"Tonight on Dragons' Den..." "You name her the Don." " I'm happy." " And then you call Peter Jones the jerk." "Is that your prediction, that every household in the country will own one of those?" "You have now moved into argument mode." "Take a deep breath and focus on the business." "You're too niche." "I think you'll really, really struggle, if I'm being honest." "Oh, yes!" "Oh, yes!" "Now we're talking!" "I'm going to make you an offer." "Welcome to Dragons' Den, a place of aspiration and perspiration, where entrepreneurs with big business dreams meet our wealthy investors who have big cash to invest." "First into the Den is Leeds-based Danny Savage, an entrepreneur who has a point to prove." "When I was younger, my headteachers would always either say," ""You're going to be a millionaire or you're going to end up in jail!"" "That spurs me on to make myself something." "I'm hoping the Dragons will see my flair and my creative side and my drive and determination to succeed." "Others stand to benefit from an investment today." "Watching in the wings are his dad Peter, and sales manager James." "Do your best, Danny." "I think he'll do really, really well." "And I think he's investable and I think they'll like working with him." ""My name is Danny Savage."" "To have the investment is going to take us to the next level." "It's going to be an escalator rather than the stairs or, you know, a lift, rather than a ladder." "But will the Dragons be prepared to speed Danny's financial ascent?" "# I've been sitting in the corner looking round" "# And I've been watching you" "# Undressing you now with my eyes, you look surprised" "# I'm coming home with you... #" "Peter is not happy, is he?" "Probably because he's getting all the smoke in his face!" "Hello, Dragons!" "My name is Danny Savage." "I'm here for £80,000 for a 20% share in Igloo Disco." "I'd like us to close our eyes and try and replay your most memorable party experience." "Off you go!" "Time is up." "My most memorable party experience, I was dressed as a cavalier, covered head to toe in mud," "DJ-ing to 2,000 soaking revellers at Glastonbury Festival from an ice cream van." "It was at this moment I realised that in my ten years of being an award-winning club promoter, DJ and event manager, that creating amazing party experiences is what I was born to do." "Shortly after, Igloo Disco was born." "We are now a market leader in unique pop-up events, saving our clients time, money and stress when planning and delivering parties with a unique memorable twist." "25% of our bookings over the last two years have been 18th birthday parties." "This market is worth £750 million." "If we were to target just 1% of this niche market, this would generate revenue of £1 million." "Igloo Disco is a family business." "In our first year, we turned over £80,000, with a net profit of £31,000." "In year two, we turned over £208,000, with a net profit of £3,000." "With the right Dragons investment, we plan to strengthen our core operations and expand into an ever-growing market." "Thank you for your time." "I'd like to invite you to come up and have a dance, if you like!" "DANCE MUSIC PLAYS" "A cool pitch from igloo entrepreneur Danny Savage." "He hopes to persuade the Dragons to part with £80,000 in return for a 20% share of his pop-up party package." "Is this an igloo for ten-year-olds?" " For normal-sized people, Peter." " Oh." "I don't think this would work for me." "No." "It may not be tech giant Peter Jones's natural environment, but will the rest of the Den dance to Danny's tune?" "Thanks, Luke." " He's great." " Deborah Meaden takes the lead with the questions." "I think you might have been hoping for dancing Dragons." "But there's not an awful lot..." "Not a lot of space in that particular one for dancing." "Yeah, this is a scaled-down version of what we do." "I gather, cos I can see from the picture, you can have much bigger ones." "So, just so I understand the business, because actually when I first saw it," "I thought it was going to be the structure that you were talking about, but, actually, you're an event business?" " Yeah." " Yeah?" " With unique structures." "There's not many people who have these igloos." "We've found three in the UK." "We've turned this into a nationwide business." "We have six different structures." "It's..." "One of our main selling points is the whole package we provide." "It's like a pop-up nightclub for your back garden." "Right." "One-stop shop." " Yeah." " "You pay us that much money."" "How much money is that much money?" "Our average job price is £2,500." " OK." " Our biggest structure is £3,295 package." "In the large one, it holds up to 350 people in the 60 metres." "Oh, my goodness!" "That's good value." "£3,295." "Much lower cost than your average marquee hire-type thing, isn't it?" "Exactly, yeah." "A positive start for the party entrepreneur..." " She likes it." " She loves it." "..as leisure industry supremo Deborah Meaden appears impressed with his competitive price list." "Come on, Debbie!" "Global restaurateur Sarah Willingham has made millions showing people a good time." "Will she be equally impressed by his igloo offering?" "I think one of my most memorable party experiences was actually in an igloo, although I don't remember that much about it in the end." "But, no, I mean, it's a great concept because actually..." "It's got the wow factor." "When people walk in, there are blown away, so it's for people that want to impress their guests." "How do people find you?" "We've got about 20,000 followers on Facebook." "We advertise in various different places." "Google ads, Instagram ads." " We're everywhere." " Like, what have you had to spend to get revenue?" "We spend about 1,500 quid a month on advertising." "If you spend £1,500 in a month..." " Yeah." " ..what will that result in in turnover?" "20-25 grand." "So why don't you spend more money on that?" "I mean, there's your £1 million turnover right there." "The reason we've not invested this in the advertising spend so far is because last year was just me, and I'm not a trained marketer." "It were like we were wasting money." "This year, I've brought the right