"THIS PROGRAMME CONTAINS STRONG LANGUAGES" "Go back to Kansas, assholes!" "# You should have listened to our words. #" "Look at all these people coming out to see us." "They think they're coming out to rage and rant, what they're coming out to do is to get bound to the standards." "Does your bandana say, "Thank God for cancer?"" "Every time a woman dies of breast cancer, or a man, you know, men get it too, you call that a God Smack." "You see, things are different today than they were when you were here four years ago, aren't they?" "Is it possible you've become even more weird?" "We've become more determined." "The Westboro Baptist Church is a fire and brimstone Christian group adamantly opposed to homosexuality." "It's this nation of these fags." "It's a nation of fags." "That's what "fag troop" means." "And spreading their message of God's hate by picketing soldier's funerals." "You're going to eat your babies." "And any preacher preaches in any other way is a lying, hell-bound false prophet." "In 2006, I made a documentary attempting to understand their motivations." "You're supposed to rejoice over all of God's judgements." "And do you rejoice when soldiers die in Iraq?" "Absolutely I do." "And you rejoice when people are knocked over by cars?" "And they get cancer?" "Absolutely." "I love it." "And I can tell you right now, because it's the righteous judgement of God Almighty." "Four years on and there have been a number of high profile defections, and their set of beliefs were becoming ever more bizarre." "There's your Goddess." "Your worthless flags, those soldiers are still dying." "There are signs the group might be unravelling." "Hoping to discover the truth, I decided to make a return visit to America's most hated family." "Though the head of the church is its pastor, Fred Phelps Senior, the day-to-day running of the ministry and much of the decision-making is left to his daughter, Shirley." "Hello." "Hello." "Can I come in?" "Yes, come in." "Thank you." "Shall we look at the signs?" "Yes." "The new signs." "As on my first visit, I broke the ice with the infamous placards." "See, first of all, because we've got lots of little people, so we made all these cute little miniatures." "Mini signs." "Mini signs for mini hands." "They're so cute." "And do the..." "Are the mini signs also slightly less lurid than some of the other signs?" "Is "Fear God" lurid?" "No, I mean not really." "The stick men, stick men having anal sex and things like that?" "I don't think there are any of those, but there is these cute little ones because we have our Jewish friends..." "There's some cute little, like that, is that cute?" "The doctrine is the same, correct?" "Yes, only we're down the time line." "Don't you always say that?" "I mean, Jesus is always around the corner, isn't he?" "And that's been the case for 2000 years." "Well, there's this one little difference." "You've got the Antichrist sitting in the most powerful office in the whole world." "Whose brain wave was it that Obama was the Antichrist?" "That is such a good question, you're going to love this." "It was a whole bunch of us looking, and, like, I'm thinking, "This guy's got to be the Antichrist."" "He fits all the descriptors, so then I think I was talking to Marge, and there was no question that a lot of us were thinking it, a lot of us." "What else has changed since I was here?" "Well, except for the fact that we run faster, we're way clearer, we are smaller - which is job security for all of the rest of us that are here." "Every rebel that goes, takes away a heavy burden." "A lot of people leaving?" "We have had a lot of that, it's like freaking Exodus out of here." "But it's really good." "So if you've got a rebel who wants to do this and that then they're always dragging their ass." "So you get rid of one of those and it's a lighter..." "You're unburdened." "The Phelps' are notorious for their pickets at funerals, especially those of soldiers killed in action." "But they also do a daily roster of local pickets of places of worship and other symbolic locations." "I joined some of the younger members outside a Catholic church." "Is it Noah?" "How are you doing?" "I'm good." "Do you remember me?" "From the BBC?" "Yeah." "How old are you now?" "11." "11." "Has anything changed since I last saw you?" "Same old same old?" "I guess so." "You've lost a few members of the church since I was here." "More than a few." "More than a few, who did you lose?" "Kay..." "Kay