"(GARY RUSSELL) Welcome back." "This is episode three, and I'm with the director, Richard Martin, the producer, Verity Lambert, and lovely actress, Carole Ann Ford." "Verity, before we ended last time, you were talking about interference on high from the BBC and memos." "Yes, well, we regularly got memos." "I think the first one I had was on the very first Doctor Who that we did, which was set in the cave era." "It all went well until we put on the sound dub." "We had, off screen, somebody's head being bashed in, and we did it in the normal way with a cabbage." "The director was Waris Hussein." "It just sounded too realistic and I was made to cut it out." "I had one of those director-producer confrontations." "I didn't want to take it out either but I was absolutely ordered to." "Poor Waris, who didn't want it taken out, said, "Why should I do it?"" "and I said something I've never had to say since " ""Because I'm the producer and I say so!"" "(CAROLE) Was it substituted by another noise?" "(VERITY) It was substituted by a far less awful noise." "(GARY) Richard, were you ever told to cut things out against your will?" "The only thing was the interior shot of the Dalek where we'd got this wonderful moving gunge which Verity didn't like, and said, quite rightly probably, destroyed the mystery." "I don't think I was ever told not to be violent, because some of this is quite violent." "(VERITY) I think what we did try to do was not..." "When we had violence, we had to be real about it." "It wasn't there to titillate." "It came naturally out of the story." "We did have to be quite careful about what sort of instruments were used." "It couldn't be household objects." "There was one occasion when we had a very legitimate complaint in a later Doctor Who, where Carole Ann picked up a pair of scissors, and I have to tell you, the roof fell in." "We were from the drama department, and the children's department weren't very pleased about that." "They immediately all wrote these memos saying how irresponsible and it would never have happened if they'd made the programme." "They were quite right, and we never did it again." "It was just that thing of kids can pick up domestic objects." "So if you look at it, you'll never see everyday items used... ..at least, I hope we don't!" "(CAROLE) Except the sink plunger in front of the Dalek!" "(RICHARD) You're welcome to use the sink plunger as feverishly as you may!" "(CAROLE) Actually, to be prodded by those things was intensely annoying." "It had the right effect." "To be pushed around by those things, it really made you want to get back at them!" "(VERITY) There's the "Vetoed" sign." "Was that "Vetoed" because...?" "That's the "omit" sign, is it, Richard?" "(RICHARD) That's right." "(VERITY) That's your little private joke!" "(GARY) Here we have the black Dalek in his first appearance." "(CAROLE) What's he inside?" "(VERITY) He's underneath the floor." "(GARY) It has a marvellous, almost French Resistance feel to all of this." "You know just by looking at the set and the way he's sitting that there's a sudden misery come over everything." "(RICHARD) The dressing makes these television sets, and a good dresser will create them very substantially." "All that is is a run of flats at the back and a table." "(GARY) It must have been very frustrating for Daphne Dare to have all these costumes and have to rip them up!" "(VERITY) She was wonderful, Daphne." "A very, very good costume designer." "Look at all these clothes." "They absolutely don't look like new." "They all look crummy and well-worn and real." "(GARY) Daphne worked on an awful lot of the Doctor Whos." "Verity, were you keen to have the same people doing that sort of job, or was that just coincidence?" "If they did it well, I definitely tried to get the same people." "Spencer Chapman and Raymond Cusick did a lot of the Doctor Whos." "We had the same lighting." "John Treays did a lot of the lighting." "Usually, it was the same camera crew because you worked like a team." "We were working very fast." "We did one a week." "We had four days' rehearsal, a day in the studio to camera rehearse, and then we recorded it that night, so if you got people who'd worked on the show and who enjoyed it and knew what it was about, it saved time." "(CAROLE) They understood what you wanted." "(GARY) Did that make life easier for you?" "(RICHARD) Yes, to have the same camera crew and a good designer, and to have your friends about you when you're under pressure..." "There was astonishing pressure." "I'm not a very good studio director." "I