"Court rise!" "The seventh hearing of the trial is now open." "The Attorney General will continue with his opening speech." "Your Honour, here stands before you the destroyer of a people, an enemy of mankind." "He was born human but he lived like a beast in the jungle." "He committed atrocities so unspeakable that he who is guilty of such crimes no longer deserves being called human." "His crimes go beyond what we consider human, they go beyond what separates man from beast." "I ask the Court to consider... that he acted with enthusiasm... out of his own free will... and with passion." "Right to the end!" "I therefore ask you to sentence this man to death." " Remove that man..." " Butcher!" "Butcher!" "Order..." "Remain seated!" "If you want to stay, sit down otherwise this hearing cannot continue." "If not, it will be adjourned!" "Anyone who is unable to endure this should leave." "Mr. Bar Or, please continue." " Did you meet Eichmann?" " Yes." "More than once?" "Yes, yes." "What did you talk about when you met Eichmann?" "What were the topics?" "What did he want to know?" "All sorts of things." "I was part of a delegation to the Reich." "My task was to organise the Pioneers." "I happened to be in charge of the Fund for Israel's Development." "What happened?" "I was told that he'd be there, and since I thought that he was someone capable of listening to our grievances... well, that it seemed as if he would understand our situation," "in these meetings" "I informed him of our demands and grievances." "And from time to time he..." " He did something..." " He did..." "But... to be more precise he almost always said:" ""I must ask my superiors. "" "But in general, it was possible to reach an understanding." "It seemed to me as if he wanted to understand everything in detail." "And... obviously... we all know that the issues concerning the Jews are not that simple." "A lot of things were difficult to explain, even amongst ourselves..." "I don't want to say... any more about it." "And he asked me to explain things to him." "And what was his behaviour like?" "At the time I thought he seemed composed, that he behaved normally." "Of course, there was nothing personal in our relations." "They were cold and factual, but properly conducted." "The meetings were properly conducted?" " Entirely so!" " Yes, yes, yes..." "He addressed me as "Herr", he asked me to sit down..." "You see?" "What did you think of his interest?" "What I think of any official when he says:" ""Explain this to me so that I can understand. "" " Thank you." " Dr Servatius?" "No questions to the witness." "You have concludeed your testimony." "Now, with the permission of the Court I will submit document 1137." "Under point 5:" "Lieutenant-colonel Eichmann declares that he was put in charge of the Central Office for Jewish Emigration and that he definetely decided to let the offices in Berlin, Vienna and Prague function..." "Mr. Bar Or, please refrain from quoting too much." "Very well, your Honour to let them function separately." "He announced that he would divide his time as follows:" "Two weeks per month in Berlin and two weeks per month divided between" "Vienna," "Prague and the General Government in Poland." " Where does it say this?" " Under 13." " Yes, your Honour, under 13." " Thank you." " This is reference T/798." " Thank you, your Honour." "Yes, Mr. Hausner." "You stated that your work in Austria... was the one which gave you most satisfaction and allowed you to savour the joys of creativity." "Is this correct?" "Yes, it is correct." "Would you confirm that in practice your task in Austria was to expel the Jews?" "It was... a regulated, planned emigration." "And I regret that this principle was not maintained throughout the war until it was over." "Is it correct that you stated on page 736 that it was a forced emigration?" "Forced emigration meant accelerated emigration, yes." "In which the Jews were forced to leave everything they owned behind?" "Correct?" "That is correct, but it isn't my fault." "Is it true to say that not a penny was ever returned to the Jews?" "Correct?" "That is unfortunate, but it's not my fault." "For all that concerned... the organisation of this forced emigration in the eyes of your superiors you were considered a qualified specialist?" "Yes." "Emigration is a very complicated affair, one must have a good grasp of it if results are to be achieved." "And the Jews too..." "It's all right, I understood the answer." "Is this how you came to be called" ""the specialist"?" "Yes, I acquired a certain expertise." "Dr Servatius, please proceed." "The following document is T/37." "296, document 1167." "Another personal report undated." "It acknowledges your abilities as an independent administrator and defines you as a qualified specialist." "What exactly are the abilities referred to here?" "Yes, they are the abilities" "I acquired in the field of emigration through experience." "A very complicated field." "I eventually knew all the regulations of the countries of immigration all the sums of money to be declared all the technical details relating to passports etc by heart." "And... yes, I could pass as specialist in this field." "But in my opinion... it was a... quality beneficial to both parties." " Good." " I listened to... the complaints and the unrelenting demands for help and assistance made by the Jewish officials who had been excluded by law from the normal spheres of life and who found themselves in a very difficult position." "I tried to help these Jewish officials and together we considered solutions." "And it was naturally, with the sole aim of helping them, that you acted?" "No, as I said, it was beneficial to both parties." "And I always took account of the desire expressed by the Jews themselves for land of their own, for their own country." "I totally supported this idea, and it formed the basis of my cooperation, my delighted cooperation, with the aim of finding a solution to this problem." "That was my wish and that was my idea, to help create a space where the Jews could live." "All right." "I emphasise that I was bitterly disappointed that this project also failed." "So I said to myself:" ""What's the point in working out my own projects?" ""I'm too weak and powerless." "From now on - it was wartime - I'll simply obey orders. "" "I was a soldier I couldn't get away." "I tried to get away from it as has been established." "I had to obey." "I recognised my powerlessness with regard to my own proposals or ideas" "because they were crushed by superior forces." "You poor man!" "Nothing went as you wanted it to!" " Can we stop here, Mr. Hausner?" " Yes, your Honour." "That's all for today." "The next hearing will be on Monday at 8:30 am." "Court rise!" "Quiet!" "I will ask the question in English." ""Who will pay for all this?"" "I had nothing to do with the Commandos in Poland." "I didn't carry out such things because" "I was not authorised or ordered to do so." "In accordance with the new orders issued by the Reich's Commissioner for the Fortification of German National and Cutural Identity," "I had to draw up transport plans in Berlin in cooperation with the Ministry of Transport." "This is what my work entailed." "The policy at that time was very different from that at the beginning of the war but I wasn't aware of this until much later." "I had orders." "Whether people were killed or not orders had to be executed in accordance with the administrative procedure." "I