Hockenbarger." "Katherine." "Katherine Hockenbarger." "Libby." "There was probably a few more." "Yeah." "Were you sorry to see them go?" "No." "No." "They're not going to be one of God's elected." "If they don't want to be God's elected they've got to leave this place." "This is Zion." "Do you ever worry that you might go?" "Yes." "Do you?" "Why?" "Well, because you don't want to be cut out." "The human heart is always evil, I mean it's generally evil." "So there's always a fight between the flesh and the spirit and you're hoping that you won't leave, so..." "It depends, if the Lord loves you he'll give you grace." "If you feel you're being pulled in the wrong direction by your thoughts?" "What do you do?" "You get out of there, you stop thinking about that, you put that away." "What do you struggle with most?" "Somewhat talking and putting my thoughts into captivity, that's a big one." "I talk way too much." "And you, Gabriel?" "Pride of the heart." "Why?" "Because it lifts you up and then God will take you down." "One of those most closely affected by the defections was Steve Drain, whose daughter Lauren had left the church not long after my visit." "Like me, Steve had once been a film maker, but in the course of making his documentary about the Phelps' he'd been converted." "Louis!" "Hi, Steve, how are you doing?" "How are you my old friend?" "Good to see you." "Come on in." "Thanks for having me." "You want to see something?" "Sure." "'He now specialised in producing some of the church's online videos and provocative media.'" "Oh, yeah." "Oh, wow look at that." "What do you think?" "Is that going to be a sign?" "If you want it to be." "I designed it last night." "I have the file, all we have to do is print it." "The reason why I thought I'd make that sign is because, you know, as much of a nice guy as you are, you know that you're one of the chief workers of iniquity in the whole history of man." "I mean, you're up there with Pontius Pilate and Pharaoh." "Are you being serious?" "Yeah." "How am I up there with Pontius Pilate?" "He had considerable power and a considerable platform to do things otherwise." "And he did things the way that he did them, just like you." "You have considerable power, you could turn to the camera right now and you could say, "You know what?" ""I've done my research on these guys and what they preach is true." ""It says it in the Bible, and I fear God as well," ""and so what I think you guys should all do is listen to Fred Phelps and Westboro Baptist Church."" "But instead what you do is you kind of pick at us and you kind of in a humanistic way, kind of, you know, make us look kind of clownish and buffoonish and that kind of stuff." "But it's good for ratings, so welcome back." "Glad to be back." "I'm going to show you the Jew thing, that's rock, that's rocking." "ON SCREEN SUBTITLES SUNG TO HAVA NAGILA" "Even for you and the Westboro Baptist Church, that was surprisingly offensive." "Well, offensive in what way?" "Do we infer from the swastika that you are basically pro-Nazi at this point?" "No, no, what we can... what you can infer from the swastika is that was one of the ways that the Lord kicked your ass for your disobedience, and when the nations march on Israel and on the final days," "the holocaust will seem like a tea party by comparison." "That's what that's for." "And you will be rejoicing about that?" "Of course." "When the Lord afflicts somebody, he's decided that that's going to happen." "Are you going to complain against God?" "Yes." "Why?" "Well, because that's a human reaction." "No, it's a rebel reaction." "So since I was last here you lost a member of the family." "I did, well I didn't..." "I'm sorry to hear that." "Yeah, Lauren left." "Yes." "Why are you sorry to hear that?" "Because I'm sorry for her because I know she's upset and I've spoken to her, and I'm sorry for you because she was your daughter, is your daughter, and I know that you were very fond of her." "Once somebody comes to years, and they decide that they would rather enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season rather than suffer afflictions with the people of God, we say, "Bye."" "Would I be correct in thinking you've now removed any photos that you have of Lauren?" "Well, the ones that we had up, yeah." "I mean, yeah." "So you've kind of expunged most of the pieces of evidence, the evidence that she was ever even part of this family?" "No, I've got a mind." "You've chucked out the photos..." "OK, look..." "We