team in and we've targeted our adverts to different audiences and demographics." "We know what works now." "Danny continues to work the room as he reveals a good return on his social media marketing strategy." "But tech tycoon Peter Jones isn't in a partying mood." "I'm assuming that if I wanted to go and hire an inflatable igloo," "I could do that tomorrow on my own, couldn't I?" "Yeah." "Well, yeah." "So what have you got that is different to the hundreds of event companies out there?" "You've got my knowledge of the events industry." "I've been a consumer, I've been a booker in the venues," "I've been a DJ, I've been a festival organiser." "I've been on every angle of this business." "We've been doing it two years now, and no-one's stepped into the market and succeeded at all." "Yeah, but with respect, Danny, you could argue that you haven't succeeded." " You've made literally £3,000 in the last 12 months." " Yep." "So are you cash positive in the bank?" "At the moment, we've got about 5-10 grand." " Any loans?" " The only debts we have are from my dad, who lent us 25 grand." "And I owe myself eight grand." "So you owe 33,000?" "Right, OK, well, I believe we're on the cusp of a change." "We dropped a 20 grand deal yesterday for a nationwide company to host a festival for 800 of their workforce, so this month, we're looking at 40-50 grand turnover." "But you haven't made any money yet." "You haven't really proved that you... you make money doing this." "The entrepreneur fails to convince Peter Jones that he can make a profit in the pop-up business." "And now, Touker Suleyman wants to take him to task over his cash flow." "You just mentioned that you've got £5,000 in the bank." " Yeah." " But surely, if you're taking lots of reservations in advance, they're giving you money to hold as a deposit?" " Yeah." " How many events have you got lined up for the next 12 months?" "Erm... about 30." "30." "So, really, if it was a £2,000 event..." " Yeah." " ..you should have £30,000 in the bank put to one side, correct?" "Where's the money they've paid you, is where I want to get to." "The marketing, our sales manager's on a sliding percentage scale" " of the deal." " Right." "The cost for us to acquire each sale works out at roughly 50%." "So the guy that's booked Christmas already, you've spent half his money." "Yes." "That's..." "That's the cost of our sales." "Well, you should be..." "No, I'm just concerned that a business that should be cash positive is not." "Yeah." "It's like, if you have one problem, or you have one bill which is out of the ordinary for five, ten grand, you won't have any money to continue." "We..." "We don't get bills of five, ten grand." "I think Touker raised a brilliant point, actually." "Because you..." "You should be finding ways now of utilising that deposit that you get paid upfront to fund this business as you grow it going forward." " Yeah." " And I think you'll have a nice living from it." "Your expertise of knowing what's required I think is really useful." "Yeah." "But as an investor, I think it's quite a small opportunity." " OK." " But as a business, I think you'll do very well on your own." "So I wish you the best of luck, but I'm out." "Thank you." " He's out." " Other event companies..." "We never wanted you anyway, you lanky beanstalk." "Danny, I'm a little concerned that you haven't yet demonstrated that you know how to make money." "In fact, you've probably done the opposite." "You've kind of said, "Look, I can generate revenue," " "but I'm not sure how that drops to the bottom line."" " Yeah." "It's not..." "It's not..." "For me, I don't see it as an investment." " Thank you." " I'm out." " Thank you very much." "Two Dragons down in quick succession as Deborah Meaden joins Peter Jones in declining a deal." "Will Nick Jenkins dig a disco investment?" "These things are really cool and I'm actually genuinely surprised at how cheap they are for such a large venue, cos otherwise compared with a marquee cost, it's really cost-effective." "But they're not yours." "I mean, you don't own them." "They're..." "They're available, they're out there in the market." "And in that sector, and I know a little bit about it, every once in a while, things like the stretch tents come out so a couple of people start doing stretch tents." "The tipis come out and everyone starts doing tipis." "So they tend to go in waves, but then, when they're popular, everybody just buys them." "So there is nothing that you own in this that's particularly special." " I can't invest in it, so I'm out." " Thank you." "Oh, come on, mate." "Another Dragon turned party pooper as the pop-up disco idea failed to win over Nick Jenkins." "Which way will Touker Suleyman go?" " Danny..." " Hi." "..you are the Danny Show." "As far as I'm concerned, I can't see it being the Danny-Touker Show." "You know?" "I think it is a niche business." "I can't really see how much value I can add." "I've had my days in discos, I've had a lot of fun." "And I think I want to leave that to you." " I don't think it's an investment for me." " OK." " And I'm out." "A fourth rejection leaves only Sarah Willingham still in." "Will she offer Danny the capital he's come here to secure?" "I think you've done brilliantly." "I love the fact that you're hiring your family," "I love the fact that you've taken your passion and your hobby" " and you're making a business out of it." " Yep." "I think where you are at the moment, it's a very difficult phase." "It's kind of turning it from a hobby and a concept and you're right at that phase where you are now turning it into a business and then there's another phase afterwards where you can then turn it into an investment opportunity." "And, actually, that comes probably when you're three or four times the size that you are and you've actually got a model that you're properly starting to roll out." "So it's not an investment opportunity for me, but good luck." "But I'm out." "Thank you." "I'd just like to thank you all for your time." " Good luck, Danny." " Good luck." "So, the party's over in the Den at least as the prospect of investing in Danny's Igloo Events company leaves the Dragons cold." "I