was only responsible for a small part in these operations." "Other parts necessary for the departure of a transport were the responsibility of various other departments." "This task of yours, was it accomplished in the end?" "You say that it wasn't accomplished by you?" "A deportation consists of several stages." "It wasn't an isolated operation." "Several departments took part in it." "As far as I was responsible" "I was naturally obliged to carry out these tasks." "There we have it!" " But I..." " Please, Mr. Hausner..." "I know, your Honour, but we get to the heart of the matter and I'm not going to let go now." "But I understand it's time for a break." "Yes, it's time." "But if it is very important..." "It is important but I will come back to it this afternoon." "We'll interrupt the hearing now." "The hearing will continue at 15:30." "Court rise!" "Court rise!" " Yes?" " With the Court's permission we will now show the films we saw yesterday." "Before each sequence" "I'll explain what it is about." "Dr Servatius, do you have any comments?" "Your Honour," "I was informed, I have no objections." "Very well, let us start." "Lights off, please..." "The first images show the Special Units executing women and men." "These images are similar to the ones shown at Nuremberg." "SS Soldiers, female SS members..." "Here the contents of the stores at Auschwitz:" "Dentures, spectacles, personal belongings..." "Spectacles..." "Piles of corpses awaiting destruction..." "The Court will see barbed wire, watchtowers and the electrified fences." "A dead man on the electrified fence." "A suicide." "Mauthausen, naked people." "I'm sorry that it was necessary to subject the Court to such distressing experience." "The showing is finished." "...the train arrived here." " Mr. Shlomo..." " Yes?" "Would you step aside a little?" "They opened the wagons and shouted at us to get out with all our things." "A lot of people were killed on the platform and inside the wagons because they didn't get out fast enough." "We were all herded together here." "They made us run to here at full speed." "And it was here that the selection started." "There, on the right..." "Yes." "I didn't want to be separated from my mother, but just by the door I was hit on the head with a truncheon." "I fell but I got up again immediately" "so I wouldn't be hit again but my mother wasn't there anymore." "Did you see your mother again?" " No, never." " Never." "Dr Servatius, any questions?" "No, no questions." "You concluded your testimony." "We continue with the cross-examination of the accused." "I remind the accused that he is still under oath." "Yes, I'm aware of that." "Yes, Mr. Hausner." "I would like to know if the coordination depended on a central office and which one?" "Once Himmler ordered the evacuation, all the authorities acted on their own initiative and started deportations to the territories of the General Government." "Obviously, this led to very unpleasant inconveniences." "In order to put a stop to these," "Security Police chief, Heydrich, intervened." "He created the section" "IV/R, later known as IV/D4 of the government office lll/3ES." "The task within this bureau was to restore order." "My task was to manage the technical transport problems, to make sure that timetables were adhered to and the number of deportees respected." "As far as evacuation was concerned, it was the local authorities who had to provide the trains and wagons which resulted in tremendous" "confusion." "This is why" "I was ordered to go to Berlin so that this newly set up section should centralise the management of the transports centrally from Berlin." "What qualifications did you have for moving from emigration to evacuation?" "The problems involved are quite different from the ones you had to solve in Vienna or Prague." "Yes, that's correct." "I had to familiarise myself with the subject." "I suppose the reason for my assignment to Berlin was that Heydrich and Muller knew I had years of experience in the field of transport." "And since the evacuation of the Eastern Provinces was basically... a technical question of transport," "I was ordered to Berlin." "This is the only explanation I have." "These transports from the East were destined for extermination, weren't they?" "No, that is incorrect!" " It is incorrect?" " That's incorrect." "Whether they were for extermination or not, I can't judge because nobody knew whether the transports were destined for extermination or not." "The bureau in charge of the timetabling knew nothing about this." "No, I repeat, no!" "I will not allow this and I don't want to repeat it." "If necessary I will have the public removed." "Please continue." "Since there is no objection to the submission of Mr. Rajewski's evidence," "I will now read it out to the Court." "Just a moment..." "Would you please proceed..." "It's document T/1356." "That's 1356." " It was presented this morning." " This morning, that's it, thank you." "1356." "Let us call it T/1356a." "Rajewski testifies that he was sent to Auschwitz where he worked at the registration of prisoners, i.e. political department." "On page 174, he states:" ""An order was given" ""to use rubber stamps" ""to stamp the filing-cards with numerical codes. "" "I will present the Court with the numbering system adopted." "The cards were marked as follows:" ""RSH'A, IV/B4a", followed by the words:" ""Jews from France, Belgium and Holland." ""IV/B4a," ""2093/42G..." "".../3913.;" ""Jews from Germany." ""IV/B4a, 2927/42G..." "".../1148.;" ""Jews from Greece." ""IV/B4a," ""3013/42G/1310.;" ""Jews from Croatia," ""from the Protectorate and Theresienstadt," ""Jews from Romania, from Hungary and Italy." ""IV/B4a, 2093/42G/39.;" ""Jews from the G. G.", i.e. General Government" ""and from Bialystok..." ""IV/B4a," ""3666/42G/1505.;" ""Polish 'Aryans."" "I address the accused." "I thought that IV/B4 only dealt with Jews." "Did IV/B4 also deal with Poles, on the basis of the organisational chart?" "That is correct, whenever technical questions of transport such as timetables were concerned." "This, however, concerned only limited groups of people:" "Gypsies..." "Poles..." " Slovenes." " Slovenes, yes." "And Jews." "I think that's all." "Are you aware that these deportees suffered unspeakable miseries?" "I know that, until I took over the running of the section, by the way I've said this and the reports say the same, there... there was confusion and... and extreme disorder." "According to the report, people were often locked up in the wagons for eight days." "And... this is the reason why this section was created in Berlin." "As far as I know, these things didn't happen again." "It may be that, due to inadequacies on the local level, the occasional unpleasantness still happened." "But we did our best to avoid these things." "Once arrangements had been made for deportations and once the destination had been established, a telex had to be sent to determine the transport capacity." "Then the number of deportees was determined." "Following this, the time was set and then IV/B4 worked out the timetables." "This can be seen from the documents." "Could we for once speak without the documents and appeal to your memory?" "Is this impossible?" "But I would like to explain..." "No, you haven't understood the reason for this interrogation." "You must answer the questions without arguing, unless it is indispensable for understanding the answer." "I wanted to avoid any misunderstandings, that's