have albums of photos they're just not on the wall, it's such a petty thing that you're hanging us on." "And Louis, look at this, she left, she left out of here, I didn't chuck her into Connecticut." "She said she didn't get to represent her point of view at a meeting." "Lauren got good words by everybody in this place for a long time." "She was prone to those sins for a long time, she got talked to by a lot of good people." "Which sins?" "You're talking about..." "Well, I'll tell you what sin, fornication for one." "She wanted a man, and she didn't want a man according to the scripture, she didn't want to be evenly yoked, she wanted a man." "She was in the most blessed place on earth, in these last dark days, she rejected every one on that council, her feet ran to sin whenever she had a chance, and all we were doing was hemming her into obedience." "She didn't have a heart to serve her God, and so we know that the only remedy and the only hope for her at that point is handing her over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh." "You expect me to believe that it was in no way upsetting or difficult?" "I was actually so relieved at the point that I said... ..and I was the first one of the meeting to say," ""She's got to go."" "What about you, Lucy?" "I understand you were crying when she got her things." "I knew you were going to ask that question, Louis." "I was crying because of what he's saying right there, because I knew what was in store for her soul." "What was the hardest part for you?" "The hardest part?" "Uh-huh, of saying goodbye to your daughter?" "I don't think they're..." "I don't, erm..." "You're not going to say it was easy?" "Probably just the logistics of what do we need to do, so that we are taking care of her." "We're not going to just send her out there on her own, so we made sure she had transportation, she already had a full time job as an RN." "Three nights at a hotel was also included." "We were willing to pay it as long as we needed to, she found her own place." "Pretty generous." "You know what?" "You're such a jack weasel." "You really are." "There's not a genuine bone in your body, all you want to do is picket the saints of God through a humanistic standard, and that's fine, we welcome that." "I'm a jack weasel because I don't agree with you?" "You're a jack weasel because you come here with your humanistic standard, you ask to apply it to us when you know it doesn't apply to us, the servants of the most high God, because at the end of the day what we're talking about is scriptural processes for doing things." "It's sad that a daughter no longer has her parents and that her parents no longer have a daughter." "That's your perspective and maybe a lot of your audience." "We don't talk to our parents because our parents are rebellious." "Do you understand that we have no communication with them?" "We're not sad about it." "We are not sad, because they teach rebellion." "That whole situation to date with Lauren happened for his glory to magnify his name." "Why are you back here, Louis?" "Exactly." "You're back here to pick at us because these children left the church of the Lord Jesus Christ." "That's why you're back here, and it's going to glorify God." "Every time you do a documentary film about the Westboro Baptist Church you're going to show those signs aren't you, Louis?" "Thank God for the BBC, thank God for Louis Theroux, and thank God that Lauren left this house." "Hello, how do you do?" "I'm Louis." "Hi Louis, I'm Lauren." "Lauren, nice to meet you." "Taylor." "Taylor." "'On my first filming trip I'd spent a couple of hours with Lauren and her sister, Taylor." "'She'd only been in the church a few years 'and I'd been struck by her commitment to the Phelps's doctrine.'" "If Taylor or Lauren decided to have a boyfriend for example, how would that work?" "Well, it wouldn't work, there are no boyfriends." "It's not like you go, "I'm just going to go be perverted now, what's going to happen, Dad?"