"Best Documentary series ever" "Cameras are rolling on every word and movement of the west Memphis murder trials as reporters scurry to get the story." "But as Deirdre koon reports, the crew behind one camera isn't chasing a story." "They're creating a comment on society." "This is the scene at the corning courthouse-- the defense, the prosecution, and this film crew getting ready for the day ahead." "These New York filmmakers spent the last eight months getting to intimately know the people involved in the case." "The filmmakers are considering calling the documentary" ""paradise lost." They expect it to air on hbo in about a year." "Is it fair to say that following the hbo documentaries," " the "paradise lost" documentaries..." " Yes." " ...there became sort of a public-- - that's-- let me finish my question, I'm sorry-- there became sort of a public debate" "or controversy about whether the west Memphis three" " had been wrongfully convicted?" " Yes." "And that public controversy-- and I understand your position that it was caused by the documentaries, but that public controversy" "really did expand to be a national controversy?" "Right." "It's almost a cause." "Last time we saw them, the three boys were riding bikes together," "and they headed down towards a wooded area at the end of the street, which was about 6:30 yesterday evening." "And they're always in the house before dark." "None of the three have ever been missing or taken off ever before." "What's going through your mind as a parent?" "I'm scared to death." "That's, you know, plain and simple." "I'm scared for the safety and welfare of all three boys and would appreciate any help that anyone would give us in recovering our three sons." "* welcome to where time stands still * * no one leaves and no one will... * green one on the left side there, red one on the right side." "* dream the same thing every night *" "* I see our freedom in my sights... *" "Don't let nobody come up here." "Don't let nobody in here." "* my brain seem scarred * * sleep, my friend, and you will see * * the dream is my reality * * they keep me locked up in this cage * * can't they see it's why my brain says *" "* "rage"?" "* sanitarium * leave me be" "* sanitarium * just leave me alone... * build my fear of what's out there * * cannot breathe the open air... *" "West Memphis investigators continue to track down leads in the case, but they still have no suspects." "We've got 28,000-30,000 people in west Memphis." "And as far as I'm concerned, everybody's a suspect." "Instead of letting their kids walk home from school, parents started picking them up." "And in this middle-class neighborhood, people wonder why no one has been arrested for the murders." "The reward for information leading to the conviction of the killer or killers has skyrocketed and is now at $25,000." "All of west Memphis-- all of west Memphis is just torn up." "Get out of the way of the van." "People in west Memphis gathered in church today to count their blessings" "after an emotional week capped by the arrests." "For more than a month, the savage murders of Steve branch, Chris byers, and Michael Moore had nagged people's conscience." "At a press conference, inspector Gary gitchell said the case against the accused teens is very strong." "On the scale from one to 10, how solid do you think the case is?" "11." "Jessie misskelley, Damien echols, and Jason Baldwin are now convicted killers." "Do you have any legal reason to show the court or give the court at this time as to why sentence should not be imposed?" " Because I'm innocent." " Pardon?" "Because I'm innocent." "Michael was kind of like-- kind of like Bart Simpson." "He had a great sense of humor." "He could make you laugh no matter how depressed you was, no matter how bad things were going." "He always wanted everybody to be in a good mood." "And he-- he could make anybody laugh." "He'd come up with the silliest things." "I damn sure miss him." " Stevie was a fine boy." " He was." "We gave him a nice home, we felt like." "And, you know, we're sad that this-- you know, this has happened." "We're sad that he's gone." "I always said that Christopher was a gift, that Christopher was my gift." "I have asked God "why?" You know?" ""If you were going to take him, why didn't you take him when he was tiny?"" "You know?" ""Why did it--?" You know," ""why did you let me love him for eight years?"" "Damien echols, Jason Baldwin, jessie misskelley Jr.," "I hope you all burn in hell and are tormented for eternity and a day." "I couldn't ever put into words how much I hate you." "I know, no matter what I say or do, there are still going to be people who won't believe it, no matter what." "But I did not kill those children or anybody else." "I had nothing to do with it, and I know nothing about it." "If I could talk to the families of the victims right now, they were led to believe by the police that we'd done it, and so I understand if they hate us, you know, hate me." "But I didn't do it, you know?" "I didn't have anything to do with it." "And I'm sorry that your kids are dead." "I'm sorry about that." "But all I ask is that y'all go back and look at the evidence." "Just-- just stop and think and don't let your emotions about it all get to your head" "and just stop and think and look back at the evidence." "And look where the evidence does point." "And ask yourself," ""now who do you think really done it?"" "They know that they got three innocent people locked up for a crime they didn't commit." "I didn't kill nobody." "But, you know, to me, I think it's wrong, because, you know, it ain't about us." "It's about the victims theirselves, you know what I'm saying?" "They need peace." "The victim's family needs peace." "And I think the police owes that to 'em." "The facts of the crime scene are actually a pretty interesting part of the case, because this crime took place in a wooded area." "It was near two major freeways." "It happened right near a truck stop, which is now closed." "But it was a major truck stop." "People would be in and out of that truck stop 24 hours a day." "It was open 24 hours a day." "And it also adjoined a 24-hour-a-day truck wash place." "So there was-- there was traffic in that area." "There was so much hysteria around the nature of the crimes." "There was a lot of fear in the community." "And naturally there was an incredible amount of pressure on the police to find who's responsible." "But as days go by, there isn't-- the evidence doesn't obviously point to any particular individual, again," "because there's very little left at the scene." "At about 6:00 on may the 5th," "Chris byers, Stevie branch, and Michael Moore were last seen headed toward Robin hood hills." "The pipe crosses 10-mile bayou." "This is the trail that goes across the area which is known as turtle hill." "The trail will either split and go that way, which leads into the area of the crime scene, which lays right in this area, or the trail continues straight forward and goes into the back end of blue beacon." "I was directed by an officer that they had-- had found a tennis shoe floating in a ditch." "I had to go down to cross to get on the other side to get closer and fell into the water here and came up the bank and around, over to the area where the tennis shoe was." "I walked around a tree and stepped off into the water and was reaching for the tennis shoe." "And with my feet I could feel an object." "And I raised up and I discovered this body." "Detective Ridge, I believe that you'd indicated earlier something about a stick in the water stuck in the water?" " Yes, sir." " Tell me about that again." "There was a stick in the water that had a shirt around the end of it, and that shirt was jobbed down into the mud with the stick." "Exhibit number 22." "You know, the ligature-- the way that Michael Moore was tied and Stevie branch was tied with ligatures," "right hand to right foot, left hand to left foot." "And Christopher byers's penis had been removed." "I found him tied as the other victims had been tied." "Was there any visible blood found at the crime scene?" "Any visible blood?" "Not on the ground." "If you really look at the crime scene and the condition of the bodies and so forth, it's almost a blank crime scene." "The bodies are concealed, and then they're brought up, and the kids are hogtied with shoelaces," "and there's not a lot of blood at the scene." "So it's almost like a projection screen on which you can create any kind of theory about how and why the crime was done." "Well, right down here would be the house, 1400 east barton." "It makes you kind of think what life might have been if this crime hadn't have happened." "Fears of satanic cults in crittenden county reached their peak last week when the teenagers were arrested." "Names of several suspects appear on railroad trestles along with what appear to be satanic symbols." "People from school that don't even know him said that he was a devil worshipper." "And he doesn't worship the devil and he's not in any cult." "So many unanswered questions, all from a senseless act." "In the neighborhood, rumors begin." "Well, I've heard things before about cults and I really didn't believe it," "but some of the kids in the neighborhood I've talked to say there is-- they had found some animals back there" "when they played back there." "It looks like they've been cut up." "Boy, it sure looks rough-- windows boarded up," "man, the yard boarded up." "Doesn't look good." "At some time, all three suspects in the west Memphis murder case have lived in the lakeshore trailer park." "Residents here claim to have seen strange, ritualistic meetings at the park prior to the murders." "Joni dwyer lives next door to Jason Baldwin." "Her three boys often played with Jason." "But that all changed after her husband found some drawings Jason had done." "My husband just didn't like what he saw in them drawings." "He said-- you know, he told my son, "this is devil worshipping,"" "that, you know, he had snakes, and the sayings they had." "Some of them were in Latin and stuff." "A lot of memories." "A lot of memories." "Christopher's room right there where you see the set of three windows." "This house and the Moores' house-- I would say, the majority of the past 17 years, they appear to have been empty." "You could have people-- they're gonna go, "oh, the house is cursed,"" "or "that's where the little boy lived that the devil worshippers killed."" "The people that bought into the propaganda that the west Memphis police department and the media put forth-- devil worshippers-- because of some graffiti around." "They got on that bandwagon and everybody jumped onboard." "And it was hysteria." "People wouldn't let their children out." "You jumped on that bandwagon, too." "Oh, I led the bandwagon." ""Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death," "I shall fear no evil."" "And I'm not scared of the devil." "I know who my comforter is." "These three animals worshipping the devil made a sacrifice of three babies to Satan, to think that it would empower them to fly, walk through walls." "You know, what insanity." "We did a little graffiti, like spray-paint on underpasses," "but there was nothing satanic, anything like that." "It was just like our names, our favorite bands, things like that." "And they seem to place some big importance on it or something." "Some experts have said that the main three driving forces of Satan worship among teenagers is sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll." "And that's probably true." "When you're talking about rock 'n' roll, you're probably talking about the heavy metal groups." "Most people don't understand the situation as it was then." "The area had had a rumored history" "of devil worshipping and that type of thing." "That was something that people were saying around the country at this time." "In Damien's case, it