suggestions." "Ian Brady's a psychopath." "I wouldn't believe a word he says." "Prison is a relentless, 24-hour experience." "It's impossible to hide." "Who you are, what you think, no matter how hard you try, it will always come out." "Myra Hindley has, from the very beginning, been exposed to extreme provocation and bullying." "She's never once behaved in anything other than the most exemplary fashion." "As a matter of fact, as a sign of my confidence in her, there's something I've done over the years with the better-behaved, longer-tariffed prisoners which has always had good results." "Come on, boy." "Good." "All right?" "Stay close to me." "I will." "That's it." "Myra." "Here we are." "Come on." "Come up here, on this track here." "I'm tired." "Ideally, of course, I'd take you to the coast." "Or to mountains." "Somewhere in Scotland." "This isn't bad either." "He comes on the pitch!" "He tackles..." "Now, I want you to try something for me." "Take off your sunglasses." "Now your headscarf." "See?" "No one recognizes you." "At least there's one benefit of that awful photograph with the blonde hair." "How does it feel?" "Wonderful." "Well, this is how it will be for you one day... walking on the heath... on your way to work perhaps..." "Or to the shops." "Just an ordinary person." "Anonymous." "Free." "Just thought you might want to see these." "Mmm." "Oh, gracious me." "There's no question of Myra Hindley being granted parole." "Among those people who protested at her action in taking Hindley out for one and a half hours in a local park was Mr. Bill Palfrey, former chief constable of Lancashire." "And to let people out after eight years, whether it's a walk in the park," "I think is a lot of nonsense." "And somebody's living in a cuckoo-cuckoo land." "It's not the land I've lived in for 45 years." "I don't believe that this woman is fit to be let loose on society." "In my opinion, this was the worst murder this century." "I'm feeling the space all around me, the wind in my hair... and being able to see that far." "And I'm going to have to feed on those two hours because God only knows it's the only time I'm going to get out of here." " Now that's not true." " You've seen the papers." "What politician's going to grant me parole now?" "Well, perhaps that's where I come in." "What can you do?" "I can certainly explain why you were given the privilege of the walk in the first place." "Your good conduct in prison, your... return to the church." "And as a former Cabinet Minister," "I imagine I still have some standing." "Why would you do this?" "Because I like to think that after 40 years of visiting prisoners" "I've developed some sort of instinct about which ones are worth fighting for." "You look surprised." "Don't you think you're worth fighting for?" "Yes, of course." "So do I." "Before I start, there's one question I'm bound to ask you." "Yeah?" "Is there anything about your case or your personal circumstances you haven't told me?" "I don't think so." "Why?" "It's just that I intend to be talking about you in public a great deal and it'd be awful to have any... un... unpleasant surprises." " No." " Good." " Time!" " All right then." "Having serviced that, I see no reason why we can't forge ahead." "Are some crimes so appalling that their perpetrators should never walk free again?" "Or can anyone, whatever the crime, be delivered from evil?" "Lord Longford confronts Lord Hailsham." "If you had had the good fortunes of spending a great many hours in Myra Hindley's company, you would appreciate how different she is to the inflammatory reports one reads in the popular press." "You reject the idea that life should mean life..." "Yes, it's a totally un-Christian beastly idea." "Wicked really, I guess." "I'm allowed to have my opinion about that." "Other people think I'm wicked for saying the opposite, so you know..." "They don't think you're wicked, Frank." "They sometimes think you're a little foolish." "In my experience, very few women are real criminals in the sense that men are." "I think you'll find this view supported by sociologists." "Whatever she has done, she is entitled to be considered for parole." "Myra Hindley was an innocent young 18-year-old girl before she met Ian Brady." "She has now become herself again." "Lord Longford is talking about parole for Myra Hindley." "When will I get parole?" "I am serving a life sentence through that monster." "When will I get my parole?" "If she comes out, I'll be up for murder if I get my hands on that woman." "I said this to Lord Longford once and I'll say it again." "She will be one dead woman." "I mean, she will be one dead woman." " Mrs. West, for a minute..." " I want justice." "Ms. Billington!" "Can I borrow you for two seconds for a quick photo?" " Sorry." "I'll be right back." " Thank you so much." "Lord and Lady Longford, would you like to join the photograph?" " Oh, no..." " Please, sir." " Oh, hello!" " Just two seconds of your time, sir," " to support your daughter." " Oh come on, why not?" "Lord Longford, come on!" " Oh, all right, if you say so." " Thank you so much." " Dada." " Lady Longford." "Hello, Mom." "Lord Longford, how does it