." "Our dad's going to say," ""Get the heck out if you're going to sin against God, you know what the standards are in this house."" "Why's that perverted?" "Of course it's perv..." "Why's it perverted to have a boyfriend?" "There is a standard, one man, one woman for life, and that is the marriage bed, that is the marriage, that's it." "She'd left in 2007 and now lived 1,300 miles from Topeka in Connecticut." "She still worked as a nurse, but was no longer a part of the Westboro Baptist Church." "Hello." "Hi, Lauren, how are you?" "Good to see you." "Hi, Louis, how are you?" "Nice to see you again." "Thanks for having us." "Yes." "Can I come in?" "Yes, you may." "Do you want something to drink?" "That'd be great." "This is your place?" "Yes, I bought it in July of last year." "So, four years?" "Four then?" "Well, actually it was when I was 21, I'm 24 now, so I'll be 25 in December, so almost." "Yeah, you look quite different too." "Do I?" "Probably, yeah." "This is kind of like a collage of me and my little sister and my mom and dad when I was younger." "OK, here's a good one." "That's a family photo a long time ago." "Your dad has an earring in that one?" "Yeah, earring and long hair." "He was like in a rock band back then." "Was he?" "Yeah." "Was he pretty liberal?" "Yeah, yeah he was." "Like, I don't know, he had a lot of interesting friends." "What had your dad been doing for a living when you were growing up?" "He was still in school a lot." "He was still..." "Like, I mean he did different majors, like he was a professor... of like philosophy, western civilisation, he did film." "He had so much potential, like he was good at so many things, so well rounded, but he just chose to get caught up in this crazy church that, that's where he's made manifesting his ego, is there, and in this place where" "he can feel like he's right and everyone else is wrong." "It's got to be a very powerful feeling, and he has power over his family because he can, you know..." "It's a very all-or-nothing situation, either your kids do exactly what you tell them to do or they're not there." "How did you come to be here?" "There was a guy in the picture, wasn't there?" "There was someone you'd been corresponding with online?" "I didn't think my parents were going to throw me out, banish me and never talk to me again." "So I didn't really, like, I guess you'd say completely shut him down." "Then what happened?" "Then one day I came home from work and I was told that I was kicked out, and that I couldn't live in my house - my parents' house - any more." "Who told you that?" "My dad." "Do you think in a way it's because they're capable of being so cold to members of their own family, that makes them feel more OK about being cold and horrible to other people's families who are bereaved?" "The people at the funerals?" "Because they feel, "Well, we're holding everyone to an extremely high standard"?" "I'm sure it is." "I'm sure it gives him lots of leverage to say," ""Well, you can't say we wouldn't treat our own people this way," ""because we do, and here's an example"." "Do you think you'll ever see your family again?" "I'd love to see them." "But it's certainly possible that you won't?" "Right." "I've already come to that realisation, so..." "Some people lose their parents to cancer or car accidents or other things." "I've lost my parents to a cult." "SHOUTING AND CHANTING" "One big change since my previous visit was that the Phelps' pickets now attracted large counter demonstrations." "No longer so focused on the funerals of dead soldiers, now, like rock stars, they toured college campuses where they were met by throngs of protestors." "# Oh, when will we see that fiery sight?" "# Oh, you are a widow not a queen" "# Fat bottomed whores by our mighty Lord go down." "# Town clown." "Fat bottomed whores by our mighty Lord go down. #" "This appearance, 1,200 miles from Topeka at North Idaho College, was in honour of the staging of a play." "The director was among the onlookers." "What is the Laramie Project?" "People in Britain may not know." "Oh, it's a play based on the murder of Matthew Shepherd." "The young man who was gay?" "Exactly." "A hate crime?" "Yeah." "How do you feel about them coming?" "Well, you know, you never want to bring people who are so negative and hate filled into your community, so I really don't want them here." "But it has sparked some really good conversations and some really healthy discussion, and so I think that this community is turning it into a positive thing." "TO THE TUNE OF "TELEPHONE" BY LADY GAGA" "# Shut up, shut up, rebel You talk, God don't hear a thing" "# All you got is lust No will to just obey, obey" "# Wha, wha, what did you say?" "You think God loves your praying" "# He hates all you do 'Cause you love fornicating" "# Fo-fornicating" "# Fo-fornicating" "# He hates all you do 'Cause you love fornicating." "# No hesitation, you've got more perversion to display...