was the kids that came in and said that they saw him eating the hindquarter of a dog." "But the rumors were rampant." "The police department asked me to come up with a list of people that we had had dealings with in the juvenile department" "that-- that might have had something to do with this." "Damien's name was mentioned very early on by a lot of people." "He-- he-- he does act strange." "He wears the black clothing, which creates attention to him." "We were totally unaware that there was a satanic cult in west Memphis," "that there were Satan worshippers in west Memphis." "I didn't hear anything about this until my child was sacrificed to Satan." "Then I heard about it." "Why is it that I didn't know this before?" "I'm all for burning them at the stake just like they did in Salem." "I don't have a problem with it." "After what they have done to us, that still would not be good enough." "Good evening." "I'm Diana Davis." "And I'm Tony Brooks." "In a statement given to the police, 17-year-old jessie misskelley allegedly confesses to watching two other suspects choke, rape, and sexually mutilate three west Memphis second-graders." "Misskelley told police he watched" "18-year-old Damien echols and 16-year-old Jason Baldwin brutalize the children as part of a cult ritual." "Can you just say again how strong you feel this case is?" "Someone asked me on a scale from one to 10." "And I told them, "11." So that's how strong it is." "Graphic details have already been printed in today's "commercial appeal." Jessie misskelley Jr., is one of three of the murder suspects." "I don't believe it." "He's not that type of boy." "Misskelley, sr., disputes a confession allegedly made by his son and quoted in today's newspaper." "The paper doesn't mention how it obtained young misskelley's statement." "An unidentified woman called action news 5 last Friday offering to sell us the transcript for several hundred dollars." "We declined because we do not pay for news stories." "The misskelley confession got leaked to the press." " You didn't leak it, did you?" " No." "And was that an item of concern to you at the time?" "Not really." "Echols, Baldwin, and misskelley plead not guilty to three counts each of capital murder." "Misskelley will be the first of three defendants tried for the murders of three west Memphis boys earlier this year." "The judge sets one trial date for late February and rules echols and Baldwin will be tried together." "Can you describe for me what the press coverage was like?" "Oh, it was anything you would see today dealing with a major celebrity." "I mean, it-- look at the Michael Jackson coverage." "That's the kind of coverage we were getting." "And that sort of coverage was at the time of the murders," " but also continuing through the trials?" " Yes." "Reporters have written thousands of stories about these two trials." "On k.A.I.T. Alone, our viewers have seen more than 130 stories about the three defendants." "The attorneys will be looking for jurors who can put aside the things they've heard in the media and make a decision based on the facts as they are presented in the trial." "This case poses a difficult balancing act:" "On one side-- the defendant's right to a fair trial;" "the other side-- the public's right to know." "I do recall being asked a specific question by the media once of how I felt this case was between a one and a 10, and I made a dumb remark of "11."" "And you've got to keep in mind the atmosphere at that time." "We were 30 days into the case when an arrest was made." "There was a lot of burden taken off of everyone that was involved in that case." "We felt like we had a very solid case." "If you had it to do all over again, would you have made the comment about 11 on a one-out-of-10 scale?" "I probably would not have." "In six months from now, when the trial's all over," "I'll be with my parents again and my family." "And everything will be happy, the way it was." "But I'm scared about what could happen if they did find me guilty." "But I know they can't." "But then again, they might." "I just don't like to think about that." "The day he got arrested, no one called me." "And I got home and there were police going all through my house." "And I kept asking where my son was." "They gave me that testimony of jessie's that said that it happened during the day and that Jason had skipped school." "I had proof that Jason was in school and that it was a lie." "But that didn't matter to gitchell." "They already had him in the courtroom before I could get up there with his school records." "And I had to fight my way through a crowd." "Ma'am, what do you think about the reports this morning of your son's involvement in this thing?" "He didn't have anything to do with it." " Was he at school?" "He was at school." " The whole day?" " The whole day." " He was not there." " And I was in shock-- total shock." "I first met Jason the morning of his very first appearance at the west Memphis municipal court." "My impressions of Jason are that he appeared very shy and very timid." "He does not appear to be an angry young man." "He does not appear to be a violent young man." "He does not appear to be a man who is capable of a heinous act for which he's charged." "How did you guys meet?" " At school." " Yeah, I think so." "In a study hall." "I had, like, a book bag full of tapes." "I used to try to steal them." "We did about everything together before we got arrested, used to go to places on the weekends." "To malls." "My client Jason Baldwin was essentially investigated mainly on the basis that he hung out around Damien echols and was known to be a good friend of his." "Jason was Damien's constant shadow." "Wherever Damien went, Jason went." "Guilt by association." "It's a scary thing to be accused of something because of your friends." "Why everybody thought it was Jason was because he hung out with Damien." "And why did everybody think it was Damien?" "'Cause he was the-- he was the guy who had the weird suit." "My son wore black." "They weren't prosecuted because they-- they wore black t-shirts or liked heavy metal music." "Can you talk a little bit about, you know, that day when they brought you in for-- you know, for questioning, and then, you know, later on everybody was arrested?" "Can you talk to us what it was like?" "They just asked me who did it." "And I didn't know who did it, you know." "They kept-- the police kept on asking me who did it and I told them I didn't know, which I didn't know." "You know, I told-- I told the police where I was at that day." "I was in dyess, Arkansas, wrestling, which I was." "I don't like people to keep on asking me questions and I done told them once." "You know, I don't like people asking me and asking me and asking me." "You know, I'm gonna tell you one time." "And, you know, if you just egg it on, then I'm gonna just say something just to leave me alone." "You know, and that's what I did." "And, you know, I just-- they just egged it on." "And finally I just told the cops," ""look, you know, all right, I did it, you know." "I killed them and everything."" "Hello." "Operator." "I have a collect call." "Your name, please?" " Jessie." " Will you pay?" " Yes, ma'am." " Thank you." " Hey, son." " Hey." "How are you doing?" "That's good." "Oh, hell, yes." "It snowed like hell up here." "Got about 3 inches of snow out here on the ground now." "Yeah?" "It didn't?" "Well, it is here, I guarantee you." "Go ahead." "You know, I talk to my dad every Friday." "I call him every Friday." ""I want you to come home, son."" "You know, he tells me that all the time." "He tells me he loves me." "Of course I know that." "You know, I love him." "I love him to death, you know." "I'm trying to get home to be with him." "So do you ever think about that-- that happened, the way the police treated you up here in that questioning?" "Yeah, I know." "Mike Allen asked my dad, could he talk to me?" "And my dad said, "well, sure, you can talk to him."" "So I got in the cop car with him and we rode to west Memphis." "Mike Allen asked me, wouldn't it be nice if I knew who done it?" "That way I could buy my dad a truck." "'Cause at the time, I think, the reward was like $30,000." "I said yes, I could use that-- you know, that money-- the reward money, but I-- you know, but I didn't know who done it, though." "Our intentions for wanting to talk to jessie misskelley were for the purpose of giving us some names" "of individuals that he may know firsthand of or ever heard of who were involved in the cult activity or satanism." "In the course of what was a very long day of interviewing, jessie misskelley goes from being a source of information to being a suspect who has, according to the tape-recorded statements, confessed to involvement in this crime." "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this statement that Mr. misskelley gave to the west Memphis police department is a false story." "No one in 1993 understood the phenomenon of false confessions." "We now know we're not gonna let the police take a kid off the street, interrogate him for 12 hours, and yet only have 41 minutes of audiotape to support this so-called confession." "Well, in a year from now, hopefully I can be out and be with my family." "I'll hopefully be married to susie." "Hopefully I'll have a kid." "You know, I love kids a lot." "I think I'll have some." "Jessie is mildly retarded." "It's much easier to get a confession out of someone who is 17 and operating at maybe a five- or six-year-old level of intellectual functioning" "than it is someone who graduated from Harvard." "The police, you know-- they questioned me for, like, 11 or 12 hours." "And finally I just got tired, you know?" "My mind was, you know, draining me out." "You know what I'm saying?" "I couldn't" " I couldn't focus no more." "My body was draining." "I wanted to go home and be with my dad." "You can tell the difference between a real, bona fide, valuable confession and a false confession by looking at" "how well do the things the suspect tells you stack up with the objective facts of the crime?" "And what jessie misskelley talked about doesn't stack up to what the evidence shows." "With, you know, persistent police follow-up questioning, he keeps moving the time of the offenses later and later in the day until finally, with leading questions, the police get them-- get jessie to place the time of the crimes" "after the time the kids disappeared." "It was my voice that you heard." "I was saying what the police wanted me to say." "Everything that I said really came from the police like, "well, you told me earlier something about this and this and that."" "That's when I said, "okay."" "That's when I repeated what they said." "A lot of good cops are gonna press hard to try to get an answer to who's responsible for a terrible crime." "So, certainly, you know, pushing hard-- there's nothing wrong with pushing hard." "It's having your end in mind so fixed and you're so determined to ensure that a particular person be held responsible for a crime, that you lose sight of" "of, you know, how coercive your tactics are." "That's where you-- you step over the line." "And I think it's clear they overreached with jessie misskelley." "The presence of false confessions and how frequently they play a key role in securing convictions for the prosecution-- it's been very well-documented now." "And that's what happened in this case." "And it continues to happen all over the country, and it's gone on for decades." "But it's only now that people are beginning to really, you know, understand the scope of that problem." "I said what the police wanted me to say." "That's the reason why I said that." "Was it true?" "No, it was not true." "Did I run anybody down?" "No, I did not." "I didn't kill nobody." "I have nothing to hide." "I have nothing to be ashamed of." "All right, your verdicts are in good form and