don't need any motivation to keep going." "I'll always keep going." "It's just what I do." " All right?" " Well done." " You smashed that, though, mate." " Oh, yeah." " You absolutely smashed that." "'I've done every aspect of it.'" "I live and breathe it." "If you can find me another me," "I'll invest in him myself." "Next up tonight are best friends and business partners" "Jane Yates and Katie McDermott." " Love you." " Love you too." "When the lift doors open and we see the Dragons there, the first thing I think will be - walk in a straight line and don't fall over." "Breathe!" " And..." " Don't shout out any of their names." "Like, "Hi, Deborah!" "Oh, my God!"" "Cos that might happen." "Hello, Dragons." "We're Katie and Jane and we're here today to seek investment in our meat-free, fast food company Not Dogs, meaty dogs without the meat." "The meat-free market is valued at £785 million a year and 40% of the UK population are committed meat reducers, vegetarians and vegans, who say that the number one issue with a meat-free diet" " is lack of commercial choice." " Not Dogs is created by us, one vegetarian and one meat reducer, who felt frustrated by the lack of trustworthy meaty meals and satisfying vegetarian food while out and about." "Over the past 18 months, we've transformed Not Dogs into an award-winning brand, travelling up and down the UK to music festivals in our little purple food truck." "We've served up over 10,000 Not Dogs, turning over an average of £2,000 in sales revenue per day." "We have built up a tribe of fans online and we've also been invited to Downing Street, where we were crowned one of the UK's food stars." "We have cultivated an exclusive relationship with the world's most successful meat-free company, Quorn." "The Quorn bratwurst that we use to create our Not Dogs is exclusive to us in the UK." "This year, we will launch the first meat-free fast casual restaurant, enabling the 28 million meat reducers, vegetarians and vegans to get their fast food fix." "Our first restaurant location will be within the iconic Bullring in Birmingham, which welcomes 40 million annual visitors and our new home will have direct footfall of 130,000 people per week." "We're here today to seek investment of £75,000 in return for a 15% share in our proven concept." "We welcome your questions, but first we'd love for you to try your first Not Dog." "A pitch delivered with relish by business partners" "Jane Yates and Katie McDermott." "That's for you." " Oh, wow." " It's a big one." "They want the Dragons to serve up £75,000 in exchange for 15% of their vegetarian fast food business." "Is that really eight inches?" "Promise you." "We've actually measured it." "Might have exaggerated it by a tiny bit." "But will their offering prove a meaty enough investment opportunity?" "First, though, Peter Jones has a bone to pick with the Not Dog duo." "I'm quite offended." "You named Deborah after and call her the Don." " I'm happy." " You do Touker as the ticklish Turkish jokey guy." " Yep." " And then you do, ooh, secret saucy little Sarah." " Yeah." " And that's all lovely." "And the Russian rebel, which is Nick." "Then you call Peter Jones the jerk." " No!" " What's that all about?" "I think you know what that's a nod towards." " No." " Reggae Reggae?" " A business that you might have..." " Jerk sauce?" " ALL:" " Oh!" "Which would be found in the topping." " DEBORAH:" " See?" " You can give puns, but you can't take them." " PETER:" " Oh." "The entrepreneurs successfully placate Jerkin' Jones, but the Dragons never stay tame for long and Nick Jenkins is finding their market research hard to follow." "You said there are 28 million veggies or meat reducers." " Yes." " Would you like to back that up?" "The meat reducing trend, so people that maybe have one day a week, meat-free Mondays, and they don't include meat for that day, or like Katie, reduces it as much as possible a few times a week," "they are rising and that is why the figures are so high." "There is a lot of people that do not trust processed meat and that is our key customer and that's what we class as the meat reducing market." "Focusing in on this market..." " Yeah." " ..how many vegetarians are there as opposed to meat reducers?" "12% of the population." "Are you worried a little bit if you open up an outlet that just does vegetarian food, you're actually excluding..." "..88% of the population?" "We've actually found in our trading experience, so far, that a third of our customers are actually meat eaters and Not Dogs is a place that me and Jane could go and have a quick, fast food fix together." "She doesn't have to worry about anything to do with animal products and I feel that there's absolutely no difference between a meat hot dog and our Not Dog." "Can I say that tastes really good?" " Thank you." " So what's your credentials?" "Because, actually, you know what, what makes any restaurant, any fast food service, any of that work is the people, that's it." "So what are your credentials?" "Well, we first met each other five years ago, both leading PR and social media departments at an advertising agency." "But we always had this idea for vegetarian fast food." "We have spent 18 months in our food truck, just the two of us, all over the country, taking that food truck to every single muddy field there is and worked 18 hours a day, serving up those Not Dogs absolutely relentlessly." "We then saw the opportunity for an actual three-month pop-up in a shop just near the Shard in London." "That three-month experience gave us great understanding of how hard it is to run a restaurant and that's...really, we've done it." "An impressive work ethic and a confident account of their experience so far." "But will it be enough to win over global restaurant guru" "Sarah Willingham?" "I've done lots of festivals, both restaurants and bars." "And it's very, very, very, very different than running a restaurant." "Actually, the reality is, you have got such a... not just a captive audience, you've got a captive audience with a very, very, very limited choice." "Turnover's high." "I imagine profit was low." "Very low." "If at all?" "Every time we made a