#" "It was not yet 9.00am, but this was already the third picket of the day for the Phelps'." "They'd previously hit two local high schools, having started in the dark at 5.30am." "These are the last hours for this nation." "I just want to know your point of view about the first amendment, because it also includes the..." "The first amendment is beautiful, we love the first amendment." "The default is Hell. 99.9% of mankind is headed straight for Hell and there's nothing you can do about it." "Wait, wait, wait, I'm gay, am I going to hell?" "This is a very small remnant." "Yeah." "Of course you are." "If you don't repent, you're engaged in some filthy conduct, you're headed straight for Hell and there's nothing you can do about it." "You guys have to move back there." "OK." "Thank you." "Thank you." "Jesus can forgive you, but he doesn't forgive the rest of us?" "Did he just die for you?" "You mean he didn't forgive you?" "Forgive me for what, honey?" "For what?" "Oh, you mean you're perfect?" "You're sinless?" "Then why are you upset?" "Why are you upset?" "I'm not standing over here going..." "Honey, you're shaking with rage." "Actually no, I'm shaking because I have MS. I have MS." "If we go this way and then they leave." "Oh, I got you." "I just wanted to know." "I know." "Do you have a question?" "Yes, I mean..." "How do you respond to this?" "Yey!" "How happy is that?" "Back in Topeka and it was Sunday, the day of the church service." "As ever, the sermon would be delivered by Fred Phelps Senior, the Pater familias of the family and fount of its doctrine." "He and I had never really hit it off on my first visit." "For my return I was asked to sit near the back." "Keeping me company was one other mystery visitor." "Most Jews, that they should ask Barabbas and destroy Jesus, so they did." "And these modern Jews have the stinking smell of the criminal Barabbas about their person." "And they have the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ on their hands." "They brag about it on the picket lines, don't they, beloved?" "With snarled, curled, furled back lips." ""Ah, we killed Jesus and we'll kill you, too!"" "That's what thanks we get for preaching some truths to Jews in Brooklyn." "The cursed of God." "That sounds awful, doggoned intolerant." ""Shut up!"" "You and your intolerant bogie man." "Preach a little truth to you and you're all hell bent for leather." "Love you, amen." "And one out." "Any hope of a one on one with this pastor was soon dashed." "OK, we will." "Instead, I spoke to Jack." "Can I just have a quick chat with you?" "Sure." "What's your name?" "Jack." "Jack?" "Yes." "How do you do?" "I'm Louis." "Hi, Louis." "You're kind of infamous, right?" "Why did you say I'm infamous?" "Well, it's because they've spoken about you and now they're calling you ravens in their prayer, so..." "Ravens?" "Yeah, ravens." "Unclean ravens, that you're just here to be like a vassal." "Are you part of the church?" "No, no, I'm not a member." "Do you aim to become a member?" "Well, I hope, yes." "I mean if you're not a member of the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ then you're probably going to Hell." "So as it stands, would you be going to Hell at the moment?" "Yes." "Are you obeying the words at the moment?" "No." "I'm not." "Truthfully, no, because that is something that..." "I have to work on." "Jack's interested in joining the church." "Can you talk to me about that?" "Well, when we first met, maybe." "Oh, well, you mean when you got here from San Francisco?" "Well, hon!" "If you thought that coming here right off the streets of San Francisco and landing here the next day and say, "I want to be a member", we wouldn't do that, we didn't know you." "And we have that scripture that says, "Lay hands on no man suddenly"." "We would have to see the fruit of your doing." "Yes, exactly." "And I don't know if I've shown that, so that's..." "That's something I have to work on." "After the service I'd been invited to a display by the younger Phelps women." "I'm supposed to sit here?" "Yes, you are, sit, sit." "I've been surprised to hear them describe themselves as The Saucy Seven." "# Stop praying, stop praying God will not hear you anymore...#" "It was one of the latest examples of their practice of parodying topical pop songs, replacing the lyrics with abuse on a biblical theme." "# Can pray if you want but you got no hope" "# Only hell where you will forever burn" "# Go, devil spawn You just keep pushin' on" "# To the hell Where you will forever burn...