feel to be the father of such a famous author?" "Well, not hugely different from being the husband of one." "Lord Longford, on "Brass Tacks,"" "you told Anne West that Myra Hindley's a reformed character." " Yes, that is correct, yes." " Would you care to comment further?" "I haven't changed my view, if that's what you're asking." "The families of the victims have been particularly upset by this." "What do you have to say to them?" "Naturally, I feel the need for sympathy for the families, but I also believe that those of us without the necessary qualifications or experience in these matters should refrain from passing judgment." "So if it were you, you'd put Myra Hindley back on the streets?" "No, with all due respect, that is not what I said." "And if you had taken the actual time to read the article in question, you'd realize that I was merely suggesting that Ms. Hindley be treated fairly in comparison with other prisoners." "How could you... ruin the evening like that?" "I refuse to just stand there and watch as you sabotage your own daughter's achievements by campaigning for that..." "What?" "That woman." "This... preoccupation with Myra Hindley..." "I realize losing your job was a terrible blow and you're looking for something replace it." "But not her." "Couldn't you find someone else?" "Something else... for all our sakes!" "Yes." "Of course." "I've written to Rachel... to apologize." "It won't happen again." "I thought I'd go down to the Lords this afternoon." "Unless there's something you need me to do here." "Elizabeth?" "No, I don't think so." "There was a subsection on quality licensing, and particularly, the old paragraph B." "And there's the intention by the government to achieve a measure of quality licensing and this will be generally welcome." "That the normal role... the government never intended to say this and is now moving these two amendments..." "Look at this one." "She's got bandages on." "Want a better look?" "Dirty sod!" "What a pervert!" " Frank, it's harmless." " I disagree." "Completely harmless." "These things are read by children at a vulnerable age." "The boys on the bus can't have been more than 12." "And in our day, it was just the same." "Nothing like so graphic." "Or as available." "Look at it!" "Sexual arousal is proverbial and if boys grow up thinking that these kinds of breasts or... or this kind of submission is normal, they'll expect it in later life." "I'm afraid I'm with Marilyn Monroe on this." "When asked what she thought about sex, she thought for a moment then said she felt it was here to stay." "And if it is, then so is prostitution and pornography." "I found this book." "Studies have been done in America." "You'd be astonished at the detrimental effect it has." "If you feel that strongly about it, fine." "As long as it isn't Myra Hindley." ""Dear Frank..."" ""Where are you?" "Another month passes, and still I haven't heard from you."" " Good evening, sir." " Good evening." " Just looking." " Help yourself, sir." "Thank you." ""If I don't hear from you soon," "I shall have to assume that you no longer wish to represent me."" "I know what these are, but what's this?" " It's an anal stimulator." " Oh, thank you." ""Recently, I've seen you campaign against pornography."" "Pornography, it is my conviction, has increased, is increasing, and ought to be diminished." " This is hardcore." " And very heavily thumbed." "This would become freely available to children if our friends carried the motion." "Is this a show that is representative of what one gets in Denmark, in Copenhagen at the moment?" "Forget this one." ""I can only assume it is because you have lost interest or conviction in my cause."" "Do you think pictures of naked girls can be enjoyable, for instance?" "You mean at my age?" "No." "Oh, yes." " There's no age..." " What age should they cease to be... you should have to ask the younger members of the audience that." "Or the middle-aged ones." "I'm an elderly man and you'll have to take that answer from me." "Well, I wish you good luck." "I shall remember you always in my prayers." "Yours, Myra."" "Moors murderer Myra Hindley has been caught trying to escape jail with her lady prison officer lover." "Scotland Yard have been investigating an alleged escape plot in Holloway jail, and already a prison officer has been charged and is due to appear in court on February 1st." "I understand that Myra Hindley may also be brought before the same magistrates at the same time in connection with the same offense." "I can't believe you're going." "Have a heart." "I'm all she's got." "She has a solicitor, hasn't she?" "You gave me your word." "That woman just tried to break out of jail." "Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that I stopped visiting her." "Or with the fact that she's a hardened criminal." "Oh, come along." "You're sounding like a tabloid editorial." "Maybe in this instance, they're right." "Had you considered that?" "I'll give you a ring from London." "Hello, Reg." "Can we go to the station, please?" "Silly man." "Hello, Myra." "I'm sorry, Frank." "I just got so bleak." "I thought you'd given up on me." "Nonsense." "Suddenly I