read as follows:" ""We the jury, having found jessie Lloyd misskelley Jr., guilty of first-degree murder in the death of Michael Moore, fix his sentence at a term of life" "in the Arkansas department of corrections." "Count two-- we the jury, having found jessie Lloyd misskelley guilty of second-degree murder in the death of Steven branch, fix his sentence at a term of 20 years in the Arkansas department of corrections." "Count three-- we the jury, having found jessie Lloyd misskelley Jr., guilty of second-degree murder in the death of Christopher byers, fix his sentence at a term of 20 years in the Arkansas department of corrections."" "Is this your unanimous verdict, ladies and gentlemen?" " Yes." " All right, you will receive a life sentence plus 40 years." "And that will be the judgment of the court." "Prison's not a safe place, jessie, sweetie." "I'm gonna mail him a skirt." "One down, two to go." "Hopefully the same thing will happen to the next two and we'll get the same verdict." "All right, gentlemen, if you'd have your clients stand, please." "Mr. Baldwin and Mr. echols, if you'd stand." "In your case, Mr. Baldwin, you'll be adjudicated guilty of three counts of capital murder." "You'll be sentenced to the Arkansas department of corrections" "to a term of life without possibility of parole on each of the three counts." "Damien echols shall be sentenced to death by lethal injection." "You'll be administered a continuous intravenous injection of a lethal quantity of an ultra short-acting barbiturate" "in combination with a chemical paralytic agent" " into your body until you are dead." "It's my obligation to let you know you do have a right to appeal, and you need to consider that with your attorneys." "He'll be in your custody, Mr. sheriff, for immediate transportation to the department of corrections to carry out the orders of this court." "Questions about whether justice was served has loomed in this case since the verdicts." "The hbo documentary "paradise lost"" "gave the case worldwide attention." "Since the films, thousands are questioning the convictions." "16 years ago, I believe," "I saw the documentary "paradise lost."" "It was on hbo." "I got involved in the case thinking that there was maybe some way I could make a difference." "Is there something about the way" "Damien echols was treated as a teenager that you can relate to?" "I can remember being kind of looked upon as a freak or, you know, different, because I didn't dress like everybody else." "So I can empathize with being judged by how you look as opposed to who you are." " I'd like to say something, if you don't mind." "Sure." "I would love to sit down with some people that I have heard make statements, that are in the public eye, and actually talk to them and say," ""this is what really happened that was not shown on the documentary."" "And I think they'd have a whole different understanding." " But all that evidence has been made public." " Yes, it has." "It may not have shown up in the documentaries or in a particular news report" "or a speech by someone, but it is public record." "Most anyone can make the proper contacts and view that-- that information." "My understanding is that any citizen of the United States can come down and sit in the west Memphis police department" "and look through most of that evidence." "Am I correct?" "That's what I understand." "So there's not a secret bag or pocket of information that the west Memphis police department" "or the prosecutors have that convinces them that the west Memphis three are guilty," "but that the rest of the public can't know." "Right, there's no-- there's no secret in there whatsoever." "It's just-- as I mentioned before, it's the perception people received from the media and hbo." "I saw the movie." "I got an advance screener because I work for an advertising agency." "We saw the film together, Kathy and I, and we immediately saw it and said, "oh, gosh, burk would probably like this."" "Actually not like it, but-- he called us up and he says, "these guys are innocent."" "We start contacting the lawyers, 'cause you just want to know more." "And we're shocked to find out that nothing was getting done, they were just languishing there." "It was horrible." "And so we were like, "well, what can we do?" "We work in the entertainment industry." "We can design things."" "And then you say, "well, what can you do with that?"" "We're like, "we can make a website."" "Echols has his backers." "A website is now online to raise money for the three men convicted of killing the west Memphis eight-year-olds." "We're not experts ourselves, but we've hired experts to look into the case for us because there was just so much doubt." "One of the saddest things that I can remember about this whole thing and about our trips out here" "is I remember being in a rental car like this, heading out to the prison." "And I remember saying, "can you believe that these guys have been locked up in prison for three whole years?"" "And here we are, 17 years later, heading to pine bluff to visit our friends again in 2011." "All right." "Here we are." "I don't like being here again, but it's good to see these guys." " Whenever you're ready." " Just thank everybody." "This will be short." "There's not like an "action" or nothing?" " Action." " Go." "Hi." "My name is-- hi." "My name is Jason Baldwin." "And I want to thank all of the supporters, all of the people out there who have written me over the years, who've researched the case," "did their-- you know, whatever it is in your means-- that did your best, you know, to let me, Damien and jessie and our families know that, you know, what's happened to us" "will not be forgotten and it'll be made right." "America's supposed to be based on" ""innocent until proven guilty,"" "but in this case, it's the other way around-- you're guilty until proven innocent." "I never would have dreamed that anything like this could have happened to me." "Now live from the mid-South news leader..." "Convicted west Memphis child murderer Damien echols gives an exclusive interview to action news 5." "I think if it was-- if they were capable, the public would probably form a lynch mob and come get me." "Damien echols says he was railroaded by the police, prosecutors, and the judge." "Mr. echols, you are remanded to the custody..." "It's been painful for the mother and stepfather of Stevie branch to watch Damien echols." "They'd prefer he get no attention." "I'm glad he's in pain and miserable and all that." "I'm glad he's just so messed up and-- and I would like to see prison kill him." "I was a step-parent back in 1993 when this happened." "I was a good step-parent." "And to watch it all go away on account of this, you lose your life to a degree." "You can say I sort of like died myself because I shut out humanity." "Steve's death was so difficult for Pam to accept that other problems resulted." "She separated from her husband and moved here to her parents' home in blytheville." "A crime of this nature will take a toll on anybody." "And I have seen this happen to our home." "Tomorrow, 19-year-old Damien echols's attorneys will file with the court the transcripts from echols's trial-- more than 4,000 pages of testimony." "That will set in motion the appeals process that echols believes will lead" "to the overturning of his conviction and sentence." "Convicted murderer Damien echols appeared in craighead county court" "for the latest hearing since his 1994 conviction." "Dan stidham, who represented jessie misskelley in the original trial, says many questions remain unanswered." "I firmly believe that this is a miscarriage of justice and we're gonna keep going and keep going, doesn't matter how many years it takes." "It was also an emotional day, especially for the victims' families." "Damien's not going anywhere." "Justice prevailed the first time." "I have all the faith in the world that justice will prevail again" "and someday I'll get to watch Damien echols die." "But they're not the only ones who want justice to prevail." "Anybody with a set of eyes can see that these boys are innocent." "They did not do it." "And if she wants justice done, she needs to be trying to get this case reopened" "and find the real murderers of those three children." "Every appeal that has come up has caused grief and caused problems in the home." "It brings back anger still today to see their pictures or faces on the media." "Reliving it is a nightmare at times." "Damien echols still walks, even though four years ago he was sentenced to die." "Are you hoping this works?" "Yeah, but I don't think it will." " Why don't you think it will work?" " Same judge." "His appeals have been denied time and time and time again." "Now today defense attorneys did make a request that judge David Burnett be recused from hearing these cases." "But that motion was quickly denied by the judge." "The Arkansas supreme court has denied every appeal by Damien echols, and defense is counting on d.N.A. Testing to shed new light on the case." "This case was solved in 1994." "And one day in Arkansas they're going to inject Damien echols, and he will pay with his life for what he has done to three little eight-year-old boys." "A forensic pathologist, a bite mark expert, a criminal profiler," "even a human blood and body fluid stain specialist brought their expertise here to the law school" "at the university of Arkansas in little rock in hopes of proving why the defense team for convicted killer Damien echols says he is innocent." "Good morning, ladies and gentlemen." "My name is Dennis riordan." "We represent petitioner Damien echols in the eastern district of Arkansas here in little rock, arising out of the 1994 trial-- trials really" "of three teenagers who were tried and convicted for the murders of three eight-year-old boys." "And we are here today to discuss the evidence that establishes that no reasonable juror would convict Damien echols essentially knowing what we know today." "The heart of this presentation is four experts who we will be calling today, who provided the core" "of the new evidence before the district court." "Werner spitz, probably the country's leading forensic pathologist," "certainly the author of the Bible of forensic pathology;" "Richard souviron, renowned forensic odontologist who was the key witness for the prosecution in convicting Ted Bundy;" "tom fedor, who is a d.N.A. Expert to discuss the new d.N.A. Evidence;" "and John Douglas, who headed the criminal analysis unit of the f.B.I. For 25 years." "But what is the new evidence that proves not merely that this was an unfair trial, but that innocent men were convicted?" "And with that, I'll turn to my partner don horgan." "Good morning." "I'm gonna take a minute or two here just to review some of the d.N.A. Evidence that has recently surfaced in the case." "First with a little background-- in 2001, Arkansas, like a lot of other states, passed a statute that allows convicted criminal defendants" "to challenge their convictions with new d.N.A. Evidence that shows them to be actually innocent." "Under that state statute, relevant items from the crime scene in this case" "were tested at the laboratory chosen by the prosecution, and that's bode laboratories in Virginia." "In late 2005, bode issued its first report showing d.N.A. Profiles of genetic material found on the victims and on other pieces of evidence from the crime scene." "In the end, none of the bode reports could link any of the d.N.A. Provided by the defendants to the victims or to the crime scene." "New evidence has emerged in west Memphis, Arkansas." "New evidence released today claims testing unavailable in 1993" "shows no d.N.A. From the three imprisoned defendants was found on the bodies of the murdered boys." "For 14 years, John mark byers was convinced he knew who tied up and killed" "his eight-year-old son and two other cub