haven't got an electronic brain, but you gear yourself up to that electronic speed, and if you've got your friends around you and a wonderful PA - and there were some marvellous PAs - and Clive Doig did a lot of the mixing." "He was brilliant." "I'd give him a camera script with 20 cuts on one page to make it look exciting." "I'd try and call them and you couldn't - "Cut three, cut one", like that." "Clive gently squeezed my arm and said," ""Richard, I can read." "Let me do this page!" And he was brilliant." "(VERITY) He was a very good vision mixer." "(RICHARD) He became a director." "(VERITY) And he produces as well." "He has his own company, I think." "(CAROLE) Rhythm has a lot to do with atmosphere." "Fast cutting can build up tension." "(RICHARD) You have to look for the reason to cut." "Good ones can do that." "Oh, the wobbly pie crust!" "This was desperation, this little bit." "This was under this two foot three platform that formed the centre of... (VERITY) It looks pretty good, though." "It looks like you would logically have the workings of the thing underneath." "(CAROLE) That looks solid, that fireplace-looking thing." "(RICHARD) It looks fireplacey, despite the up and downeries above it." "(GARY) Are we going to have a bit of violence?" "(RICHARD) A very gentle fight." "Well done, Bill!" "Nothing like the left-handed knee trip!" "(VERITY) They were curiously..." "I suppose they were robots and weren't used to people tripping them up." "(RICHARD) We should have been more Frankenstein about them." "A tube going up their nostril would have been good!" "(GARY) You were saying, Verity, about the use of scissors and things being not allowed, and bad noises, were you also aware of physical violence?" "Was that something that in the sixties they were very hot on, or could you get away with that?" "(VERITY) There were..." "I always think implied violence is quite often worse than what you actually see, particularly when you're doing things like we were doing." "You can't have a fight arranger and stop all the time, so it looks a bit cack-handed." "I don't think we had a huge amount of overt violence in Doctor Who, but there were violent situations." "Where that was necessary, we didn't avoid them." "There is quite a lot of violence in this - people shooting each other... (RICHARD) At the beginning, they turn over the guy and there's a knife in his back." "(VERITY) It's there but you don't see it going in." "(CAROLE) You don't see the blood, and the body twitching like you do now." "It was "Bang!" "You're dead!" It was like kids playing." "(RICHARD) There's a sort of navety about the whole thing, and it annoys me and charms me at the same time, but I'm looking at it with wrong eyes." "You're thinking, "Oh!" "If I'd have done that better!"" "(VERITY) Considering what we had to do it, it's pretty good." "Yes, I look and think, "Goodness, you wouldn't do that now!"" "But you didn't have that freedom." "(RICHARD) We're getting the beginning of the love interest." "(CAROLE) Ooh, silence, please!" "(VERITY) This is very interesting because this is really well handled." "(GARY) As you say, implied violence!" "A perfect example of it really!" "(VERITY) Which was quite frightening." "You knew something horrible was happening but you..." "Sometimes, it's good not to see things." "(CAROLE) The proof of the pudding with these old things is that young children, with all the technology that they have to amuse them, and all the violence that they see nowadays, they enjoy watching these!" "I go to conventions and things, and young fans come up, and I think, "They've come with their parents who watch it", and I chat to them, and they really do enjoy watching these old ones." "(GARY) What do you think it is that these black and white Doctor Whos, when the kids have got so much sophisticated stuff to do these days, what is it that does capture their imaginations?" "I ask them and they say, "We like the stories."" "That's what it's all about, isn't it?" "(VERITY) They like the stories and I think they like the characters." "They believe in the characters and want to follow them through the stories." "(CAROLE) They like it being in black and white." "It's more atmospheric." "(VERITY) There's something coming up where black and white makes it look astonishingly good." "(RICHARD) It's a high art medium." "I love it." "(GARY) During the seventies, everyone was very excited to work in colour, then back in the eighties, they started making films in black and white." "(RICHARD) Yes, once we got over the first hype, we realised that it