had a vision of the fact that" "I'm going to be here forever, without no supporters." "Not at all, not at all." "Patricia had this idea of Brazil." "There are these slums outside Sao Paulo where they're crying out for help." "What's the sense in keeping us in here when I could be out there doing good?" "That's what I want to do is good." "And instead..." "I've just made everything worse." "Now I've got to go to court." "The case is going to get sent down." "We're never going to see one another again." "You never know." "Help me, please." "Listen, keep praying, Myra." "That's the most important thing." "Keep praying." "Oh, for pity's sake, woman." "Order!" "We will have silence in this courtroom." "Quiet!" "My view, as an experienced prison visitor, is that Myra Hindley is a good Christian woman..." "Making a determined effort to make amends for her past, and to do good in the future." "There are those that say you're under Ms. Hindley's thrall." "How would you respond to that?" "Well, it may or may not be so, at least the supervising officer was present at all times, to ensure that nothing untoward took place." "Myra Hindley, you are already the subject of a life sentence." "And properly so." "I am sentencing you to a further 12 months, to run concurrently." "I pass it in the hope that if in future... and it think it should be a remote event... people ever consider you for parole, then the activities of this case should be recorded and remembered." "Take them down." "so she's going to be moved, is she?" " Durham." " Oh, no." "Very predictable, I'm afraid." "I had hoped for somewhere more progressive." "Durham... it couldn't be worse." "Morning, sir." " Is this everything?" " Yes." " Good." " Thanks, thanks a lot." " Goodbye." " See you tomorrow." "Well, look who it is." "It's Lord Porn." "I told you to leave her alone, Frank." "But you didn't, and now look." "Half the country has you earmarked as a lackey, the other as a gullible fool." "So I'm going to tell you again, nice and slow so you don't forget it." "leave..." "Myra Hindley... alone." "Or she will do to you what she did to me." "She will destroy you." "I can see that for a man in your circumstances, it must be comforting to blame it on someone else." "Are you going to blame her for your hunger strike too?" "My hunger strike is a legitimate protest against the filthy conditions here." "Then why didn't you allow me to make representations to the home secretary on your behalf?" "'Cause I'm not completely insane." "If I wanted to set my cause back a decade or two, if I wanted to be denied all exercise, if I wanted to have them piss in my food as well as spit in it, then I'd ask a batty old pornography campaigner" "and Myra Hindley's whipping boy to make representations on my behalf." "Thank you." " Now..." " An hysteric." "Some of the... that's what she is." "Are you familiar with the term in its strict clinical use?" "No." "An hysteric is someone who gives to people, reflects back to them that which they believe makes them most acceptable, most likeable... what they think others want to see." "Myra Hindley is a classic hysteric." "It explains why to you she's a virtuous churchgoing angel, and to her cool prisoners and dykes, a strong woman with a soft heart." "And to me..." "She was a brutal sadist and a cruel killer with not an ounce of remorse in her." "If she is this girl to you, why did you insist on her innocence in the trial?" "Because I loved her." "How could you not love a girl like that?" "Come on, Frank." "Don't look like that." "You know exactly what I'm talking about." "I've spoken to the prison governor about having you reassessed as a mental case." "Deny it, Frank." "Look me in the eye and tell me you weren't a little sweet on her yourself." "And now you're on this white charger, riding in to save his damsel." ""Save me, Lord Longford." "Save me."" "Elizabeth?" "Elizabeth?" " Elizabeth?" " In here." "Oh, there you are?" "What are you doing?" "I've been reading Myra's letters." "I hope you don't mind." "Well, there's the fire." "Go and burn them." "I don't have the stomach for this anymore." "Oh." "It's just... the last time we disagreed so passionately about anything, was over your joining the Catholic church and I think we both agree on that matter... you were right." "So with regard to Ms. Hindley," "I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt." "So I came into your study, and read her letters..." "And found them very interesting." "And was thinking how much I'd like to meet her." "Passport and visiting order, please?" "Visiting order?" "As a member of the House of Lords, I don't need a visiting order." "You should know that by now." " Sorry, sir." " Thank you." "Thank you." "Good morning." " Good morning." " Good morning." " Undo the overcoat, please." " Yes, of course." " Arms out, sir." " Stand over there for me." " I see." " Your arms up with your legs slightly apart." "Is it really necessary for Lady Longford to take her coat off?" "Turn towards me, please." "Thank you." "Ridiculous." "Hardly likely to be smuggling anything." "Dad, I miss you." "I really really have." "I don't understand." "I can only see male