profit..." " Very good." " ..and where we took the 2,000 consistently every day, we would take 6,000 in total for the weekend" " and 2,000 of that would be profit." " Is that including paying yourselves?" "No." "OK." "So, you know, break even, basically." " Yeah." " So now you move that into the Bullring." " Yeah." " Who are you next to?" "We are literally very close to the food hall." " But you're not in the food hall?" " No." "If you're not near the food, that's actually a problem for your offering." "You need to be surrounded by other food offers." "Not quite the reaction Katie and Jane were hoping for, as Sarah Willingham dishes out a reality check over their plans to expand into shopping centres." "And it's given fashion magnet Touker Suleyman food for thought." " Food is not my forte." " Mm-hm." "I wish you'd come with something that I had a synergy with because I think the pair of you are fantastic." "I don't believe that I can add value to you." " OK." " For that reason, I'm out." "Thank you, Touker." "Praise for the entrepreneurs, but a deal still dismissed." "Can the man who turned Moonpig into a household name see the money-spinning potential in the Not Dog brand?" "Eating this reminds me a little bit of snails." "And I say that because I used to think that I really liked snails and, actually, what I realise is I love garlic butter." "And I was eating that thinking it was really, really tasty and what I really like is cheese sauce and grilled onions." "You're brilliant on the sauces, absolutely fantastic." "And I think..." "I can see why it works at festivals because you've got something for everybody there, you're all mingling in a field and it's all open-air eating, you can get whatever you want." "I just don't see it working as a stand-alone place where you have to walk in through the door and go in and sit down." " I can't invest, I'm out." " Thank you." "I think you're up against a really big challenge by really focusing on this product as opposed to having this within a range." "This is tough if you go one specific product..." "We do have the Boston burger, the Bali breakfast dog, we have a breakfast muffin as well and we've expanded the range to include meat-free chicken nuggets and waffle fries." "So we see these products but coming under the Not Dogs brand because that's the brand that people talk about." "I think because also I'm a meat-eater, it's a hard one to get over the line with me." "I'm not buying your business." " OK." " I'm sorry." "I'm going to say that I'm out." " Understandable." " Thanks, Peter." " Thank you." "A carnivorous Peter Jones lets his taste buds do the talking and also walks away from a deal." "Sarah Willingham has been sceptical of the entrepreneurs' expansion plans." "But has Katie and Jane's dogged determination to succeed won her round?" "I love restaurants that do what they say on the tin." "This is..." "I am an expert in this field." "You come to me because this is what..." "You might be brilliant Indian, you might be brilliant Middle Eastern, so I do like the specificness of it." "But you're too niche." "I think you'll really, really struggle, if I'm being honest." "I really do think it's quite high-risk." "And I can't invest in it." " I'm out." " Thank you." " Thanks, Sarah." "Four Dragons out." "Only Deborah Meaden remains." "Will the Dragon who regularly goes meat-free be the one to see value in the vegetarian fast food concept?" "I like the idea." "I like the people." "Um... ..but I don't like the business." "I've had restaurants, I've had bars, but it's not an area that I'm dying to get back into, so it would have to be a compelling reason." "I wish you all the best of luck, but I'm afraid I won't be investing." "I'm out." " Good luck." " Thank you." " Thank you very much." "So no dosh for Not Dogs, but a new nickname one Dragon will never forget." "Don't cry, don't cry." " I'm not happy." " Look at his face." "She gives me a card and it says The Jerkin' Jones as well." "We noticed straightaway when Peter saw his Jerkin' Jones dog and we're quite surprised, actually, that he didn't realise what we'd done." "Maybe it was a bit too clever, I don't know." "Next." "Hoping to have more success securing Dragon capital were husband and wife duo Anna and Rowan Byrne from London." "Bring the core to the floor!" "Shake it up." "And down." "The hula-hooping hopefuls were offering 15% equity in exchange for an £80,000 investment..." "Bring it down and hula, ladies." "..to help turn their dance class company into a national franchise." "As you can see, HulaFit is a seriously fun and high energy hula-hoop fitness class." "We give an all-body workout using weighted hoops that will not only strengthen and tone your core, but will leave you sweating, smiling and wanting more." "Deborah Meaden was more than happy to give the workout a road test." " Whoa!" " Hey!" "Whoa!" "OK, that's it." "I can't stop." "Oh, there we go." "SHE EXCLAIMS" " Very good, well done." " That was very impressive." "Now you know what I do in my spare time." "Plenty of enthusiasm, but not from Peter Jones." "Excitement over. "Is it a business?" is going through my mind." "Apart from a bit of branding, what are you really doing to create a business that everybody else could do anyway just by buying some hula hoops?" "I think what we're bringing to it is our background, of fitness and Anna's been teaching hula-hooping for about ten years." "I perform with fire, mostly." " Fire?" " Yeah, with fire." "See, it would have been a lot better if you'd done that." "Touker Suleyman struggled to get his head around the "hul" idea." "Is this tried and tested and proven, or is it a little dream in your head?" "We haven't trialled it ourselves." "And was torn over whether the brand was fit for investment." "I'm not 100% sure." "Maybe Deborah... (I'm Sarah.)" "You're Sarah, of course you're Sarah." "But there was no mistaking Peter Jones when it fell to him to put an end to the entrepreneurs' hoop dreams." "You've just taken a flyer and just come in and hula-hooped." " Right." " And you're going to end up hula-hooping your way out." " Good luck, but I'm out." " I won't be investing." " I'm out." " I'm