why I wanted to give an explanation." "If it's not allowed, so be it." "I don't believe that any of this could possibly be misunderstood, but please continue." "...it was chaos, chaos in the timetabling from a technical point of view." "Negotiations with the Railway Authorities and the Ministry of Tranport were unsuccessful." "Coordination between the various departments did not work." "The individual Heads of district gave their own orders, the heads of the SS and the police acted according to orders they received from their superior, Himmler." "In short, everyone acted on their own accord and those who suffered were the evacuees, whether Polish or Jewish." "The instructions concerning the transport contingents stipulated that the transports were made by train, and although a train only had a capacity for 700 people, it was necessary to accomodate 1000 Jews." "Was this not an unnecessary complication for which you are responsible?" "No." "It is a matter which the Central Security Office, or more precisely IV/B4, was unable to decide in any case." "But the number 700, as far as I remember, was then a normal number relative to the number of wagons which is not mentioned here, otherwise it would be easy to calculate." "It was the usual number for transports of military personnel." "In a military transport, each soldier had his baggage with him." "But in this particular case, the luggage was locked in special goods wagons that were made available and attached to the train." "Silence!" "You may think what you like but keep it to yourselves." " So that..." " Yes." "So that the people who were being transported didn't have their luggage with them," "because it was in the additional goods wagons." "In accordance with a calculation from the Ministry of Transport, the capacity of the wagons was raised from 700 to 1000 passengers." "Silence!" "I forbid you to demonstrate... your feelings." "The number of deportees was shown on a graph on the wall in your office." "Yes, that's correct." "Your section knew exactly" "how many people were deported and where they were deported to." "Yes, they knew." "I had to make monthly reports on the subject." "Now, the Court asks you to show the territories annexed to the Reich... as they were invaded." "Are you ready to do this?" "I don't recall the details any more." "I only know that I have..." "I can't see the map from here." "May I get a bit closer?" "Yes." "From what I can see on the map, the following Eastern territories were newly incorporated." "Here we have the border of the old Reich." "This part was incorporated and then this one." "To my knowledge all those territories were incorporated and nationalisation was imposed by law." "Were there many suicides at the Drancy camp?" "There were times when there were a lot of suicides, among others in summer 1942." "I believe that over a period of two months or ten weeks," "there were about a hundred suicides." "Suicide was disapproved of at the camp." "Those who tried and failed to kill themselves were heavily criticised for this afterwards by their friends." "They thought that anybody who wanted to kill themselves should wait until after they had left the camp, because anyone who killed themselves was automatically replaced by another to make up numbers for the transport." "Now I would like to draw your attention to the following document, No. 976" "which concerns the deportation of Jews to Auschwitz, in particular that of Jewish children." ""I request urgent information" ""as to wether the children should be deported and how. "" "Here is a hand-written annotation..." "It says "RF"..." "Is that "Republique francaise"?" " Reichsfuhrer." " Where?" " Reichsfuhrer?" " SS." "Reichsfuhrer..." " At the top of the page." " "RF" means Reichsfuhrer," "Reichsfuhrer SS." "Reichsfuhrer SS, yes." "It's document T/405." ""The question of the children's transports was discussed" ""with Lieutenant-colonel S.S. Eichmann." ""He decided that, with renewed transports to the General Government..."" " the General gouvernement " ""the children's transports" ""can roll." "The children's transports will start rolling. "" "Monsieur Wellers, can you describe to the court how the children seemed at their arrival at the camp?" "They arrived at the camp in buses," "as was usual at this camp." "The buses were guarded by Vichy regime gendarmes, together with Vichy inspectors of police." "The buses drove right into the camp." "In the middle of the yard, there was a section... divided off by barbed wire." "The buses drove into this enclosure." "Then the children were ordered out of the buses very rapidly... because many other buses were following close behind and they had to make way for the next one." "So these poor children... were completely upset and disorientated." "They got out... of the buses... in silence." "They took them in groups... corresponding approximately to each bus." "Sometimes there were 50, 60 or 80 children." "The oldest... holding hands with the smallest children." "Nobody was allowed to go near the children except for those of us with special authorisation, like myself." "Then they were led to their quarters." "There was no furniture, just straw mattresses on the floor, which were filthy," "disgusting, full of bedbugs." "Did the children leave the camp easily, without..." "No." "Mostly this was... a horrendous operation." "They were woken at 5 am." "It was impossible to make them go down to the yard." "So then, the gendarmes went up to their rooms... and seized the children, who struggled and screamed as they were forced into the yard." "Mr Wellers, when you arrived at Auschwitz in 1944, did you, during that time, see any of the children you had encountered before still alive?" "No, obviously not." "The French police also arrested children." "Paris asked me what was to be done with these children." "I telegraphed through what it says here." ""With renewed transports to the General Government the children's transports can start rolling. "" "The fact that it took eleven days to come to a decision in this matter proves that on my part I had to submit the matter to my superiors via the official channels." "I was not authorised to make such a decision." "And when my superiors informed me of the decision, eleven days later," "I informed Paris in accordance with my orders." "The documents from France prove and demonstrate that my role was that of an transmitting agency as documents from the other countries rarely do." "They have been preserved more or less completely." "You already said that, if a particular task took a long time, it proves that you did not deal with it personally." "Are you implying that you were more efficient than other people working at your department?" "No, I'm not, your Honour." "But... if it took such a long time, it proves to me that the competences were not clearly defined and first required negotiation with the head of the department." "I couldn't decide on a case if I wasn't authorised to do so." "And it took time to achieve clarification in these matters." "But when the competences were defined from the start, one could act in accordance with the normal official procedure." "I have drawn up a diagram." "Here, it goes down... to Muller, down to the circle." "Then there's an arrow leading to the head of Security." "It's difficult to show this in a diagram." "This arrow here leads directly to Muller." "Court rise!" "The 71st hearing is now open." "Now, Wannsee." "The Wannsee