#" "There seemed to be two urges at work, one to spread the message in the provocative Phelps style, another, simply to provide a hobby and an outlet for the younger members." "# Stop praying', stop prayin' God will not hear you anymore" "# You taught the boys And the girls to be proud whores" "# Stop praying', stop prayin' God will not hear you anymore" "# You taught the boys And the girls to be proud whores. #" "This is my room." "On my previous visit, I'd spent time with Jael Phelps." "Hello." "There's pictures everywhere." "Has there ever been a time when you felt tempted?" "I don't want to talk about that, I don't think it's appropriate." "I'm not going to dwell on anything inappropriate if I can possibly help it." "I'll take that as a yes." "I'm not going to answer that question." "I'm a dumb young girl, but I'm not that dumb and goofy to go..." "This is so silly." "I don't want to talk about it any more, OK?" "I thought I'd seen a conflict in her, but four years on she was still in the church." "I was curious to speak to her again." "This is our new house, this is my room." "We moved in here the year that I graduated from college in '07." "And, so, I got to design it myself, and I had help from my friends to paint it." "And it's really awesome, I think." "What do these pictures actually show?" "You have these awesome tsunamis." "We had just one called Meggie, which is cute, because we have little Megan." "Are you kind of rejoicing in these calamities?" "Definitely, definitely, yeah." "Why?" "Because they're the judgements of God and we're supposed to rejoice in all of his judgements." "All the people who die in calamities, like a tsunami or something like that, they're deserving of death?" "All human beings deserve death because they're born sinners." "Wow." "This is four years on from when I last saw you, has anything changed?" "A whole lot of things have changed." "You've also lost quite a few people along the way haven't you?" "Right." "Including one of your best friends." "That's right." "Who would that be?" "That was Lauren?" "Uh huh." "Yeah." "Then you were a nurse with her?" "Yes, she worked with me, we had the same job." "Were you sad to see your friend go?" "She wasn't my friend." "She had been until that point." "She had, but you see the about face that she did and everything that" "I thought she was, she wasn't that person." "It can't be easy to reset your whole thinking about a person overnight." "She was a liar, hon, and so I didn't know her, the person all of a sudden crops up." "I don't know that person." "Do you worry that it could be you?" "Anybody that has any right thinking, it says take heed, don't think that you stand unless you fall, because if you think, you get your chest puffed up," ""I'm serving God, I'm all that" and whatever, your ass is out of here." "Pride has no place in serving God." "There's no pride." "CHANTED:" "We can't hear you!" "We can't hear you!" "One of the biggest developments with the Phelps was a court case that had been brought against them by the father of a young soldier who's funeral the family had picketed in 2006." "The Supreme Court heard an emotionally charged case that could redefine the First Amendment right of free speech." "There is a civilised way to express an opinion in America, but it does not involve intentionally inflicting emotional distress on others." "Albert Snyder had won 13 million from the Phelps." "The decision was overturned on appeal and was now before the Supreme Court." "The Phelps elders, many of whom are lawyers, had made a high profile trip to Washington." "Reporters ask whether the Phelps family ever considered the Snyder family's feelings." "# Crying about your feelings" "# For your sin, no shame" "# You're going straight to Hell on your crazy train. #" "That's our answer about feelings." "Stop worshiping your feelings and start obeying God." "But the national exposure seemed to have spurred a sense of urgency in the church and fed into a concrete timetable for the second coming." "I wondered about the younger members and so I'd arranged to spend time with a couple of Shirley's children." "First up, 11-year-old Noah." "Can I come in?" "How are you doing?" "I'm good." "Do you feel you understand the message better now?" "Yes." "And do you understand that gay people, homosexuals, find the word "fag" offensive?" "I really don't care." "It's a good way to put it." ""Gay" actually means happy, and so it's way better than that." "And you