out." " Thank you." " Cheers." " Bye-bye." "Not that it stopped Deborah Meaden throwing down the gauntlet to the men in the Den." "Chickens." "I can't believe you guys didn't stand up." " Come on, boys." " Go on, guys." " PETER:" " How the hell are you supposed to do that?" "Would you like me to show you, Mr Jones?" "Which part of your thing do you shake?" "My booty." "Oh, gone and put my back out now!" " TOUKER:" " Oh!" "Oh, yes." "Oh, yes." "Now we're talking." "Coffee?" "Anyone got coffee?" " PETER:" " Is it speed?" " Oh, oh, oh." " I'm exhausted now." "Still to come on tonight's show..." "It's a black hole eating money." "This is quite an important number, isn't it?" "So can you just try and recall it?" "It is a big boy's game." "Only a few companies can win." "I want a large piece of the pie." "To be a successful entrepreneur, it is useful to have supreme confidence in your product, which is exactly what our next entrepreneur," "John Nicholls from Ledbury in Herefordshire, has." "HE CALLS AND WHISTLES TO DOG" "I know the product inside out, so they're not going to fluster me, and I know my figures, hopefully rehearsed my figures pretty well." "For a seemingly well prepared John, the fire of the Dragons holds no fear." "I love people that give me a lot of stick because I'm just getting another problem solved." "Give me half a day and I've thought of the answer." "But will he have all the answers when it comes to the Dragons' questions?" "I'm John Nicholls and I'm looking today for an investment of 45,000 for 15% of my HandiScoop company." "So I've got two products." "One is this size, which we call the easy walking HandiScoop and the long one is the easy reach HandiScoop." "They're both, basically, the best poop scoops in the world." "For the people that have bought the product, they would never go back to a traditional method of what they're using to pick up poop." "The reason the scoop is so unique, it has a bagging system." "It just goes over the top and it's actually sealing the smell and I'm picking up and it's actually put now the three carrots all in the same bag." "So not only is it much more easy to use, much quicker, than a conventional method, it actually is saving lots of bags." "It works on good poop and bad poop days." "So anything sloppy, I'll challenge anyone in the world to pick up with their hands better than I can pick up with my HandiScoop." "For young children, it's actually ideal." "Any young child from five, you wouldn't ask a child, particularly, to get a bag out and pick it up, but this is very hygienic." "He can do it and really enjoy helping look after the pet." "And right through to someone of quite old age." "Here we've got a bracket that we've developed, so it fits on walking sticks, on buggy pushchairs, push bikes, anything." "We've achieved just under 35,000 pieces of sales in the last five years." "We've worked very hard now on the packaging and since the packaging has been improved," "I feel that we'll get fantastic retail sales." "That's HandiScoop." "Thank you very much for listening." "We've got a product for you to have a look at." " Thank you." " Innovative poop scoops are the offering from Herefordshire-based John Nicholls." "Obviously, you're very, very welcome to come and try one of our props." "The entrepreneur is hoping to pick up a £45,000 investment in exchange for a 15% stake in his pet accessory business." "It works." "Touker Suleyman appears satisfied." "But dog-owner Nick Jenkins knows more than most about the problem in hand." "Oh, that is such a boy thing to do." " SHE RETCHES" " You're so revolting!" "Is he about to praise the product or "poo-poo" it?" " Thank you very much indeed." " Thank you." "Thank you." "I could totally accept that not a lot of people appreciate the warm and squidgy feeling that one gets picking up dog poop, but at the same time, you sort of get over it fairly quickly." "And the big advantage is you don't have to walk around with a big thing that says - "I'm carrying poop!"" "Now, there is an advantage to this product that you haven't emphasised, which is security." " Yep." " Because if you're walking through the park and you're quite visibly holding something that is quite obviously full of poop, nobody's going to mug you." "Particularly if your dog has diarrhoea." "When I scooped up those baked beans and showed them to Sarah..." "Yes, I've got poo everywhere here, look." "I don't think you quite did it properly, but I'd love to challenge you." " Look." " Ooh!" "OK, so you're down on your hands and knees, so now with..." "That's..." "How much have you picked up?" "So you're going to leave the rest?" "No, I could pick that all up, but that's the point I'm demonstrating here." "I don't think you demonstrated anything to me." "You've left all those beans in the tray." "I could completely clear the tray of every last bean." "I..." "I don't know." "The main thing for me is that I wouldn't want to walk through the street..." "It's a big bulky thing to walk through the streets with." "A small packet of bags just go in my pocket." "You put bags of poop in your pocket, yeah?" "No, no, what I do is I drop it in the nearest bin" " when I'm walking past." " When the bin is full, what do you do then?" " Well, I go to the next bin." " So you're walking along and you think that's much better than carrying a hygienic handle, that you know you haven't got any mess on you." " Is that great?" " I don't have an issue with that." "OK, fine." "Now, the other problem you've got is when you're handling that, that actually dangles down." "Councils now are starting to get rid of bins cos they can't afford to maintain them and another thing is..." "John, John, John..." "Can I just interrupt you?" "Just take a deep breath because you've now moved into argument mode." "It's like you're having some kind of argument in the Den." " Sorry." " What you actually want to do is pitch for an investment." " OK." " So can we just take a deep breath and focus on the business?" "Sure." "It's a messy start for John as he fails to convince Nick Jenkins of his product's superior scooping ability." "Now the multi-millionaires want to work out if the design of