Conference." "In one paragraph in the minutes, it says:" ""Finally, various possible types of solution were discussed. "" "Do you remember this?" "Or do you want to see it?" "I remember that it was in the minutes." "Do you remember what was discussed?" "Different methods of killing." " Methods of killing?" " Yes." "Now, how do you explain why, following the conference, precisely these three men," "Heydrich, Muller and Eichmann, stayed on to celebrate?" " Celebrate?" " Heydrich and Muller, obviously." " But why Eichmann?" " I had to write the minutes." "We three were the only ones left." "Heydrich gave instructions as to how he wanted the minutes written up." "And after he had given the points to be included, the subject was not mentioned again." "I was invited to drink a glass of Cognac..." "or two or three." "That's what happened." "You told my colleague, Judge Raveh, that in the part not included in the minutes," "the methods of killing were discussed." "Yes." "Who talked about the subject?" "I don't recall the details, your Honour." "But I know that these gentlemen were sitting together and that they talked about it using... very blunt words, not the words I was later told to put in the minutes." "They talked about it in very blunt terms... without any circumlocution." "I certainly wouldn't remember this, were it not for the fact that I said to myself:" ""Well, well!" "There's Stuckart" ""who is always so..." "meticulous and..." ""and a pettifogging stickler for the rules!"" "And at this moment..." "His tone was..." "He was using a vocabulary far removed from legal language." "What did he say on the subject?" "I forget the details." "Not the details..." "In general!" "They talked about killing, elimination, extermination." "Since I had to prepare the minutes," "I couldn't stay and listen to what was said." "But the words reached my ear." "The room wasn't very big and I could make out certain words." "And what was said about this important subject you claim to have completely forgotten?" "Your Honour, that's not..." "the more important point is..." "Do you mean to say that the methods of killing are a subject of no importance?" "Oh, the methods of killing?" "That's what we're talking about!" "Was killing by gas discussed?" "No, not by gas." "Quiet please!" "We ask the Court to listen to several passages to which we want to draw its attention." "These tapes will be heard in the original." "I remember that afterwards certain people present spoke." "It was the first time I attended a conference with the participation of such senior officials as the Secretaries of State." "Everyone's behaviour was very calm, very friendly and very courteous." "Not very much was said and it didn't go on very long." "We were served a Cognac before or afterwards and the affair was over." "I felt satisfied as to my personal self examination with regard to the result of the Wannsee Conference." "'At that moment I felt the kind of satisfaction Pontius Pilate must have felt because I felt devoid of any guilt." "The prominent figures of the Reich spoke at the Wannsee Conference." "The Popes had given their orders." "I had to obey." "I kept this in mind throughout the following years..." "Thank you." "But I always understood, when Pontius Pilate washed his hands," "it was referring to an introspective process." "I was just going to talk about that." "I told myself that I did all I could," "I was an instrument in the hands of superior powers." "To put it crudely," "I had to wash my hands in innocence for myself." "This is how I interpret it." "As to myself, it didn't concern so much exterior factors but rather the way I regarded myself." "So, when you washed your hands in 1942, it was a form of... mental reservation?" "In 1942?" " At the Wannsee Conference!" " Oh, the Wannsee Conference!" "Was it a form of mental reservation?" "Dr Melkman, you were born in Holland?" "Yes." "Apart from having suffered personally from what happened to the Jews in Holland during the war, you have also researched the subject." "Yes, in particular at the Yad Vashem Memorial of which I was director but I started my research earlier..." "When were you director of the Yad Vashem Memorial?" "From 1957 to 1960." "Did you know Mr. Edelstein?" "Yes." "Where did he come from and what was his role in connection with the Jewish Council?" "Edelstein arrived in March, he came from Prague" "and his mission was to show the Jews how to create a Judenrat (Jewish Council), and how to collaborate with the Germans." " We had a meeting..." " Collaborate in what sense?" "Explain to us." "The sort of relations it should have with the Germans." "Apparently, the Jews in Holland didn't know how to do this." "He and I attended a meeting of the leaders of the Zionist Federation, at the house of its President, who later perished in Bergen-Belsen." "I want to say that Edelstein seemed to me like a Jew who was sincere, devout and loyal." "Who sent him to Holland?" "The German authorities, otherwise he would never have been able to come." "Would you now explain to the Court how the deportations to the East were organised... how you were informed, how the people were selected..." "The Commandant informed the leadership... the Jewish leadership at the camp at Westerbork that... that the next morning, a certain number" "had to be sent." "They wanted a thousand, or two or three thousand." "The Jewish leadership had to provide a list of names, the names of the people who had to leave." "A certain number had to be added to each quota because of the possibility that some of them would die en route, and on arrival in Auschwitz the number had to be exact." "So, if they asked for 1,000, 1,020 were sent." "Sometimes the people on the list had preferred status" "which meant they were protected from deportation." "And when there was not enough human material, their special status was cancelled." "Did you know then that they were going to their deaths?" "We didn't know that... they were going to their certain deaths." "I can only say this:" "Early in 1943, I saw a type of... official report, addressed to the Judenrat, to the Jewish Council." "It said that... that apparently there were fewer Jews in Poland than before." "And, we already knew that many Jews had been sent to Poland." "Dr Melkman, these people on the lists, when did they leave?" "The next morning they all had to assemble" "in the main road where the train was waiting." "They had to get on and in general the train left at 11 o'clock in the morning." "Thank you." "Dr Servatius?" "I have no questions." "I ask the audience to be quiet." "Those who want to leave should do so quickly." "I call the witness Gedalia Ben-Zvi." "Put the Yarmulka on your head." "I swear by God that my testimony before this Court will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth." "Your full name?" "Ben-Zvi Gedalia." "Describe how you arrived in Auschwitz." "After a journey of I don't know exactly how many days, in goods wagons with about 40 persons per wagon, we arrived in Birkenau, not in Auschwitz." "At the ramp in Birkenau, which I would later get to know very well." "Your number is quite low, what is it?" "It's 37017." "I should have mentioned that in Birkenau at the time of my arrival, they tattooed us on the chest." "Only later was it changed to the arm." "What work did you do in Auschwitz?" "I had different tasks..." "I went at night... to receive the people arriving in Birkenau." "I was next to the railway