can put all those big words, "homosexual," they're just a bunch of filthy fags." "I don't care if they find it offensive, it's wrong." "The Bible says it's wrong, so you can just shut up about that." "Did you just tell me to shut up?" "OK, sorry, sorry." "I'm just saying that..." "OK, sorry." "One of the things I've been learning since I was back is that we're actually quite close to the end of the whole process of the world, in a sense, and that Jesus might be coming back." "Do you know anything about that?" "Yes." "Would you like to explain that?" "Which part?" "Well, what..." "Well, where are we at?" "We're at the part with the Beast." "He's already ascended and the odd things that are happening..." "And who is the Beast?" "The Beast?" "Well, Antichrist Obama, possibly!" "We see all these last things happening and it says there's going to be a Beast and he's getting all sorts of popularity." "He's fitting all the roles that it talks about, and it's working perfectly, so we have all the reason to believe that he's the Beast." "And so what will happen next, do you know?" "What do you expect?" "My Aunt Paulette, she had a dream and she imagined this all in pink." "All of our people in a pink cave and far away from the place we are now." "Nothing like it." "And so, guess what?" "We looked up on the internet and we were looking for things and someone looked for that, and do you know what we found?" "Somewhere in the fertile crescent in Jordan, which used to be Moab, there are pink caves that are big and they would..." "That's just kind of..." "Isn't that kind of cool?" "You could end up in a pink cave in Jordan?" "I guess so." "I'm just saying that that's what happened." "Isn't that kind of cool?" "Yeah." "I just wanted to tell you that." "That's cool." "Next door to Noah was the room of Shirley's youngest daughter." "Can we come in?" "Uh-huh." "So, tell me a little bit about you." "Well, I'm Grace." "I'm 18 years old, what else?" "We've got three chaperones today?" "Why not?" "She's one of our fair little maidens and we guard our little fair maidens." "You were probably not much older than Grace when we interviewed you last time." "Here's the thing, Grace asked, because she knows." "She knows you, she knows that." "And she recognises that you would, if you could, entrap us in our words." "Sorry, you just make me a little nervous." "OK." "Basically, I don't believe what you're doing is right, I view it as deeply wrong and offensive." "And I don't believe that the Bible is the word of God." "So, you understand that I'm coming at it from a completely different point of view than you are?" "Right." "You get that?" "Right." "But did you like that?" "Because that was me sort of going on record as..." "I feel like I've got this reputation for being snake-like and insidious." "And I feel like actually I've come here with a fairly clear and open agenda." "And my agenda is to try and understand, on a human level, what has motivated the people in this church to engage in the behaviours that they have done." "So, tell me about you." "What do you like doing?" "Well, obviously..." "I like running." "And I like weight lifting, I like painting and I like ceramics." "You like photography, and you've got some photographs in here." "Correct." "Would you show us those?" "Sure." "This one's of my cousin." "And then this is my niece Mariah." "This is an adorable little Muslim boy." "We were picketing at the funeral of a Muslim in town and we were a couple of blocks away." "And I walked down with my camera because I wanted to get some pictures." "And I got that one." "You know, that's kind of striking." "The way you were saying you were picketing the funeral of the Muslim, and then you found an adorable boy a couple of blocks away who was a Muslim." "Do you see any contradiction there?" "I didn't set the bounds for his habitation." "I can't change that." "And saying that it's a cute picture doesn't change that." "Tell him about the circumstances of it, too." "Because we had burned the Koran." "Oh, yeah." "And the guy that was out there blasting us for doing the right thing, burning the Koran, showing its proper respect that it deserves, because it's an idolatrous piece of trash." "His wife died the next week and we picketed her funeral." "And that's the event that Grace took this picture at." "Wow, there was so many things there that were offensive, that was amazing." "Do you know how much trouble you can get into for speaking disrespectfully of the