the HandiScoop holds any value." " Is it patented?" " Yes." "So I'm assuming that what's patented is the front end, not the back end," " and looks like a gun." " Yeah." "I've made it in conjunction with a company called The Helping Hand company." "He makes all the disabled grabbing things and litter pickers." "Together, we've developed the product and he actually owns the patents and everything, but I've got full selling rights on all of the product." " Ah, so you haven't got the patents?" " I don't own the patents, no." "Right, OK." "So, basically, you have a licence?" "Yeah." "How many have you got to sell a year to keep hold of that licence?" "Erm..." "HE STUTTERS" "I'm not..." "I'm selling more..." "I haven't got the figures right in front of my head at the moment, but I'm selling more than my agreement was than I had to sell." "OK." "And it'll roll on from there." "Does that increase every year, your minimum?" "Yes." "Well, no..." "It just got to a certain level and then he was happy with the level" " that I'm selling." " I mean, this is quite an important number, isn't it?" " Yes, OK." " So can you just try and recall it?" "Yeah." "I would think I've got to sell... ..up to, um... at least 6,000 pieces a year." "You don't know that, do you?" "You've just guessed that." "I'm not asking you a difficult question." " No." " I just want to understand how likely you are to be able to continue selling this product if it is a big success." "Or if it isn't a success, or if it's a bit of a success." " OK." " What the risk is." "I don't think there is a risk." "Yeah, but you can't tell me that." "You need to say to me " ""I've got to sell 10,000 a year to hold on to my licence."" "Or 15,000 a year, or 20,000 a year." "Can you say that?" "How many products do you have to buy off him to make sure the licence continues?" "I would think something like 5,000 pieces a year." "You would think!" "Well, I can get it agreed..." "It's not a problem to get it agreed." "At the moment, I don't think I've got a figure." "You are a licensed product." "Right." "All you're offering an investor is the ability to join with you in selling this licensed product." " Right." " So this agreement.." " Yes." " ..is something that should be in your head, absolutely," ""I've got to do this, I've got to do that, that way we're safe."" "OK, yep." "Do you have the agreement with you?" "Does it actually matter?" "Will it make a difference if he had the agreement with him?" "You've really just come in and tried to wing an investment on the back of the fact that you've had a product, you've sold a few, somebody else owns the rights, and you want me to invest." "I don't need you." "I may as well go and do a deal with the actual owner who has the ownership of the IP." " I invented it." " Well, you've given the rights away." "You've invented something and given the rights to somebody else." "I don't..." "I question why you would do that." "So, really, as an investment, you've got nothing to offer." "I'm out." "Peter Jones makes no bones about his disillusionment with John's licensing agreement." "Is a previously sceptical Nick Jenkins also about to walk away from a deal?" "Look, I'm sure there are some people with limited mobility" " for whom this would be useful." " Sure." "I don't think it solves any of the problems of being a relatively squeamish, fairly revolting experience, picking up dog poo." "It doesn't offer a good enough solution for this to be interesting, so for that reason, there's so many reasons to be out..." "..but I'm out." "OK." "Thank you." "John, I'm not a dog owner, but as a product, I just don't see it." "If I had a dog, I'd take the dog out with my kids." "I wouldn't even be able to hold their hand because I'd have to carry this enormous contraption with me everywhere that I went." "Honestly, I can't see me ever using it." "So, I'm afraid, it's not a business for me to invest in, so I'm out." "A pet-free Sarah Willingham declines the investment opportunity." "Which way will dog-loving Deborah Meaden go?" "I do think you'll sell some and I hope that you can make a business out of it." "But of course you've got this really confusing relationship that I don't think is properly tied down with the patent holder and it just takes away the ability to invest." "Even if I thought it was a fantastic product, there would be lots of barriers." "It's not going to happen, so I'm out." "With Deborah Meaden out, just Touker Suleyman remains." "Could the retail tycoon be the Dragon to offer the HandiScoop hopeful a financial helping hand?" "I think it's a good product." "It's practical..." " Yes." " ..as a piece of kit." "What have you sold in the last 12 months?" "I'm selling about 600 pieces a month at the moment." "About 7,200." "You've got online." "How many of those are you selling a month?" "Probably about 150, somewhere around there." " A month?" " Yeah." "Obviously I supply people like Amazon, Pets At Home, other people as well." "So I'm supplying wholesale as well, to some garden centres, to some pet shops." "It looks like you're supplying a lot of people, but you're not selling much." "The reason is, like I explained, because of the packaging, didn't relate." "The product bare is very hard to understand." "With the packaging..." "The packaging is absolutely brand-new." "John, if it's the right product, they find you." " Right." " But I would have thought by now, been going five years, you would have sold a lot more." "All I can tell you is that when it does sell, the people would never go back to what they currently do and if every household in England had one..." "You're dreaming there, aren't you?" "I don't exactly think so because I know..." "Is that your prediction?" " That every household in the country will own one of those?" " No, I don't." "My figures that I have prepared are based on 1% of the market." "Right." "So what are your figures?" "So 12 months from now, where will you be?" "I reckon I'll be turning over 900,000." "And at the moment, how much is it going to be this year?" " About 60,000." " So you're going to go from 60 to 900,000?" "Yes." "Big numbers." " You're digging your grave bigger and bigger, I'm