when they arrived." "There was always a vehicle marked with a Red Cross in case of possible incidents." "In case someone resisted or went mad, became violent or had a fit." "To prevent panic or disorder, they put them inside the vehicle to calm them down." "A vehicle of the Red Cross?" "Yes, a vehicle of the Red Cross." "Whenever a transport arrived it was there." "It was the same vehicle where the cans with the Zyklon B were loaded and later delivered to the gas chambers." "The German Red Cross?" "The German Red Cross." "Do you recall an incident on a transport from Bedzin?" "Tell us, please." "The people usually arrived with their things." "But on this transport, they arrived with nothing." "There were approximately 150 crowded into each wagon." "When the S.S. opened the doors, people literally poured out onto the ground because the wagons were so packed." "Only those who... who had been trampled or suffocated were still inside the wagons, either dead or half dead." "They gave out so much heat... they were still hot..." "How can I put it?" "Their bodies were steaming." "Yes." "Go on, please." "We stayed on the side until the order came:" ""Get in the wagons, dirty Jews!"" "So... among shouts and blows, we got into the wagons to disentangle" "the bodies." "It was hard work because they were snarled up, they were... completely entangled." "Sometimes when we pulled a leg or an arm, the skin tore because of the heat." "It was hard work." "It took several hours to empty one wagon." "Groups of four men worked in each wagon." "Thank you, that's all." "Any questions, Dr Servatius?" "No, no questions." " Thank you." " Thank you, Mr. Ben-Zvi." "I call the witness Abraham Aviel." "Please stand up, Madam." "Raise your right hand..." "No, no, please!" "...that my testimony will be the truth the whole truth will be the truth that my testimony in this trial..." "What is your name?" "...you arrived from Norway with your husband, Rabbi Samuel?" "When were you born?" "In 1928." "...some months before the deportations started transports of the RSHA-Bialystok these transports were very detrimental... for the regular emigration transports and more transports Z, zydov, Jew why, I don't know," "I did nothing to harm them." "I didn't owe them anything," "And yet I was beaten until I bled." " It's me." " It's you." "...which was directed by Eichmann some S.S., and with them was the accused the blood on their head and chest had already coagulated but she's dead!" ""You're crazy!" "She is 'SB'!" (Special Treatment)" ""...you know who I am!" "I give the orders here!"" ""..." "Goods for blood!" "Blood for goods! "" "...Even though..." "endangering 15,000 people a head, a foot what could we do?" "They beat us and kept beating us without stopping the Popes for example, throughout the centuries in their Councils some didn't have the right to leave their homes he rained blows on me, I let go of the corpse." "Then, once again," "I carried him towards..." "I pulled the corpse... this man..." "all the way to the cart they packed it... as full as they could." "There were so many people... that they could hardly shut the door when the work was finished and it was a cold day... the Kapo felt sorry for us and said:" ""Children," ""it's cold outside," ""go and warm up in the gas chambers, there's nobody left in there. "" "...it was..." "Excuse me..." "There, there, it'll pass." "It's all right." "Have some water." "Why didn't you resist?" "Why did you get on the train?" "Have you managed to forget what you went through?" "No, I..." "I don't sleep at night." "I can't get to sleep, it haunts me all the time." "...one question is hanging over us:" "Why didn't they revolt?" "As a Jew who fought," "I absolutely repudiate this question... if it implies the slightest accusation." "Thank you very much." "Mr. Hausner, we have just heard profoundly distressing matters related in the language of a poet." "But... with this testimony, we are getting away from the object of this trial." "I'm sorry to have to say this at the end of this testimony." "No, it's a pity..." "The Court has a certain conception of what this trial should be." "The prosecution must therefore conduct its argument in accordance with what the Court says." "This is what we are doing, your Honour." "I must state that the line of this trial is not being followed in the way it should be." "Maybe that's because you are not aware of all the elements..." "We heard your opening speech which I believe outlines very well what you intend to demonstrate..." "Were these Jews sent to the death camps?" "Yes or no?" "I'm not denying it, I've never denied it." "I had orders to carry out by virtue of my duty and my oath of allegiance." "I couldn't shirk my duty and I have never tried to." "But I didn't act willingly as my initial efforts clearly show." "The following is a report of a meeting" "where it was decided how frequently the trains should run from Warsaw to Treblinka, from Radom to Treblinka, from Cracow to Belzec, from Lvov to Belzec, determining two trains a day from Warsaw to Treblinka, one a day from Radom to Treblinka," "one a day from Cracow to Belzec, one a day from Lvov to Belzec, one a day from Radom to Sobibor, one a day from the Northern station in Lublin to Belzec, one a day from the Central station in Lublin to Sobibor" "and so on and so forth." "Did you know that sometimes on these transports," "hundreds of people died before they even reached their destination?" "No, I didn't know." "I wasn't responsible for the escorts of the transports." "It was the duty of the Order Police." "But I did hear and read about it." "You did nothing to prevent it." "Had I had the power to prevent this," "I wouldn't even have started, but rather acted according to my ideas and intentions." "There was nothing you could do to prevent these deaths?" "Your Honour, I didn't accompany the transports." "The orders given to the Order Police were given to them and it was up to them to execute these orders." "From my post in Berlin I couldn't possibly know what was going on on the way from X to Y." "Look at the bottom of the first page of this document where it says..." ""The task of this department..."" "Yes." "It defines four tasks..." ""Registration of persons..." ""...of one group of individuals." " "Concentration..." " Yes." " "Deportation..." " Yes." ""Confiscation of posessions." "... concentration, confiscation..."" "Yes... yes." "Weren't they part of your work, these four tasks?" "Yes, that's correct." "The Security Police chief gave orders via the head of department if this was necessary." "And the head of department IV instructed me to carry them out in this or that way." "In other words you were completely passive?" "One can't exactly say passive." "I did what I have just described and I obeyed and executed the orders I received." "But the order had already been given!" "But if that had been so," "Heydrich would have told me, after the Wannsee Conference:" ""Eichmann, it's all settled, get on with it, do what you want and get it done quickly!"" "But it didn't happen like that." "Himmler continued to give order after order, and the hundreds of offices involved in some way had to fulfil their part in the operation." "Unfortunately I was caught up in this." "Regarding these measures, I had to settle the matters" "I had been ordered to deal with." "I've never denied it and I'm not denying it now." "You claim you weren't a normal recipient of orders, that you contributed