prisoners." "That's because they built the women's prison into the heart of the men's." " Myra Hindley?" " Yes." "There she is." "Oh dear." "Be quiet!" "Be quiet!" "Where's your humanity?" "Silence!" "For pity's sake." "Hello, Myra." "Myra?" "Myra?" " Myra?" " It's okay." "She can hear ya." "It's just the medication." "Myra..." "I brought someone with me." "My wife Elizabeth." " How do you do?" " How do you do?" "I was so enjoying your book." "That... one about Queen Victoria." "But they wouldn't let me bring it here." "They've... taken all my books." "I'm not allowed them." "They just came... one day." "Men with guns... in a helicopter." "Myra?" "What have they given her?" ""The liquid kosh," we call it." "It's a mixture of tranqs, antidepressants and sleepers." "Most of the new prisoners go on it to cope with the shock of this place." "She had a particularly rough welcome." "A lot of the women in here are mothers, you can imagine." "People have smeared shit on the walls of her room." "Pretty much all her food is tampered with." "The only safe thing for her to eat is boiled eggs and sweets in wrappers." "I like sweets." "It's horrific." "I had no idea." "How can we do that to people?" "And you have to get her off that stuff." "It's inhuman." "How long has she been in prison now?" "14 years." "And the average term served by a life prisoner?" "12 years." "And still, she's been given no prospect of parole." "No." "You said the trial judge made a distinction between her case and Ian Brady's." "I quote, "Though I believe" "Brady is wicked beyond belief," "I cannot feel the same is necessarily true of Hindley when she is removed from his influence."" "End of quote." "Really?" "...who between the wars, converted more people to Catholicism..." "How's the Queen Mother coming along?" "Rather slowly, I'm afraid." "I've got bogged down researching something else." "Can you say what?" "Myra Hindley." "What?" "Why?" "...what a meddler." "It seemed to me that for years I have been merrily attacking your father for supporting her without having the slightest idea of what I was talking about." " And there you go." " And?" "And I must say my eyes have been opened rather." "How much do you know about the nature of sadomasochistic relationships?" "Mercifully, very little." "Isn't it an accepted psychological fact that daughters seek in their husbands or lovers someone who mirrors their own father?" "One of the papers claimed that Myra Hindley was abused by her father." "So it makes perfect sense that she would then repeat the pattern with Ian Brady, who subjected her to the most appalling cruelty, beating her, raping her, threatening to take her life." "I see." "So it's not her fault she procured children for him?" "She made repeated attempts to free herself of him, running away to London." "But every time came back... funny that." "Isn't that the nature of obsession?" "The fear of losing Brady was greater than anything else." "And you got all this from?" "The public records' office, where I read the original trial transcripts, and I spoke to Dorothy Wing, her former governor at Holloway." "But... ironically, the thing that finally persuaded me to offer her my help was the very same thing that had so made me hate her in the first place:" "the fact that she is a woman." "Did you know there have been half a dozen similar child murders?" "The reason none of us has heard about them is because the killers in each case were men." "And men being sadistic violent killers isn't a story." "Incidentally, in each case the men have also been paroled." "Note the reason Myra Hindley is still in jail and has never been considered for parole is because she is a woman." "And for that reason, she will always have my understanding, if not my sympathy." "So when did you go to the public records office?" "When I said I was going to the Bodleian." "And Governor Wing, when did you visit her?" "When I said I was having lunch with my agent." "So now I must add mendacity to your many virtues." "And you'd have me continue my campaign?" "Yes... and not rest until she gets paroled." "Have you spoken to Willie about it?" "Whitelaw?" "No, not one to one, no." "Then I suggest you do that." "What a very good idea." "I don't think I've ever loved you quite so completely as I do now." " A new high?" " Off the charts." "Top of the pops." "Get into bed, woman!" "I've got to get my dressing gown off." "I've got to take my shoes off." "The Home Secretary will see you now." "Thank you so much." " Frank, good to see you." " My dear fellow." " How good of you to see me." " Not at all." " Come on in." " Thank you." " Sherry?" " You know me too well." "She's served almost 15 years, Willie." "It's a scandal she hasn't been considered for parole." "I know." "But as Home Secretary," "I have to make sure that public confidence in the system is not undermined." "If you wish to protect the integrity of the system," "I suggest you stop allowing it to be ruled" " according to the will of the mob." " Frank, look..." "At least allow her to be interviewed by a local parole board." "For me?" "What harm could that do?" "Couldn't she be moved somewhere better?" "Durham is