scouts in a brutal mutilation murder." "Now byers and the state of Arkansas have been shown new evidence that the father tells a.B.C. News has changed his mind about the guilt" "of the three boys known as the west Memphis three." "I hated you." "I believed with all my heart you killed my son." "And I'm sorry for that." "The question is why am I so different now than years back?" "Uh..." "Coming to deal with things, coming to deal with that I know I did all I could" "to keep Christopher safe, that it wasn't my fault." "No, I wasn't a perfect dad, but I" " I did the best I could." "I'm just a country boy from marked tree." "That you kill my son, you made me madder than hell and I wanted to kick somebody's ass." "Damien echols quit talking to reporters after getting warnings from his attorneys." "Last week, echols said mark byers committed the murders." "Does it come as a surprise, mark?" "We don't have any comment." "He's got knowledge about the area." "He knows when the search is over with." "He's big enough that he can carry the boys there and throw them in." "His son was the only one mutilated." "The other two weren't mutilated." "All of the pieces fit together with a person like byers." "After the sentencing, the mother and stepfather of Christopher byers moved out of west Memphis." "Echols claims byers is the real killer." "I think basically in a fit of anger he killed them." "He's got to be the biggest pathological liar." "I hope he rots and burns in hell for eternity." "I hate his guts more than anything on the face of the earth." "Mark and Melissa byers moved to cherokee village to get away from the memories of their son's murder in west Memphis." "But the trouble followed them." "They're accused of taking" "$20,000 worth of property from a neighbor's house." "But that's only the beginning of their legal problems." "According to court documents, mark byers was with a juvenile" "who allegedly assaulted another young man." "Byers says he let the boys fight in his presence because he wanted to make sure it was a fair fight." "All I could think about is thinking about my son getting beat to death." "Byers stood by watching the fight holding a gun." "Now a few of the byers' neighbors say they now have questions about mark byers and the west Memphis murders." "These are for you, Melissa." "Byers's wife did die recently." "An autopsy showed small amounts of drugs in her body, but nothing that should have caused her death." "So that death remains a mystery." "I made a good scapegoat." "I made a good target." "But I didn't care." "You know, there was no one left but me." " Burn, you son of a bitch, burn." " And I really didn't care." " Burn." "Go to hell." "Burn." " I mean, deep down inside" " I knew I didn't kill anybody." " I'll stomp on your grave." " I felt like the state had..." " I'll stomp on your grave." "...who they're supposed to have." "Burn and go to hell!" "But what's right and what's wrong are two different things." "And the right thing is that these three men are innocent." "That's the right thing." "And, yes, it was hard for me to stand up and admit that I was wrong, but wrong is wrong." "This is a letter from Damien echols, varner unit, p.O. Box 400, grady, Arkansas." ""Dear John, first I want to start off by apologizing to you." "I know how it feels to be accused of something you didn't do." "Now, all these years later," "I see just how wrong I was and I'm sorry." "I did the same thing to you that everyone else did to me." "The second thing I want to say is thank you." "I know it can't have been easy to put aside all of your emotions and look at the evidence with cold, hard logic, but you did." "I can't help but believe there's a reason for all of this for both of us." "Take care and know that my thoughts are with you." "Damien echols."" "Hi." "How are you doing?" "I'm doing good." "Glad you came back." "How long has it been since the last time you where here?" "We were talking about that in the car." " 10 years." " 10 years." "It's been a long time." "Time is very, very strange in here." "I'm" "I'm surprised by things sometimes, I guess." "Like being told that I have arthritis or looking in the mirror and realizing my hairline is receding, that my hair is getting thin." "And it's hard to accept that because in a way my life just sort of stopped abruptly whenever I came here." "December the 11th it will be my 35th birthday." "It will be the 17th birthday that I've spent in this prison." "I have a son who is now almost the same age I was whenever I was locked up." "We were absolutely poverty-stricken white trash." "I really do believe these people would have gotten away with murdering me" "if it would not have been for what you guys did, for being there in the very beginning and getting this whole thing on tape" "so that the rest of the world sees what was happening." "If not for that, these people would have murdered me, swept this under the rug," "and I wouldn't be anything but a memory right now." "A growing number of people are now standing behind the west Memphis three saying the men convicted of murder are innocent:" "From Johnny depp to the Dixie chicks, even a New York architect who quit her job, moved to little rock," "and married death row inmate Damien echols." "I've been working on this case-- actually I've been involved and known Damien for nine years." "But I've been really actively working on the case for about seven." "I am in love and very loved by a woman-- lorri, who lived in Brooklyn, New York, at the time that "paradise lost" came out." "And it had a very powerful impact on her." "I had to sort of think about things overnight." "And I woke up the next morning just knowing those kids-- they didn't do it." "And then trying to-- it just plagued me." "She couldn't stop thinking about it, so she started to write to me and I responded to the letters." "In the course of writing to Damien, I think we-- that's when we fell in love with each other." "It was-- because initially, I think, we-- we-- we fell in love with each other's minds." "Because he didn't even know what I looked like or, you know-- it was just really-- it was just what we were thinking," "and later on, of course, when we talked to each other." "So that was-- it was already a done deal by the time I got to Arkansas or went to visit him in Arkansas." "And then I stayed in New York for another, I think, year and a half after I met him before I made the decision to move." "She lives now here in little rock, 45 minutes away from the prison, just so that she can come here more often." "And now we are set to be married" "November the 1st." "And that'll be a Buddhist wedding ceremony on November the 1st." "Oh, I think we're gonna get him out." "I think it's going to" "I think things are happening much quicker, but I think we're gonna get him out." "Inasmuch as the state has the burden..." "Of proof in this case and inasmuch as" "for a good portion of the case is circumstantial, it is necessary and appropriate that the state prove motive if it can." "Call your next witness." "I call Dale griffis." "In looking at young people involved in the occult, do you see any particular type of dress?" "I have personally observed people wearing black fingernails, having their hair painted black, wearing black t-shirts." "Does the number three-- three victims-- have any significance?" "One of the most powerful numbers in-- in the practice of satanic belief was 666." "And some believe the base root of six is three." "The whole idea of this being a satanic ritual was a key element of the state's case at the trial, because they called Dale griffis," "who had almost no qualifications whatsoever." "But nonetheless he maintained that all those blank spaces, you know, that attached to the crime scene" "were themselves evidence of a satanic connection." "Every one of these files is jam-packed full of cases or data on particular groups and so forth-- the things that I could use" "to educate other peop-- you know, therapists and educators and policemen." "It was in the start of my career into occultism-- about 1985, I believe." "And there was an explosion of cases." "Tonight, the startling, sobering results of a "20/20" investigation:" "Satanism, devil worship is being practiced all across the country." "We have all types of perversion going on, and it's affecting America." "Perverse, hideous acts that defy belief." "All of them were investigated by police, but usually without much result." "Between 1982 and 1984, when you became a ph.D., what classes did you take?" " None." " None." "Judge, I'd just like to make an argument at this point on behalf of my client." "It's our position that, based on a mail-order ph.D." "In which a person doesn't have to take classes, doesn't have to take any resident courses from a non-accredited school, does not qualify him as an expert in Arkansas." "And we object to the court qualifying Dr. griffis as an expert." "I'm not sure in Arkansas or any other state that you have to have any kind of degree to be an expert in a particular field." " That's true-- - if you can demonstrate knowledge, education, experience, and training in the field, you could have a third-grade education," "if you have other education, experience, and training that qualifies you as an expert." "So I'm not persuaded at all about your argument about a mail-order ph.D." "So is there anything else?" "In the early 1970s and '80s, we began to see at the f.B.I. Academy" "police officers coming in from around the world, and the cops were kind of throwing around words like "ritual"" "and using it interchangeably with satanic crimes." "We did a close evaluation and we didn't see one." "We didn't-- we didn't see one case." "If you can paint these guys as involved in satanism, anything is possible." "And the apparent castration of Christopher byers fit into the satanic theory for griffis as well." "They used knives to cut up the three boys that were killed, the eight-year-old boys." "Do the types of injuries have significance?" "The removal of sex-- sex organs-- in some books on occultism, they will talk about removing of the testicles for the semen." "A lot of the early understandings of this case were really premised on a misunderstanding of what was there." "And the information, by and large, was there to be seen and interpreted." "It just wasn't looked at by the right people and it wasn't interpreted correctly." "State's exhibit 68a is a photograph of an abrasion that's patterned" "and has, like, a serrated appearance to it." "And that's 68a." "Have you had a chance to look at that knife and examine that knife, sir?" "Yes." "You referred in your testimony to wound patterns on the three victims that were serrated in nature." "That's correct." "Okay." "Did you find wound patterns on the three victims that would be consistent with having been caused by a knife with that kind of serrated pattern?" "There are injuries consistent with this type of serrated pattern." "As some of you know, a critical prosecution theory at the 1994 trials" "was that the defendants used a survival knife to inflict most of the injuries on these victims and that they used the knife before the children died." "Is it a coincidence this knife is found behind-- in the lake, hidden, behind Jason Baldwin's house?" "The knife was critical because if it looked like one that Damien echols had once owned" "and if the injuries to these kids were caused by a knife, it tied Damien echols to-- to the crime itself." "So it was a key link if it was to be believed that it had been involved in mutilating these kids and had been used in, you know, probably castrating Christopher byers." "But now we know that's just not the case." "Good morning." "I analyzed a lot of pictures." "I analyzed a lot of written material." "It is my opinion-- or the following are my opinions:" "Injuries on the body surface of all the three victims, three boys, including