to the thinking process." "Is it true?" "Did you say that?" "No, I don't believe so." " What, you didn't think?" " Pardon?" "You didn't think?" "You were an imbecile?" "You didn't contribute to the thinking process?" "Contribute?" " Yes!" " Of course, I did!" " You're not an idiot?" " No." " An idealist, then?" " An idealist, yes..." "So, it's true what it says here!" "I was not a..." "I was a recipient of orders..." "It's in writing, here!" "I dealt with Jewish affairs out of idealism as long as the values involved were constructive but not when they were destructive." "As to the negative things, I acted not as an idealist... but as a pessimist." "I wrote that down somewhere." "When in several passages... you use the terms:" ""As far as we're concerned, no further problems", does it mean, that practicalities of both the capacity and the transport had been resolved?" "That the deportation could commence?" "Yes, because it says:" ""By order of..."" "You wrote it yourself." "I signed the letter, but I didn't write it." "this can easily be explained, as the documents were exchanged between the different departments." "I will not allow reactions like that." "If you wish to listen to the testimony, keep quiet." "As a rule, instructions for drafting letters" "were given to the section by the head of the department." "The section thus had to follow these instructions and write the letter." "Normally, the letter was altered several times depending on the function of its recipient." "The head of department also informed the section by a system of coloured crosses, if he wanted to sign the letter himself or have it signed by the head of the security police." "These... these instructions were communicated by a blue cross or a red one..." "That is irrelevant!" "We expect precise answers to precise questions... as far as you are able to provide them." "Do you understand?" "You admit that if such a letter, even if drafted by one of your assistants," "was signed by your hand, you are responsible for its contents?" "Of course, if I signed the letter" "I was authorised to do so by my superior." "Since he's not here to testify, I am." "That was not my question." "Do you assume the responsibility in this matter, yes or no?" "I cannot assume it since I do not see why I should be punished for what I had to sign in accordance with my orders." "You have said this so many times already," "I assure you we have not forgotten." "I assure you that the court already knows that your argument is that the orders came from Muller." "But it was you who drafted them, who gave them, wasn't it?" "I apologise." "I had forgotten." "You said that this morning." "But it is unacceptable for me when I hear that I gave orders to a commander." "That makes me react automatically." "I can't stop myself." "I will avoid reacting like that in future." "Yes." "It is quite clear that your reactions are automatic." "I ask you to refrain from any such reactions." "Continue." "It says: "I will give further instructions..."" "Are you still trying to tell me:" ""I" doesn't mean "I"?" "No, no!" "It's German bureaucratic language." "It has nothing to do with me." "I wasn't writing private letters." "We turn now to the following document, 154... given here as T/37... 93 in brackets, where it states:" ""Eichmann summoned the Jewish Council to the Majestic Hotel," ""to set out his plan." ""There Lieutenant-colonel S.S. Eichmann spoke." ""First he spoke about the stars for the Jews," ""saying that the Jewish Council would have to supply them." ""He said that about 3 million" ""would be needed." ""He also had to be notified" ""of any change of address and give his permission for this." ""If the Jews behaved correctly, nothing would happen to them. "" "Further on in the deposition, it says:" ""Eichmann mentioned his great interest in Jewish libraries and art." ""He has been dealing with Jewish affairs since 1934" ""and he speaks Hebrew better than we do." ""We told him that our museum" ""contained very old books and Jewish antiquities." ""He said he would visit it." ""The Jewish community should understand that what is demanded of them is merely order and discipline. "" "Mr. Freudiger, did you meet" "Adolf Eichmann in Budapest?" "Yes." "How long did this meeting last?" "Half and hour, at most." "From what you have said, I understand that the general tone was reassuring." "Yes, absolutely." "I don't remember exactly if it was the first or the second meeting, when we were told that all the Jewish community institutions were being dissolved, as everything was to be centralised in one place." ""Responsible for us and with which we could negotiate. "" "How many members or representatives did this council, which was answerable to the Germans, consist of?" "They said that... no more than four or five persons." "They didn't called it 'Judenrat'." "This was also intended to reassure us, as it was well known what a 'Judenrat' was." "They called it the 'Zentralrat', a sort of central committee of the Jewish community." "There were seven members." "I was one of the seven." "At the same meeting, it was discussed... the accused proposed or agreed to exempt close relatives from ghettoisation." "Close relatives of whom?" "Close relatives of the Central Council." "Had you requested this?" "No, we had not." "One more question." "To what extent did you give information about what was happening" "to the various communities in the provinces which had been deported, before and during the deportations?" "By the time we knew when we realised what Auschwitz was, the Jews from the east and north-east of Hungary," "300,000 of them, had already been deported." "We informed them." "They already knew what was in store for them." "But what could we do?" "What could we do?" "No, no!" "Remove that man!" "Silence in court!" "Silence in court!" "If order is not restored, I will adjourn the hearing!" "For the last time, I call for silence." "You can discuss it later." "I beg your pardon, your Honour." "With reference to what I said just now, before the incident, people now say that they were not told to flee." "But 50% of those who fled were captured and killed." "So we would have been reproached for telling them to flee." "They were caught simply because they didn't have anywhere to flee to." "I am not sure whether this answers the question." "Him!" "Him!" "They reassured us to save their own families!" "Remove that man." "The hearing is adjourned." "Court rise!" "It didn't trouble you to be the big forwarding agent of death?" "It troubled me greatly, more than anyone could imagine." "I repeatedly went to my superior to request a transfer to other duties." " I..." " But never in writing!" "No, not in writing, it wasn't customary." "Never in writing." "Yes." "I would like to know... how many times a week you met with Muller," "Mr Lieutenant-colonel?" "At least twice." "Some weeks, I had contact with Muller every day, either by telephone or if he summoned me to his office." "Officially I reported to him twice a week... with my files..." "How long did these meetings last?" "In general, they lasted an hour, an hour and a half, at most." "You say that during the course of these twice-weekly meetings, you settled questions as and when they arose." "Is that correct?" "Yes, I gave him the files for consultation collected in my folder marked "For consultation", and asked for his instructions." "Either decisions were made or he kept them to discuss with his superior." "That's