afraid, John." " No, no, no, no." "There's a lot of barriers that you've put up today." "The product's right but you're uninvestable." " I'm out." " OK, thank you very much indeed." "Thank you." "And good luck." "I hope it works out." "Thank you." "Good." "So a fifth and final rejection for John, who has failed to scoop an investment in his doggy device." "He walks away empty-handed." "OK, I've lost out and they've lost out." "That's what I look at." "I didn't do a good pitch early on and it's quite hard on you." "You know, you can't remember all the figures in your head." "So far, our multi-millionaire Dragons haven't been tempted to commit any of their cash, failing to see enough value in the array of businesses they've been pitched." "But will our final entrepreneurs into the Den fare any better?" "They are Glasgow-based Vincenz Klemt and Raj Sark, business partners who believe there is profit in loss." "Almost 1.5 billion worth of gadgets are lost in the UK, so we said, "There is a problem " ""can there be a solution?"" "And I think it's the right timing for us to go into the Den and give it our best shot." "But will the Dragons find value in their investment opportunity?" " Hi, Dragons." " Hello, Dragons." "Are we ready?" " Yes." "Oh, wait, where are my keys?" " Where's my phone?" " Where are my keys?" " My phone?" " Did you know the average person spends ten minutes per day doing just that." "Lupo is the solution." "With Lupo, you can find your keys from your phone, you can ring your phone from your keys." "Keys, wallet or travel bag - keep track of them all through one single app." "Lupo is primarily aimed at the busy young professional, the smartphone user, the frequent traveller and everybody who sometimes can't find the things they know are here somewhere." "And that can happen to anybody." "So what do we do when we can't find the car keys, 8am in the morning," " in a rush?" " It's very simple." "We take out the Lupo app and use the Call Me feature." " BEEPING" " Oh, hang on." "Oh." "Oh, it's down there." "Is that me?" "Am I beeping?" "Just under you!" " Oh, thank you." " Thanks, Deborah, you're a champ." "You can find your keys from your phone." "You can also actually find your phone from your keys." "You press the button here and you wait." "One, two..." " PHONE PLAYS JINGLE" " There we go." "It's a two-way finder and if something goes lost, stolen or missing, you can view its last known location on a map." "Today, we are here to seek an investment of £100,000 in return for an 8% equity stake in our company." "Lupo is one of the UK's favourite tracking gadgets and has been one of the best sellers on Amazon UK." "The product sells at £20 per unit and the cost to produce each of them is £3.50, giving us a gross margin of just about 75%." "We are looking to bring Lupo to a retail store near you and with this investment, it will help us do just that." "Thank you." "And now we would like to answer any of your questions." "Hoping to home in on an investment are Vincenz Klemt and Raj Sark with their tracking device and phone app, which helps locate lost valuables." " One for you, Peter." " Thank you very much." "The entrepreneurs are looking for £100,000 for just 8% of their business." "Even the most diligent of Dragons misplaces their phone from time to time." "But it appears Sarah Willingham needs convincing" " that this is the solution to finding it." " Am I missing something?" "I just don't get it, because it says very clearly in your instructions that if you want to find your mobile phone, make sure it's not on mute, and make sure it's switched on to find it." "I would just use somebody else's mobile phone or something and I would just phone it." "It's a very age-old problem, really." "You ask your friend, you ask someone else." " "Can you ring my phone?" - "Can you ring my phone?"" "But what if your friend or partner is not there at the moment?" "You spend ten minutes searching for it and that already is a bad start to the day." "It's not a particularly great start to the day for Raj and Vincenz either." "And now tech tycoon Peter Jones has a bee in his bonnet about just how innovative their innovation is." "Tech tracking is so old." "I sell... at least five or six different types of tracking tag devices." "It's not new." "Bluetooth Smart, actually, is a very new technology." "That's Bluetooth 4.0 - combining that with our software, that part of the technology is very new." "My sister bought my husband for Christmas something that does exactly what this does." "So what is that?" "There are a few similar trackers out there in the market." "It's a very fast evolving and growing market, as we see it." "So you're not claiming this is unique?" "So what's your...?" "And this is important." "So why you?" "It's the software." "Anybody can take all these components off the shelf in China, yeah." "They're very cheap." "But it's all about the firmware on the device." "It's about the app." "We can also write new applications for that button." "OK, see, that's really important to understand because the thing that you're selling us doesn't sound at all unique to me." "But, actually, it's the other stuff that's making it unique." "And the question, therefore, is how important is the other stuff that you can do?" "So we have one large competitor in the US." "They raised about 16 million funding." "By January, they have sold about four million units." "But their battery is locked in." "So after about six months, the product will die." "Ours lasts the longest in terms of the battery life." "That's unique to Lupo." "Also, the upgradeability, which is unique to our product." "The entrepreneurs are certainly not lost for words as they deftly handle yet more scepticism about their phone-finding device." "But it's the disclosure of a major competitor Stateside that's preoccupying both Nick Jenkins and Touker Suleyman." "Technology moves very fast." " Yes." " Now, you mentioned about a competitor in the US." " Yes." " You honestly believe that they're going to sit there and do nothing to improve their product, that they're going to just let the business be taken away from them?" "I don't think so." "This is..." "It