was difficult to use the same sort of focus concentrations, because colour and colorimetry tends to distract the eye, whereas here, if you've lit the centre well..." "(VERITY) Is this where we drop the Doctor?" "(CAROLE) That was nasty, wasn't it?" "He really hurt himself." "(VERITY) That's why he was out of one episode." "He hardly appeared in it." "(RICHARD) It was when poor Richard ran down the ramp that it happened." "(VERITY) Hmm, something bad is going to happen!" "(GARY) There we go!" "(VERITY) There obviously wasn't room for two Daleks!" "(CAROLE) This really is nasty." "(VERITY) I love this bit." "This is my other favourite bit." "I think this is so effective." "(RICHARD) And we couldn't have done this now." "It was six o'clock in the morning by the time we got down here." "(VERITY) It was just when it was getting light." "We got permission." "We had to do it on a Sunday and we had to finish before ten o'clock because we would have caused traffic jams and things." "Isn't this wonderful?" "(CAROLE) They ARE rushing along there!" "Look at that!" "(RICHARD) That's what made me hated by Robert Jewell." "He couldn't stop!" "He went bombing along into Camberwell!" "(VERITY) I went with the Daleks on the lorry, and I remember driving through London, and there would be early morning workers." "On a Sunday in those days, nothing happened." "Everything was closed." "But there would be people up, people who had night jobs, and people would just see this lorry go by with all these Daleks on it!" "I think some of them thought, "What the (BLEEP!" ") is going on?" " "Was there some kind of invasion?" - (CAROLE) I wonder if MPs were watching?" "(THEY ALL TALK AT ONCE)" "(GARY) How did you do that shot of the Dalek's eye view there?" " Is that a simple thing?" " (RICHARD) Yes." "(CAROLE) Look at this!" "(VERITY) It looks wonderful." "(RICHARD) It was about six o'clock." "We worked backwards from Trafalgar Square." "Trafalgar Square was empty except for some hippies in the corner who kept waving at us." "This shot was very difficult to do." "(VERITY) It's just so surreal, really, to see those..." "(GARY) You had about four hours to do all this, and you go from Westminster Bridge to Trafalgar Square to the Albert Memorial." "How did you get the Daleks from A to B?" "(VERITY) On the lorry." "(RICHARD) Verity got them on the lorry and stayed with them." "(CAROLE) She gets up speed there!" "(VERITY) Look at the wheelchair!" "Richard, this is excellent." "(RICHARD) This was Peter Sargent." "(VERITY) I hope I wrote you a memo saying "This is excellent!"" "I just think it's such good value." "(GARY) That's a very Nazi salute the Daleks are giving there." "Was that deliberate?" "It was only 25 years since the Second World War had ended, and the Daleks are very Nazi-ish." " Did you tell them to do that?" " (RICHARD) I can't remember." "(VERITY) They were quite limited as to what they could do, basically." "They did what they could." "(RICHARD) That was the last shot we took, and already, as we pan left, you'll see some people coming." "(CAROLE) Is that the theatre?" "(VERITY) Yes." "(RICHARD) See the people in the background?" "The whistle was blown on us." "(GARY) That was the Albert Hall, I think." "(CAROLE) Was it?" "(RICHARD) Yeah." "We couldn't go wider because people were coming." "I would love to have shot this in a remote wing of the Science Museum, but we're back in the studio." "(CAROLE) That decapitated dummy looks a bit nasty, actually!" "(VERITY) Even though I watched it recently," "I still find myself listening to what's going on." "And I love our milk cart with some milk bottles!" "I bet the milk was really sour!" "(GARY) I love this idea of Daleks sticking "Vetoed" on everything at the museum." "(CAROLE) Not knowing what the hell it is!" "(GARY) "Humans like this, so we'll say it's vetoed."" "(RICHARD) I'd like to have seen them do it." "It would have been electronic." "(CAROLE) Why is that old bike there?" "It's the year 2,000 and... (VERITY) This is a museum." "(CAROLE) I see!" "(RICHARD) They're hiding out in the Museum of Transport, but we were very limited for our props." "(VERITY) You've got a wonderful dust cart which I'm sure is called..." "Is it called "Aling" or something?" "They've taken the "E" off Ealing." "(RICHARD) We blew up a model, didn't we, of the dust cart?" "(VERITY) Yes, very effectively." "That was very, very effective." "(RICHARD) There's lovely Annie." "(VERITY) I think this is a very touching scene that's coming up." "(CAROLE) Are we ever told what's inside that bomb?" "(VERITY) No, I