what the procedure was." "Are you saying that he dictated everything to you word for word, like a typist?" "Or did you participate in making the decisions?" "Are you a Lieutenant-colonel or a shorthand typist?" "I have just told you in detail the manner in which this happened according to official procedure." "Muller's decisions and instructions created precedents, on which we based ourselves for similar cases..." " Shall we move on?" " Yes, your Honour." "You recall the sterilisations..." "Mr. Hausner, first I have a small question to ask." "Yes, your Honour." "If I understand correctly, there were three categories..." "One category of cases where a precedent already existed, ...and you acted on your own." " Yes." "The second category... consisted of cases for which there was no precedent." " I had to consult Muller." " Without making a proposal?" "That is correct." "The third category between the two others, maybe yes, maybe no." "Did you make any kind of proposal?" "Or how would you define it?" "No, not a proposal." "I drew his attention to the fact that a fortnight or several months previously, he had taken a particular decision in a similar case." "I would ask him if the same decision was to be taken here on the basis of the decision made three months previously." "My assistant also had to bring the case to my notice." " Without making a proposal?" " That is correct." "This created extra work for my bureau, as a memorandum had to be made and a file opened on account of every trifle." "If that was so, why didn't Muller remove you from your post?" "I can't say." "I would have welcomed it." "Perhaps because I was very meticulous... very meticulous, and because I followed instructions and obeyed orders." "Muller was also..." "He was an official who had achieved a high position due to his accuracy." "Maybe that was one of the reasons." "And my manner of dealing with people was not brusque, I was not the sort to... to get involved in petty feuding or jealousies." "As is often the case for functionaries, there are people who disrupt the service purely for reasons of personal ambition." "I simply obeyed orders and carried on quietly with my work." "Perhaps that was why..." "I will also permit myself to depart from the habitual procedure" "by abandoning Hebrew for a moment to address the accused in his own language." "Did you never experience... a conflict... what one could call a conflict of conscience?" "Between your... duty and your conscience?" "One could call it a state of being split..." "Being split?" "A conscious split state, where one could flee from one side to the other." "It was necessary to abandon one's personal conscience?" "Yes, one could say that." "Because one could not control or regulate it oneself." "Except if one accepted the personal consequences." "One could have said:" ""I refuse to do this"." "But I don't know what would have happened then." "If there had been more civil courage, things would have been different." "Don't you think so?" "Of course, if this civil courage had been hierarchically organised." "Then it wasn't a fate... an inevitable fate?" "It's a question of human behaviour." "That's how it happened, it was wartime, everyone thought:" ""It's useless to fight against it," ""it's only a drop in the ocean, what use is it?" "There's no point in it it will do neither good nor harm..."" "It was also connected with the times, I think, with the era, with ideological education, rigid discipline, and all that kind of thing." "At that time, it was very difficult... for an individual... to accept the consequences... of refusing to obey orders." "One was living at a time where crime was legalised by the state." "It was the responsibility of those who gave the orders." "According to you, the idealist you claim to have been is defined as someone... who executes the orders he receives from above to the best of his ability." "For me, that meant adherence to the nationalism being preached, and, as a nationalist, to do my duty according to my oath of allegiance." "That's how I understood it." "Today I realise that all nationalism, taken to extremes," "leads to gross egoism and from there, it is only a small step to radicalism." "The general outlines, both strategic and tactical, of the extermination of the Jews were planned as a campaign on psychological... like psychological warfare, using tactical deception... and so on." "I believe that it gradually crystallised during the course of events." "And if necessary," "Himmler gave orders directly." "I do not think that originally - how can I put it " "a discussion about what actions were to be taken, in which the whole thing was planned down to the last detail..." "I believe it somehow resulted automatically..." "So you say it evolved organically over the course of time." "Yes." "That's how I'd describe it." "For example, first there were the Jewish communities... in Vienna," "Prague and then Berlin... which were placed under the control of the Gestapo for the purpose of emigration." "First centralisation of the Jewish organisations took place, together with their parent organisation." "I am talking about the supervision by the Gestapo." "Yes." "The Jewish representatives were given the task... of registering the members of their communities for the purpose of emigration, to settle the question of their property and to set up a machinery of strict controls... which greatly facilitated emigration." "And rapidly and smoothly, this switched to deportation." "Yes." "Then there was the idea of the Jewish Councils... in Poland." "Yes." "Then in Hungary, and before that in Holland." "This must have started in Holland, with the Jewish Council in Amsterdam, then in Poland, or perhaps even simultaneously, and then finally in Hungary." "Yes." "These Jewish Councils, as instruments... of the German policy towards the Jews, largely facilitated the application of the measures taken against the Jews... and saved a great deal of manpower, police as well as officials." "Yes." "The councils, by misleading the victims... made this work easier, and put the Jews to work for their own extermination." "Yes, that is correct." "Please translate." "Sit down during the translation, it will take some time." "He can put on his headphones, if he wants to." "When you gave the order... in T/476... which corresponds to our 266... to send the transports to Cholm, where were they headed?" "It says here: to Cholm." "In other words, to Sobibor!" "As far as I know, it's not the same place as Sobibor." "But it's the station from where you sent these people to Sobibor, to Treblinka, and to Majdanek." "It says: "Cholm", so it must be Cholm." "It says: "via Cholm"." "People were sent from Cholm?" "When you gave orders to transport people to Cholm, what was their final destination?" "The death camps!" "Will you finally tell us?" "You say you don't want to evade anything, so tell us openly!" "To Cholm." "In my statement, I said that my superior sent me there and that I had seen how the Jews were gassed, and had written a report on it." "No, you were talking about Kulmhof!" " Chelmno." " It's the same place." "It's not the same place!" "Kulm is Chelmno." "Kulm - hof!" " All right, Kulm or Kulmhof..." " Kulm is is the Polish name for Chelm!" "No, there's a Kulm in the Warthegau." "Yes, yes." "And Kulmhof is the same place." " Yes, but it's not Cholm." " Agreed!" "I say that in Polish, Kolm, Kulm, Kulmhof, is Chelmno." "No, there's a Chelmno and a