the emasculation of Chris byers, were produced by animals after death." "When a dog or other carnivorous animal attacks a body after death, or before death sometimes, they scrape the body." "They move their claws on the body and try to bring the body closer to them." "They do this several times." "And you have here two of the victims that have the same identical injury." "They were obvious claw marks." "The spacing and the configuration of those injuries is not compatible with a serrated knife such as this or, for that matter, any knife." "Over a period of time, our understanding of what actually happened has changed." "What we know now is that the lawyers on the case hadn't gone to the crime laboratory and looked meticulously through all of the laboratory's notebooks of what was done out at the crime scene." "The crime scene techs recovered a bunch of animal hair." "There's no possible way this could have been done with this knife." "Animals do this." "This is what happens to a body that's dumped in a wooded area, in the woods, in a creek, in a swamp." "This is what you're going to get." "Dog, coyote, fox, possum" "I've seen all of those." "It's a carnivore." "Could it be turtles that had done this, aquatic crabs, for instance?" "Sure." "Anything that would eat flesh is what did this." "Can you talk about the original case," "I mean, just in general terms?" "I mean do you think it was a solid case?" "Do you think it was a case" " I mean, do you think Damien got a fair trial?" "Oh, I don't-- in my mind, there's no question that all three received a fair trial." "The jury heard the evidence and were convinced of guilt." "So that speaks for itself, I think." "A jury takes an oath to base their verdicts only on the evidence that comes before 'em." "And they're not to consider anything other than the evidence that comes from the witness stand," "the exhibits that are introduced in the evidence." "And if they violate that oath, it's a very, very serious matter." "Lorri Davis, wife of Damien echols, spoke for the first time about a new defense allegation of jury misconduct in the trial of the west Memphis three." "Davis says the jury foreman contacted an attorney during the trial 15 years ago." "We know from a lawyer who has now submitted some paperwork to the court who talked to that jury foreman and who became aware that the jury foreman was considering some information that the jury foreman shouldn't have been considering." "Anytime you're caught in a situation where you know something that calls into question a judgment that's been made by a court," "when you're sitting at home in your easy chair and you read an article about somebody's facing the death penalty" "and you feel like there's something you might, could have done, it's-- it's troubling." "You know, I'm getting dangerously close to the whole issue about what happened in the jury room." "As an officer of the court, I'm not permitted to talk about certain things with regard to this case." "I had started working for Lloyd warford at that point in time as a law clerk." "I met the jury foreman Kent Arnold." "The first time" "I encountered Kent at Lloyd's office was when he hired Lloyd to represent his brother on a different case." "But at that time, Kent already knew he was being called for jury duty for Baldwin and echols trial." "During misskelley's trial, he talked about all of the things that had been printed in the newspaper." "Kent Arnold was passionate about what he thought he knew." "He-- he believed that they were guilty and they had been caught and they should be convicted." "I was sitting in Lloyd's office and he was talking to Kent on speakerphone." "And he was saying, "well, I've gotten my jury summons." "How do I make sure I get on this jury?"" "And Lloyd was going, "you know, you've got some pretty strong ideas about whether these guys are guilty or not." "You know, you'll never get on the jury." "Don't worry about it."" "After Kent was on the jury, Lloyd specifically said," ""how did you get on this jury?"" "And he basically said, "dumb judges and dumb lawyers-- they don't ask specific questions."" "During the trial, Kent was still calling Lloyd on a regular basis about what was going on." "He really wanted Lloyd to tell him things about how to get this jury to convict these boys." "And Lloyd would just kind of brush him off and say," ""oh, you know, that's not something I can talk to you about."" "He also asked Lloyd specifically on that phone call, when were they gonna play the confession?" "Mr. Arnold would be saying stuff like-- one particular phone call-- "the state hasn't proven their case." "They're supposed to rest tomorrow." "If anybody's gonna be able to get these boys convicted, it's gonna have to be me in that jury room."" "The next thing we know, he's foreman of the jury." "He's foreman of the jury, which is exactly where he wanted to be, because he wanted these boys convicted." "Kent Arnold believed that what he knew was the truth and that it was gonna be up to him to make sure his idea of justice happened." "He had to introduce the confession to the jury room." "He had already basically told us he was going to." "In the last couple of years, quite fortuitously-- and this is the sort of fortune that can save a man's life" "we have found that the jury put up big sheets of factors that they considered in convicting echols and Baldwin." "And they've been kept in evidence." "And here the echols' one is." "No one has really asked what that might be." "Why was it crossed out?" "Who crossed it out?" "One of the jurors had copied a facsimile of that list into her notebook." "The crossed-out item is the jessie misskelley testimony." "What we now know is that in fact jessie misskelley's statements played a pretty major part in the way that the jury in the echols and Baldwin case came to understand the case and came to have confidence in the notion" "that they should convict, which is wrong." "I'd like to show you something." "Approximately a year before the echols case," "I lectured in little rock, Arkansas." "One of the people who attended that course" "I believe his name was Jerry driver-- had contacted me about kids that were active in the west Memphis area." "So the year prior," "I started seeing some of the materials." "These were drawings from the area." "That's how it came to me." "And..." "You could see..." "Here death symbols and use of a" "what was called a ceremonial sword or an athame." "And all of a sudden you start to see symbols, this symbology often used as a satanic symbol." "A year ahead of time, they knew they had a problem in the area." "They knew that it was getting worse." "You had some good police officers down there concerned what the heck next is going to happen." "Anything wrong with wearing black in and of itself?" "No." "Anything wrong with the heavy metal stuff in and of itself?" "No." "But when you look at it together and you begin to see inside Damien echols, you see inside that person, and there's not a soul in there." "When I was that age-- I was a kid basically-- in court, hearing the things that people were saying," "I don't think I registered the full importance of what was going on then," "because I always felt-- I knew I didn't do it." "So therefore it's impossible for them to prove you've done something you haven't done with no evidence, nothing but a bunch of rumors and ghost stories and smoke screens." "I didn't think there was any way in hell they were gonna be able to get away with that." "We're heading to grady, Arkansas, where the varner unit is." "It's Damien's birthday today, yeah." "Time has been an odd thing in this situation, because it seems like it just drags on forever" "and then, when you think back on it, it's been fleeting." "In the past 17 years," "I've made friends that have stuck with me through thick and thin, that have been here" "beyond what even my blood family members have been with me beyond." "I met lorri." "We've been together for about 14 years now." "We just had our 10th wedding anniversary last week." "I'm sure it's different from everyone else's marriage." "But then I don't know what everyone else's marriage is." "I just know that ours is a good one." "In the very beginning, I would wake up in the middle of the night sometimes, cursing her, literally cursing her out loud" "for making me feel the way she made me feel, especially in here, you know." "It's one of those things that whenever you really, really love somebody," "it's not all, you know, flowers and poetry, like the songs try to make you think." "It hurts." "It gets its claws into you and it just rips." "And I felt like that was the last thing" "I needed to be dealing with on top of trying to deal with all of this." "But it turned out to be the absolute best thing that has ever happened to me in my life." "What kind of person would come from across the country to a death row inmate and marry this man?" "This is a known convicted child killer right here." "He killed three little eight-year-old boys in west Memphis, Arkansas, in 1993." "What kind of mind does this young lady have" "who would come down here and marry somebody like that?" "This whole thing has gone from what happened to three little boys to more like a circus of some kind." "Our investigators were obtaining d.N.A. Samples in the form of hairs, cigarette butts, oral swabs from people who had some connection to the events." "These included samples from several people, including Steven branch's stepfather Terry hobbs." "We gave all these samples to Thomas fedor, who's here today." "He's an independent forensic serologist." "The result of that analysis in may 2007 showed that a hair from a ligature used to tie up Michael Moore could be associated with Terry hobbs." "The biggest bombshell of the new defense investigation is that an unexplained hair that could be from another victim's stepfather was found on shoelaces at the crime scene." "Over the last three weeks or four weeks, a group of people from here in Arkansas have formed a campaign called "Arkansas take action."" "We're on our way to the state capitol for a rally." "There's been such an outpouring of support for a decade, supporting the west Memphis three." "But Arkansas has been relatively quiet." "We hope that with our grassroots movement" ""Arkansas take action,"" "that arkansans from across the state will speak out, asking our elected officials to take a look at this new evidence and to get these guys out of prison." "None of the d.N.A. From any of the crime scene evidence could be associated with Mr. echols or Mr. Baldwin or Mr. misskelley." "Terry hobbs could be the source of that hair on the ligature." "Approximately 1 1/2% of the population at large could be the source of that hair." "None of the defendants could be the source of that hair on the ligature." "Take a look at just how much support they have-- thousands of postcards," "some as far away as Los Angeles, California, and Europe, all supporting the west Memphis three." "Did you murder the little boys?" "Well, I'd have to laugh at that and say there's something wrong with someone who would think that." "That stepfather denies having anything to do with the murders." "And the Arkansas attorney general's office said in the statement it will review and respond, but warns "the legal process could take months and possibly years."" "Do you feel that you're as close as ever to actually getting a new trial?" "We get closer every day." "Yeah, so with the work that we're doing and the evidence that we're finally uncovering," "I think we're getting closer all the time." "It's sad to see that there's people out here trying to get some killers out of prison" "that deserve, every one, to be hung by a rope." "I just wanted to say thanks for being here today, and I think it's important for all elected officials to know that we are watching them." "It's not about opinion