is a big boy's game and there will be lots of big companies coming in and throwing a lot of money at researchers." "Only a few companies can win, so it's too much of a gamble." "I just can't take myself over the edge, so for that reason I'm afraid I'm out." "E-commerce risk taker Nick Jenkins decides not to take a chance on the techie twosome." "And it seems Sarah Willingham has come to an early decision." "I keep coming back to the fundamental need for it." "I really don't like the fact that my mobile phone has to be turned on, cos that, to me, is the real problem, cos I'll always be able to find my phone if it's turned on" "and it's not on mute, cos I can just call it from somebody else's phone." "So it's not an investment for me because it's not something that I get excited about." "I'm out." "You're going to need a lot of money to keep up." "Right?" "Before you know it, it's a black hole just eating money." "I can't see myself on that journey with you." "For that reason, I'm out." "Two more Dragons down." "Vincenz and Raj have had their work cut out persuading the multi-millionaires that their product is unique enough to rise above the competition." "Will Deborah Meaden and Peter Jones each take a punt or throw in the towel?" "I like what you've done." "I think that you've got what it takes and I think you understand the market really, really well." "The window of opportunity is now and, on the basis of that... ..I'm going to make you an offer." "So I'm going to offer you all of the money, 100,000... ..but I want a large piece of the pie." "And the reason is because I believe that you can go two routes." "You can get an investor that's going to give you what you need, capital to grow, or you're going to get an investor that will give you the capital to grow and the routes to market to sell." "And I have the routes to market to sell." "So I'm going to offer you £100,000, but I want 30% of the business." "He previously appeared lukewarm, but a wily Peter Jones reveals his hand, signalling a turnaround for the entrepreneurs." "But the Dragon's substantial equity demand is almost four times the amount the business partners wanted to give away." "Will Deborah Meaden be willing to offer a better deal?" "Honestly... ..Peter's your man." "You know, Peter's your man." "He's..." "I couldn't offer you, honestly, the route to market as quickly as Peter." "This is what Peter does." "You've got a good offer from the right Dragon, so I won't be making an offer." "I won't be investing." "I'm out." "Is it OK if we take a bit of time off to have a talk?" "Because we're interested in your offer." "We are just trying to see how we can also make it work." "OK." "Yeah." "It's a tough decision for the business partners." "Will they risk negotiating with the Dragon who is notoriously prickly about a business's price tag?" "(They'd be mad not to take that offer.)" "Peter obviously understands the market, which I'm..." "And he thinks we have got insight into the market." "He's definitely got the connections there." "But if we are raising anywhere above the 20% mark, we are actually almost going down on the valuation." "Would you be willing to drop the equity stake to somewhere around 15%?" "No." "And the reason for that is that I think that there's some investments you get opportunities with that the value of which you bring is greater than the parts, and I think this is one." "I think the value that I bring to the party, to this, and particularly this product," "I think I'll be creating the value for you." "We do really appreciate the network you are going to bring in, for which actually we would be willing to take the investment, if we could have an offer at 20%." "You know, I've already got a business that sells products like this into 150 countries around the world." "It's what I do." "So, no, I'm going to stick fast on 30%." "The issue is just the valuation, because we are almost..." "We want to increase the value of the company." "I think you've got an opportunity now to increase the value of your company by accepting my offer." "Would that be your final position?" "Is there any other valuation you can offer us?" "No, I've got to stay true because some investments, I can offer, say, 30% and say, "Look, if I get my money back," ""I'll drop down to 15 or 20%."" " Yeah." " But I don't believe that that's right in this case, because I think to sell this product you need me." " OK." " Can we take another time out?" " OK." " Thank you." "(If his business can be a success, Peter will make it happen," "(end of story.)" "Yeah, I think we are going to stick with our investment strategy." "OK." "Peter, we would love to accept your offer." " Yay!" " Great." "Brilliant." " Good decision." " Thanks very much." " Well done." " Really good decision." "A great example of negotiation as well." " Well done." " Well done." " Thank you." " Thank you, all." "Finally, the tracking gadget entrepreneurs do close a deal, getting the Dragon with global tech expertise onboard." " That's all right." " Yeah." "30%." "OK." "The negotiation with Peter was tough, but I think we are happy that we still got the offer" " and managed to close it." " That was a game changer for them." "I mean, every business does it, it gets a moment where it's absolute, this is a game changer." " Yeah." " And they've just had their moment." "So a nail-biting end to events in the Den." "Raj and Vincenz face a difficult dilemma and it was one of those days where the all-important back wall of the Den played a key role in helping them come to their final decision and eventually accepting Peter Jones's offer." " Oh!" " Coming up next time..." "LAUGHTER" "I'm going to be really brutal here." "I don't think you've got a business." "I'm not being funny, but I didn't wake up this morning thinking, "I want to invest in intimate waxing."" "Have you given me a trick one?" "No." "You can't even move that." "You have come up with a very, very spicy valuation." "I tell you what, I'm going to break cover and if this means that I'm on my own, then I'm on my own." "You're sleeping on your office floor to make this business work." "I don't need to know any more." "That's done it."