Chelm." "They're different places." "Yes, all right, agreed, but what is the Polish name for Kulm or Kulmhof?" "For Kulmhof?" "Chelmno." "But that's what I said!" "But it's not Cholm." " Kulm and Kulmhof are close." " It's the same place." "That's what I think." "I'm sorry, I still don't understand a thing." "The Kolm in this telegram, Kolm." " Cholm!" " Cholm!" "It isn't in the Warthegau..." "No, it's in the General Government." "It's the famous Chelm." "Does the accused know that?" "It says: "General Government."" " Ask him!" " He talked about the Warthegau." "I ask the accused:" "It's not Kulm or Kulmhof in the Warthegau?" "Yes, it says: "General Goverment"." "I thought that Cholm was the same as Kulm or Kulmhof." "But I'm not trying to avoid the question as Attorney General is implying." "In my statement, I said that I had been there." "But when I read "Cholm"," "I was sure that was Kulm in the Warthegau." "From there, they were sent to their death," " weren't they?" " I have never been to Cholm, but it is entirely possible, and I am not denying it, that it was also a death camp." "But I don't know." "I was ordered to present myself to Heydrich." "He told me:" ""The F?" "hrer has ordered the extermination... the physical extermination of the Jews. "" "He ordered me to go to Lublin and contact Globocnik." "I arrived in Lublin." "The facilities were not yet in operation." "I returned to Berlin and made my report to my superior, General Muller, and to the chief of the Security Police, in accordance with my orders, on what I had seen." "In the case of the second journey, it wasn't Heydrich but Muller who ordered it." "He told me to go to the Warthegau and informed me that at Kulm or Kulmhof" "Jews were being gassed, and he requested a report on how this had been carried out." "At Kulmhof, I observed this process in accordance with my orders." "I took notes, returned to Berlin, and made my report to Muller about what I had seen." "After I had made my report to Muller, I asked him for the first time to transfer me to other duties, saying I was not the right man for this task." "Muller answered that a soldier at the front had no choice where he was posted and had to do his duty wherever he was sent." "After my visit to Kulm," "Muller sent me on another mission, this time to Minsk." "Muller told me that executions were taking place in Minsk." "He wanted a report on this." "I went to Minsk." "There an extermination operation was just finishing." "I saw machine gunners firing into a mass of people who were standing in a ditch." "It was on that occasion that I saw, as I have said, a child shot in its mother's arms." "It was after visiting these places in accordance with the orders, and having made my report on what I had seen, that I was ordered to Auschwitz to report to Muller on this matter." "Subsequently, I received an order to go to Lublin again." "I was to deliver to General Globocnik a letter which instructed him... which authorised him to kill 150,000 or 250,000 Jews." "I can remember hearing that Globocnik had the strange idea of having written authorisation sent after the fact." "He'd apparently requested it." "I also remember as I was driving through the outskirts of Lemberg," "I saw something" "I had never seen before:" "A fountain of blood." "I came to a place where some Jews had been shot some time before." "Probably due to the pressure of the gas, the blood was shooting up from the ground like a fountain." "Those were the four journeys I made in the course of my duties, and where I had direct contact with the extermination of the Jews." "I was in contact against my will." "I had to obey." "I had to do it." "I have nothing more to say on this subject." "Someone involved in the extermination of the Jews, was he a criminal in your eyes?" "He was unfortunate." "Was he a criminal?" "I can't answer this question, as I was never put in that sort of situation." "You saw Hoess doing it at Auschwitz." "Did you think he was a criminal, a murderer?" "A criminal or not?" "I felt sorry for him and pitied him." "Did you consider him a criminal, yes or no?" "I refuse to reveal my inner feelings." "I appeal to the Court." "You must reply to all questions unless I tell you otherwise." "Yes, your Honour, I am prepared to do so, but I feel as if I'm being grilled like a steak!" "Carry on, Mr. Hausner." "You cannot evade the question." "What did you think of the extermination programme, which you knew about, and the people who carried it out?" "Answer the question." "A man can be put in a situation which drives him almost mad and where it is only a small step, taken without reflection, before he reaches for his pistol." "Each individual is free to react in his own way." "I can only say how I would probably have reacted." "If I had been ordered to carry out the extermination," "I would probably have shot myself there and then," "I think." "I can't say for sure what I would have done." "But... knowing my own reactions and what I knew, then," "I believe that I would have put an end to myself, in order to remove myself... from this situation." "During the course of your interrogation by the police," "you stated:" ""I know that I will be found guilty" ""of complicity to murder." ""I know that I risk the death penalty." ""I do not ask for mercy because I do not deserve it. "" "You said that you were prepared to hang yourself in public, to atone for the abominable crimes that had been perpetrated." "Those are your own words, taken from page 361 of your statement." "Do you admit that you are complicit in the murder of millions of Jews?" " From the legal point of view..." " My question is not legal!" "In your conscience, do you consider yourself guilty of complicity in the murder of millions of Jews, yes or no?" "In human terms, yes." "Because I am guilty of organising the deportations." "Remorse changes nothing, it won't bring anyone back to life." "Remorse is pointless." "Remorse is for little children." "What is more important is to find a way to prevent these things happening in future." "And I intend to request permission, after the trial is over, to treat these matters in the form of a book, quite openly." "There I am prepared to call a spade a spade, as a warning to present and future generations." "One moment, Mr. Hausner." "I wish to address the accused." "You must understand that it is your duty to say everything you would write in this book you have just mentioned." "Since you have asked me, your Honour, to give a clear answer," "I must state that I consider this murder, the extermination of the Jews, to be one of the greatest crimes in the history of mankind." "In conclusion, I would like to state that even at that time, I personally thought that this violent solution was not justified." "...was not justified." "Even at that time, I considered it to be a monstrous act." "I was unfortunately bound by my oath of allegiance, and my work entailed the organisation of the transports." "And I could not be released from my oath." "I do not feel responsible before my own inner being." "I felt free of guilt." "I was very relieved that I had nothing to do with the physical extermination, that I had nothing to do." "The work I was ordered to do was plenty enough for me." "I was suited to the work in the section," "I did my duty in accordance with my orders." "And I was never reprimanded for not having fulfilled my duty." "...for not having fulfilled my duty." "I still stand by that today."