anymore." "It's not about debate." "It's about science." "And I urge you all to go to wm3.Org and donate to the defense fund." "The donations is what has paid for the forensic tests and the d.N.A. Testing that's going to set these men free." "I just want to say I'm honored to be here." "Lorri's a wonderful, wonderful person." "And she's what has kept this going for 14 years and made people not forget about the west Memphis three." "So thank you very much." "Well, Kelly's court is back in session." "On the docket today-- meet Terry hobbs." "This man sued the Dixie chicks for defamation." "Why?" "Natalie maines has been very vocal about this case, saying that new d.N.A. Testing would prove" "hobbs was involved in his own stepson's death." "Raise your right hand." "Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth," " and nothing but the truth, so help you God?" " I do." "Mr. hobbs, could you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury why you sued my client?" "For her statements against me that she made on the Internet." "What do you hope to get out of the lawsuit?" "Justice." " How do you define justice?" " In a court of law." " You want money, don't you?" " I don't want" "I want justice as the courts deem." "An apology?" "Is that enough?" "Whatever the courts decide." "No, I'm not asking what-- I'm asking what you want to get out of this lawsuit, Mr. hobbs." "If I would sit here, to be honest-- that's what I want." "I want you to be totally honest." "I would sit here and say I'd like to see the Dixie chicks humiliated like they have caused me." "I think that's a little bit fair." "Mr. hobbs, I'm gonna have to go into some material now that may be sensitive." "And I want you to know that I'm not trying to make you uncomfortable or embarrass you." "It's just the fact that you've placed your reputation in issue by bringing this lawsuit." "It is your testimony that you are not a violent man." "Correct." " And you do not fly into rages." " Correct." "Pam hobbs says last weekend her husband Terry beat her up at their home in Memphis." "When Pam's father and brother heard she'd been beaten, they went to check on her." "He started telling me it was none of my business, and then naturally I just got more upset and started hitting him." "And I took him to the ground." "And the next thing I know, he shot me." "Terry hobbs faces assault charges and he is now in a Memphis jail." "You did backhand Pam hobbs the night that you ended up shooting her brother, correct?" " Okay." " Is that correct?" "Yeah, all right." " Is that funny?" " Well, it's-- you get tired of talking about it after a while." "Well, she had been provoking me for three days over one simple woman." " She was asking for it?" " You might ask her." "Did you ever vow to get revenge on Pam for kissing another man?" "Never." "Did Pam kiss another man a few weeks before Stevie died?" "I'm not sure when, but something happened." "Tell me what you mean by that." "She was kissing that Mexican in our house." "And that happened a few weeks before Stevie died?" "I'm not sure when." "How would we best determine when that occurred?" "Ask the Mexican." "Let me direct your attention to paragraph 14 of Pam hobbs's declaration." ""Two weeks after Stevie died, Terry left town." "He said I was too much to handle and that he could not stay around me anymore."" " Did I read that correctly?" " You did." "And is that a true paragraph?" "I'm not sure about the time frame, but, yeah, I had to get away." "Are you all gonna be able to get back together or is the marriage over?" "It's-- it's over." "Do you think you'd be still together if Stevie hadn't been murdered?" "Well..." "We had trouble anyway, you know, to be honest with you, before this happened." "And he always told me that he don't get mad;" "He gets even." "You know, that's what he had always said to me." "Pam sure as heck thinks that you did it, doesn't she?" "Thinks who did what?" "She thinks you killed Stevie." "She thinks who killed Stevie?" " You." " No." " She doesn't think that?" " No." " She doesn't think you were involved?" " No." "A sickening feeling, yeah" "I still think, you know, he-- he could have been capable." "You've told many different versions of what you did after dropping Pam hobbs off at work around 5:00 P.M. on may 5th of 1993." "But in all those versions you were always searching for Stevie the whole time." "Correct?" "Correct." "Now David jacoby is saying that you came over to his house at 5:00-something and played guitar for about an hour." "I don't recall that." "You've repeatedly said that you were with mark byers and Dana Moore at 6:00 P.M.," "but Dana Moore and mark byers say you weren't." "You say you were not ever alone on the night of may 5th and the morning of may 6th, and yet David jacoby says you left his house twice alone." "That's correct, isn't it, sir?" "I don't know." "No one can corroborate being with you or your whereabouts for the time period from 6:00 P.M." "To 8:00 or 8:30 P.M. isn't that true, sir?" "So?" "So my point is there's not any witness-- not any of your alibi witnesses can confirm your whereabouts from 6:00 P.M. to 8:30 P.M." " Isn't that true, sir?" " And you're saying what?" "I'm saying that you don't have an alibi witness for two to 2 1/2 hours on the evening of the murders." "I don't know." " Does that concern you?" " No." "Did you see Stevie at all that day, may the 5th?" "No, I did not." "You didn't see Stevie or Michael Moore or Christopher byers at all" " on may 5th of 1993?" " I didn't." "If somebody testifies that they saw you with the boys that night--?" "Do what?" "If somebody testified that they saw you and the boys, would they be lying?" "Mm-hmm, they would be lying." " 'Cause you never found the boys?" " No, I never found them." " Never found them alive?" " Never found them at all." "Okay." "So if someone were to testify that they saw the three little boys standing behind you on the evening of may the 5th..." "Prior to the time that you went to pick up Pam, they'd be mistaken?" "Most definitely." "I can't wait to hear that one." "Steven branch lived three houses down from our house." "And they came through right here." "They zoomed through." "There used to be a bunch of bushes right here, and they all zoomed through and went down the sidewalk." "We came outside to go to church at 6:30." "And I yelled at Christopher to go home, and he said, "I don't have to do what you tell me to do."" "I said, "okay, whatever," you know." "And we got in the car to go to church." "But I saw Terry coming down the sidewalk here, coming this direction." "And he was calling for Steven to come back down to their house." "And we got in the car and left, but they were-- they were together when we went past them." "As we were driving by," "Steven was on his bike riding and Christopher and Michael were running behind him." "They were laughing." "They were having fun like every time I've ever seen them before." "They were just having fun like any other regular day." "And we drove by." "They were-- they were right here near Terry's house." "He was sitting outside, calling for Steven." "And they were still laughing." "They were laughing right here." "And I will never forget that." "As we drove by, that was the last time we saw them." "The police or no one ever came by our house." "We kind of thought they might, because we live three doors down, but no one ever came by." "This past year, they were making a big deal about the tip line on our news." "And I think I heard a long time ago that they went missing at, like, 6:00." "I said to myself, "I think that they need to know that they were around our house playing at 6:30." "They were over here in this neighborhood." "I thought that Terry would tell them that he was with the boys that day." "I never knew until this year that he was saying that he didn't see them at all." "He's not telling the truth." "He was out there with them." "I didn't know I was being investigated." "Nothing about what they're saying is true." "And it's just-- the only thing really that's ever bothered me is knowing that they've taken my name and said what they've said about me." "I learned a lot about depositions." "You know, stay out of that." "This next question I'm asking with all due respect to you" "and to the west Memphis police department, and I'm not being facetious at all," "but it appears that the west Memphis police department and the prosecutors have never looked at Terry hobbs" "one of the stepfathers of one of the victims-- seriously as being a person of interest or even a possible suspect in this case." "And I know you've been gone for a long time." "Do you have any understanding of why that is or any explanation of why that would be?" "Uh, I really can't comment on it." "You're uncomfortable talking about what actually transpired in that investigation." "Why is that?" "And the reason I am uncomfortable is..." "There is a wealth of money supporting the west Memphis three in getting them out of jail." "Now I believe-- I believe personally they're guilty of the crime." "Two juries said they were guilty of it." "I'm afraid I could say something inappropriately." "I could be wrong." "I could be forgetful." "And I don't want to say anything that would cause them to get a new trial just based on a comment I make." "Don't put that monkey on my back-- that I've said something incorrectly" "over 16 years that I may or may not remember, that they're going to be entitled to a new trial for something I said?" "No." "That's why I'm not going to discuss the case." " Fair enough." " If they have new evidence, hey, I'm all for it." "Go for it." "I looked at all the different categories." "I looked and reviewed the information relative to the case and pretty-- pretty clearly, and it's pretty easy to me" "to define this case as a personal cause homicide." "This is not a homicide either perpetrated by a stranger." "The person responsible for this crime knew these victims and knew these victims relatively well." "The question I'd ask myself is, if the motivation is murder, if the initial intent is murder, go ahead and kill." "Why did the subject decide to tie up the victims after stripping them down naked?" "I believe the initial intent, in my analysis, was not to kill, but was to taunt and to punish-- punish these individuals." "I saw criminal sophistication at the crime scene." "The tying of the wrists to the ankles" "I searched cases all over the world." "I couldn't come up with similar types of cases." "When I saw the offender decide to get into the water and to secrete the clothing by pushing down the sticks" "the sticks in the clothing, hiding the clothing along with the three victims, using that kind of concerted effort" "we're not looking at teenagers committing crimes like this." "We're looking at somebody who's relatively criminally sophisticated." "We're looking at somebody who has been violent in the past, who's violent now and at the time this crime was perpetrated, and would also be violent in the future." "The person responsible for this crime can look at you right in the eye-- can look at a camera and say that "I didn't do it."" "Because it's the psychopathic personality." "There is no remorse." "Anyone who perpetrates a crime like this and leaves the victims like this in this condition is only concerned about himself." "You could put him on the polygraph-- he'll pass the polygraph, particularly if it's 14 years later." "When John Douglas told me that Terry hobbs' record and background made me look like a boy scout," "I almost fell out." "And he was dead serious." "Here's a world-renowned, 30-year, probably the finest profiler in f.B.I. History." "I was nervous just being around him, thinking he's profiling me." "He told me he had done that a long time ago." "He knew I had nothing to do with it." "I've been asked, "do you think you're doing to Terry hobbs what was done to