insufferable." "I'll see what I can do." "If anyone deserves to be in..." "Frank!" "You really are a most tenacious campaigner, you know?" "It's an admirable trait." "And you always pick the most difficult causes." "Maybe you should take a back seat for a while." "God knows you deserve it." "I can't, Willie." "You know what they say:" ""Only dead fish swim with the stream."" "Thank you very much." "Thank you." "Goodbye." "There's good news." "Willie has agreed for Myra to be seen by the local parole board." "And she's going to be moved from Durham." "Oh, Frank, that's wonderful." "Imagine, if they find in her favor, and the National Board agrees, that would put enormous pressure on the Home Secretary." "Then the only thing that will stand in our way will be public opinion." "So we must keep a lid on this, because if the press get even the merest hint of it, we'll be scuppered." "Fred Harrison?" "Top local reporter." "Come on, man, smile." "This is your lucky day." "You are about to get a story on the front page of every paper in the country." "Word has reached me that Myra Hindley is being considered for parole." "I wasn't aware of that." "No, friend, that's what makes it an exclusive." "Turn your tape recorder on, there's a good lad." "Morning, Lord Longford." "Good morning." "You certainly are in high spirits today." "Yes, we are." "A bit of a break, so I believe, for Ms. Hindley." "Yeah, don't worry." "Just goes to show, if you keep persisting and persisting..." "Hello, Myra." "This is the nightie you wanted." "I couldn't remember what color you asked for." "That's great, thanks." " Now to business." " Frank..." "I have a friend on the local parole board who tells me that your application will be considered next month." "If that goes well, all things being equal," " the national..." " Frank, enough." "The police have been to see me." "Brady's talked to the press about the other bodies." "What do you mean, what other bodies?" "Pauline Reade and the Bennett boy." "He hasn't given them any details yet... but he says he knows where they're buried." "Before he grabs the initiative," "I've decided to come clean and tell them everything I know." "But you know nothing about other bodies." "You told me as much yourself." "What are you saying?" "I'm saying... that I'm going to give a full confession to all five murders." "Dear God." "I asked you specifically if there was anything you hadn't told me." "I've staked my name on this, my reputation." "I know." "And I would understand perfectly if you never wanted to see me again." "It's what my new solicitor's suggested anyway." "Your new solicitor?" "He feels... and if I'm honest, I have to agree with him... the campaign that you've conducted on my behalf has hurt me more than helped me, and that we should make this our last meeting." "I see." "If that's what he feels, and you feel." "Goodbye, Frank." "An hour after first light, a police helicopter carrying Myra Hindley and an armed bodyguard, landed on the A635... the road used by Hindley and Brady when they were carrying the bodies of their victims up to the moors." "A small group including Myra Hindley then inspected the peat slopes." "Myra, we do know it's been a long time, but you know, are we in the right spot?" "Myra, we need to know if this is the spot." "Can you be sure, Myra?" "Have a look around." "Where in relation to the group?" " I recognize the rocks behind you." " You certain?" "Yes yes, I'm certain." "Hindley led the police to areas she and Brady visited more than 20 years ago." "In a pub two miles away:" "Pat Kilbride, whose son John was murdered 21 years ago." "He'd come armed with a knife, but was stopped at a roadblock." "Just want to say..." "this here," "I've come prepared to kill her." "She has confessed that she is guilty of participating in these crimes so that she would be guilty of the crime of murder, yes." "Throughout the morning, friends and relatives arrived at the Reade family home to pay..." "I'm so sorry." "This is all my fault." "If I hadn't read her letters and insisted on meeting her... because you'd already decided to let her go." "As the cortege made its way through the Courtland area of Manchester, neighbors stood silently in memory of Pauline." "Later, her body was interred at a nearby cemetery." "More than two decades after her death, the family were at last able to lay their daughter to rest." "I'll call the police." "Get rid of the photographers." "At graveside, the mother of Lesley Ann Downey, yet another child murdered on the moors." "For Pauline Reade, the last chapter of her tragic life has been written." "John Draper, ITN, Manchester." "Forgive me, Father, for I have sinned." "It has been some weeks since my last confession, during which time much has changed." "My actions have hurt my family... my friends, and not to mention the families of the victims." "Now I ask God for His guidance," "His strength, and above all His compassion." "For in His perfection, he forgives all His creatures." "I beseech you, Lord, forgive me." "And give me strength to follow your immaculate example... so that I might put aside my personal hurt... and forgive this woman." "Shh." "Go