don't think so." "(CAROLE) Being so tiny, it must be something pretty horrendous to do damage." "(VERITY) If it works!" "(CAROLE) And are we told how he hurt his legs?" "(VERITY) No, but I'm sure it's fighting the Daleks." "(CAROLE) Of course!" "(GARY) There's a marvellous sense of doom with what he's doing." "(VERITY) It's a very touching scene, this, I think." "(GARY) Where was this bit done?" "(RICHARD) Now we're back opposite here." "It's the old White City exhibition halls, which were turned into factories and then abandoned." "(CAROLE) That rubble would be a fairly effective barrier to the Daleks." "(CAROLE LAUGHS)" "(CAROLE) I love that!" "(RICHARD) Another little joke of mine!" "(VERITY) It certainly made Carole laugh!" "(CAROLE) I haven't seen it since I actually did it." "It's all fresh to me." "I keep stopping because I want to watch it." "(GARY) Carole, what are your overriding memories of William Hartnell?" "I actually really enjoyed working with him." "We had a very, very good relationship." "The only thing is that I think that he rather..." "The edges of reality and the part were blurred with him." "There were times when he really seemed to think that I was his granddaughter!" "He was always telling me how to behave, what to say, what to wear, what not to do." "We used to have little arguments about those sort of things." "He was just wonderful." "He was a very touchy-feely person as you can see." "His hands were always on you." "His hands were always touching my shoulder or my hair." "I'm a very tactile person, too, so it's lovely to work with another tactile actor, because not all actors are tactile." "You soon learn this in rehearsals, actors that don't like to be touched, and it's quite difficult to work with them if they don't, because in speaking, I use my hands a lot, and in acting I do, too." "Bill was the same." "It was lovely." "Actually, he sent me a very, very sweet and touching letter when I said I wanted to go, and I've still got it, saying how much he wanted me to stay and couldn't I reconsider." "Very nice." "(VERITY) I think he really loved that first team very much." "(CAROLE) He did." "It was like family." "(VERITY) And he really loved playing the Doctor." "Absolutely believed in that character completely." "(CAROLE) I was very fond of him." "Of course, at this time, he hadn't developed the touchiness that later actors have told me made him difficult to work with." "I know he was ill" " I didn't at the time." "(VERITY) I think that was partly to do with his illness, actually." "(CAROLE) I had no idea he was ill." "He was a perfectionist, and if he saw people doing things that he didn't approve of, he wasn't backward in saying so!" "(RICHARD) He had a hell of a row with management at one time, Verity." "Who was it with?" "I remember calming him down in the bar afterwards." "I remember him saying, "I want to work again!" "I want to work again!"" "(VERITY) I can't imagine who it was." "It could have been any one of a number of people." "I know once when he'd been particularly forgetful," "I had to tell him that he should spend a bit more time learning his lines, and he was very, very upset and stormed out, but then the next day sent me this huge bunch of flowers." "(CAROLE) That's the sort of thing he did." "We used to go up to the bar at TV Centre afterwards, and I used to order champagne cocktail because I loved and still do love champagne, and, again blurring the edges of reality, he thought that at my age, I shouldn't be drinking," "never mind the fact that I was married with a small child, and he used to quite vociferously say, to my embarrassment," ""Put that down!" "How dare you drink?"" "I took it for a while and then I just exploded at him," ""Mind your own business!"" "A few days later, he bought me a jeroboam of champagne to say sorry." "(VERITY) He was very..." "I liked him enormously." "And he was quite like the character, a bit unpredictable." "He could be quite irascible and other times absolutely sweet." "(CAROLE) He had a very soft centre." "He was genuinely concerned for people." "(VERITY) He was very, very loyal." "And here we are, on the end of this." "(RICHARD) That bomb is so naff!" "(LAUGHTER)" "(VERITY) "It's a bomb!" (RICHARD) "It's a naff bomb!"" "(CAROLE) "You WILL believe it!"" "I worked with Julian Chagrin." "A very clever man." " He was a mime artist." " (VERITY) Yes, I remember." "I remember sitting in the dubbing theatre with Francis Chagrin, thinking, "Gosh, I'm sitting with the great..."" "He did all those old movies." "He was really well known."