you?"" "No, no, no." "I'm talking about facts." "I'm talking about d.N.A. I'm talking about no alibi." "I'm talking about lies after lies after lies." "Why don't you hold this and let me hold that?" "And I'll tune it real quick." "Don't make me reach over and slap somebody." "Brothers." "God knows all things and why they happen." "We don't, but he does." "And we have to trust in him." "So I can tell you, there's always gonna be talk." "You know, even for us, we don't like some of the stuff that is on the TV and this and that" "that has been said, because we know, you know, that, no, you know, Terry could not have been-- that, you know, he didn't do this thing." "This is not Terry." "Terry's" "I mean, you've seen, you know." "I have never changed my mind from the conviction." "I don't care what all them other people put on that Internet," "I have never changed my mind." "I'm just like the state of Arkansas and I'm just like the legal system." "I believe in justice and I believe it was served." "They, you know, went through trial and everything." "They did what they did." "They arrested three boys." "Until we get told otherwise, we still believe that's the ones that should have been there-- until we get told otherwise." "I had something made-- just the pros and cons of Terry hobbs." "This pretty well speaks for itself." "Two items that would be on the innocent side-- that he needed to try to restrain three victims." "Some say that might be a little difficult." "Not really." "Once he hit one child, the other two probably froze like a deer in headlights." "According to the medical reports, all three children basically from blows to the head would have died." "And then possible secondary transfer-- that's referring to his hair that was found in a ligature tied to one of the children." "That's about all on the pro side you could find." "Let's look at the guilty." "Motive, means, and opportunity." "He had a violent past." "He worked in a slaughterhouse." "And he admits being in the woods at 6:30." "Terry hobbs admits it." "No one else puts him there." "He puts himself there." "No alibi." "Can't account for the crucial times from 6:30 to 8:00, 8:30 to 9:00," "10:00 to 11:15 and from 2:30 to 5:00 A.M." "That's a lot of gap in time of, what were you doing, Mr. hobbs?" "Where were you?" "Claims to have been with jacoby at times, jacoby denies." "Now here's your own witness denying what you said." "To me, that doesn't look too good." "Not interviewed or cleared by the police." "Now there, the west Memphis p.D., 101, totally fell on their face." "They didn't go talk to Terry hobbs and question him about what he did that night." "They didn't treat him the way they treated me." "Inconsistent statement-- he never saw any of the boys that day." "We know that's wrong." "He was seen by three witnesses that were neighbors." "That could have come out back on may 5th or 6th if the west Memphis p.D." "Would have canvassed that neighborhood." "They just canvassed this neighborhood, never went around and asked any of hobbs' neighbors a word." "They'd have told them that back then." "He would have been caught in his lie then." "He would have been the last person to have seen them." "The police would have zeroed in on him instead of Damien and they would have got the real killer and we would not be here talking today." "I believe that if this was presented to a jury, they would find Terry hobbs guilty." "This is more evidence and facts than against the west Memphis three or me or anyone else." "I'm gonna direct this, I guess, to the d.N.A. Experts." "Over the course of time, it seems that over and over again it's been different family members who have popped up as kind of being suspects in this case." "And I have to ask, is there really significant enough d.N.A. Evidence that could point to Terry hobbs?" "My personal opinion is I don't think that that hair evidence would be enough to convict Mr. hobbs or anybody in a similar situation, because it's simply not strong enough." "The percentages that I gave of people who could be the source of those hairs are 1 1/2% of the population." "That's not particularly strong evidence, and especially in the context of" "what most people are accustomed to with d.N.A. Testing." "So just to clarify, the d.N.A. Evidence-- the point of bringing it up isn't to say that hobbs did it," "but it's just to say, one could think it might be more likely that hobbs would have done it versus Damien, because there's no evidence there at all?" "The last thing as defense lawyers we would intend to do is indict and convict someone beyond a reasonable doubt of this case." "The evidence as to hobbs" "I don't think that it should be viewed that way." "But is it evidence that would lead any reasonable juror to acquit Damien echols?" "Yes, it would." "Defense attorneys announced they had new d.N.A. Evidence that shows no trace of echols" "or the other defendants at the crime scene." "Even some of the victims' relatives who initially agreed with the verdicts..." "That's what all three of 'em are-- punks." "Punks." "...now think the men in jail are innocent." "I would like to see another trial." "Give 'em a fair trial." "Present the evidence that really wasn't presented in the other trials." "And if they're guilty, so be it." "That's where they stay." "But if they're not, God, don't put somebody to death, because, you know, oops." "As Damien's lawyers, we are not taking on the burden of proving who actually committed these crimes." "The question for the court should be and will be, would a reasonable juror, looking at the entire picture now" "all the evidence of guilt, all the evidence of innocence, everything that was admitted at trial, everything that surfaced thereafter-- looking at that" "and throwing into the mix the d.N.A. Results, would a reasonable juror convict these people today?" "And the answer to that is no." "Judge David Burnett tentatively set up hearings for next month to determine if there is enough evidence" "to overturn the convictions of the west Memphis three." "Defense attorneys want to present new d.N.A. Evidence they hope will lead to a new trial." "Judge Burnett made it clear he could follow prosecutors' suggestions" "that the d.N.A. Evidence isn't enough for a new trial or to overturn the convictions." "If judge Burnett rules in favor of the state's opinion on echols's d.N.A. Pleading, this very well could be the end of the road for his defense." "In the newsroom, will Carter, region 8 news." "In September, judge David Burnett, who presided over both trials," "ruled he would not hear any new evidence in the case." "So Damien echols is now appealing his case to the Arkansas supreme court," "which has previously upheld the conviction." "This is the first time that the Arkansas supreme court is going to interpret the d.N.A. Statute." "So it's going to have enormous implications for everybody who comes in their wake." "I'm thinking about when we argue this in the Arkansas supreme court, the approach we want to take is," ""justices, you may be aware that this specific case has garnered a lot of interest," "but the interests at stake here are a lot broader than the three individuals before the court," "even though one of those literally has his life on the line."" " Good morning, your honors." " If it please the court, obviously, since my client is sentenced to death, the resolution of this case is of Paramount importance to him." "But the interests at stake here are far broader." "And that is because we are dealing with pure questions of law about the interpretation of what I'll call "the d.N.A. Statutes."" "What is the meaning of this Arkansas statute?" "There's language in that statute that says that if the d.N.A. Evidence excludes the defendant as the source of the d.N.A., which it did in our case," "then the trial court has to consider all the evidence, whether it was admitted at trial or not," "to see what a reasonable juror would do today." "This statute was passed to exonerate the innocent." "The state has really proposed an orwellian interpretation of the term "all."" ""All" simply means all." "The state took the position that in weighing all the evidence, what the statute meant to say was" "that the court consider only all the evidence of guilt, but not the evidence of innocence, which is nonsensical, because, of course," "if a trial court were to look at the d.N.A. Evidence, but then only consider all the evidence of guilt," "the court wouldn't be considering everything that makes a compelling case for innocence." "Let me ask you a question, Mr. riordan." "Let's focus on the evidence situation and let's say that I agree with you that maybe the trial judge was in error" "with respect to just limiting the evidence to evidence of guilt." "What evidence then would be considered?" "Would it be the evidence that was presented at the trial or everything that's occurred over the last 17 years?" "I don't think that it can be rationally read other than to say the court must consider-- that is, place in the scale-- not only the evidence of guilt but also all other evidence," "whether or not admitted at the first trial." "The court will recognize the counselor." "Good morning." "May it please the court," "Mr. echols has been to this court several times in the last decade challenging his conviction directly and collaterally," "and this statute does not call for a retrial." "It's not about trying somebody again for the state to prove guilt twice." "Counselor, what harm is there in allowing him to present the evidence from the last 17 years?" "I'm sorry?" "What harm is there in allowing him to present all evidence?" "Well, the harm is in the finality of a criminal judgment that is not demonstrated to have any constitutional or procedural defect and just to try it again." "I mean, you're suggesting, it sounds to me, justice, as though every 15 or 17 years or so," "we really ought to try cases again to re-establish guilt." "I think it's-- I think it's clear that the animating purpose here is not to retry." "So the harm is-- is to the criminal justice system's interest in finality and the work that gets done in evaluating whether or not justice has been served" "in each of the forums that Mr. echols has been through already." "It sounds as if your argument is that all evidence of guilt will be considered, but it's going to be extremely difficult to admit all other evidence that may have been exculpatory." "I think that's-- that is the argument." "It's the second alternative reason the circuit court concluded that relief should be denied." "And to me, that's-- that's a reasonable statute." "But where does it say, "all other evidence of guilt"?" "I understand that it doesn't expressly say that." "But you have to interpret the statute in light of its animating purpose." "And you have to interpret it in light of rules of grammar." "I mean, I think that's a very fair construction." "I'm having trouble following." "If the testing has to prove you're innocent, why would you even need a hearing?" "Well, again, I think you have to go back to context, your honor." "We have to deal with the clear meaning of the statute." "I understand your context argument, but we still have to deal with the clear language of the statute." "It comes out of a mind set that says," ""our job as prosecutors is just to make sure that everybody we prosecute is convicted," "everybody who's sentenced to death is killed." "This is a wrestling match to the death, and we've got to make sure that we come out on top in each instance."" "The legislature, in its wisdom, recognized that the criminal justice system," "like all human endeavors, sometimes is flawed." "But the Attorney General has taken the position that the criminal justice system is free of error and therefore is effectively divine." "I quote from their brief in the circuit court:" ""The state does not shrink from echols' charge