on, sit." "You're all right." "Shh." "Shh." "What's the matter with you?" "Gonna get real fucking angry if you don't hurry up." "What's that look for?" "If you don't shush," "I'll have to shut your mouth for you." "And I'll forget myself, and I'll hit you once more." "Will you stop it?" "Stop it." "Stop it." "So many questions to ask you, such a long and distinguished career, but I'm gonna start with the book." "What prompted you to write it?" "As a lifelong Christian and scholar," "I've always been interested in ideas of sanctity." "But more than that, I think it was probably the entirely selfish desire to spend a little time with my heroes." "Do you have a favorite?" "A favorite?" "Hey, what a question." "I commend you for distilling so succinctly such a complex subject." "Hey, Myra, I think your Frankie boy is on the radio." " Lord Porn." " Dismas of Calvary, the thief crucified next to Jesus." "I've always been drawn to outcasts and people on the fringes of society." "And St. Dismas, having spent most of his life as a violent criminal, the miracle of his repentance at the end on the cross..." "Yes, I think he would have to have my vote." "Interesting." "The time is coming up to 20 past 2:00." "We're gonna take some calls." "David, what's your question about the saints?" "I want to know how your esteemed guest can look himself in the mirror each morning." "I'm assuming this is a question about Myra Hindley." "How could you rub salt in the wounds of the families like that, campaigning on behalf of that monster?" "I certainly take exception to that description, but I made it quite clear before coming on this program that I would not be answering questions about Ms. Hindley today." "Of course." "Next caller is Judy who's in Sheppey." "My call is also about Ms. Hindley." "In view of everything we now know about it, don't you regret having supported her all that time?" "Once again, madam, I'm afraid I must decline to answer questions about her." "It's a simple answer, Lord Longford... yes or no." "Do you regret it?" "Not at all." "As a matter of fact," "I consider my visiting Myra Hindley, and indeed all the other prisoners" "I visited for over 50 years, to be one of the great blessings of my life." "Now perhaps we could get back to the subject of saints." "Well, hasn't she betrayed you?" "She's ruined your good name." "She's taken all of the hard work you did for her and thrown it back in your face." "Um... yes." "Perhaps there's some truth in that." "Forgiving her has proven difficult, very difficult." "Not for what she's done to me... that's neither here nor there... but for the terrible crimes themselves." "Forgiveness is the very cornerstone of my faith." "And the struggle to deepen my faith is my life's journey." "In that respect, she has enriched my spiritual life beyond measure, and for that I will always be grateful to her." "If people think that makes me weak or mad, so be it." "That is the path I am committed to..." "To love the sinner but hate the sins..." "To assume the best in people and not the worst..." "To believe that anyone, no matter how evil, can be redeemed, eventually." "Right." "The time is coming up to 2:20." "Lord Longford is with us for the next couple of hours." "And our switchboard looks like it's about to explode." "Next caller, Lionel in Seven Oaks." "Look at you!" "Which prison were you at today?" "Carlisle." "The train was delayed coming back, I'm afraid." "Snow on the tracks." "Carlisle." "You must be mad." "You're too old for this." "I'm going to get rid of all the requests that aren't local from now on." " Oh, look." " What?" "This one's from Myra." "Hello, Frank." "Oh, there you are." "Hello." "Goodness." "How well you look." "Rubbish." "My hair is falling out and I'm dying of emphysema." "Well, you still look wonderful to me." "Well, you're blind." "Nearly, yes." "Frank, the reason why I've asked to see you today..." "I made up my mind that if there was one thing" "I was going to do before it was too late, it would be to apologize to you in person." "Those are terrible things I did to you..." "Lying to you like that." "I'm sorry." "I couldn't tell you everything, Frank." "In prison, you never tell anyone everything." "And your full confession before God..." "Was that a lie too?" "I'm trying, Frank." "I'm really trying to know the God that you know." "But if you'd been there that night on the moors in the moonlight when we did the first one, then you'd know that evil can be a spiritual experience too." "You know we only missed it by a few weeks." " What?" " The death sentence." "They abolished it while we were still on remand." "Looking back, don't you think it would have been better for everyone if they'd just hung us?" "Certainly not." "Only God has the right to take human life." "Would he have not wanted to give the families that comfort?" "None of us knows the true purpose of our lives on Earth." "Besides... had you been hanged, I would never have had the privilege of getting to know you." "You really believe that, don't you?" "It must be rather a nice place to be." "Where?" "Inside your head." "Oh, I'm not so sure about that." "A fine pair we are then." "Yes."