that relief may never be granted" "under this view of the statute"-- its view" ""but embraces it out of confidence that the Arkansas criminal justice system does not convict the innocent."" "The state has taken a position that's directed not only about denying relief to Mr. echols, Mr. Baldwin, Mr. misskelley," "but ensuring that no one will ever be able to get relief under the Arkansas d.N.A. Statutes." "Riordan, your time has expired." "Thank you very much." "I thank the court for its attention and recognize the court may feel that the appropriate remedy is a remand to the trial court for an evidentiary hearing." " Thank you, your honor." " Thank you very much." "The clock on my head-- it ain't got no hands on it for a reason." "To me, it means time is standing still." "My time is standing still." "Everybody else's time is moving forward." "But here it is, what, almost 18 years later?" "Whatever time it is when, you know, the police finally let me out, that's what time I'm gonna put up there." "I've spent nearly 60% of my life incarcerated now." "And I've learned along the way that no matter where you're at," "you've got to make the most of it, enjoy it." "No matter how bad you may perceive it to be or how good you may perceive it to be, you've got to make the most of it, because this is where you're at right now." "You know, I just try to do my best every day, you know, regardless of the situation." "We take the hands we're dealt." "We make the most of it." "That's the way we make it through life." "You never, ever get sunlight." "I haven't been exposed to sunlight in almost seven years now." "You're in a cell pretty much, for all intents and purposes," "24 hours a day, seven days a week." "If I focused on the things I can't change, the things that have hurt me, what people have done to me, then they would've already broken me." "They would've have killed me inside and out." "I get up in the morning and I don't feel sorry for myself." "I don't hate my life." "You have a lot of people in here that all they can think about is what they don't have and how much they want out and how much they want something else." "But for some reason this situation has helped me to see more of what I do have and to be thankful for that." "You know, I have-- in a lot of ways" "I have a truly incredible life." "In less than 17 hours, the fates of Damien echols" "Jason Baldwin, and jessie misskelley could be decided." "A special hearing in jonesboro will bring together families of the victims and the three convicted murderers known as the west Memphis three for what could be an explosive resolution in this infamous case." "Now judge David Burnett-- he was the judge who rejected that the new d.N.A. Testing should get them a new trial" "he was elected to the State Senate last year, so a new judge, judge David laser, was appointed." "That's a major change in the case." "Also the supreme court disagreed with former judge Burnett and said the d.N.A. Testing did warrant at least a hearing" "to consider the possibility of a new trial." "Now that hearing was set for December, but yesterday judge laser and the attorneys involved" "surprised everybody by calling this hearing today." "It could all come to an end or just mark the beginning for even more of the same." " So what's gonna happen?" " Are they just literal" "I mean, they've been convicted of killing these kids." "Are they just going to walk out of jail?" "Well, what we have heard, what could happen today is that they could enter something that's very unusual called "alford pleas."" "And the three men will say, "look, we are innocent, but in order to get out of jail, we will plead guilty."" "I am David laser, circuit judge, division nine, the second judicial district of the state of Arkansas." "Subject to the court's approval, certain dispositive agreements have been reached" "by and between the state and the defendants in this case." "The alford plea-- it's a guilty plea with a profession of innocence." "If you would, please, Mr. echols," "Mr. Baldwin, Mr. misskelley, if you would stand, please..." "Mr. echols, how do you wish to plead in this case?" "Mr. Baldwin, how do you choose to plead in this case?" "The same as relates to you, Mr. misskelley, how do you wish to plead?" "All right, thank you." "The court finds each of the defendants guilty of first degree murder and the modified charges..." "At this moment the west Memphis three are free." "Okay, so just for clarity, then, David, it's not that these convictions were overturned." "They are still guilty, but they were freed." "Now this-- at the root of this change is d.N.A. Evidence or lack thereof." "Is that correct?" "That was one of the last things that came to the court's attention this year." "Now, if they did not go through with this deal today, those three would have been probably granted a new trial later this year." "But that trial could have taken years to complete." "So the judge-- again, reiterating," ""this was in the best interests," he said, "for everyone."" "This is not right." "And the people of Arkansas need to stand up and raise hell, because three innocent men are gonna have to claim today" "that they're guilty for a crime they didn't know, and that's bullshit." "Amen." "They're innocent." "They did not kill my son." "And this is wrong what the state of Arkansas is doing to cover their ass." "And I'm sick of it." "Because the real killer is walking around free." "Some are happy, some are angry, and some are perplexed." "And that's the case at the end of every trial." "And this one is no different." "Guilt or innocence was never on the table." "Today's proceedings allows the defendants to have the freedom to say that they're not guilty, but in fact they just pled guilty." "The legal tangle that has become known as the west Memphis three case is now finished." "Damien, with the alford plea, you had to say, for the court's purpose, that you're guilty of a crime" "that you professed to the judge that you did not commit." " Right." " Is this justice?" "Is this what you've been looking for?" "Is it bittersweet?" "It's not perfect." "It's not perfect by any means." "But at least it brings closure to some areas and some aspects." "You know, we can still bring up new evidence." "We can still continue the investigations we've been doing." "We can still try to clear our names." "The only difference is now we can do it from the outside instead of having to sit in prison and do it." "You know, this has been going on for over 18 years, and it's-- it's been an absolute living hell." "Were you concerned about the evidence that the defense was going to present at the upcoming evidentiary hearing, including juror misconduct-- allegations of juror misconduct?" "When the supreme court handed down this decision on November the 4th of last year, reopening issues of juror misconduct" "and everything-- and all these other matters on the basis of new d.N.A., then that caused some-- some troubles." "And this judge was most likely going to grant a new trial." "And if this judge granted a new trial, the defendants most likely" "I mean, we would do the best we could to prevail on the evidence, but most likely these defendants, the state believes, could very easily have been acquitted." " Yes, ma'am." "Will the state continue to investigate this case if additional information's brought forth or is the case closed?" "I have no reason to believe that there was anyone else involved in the homicide of these three children" "but the three defendants who pled guilty today." "Let me just point out one aspect of what happened today:" "These men not only walked out, they created today, by this plea, to me, proof positive of their innocence and the state's recognition of it." "Because does anyone believe that if the state had even the slightest" "continuing conviction that they were guilty, that they would let these men free today?" "It would've never happened." "But to me, the state's acceptance of an alford plea, in which they maintain their innocence, and releasing them, is evidence" "of the state's recognition of their innocence." "What does this mean for the state of Arkansas today?" "The significance of this case and that this is over today-- what does this mean?" "Well, I think for the benefit of the state of Arkansas and the office that I represent, it means that we have terminated prolonged litigation;" "we have terminated additional appeals and appeal hearings." "We've also, as part of the" "I mean, with their entry of a plea of guilty, we have removed the question" "of them filing a civil lawsuit against the state that could result in many millions of dollars." "I can't say that that wasn't part of mythinking in resolving this case for the best of this state" "and for trying to move this case forward and end it." "This was not justice, you know." "In the beginning we told nothing but the truth-- that we were innocent-- and they sent us to prison for the rest of our lives for it." "And then we had to come here, and the only thing that the state would do for us was to say," ""hey, we'll let you go only if you admit guilt."" "And that's not justice, no matter how you look at it." "They're not out there trying to find who really murdered those boys." "And I did not want to take the deal from the get-go." "However, they're trying to kill Damien." "And sometimes you just gotta bite the gun to save somebody." "I want to publicly thank Jason, too, just to let him know that I do acknowledge what he did, that he did want to keep fighting." "He didn't want to take this deal in the beginning." "And I recognize and acknowledge that he did do it almost entirely for me." "Thank you." "There's something very wrong with our judicial system today." "People have prejudices." "People have fears." "People have hates." "These things cloud our ability to reason." "We also have compassion, love, mercy." "But what makes it so difficult in the judicial system" "is that the people who are there to protect and serve-- they get so desensitized and they lose the ability to reason." "There's gotta be a way to reawaken the compassion in the people who run our justice system." "Under the state seal of Arkansas, on the banner, it says" ""justice" on one hand and "mercy" on the other." "Justice is lost." "It's broken." "I told the truth that I'm innocent-- they refused to let me go during my trial." "I take an alford plea today, say I'm guilty when really I'm innocent," "but just say I'm guilty and take this time-- and what do they do?" "They let me go." "That's not justice." "It's up to us as a people to change it." "It starts with all of us." "We've got to make the decision to take each person on their merit and not just lump everybody into something that we hate, mistrust, don't know about." "These are the very principles our country is built upon, but it's so hard to practice." "Hang onto that." "Grab it." "It's ours." "We need it." "It's what keeps us going, keeps us alive." "It's what prevents things like what's going on with me, Damien, and jessie from happening." "* just keep them closed, keep praying * * just keep waiting * waiting for the one" "* the day that never comes *" "* when you stand up and feel the warmth *" "* but the sunshine never comes, no *" "* no, the sunshine never comes *" "* push you across that line * just stay down this time * hide in yourself * crawl in yourself * you'll have your time" "* God, I'll make them pay * take it back one day" "* I'll end this day" "* I'll splatter color * on this gray * waiting for the one" "* the day that never comes" "* when you stand up and feel the warmth *" "* but the sunshine never comes *" "* love is a four-letter word * * and never spoken here * love is a four-letter word * * here in this prison" "* I suffer this no longer" "* I put an end to * this I swear, this I swear *" "* the sun will shine, this I swear, this I swear * * this I swear."