Koran?" "Do you have any idea what kind of God that backs us?" "And that is the God of the Bible." "He's a terrible and jealous and vengeful God." "All those angry little Muslims can just shut their mouths." "And you're saying his wife died because he denounced the Westboro Baptist Church?" "In part." "In part, yes." "In part, yes." "That's the judgement of God falling on his head." "He ought not to have ever opened his mouth, and he ought to have been burning the Koran with us." "That's the righteous judgement of God, and you can dispute that, but you're on the wrong side of that." "What would you say the next few years look like for you, Grace?" "Well, if the Lord tarries, I'm going to have this, I'm going to graduate in December." "You said, "If the Lord tarries."" "Right." "If he delays, in what respect?" "Well, we're expecting that the Supreme Court's going to rule in our favour because they know it's the right thing." "Because we have a First Amendment in this country." "And the people aren't going to..." "They aren't going to stand it." "They're going to be angry and they're going to demand that we leave." "Leave?" "The country." "Really?" "Yes." "And where will you go?" "What we're expecting, again the word expecting, is to Jerusalem." "That'll be interesting." "Tell them what happens next." "We're in the wilderness, we're in Jerusalem, wherever we're at, and then what happens?" "The 144,000 Jews who are going to have a heart to know their God, who's going to repent for killing their saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ." "We're going to be helping them." "And then we're expecting, soon after that, is the Lord's going to come." "You really do believe that?" "GIGGLES" "Yes, of course we do." "You were here four years ago, you're here again." "You think that we really don't believe what we say we believe?" "That's the time line." "This is the gym?" "Yes, it's right there." "'There was another woman I'd filmed who was no longer in the church," "'Libby Phelps" " Shirley's niece, the daughter of Fred Jr and his wife, Betty.'" "Are you just going to sit on the sidelines here?" "Yes, I'm just going to watch." "And Libby's, what, 23 years old?" "So people would..." "Most people would say," ""Well that's old enough to be able to handle yourself or be unaccompanied."" "What's your perspective on that?" "I'm sure she could handle herself just fine." "I just didn't have anything else to do this morning." "In five years, where will you be?" "I don't know what's going to happen in five years." "And I hope the Lord comes before five years gets here." "If we're still here on this earth in five years, I hope that I'm still here." "Where?" "Yes, at the Westboro Baptist Church." "Why do you hope you're still here?" "I don't want to go to hell." "Maybe you wouldn't go to hell?" "Where the worm that eats on you never dies and the fire is never quenched." "That's scary stuff." "Four years on and Libby was still living in Kansas, working as a physiotherapist, but no longer part of the church." "I visited her at home." "Hello." "Hey." "Hi, Louis." "How are you doing?" "You look great." "Thanks, Louis." "And this is a lovely place." "Thanks." "Thanks for having us." "No problem." "So, why did you leave?" "What happened that really caused me to leave was me and my family went to Puerto Rico." "And when we got back we had a picture of me and my sister wearing..." "Sarah?" "Yeah, my sister Sarah, yes." "We were wearing a bikini in a shot." "And my family saw the picture and they thought that we shouldn't be wearing bikinis." "So they called both of us up and were telling us it's inappropriate to wear that." "It's the four Bs." "You're not supposed to show your boobs, your belly, your back or your butt." "That's a rule." "So, when my cousin Megan came up to me asked me about it, I told her that she wore bikinis before and then all hell broke loose pretty much." "Because of the way that I reacted, because I stood up for myself and didn't think it was right that I was pretty much kind of picked on for wearing it." "Were they telling you to shape up?" "Or were they telling you that this is why you're being expelled?" "Well, they were pretty much telling me to shape up, they didn't say I was going to be expelled or anything." "But they..." "Yeah, they kept calling me at work." "And I was trying to work and so I was like, down in the basement, like, crying all the time." "At work?" "They're calling you to say what?" "Well, I didn't answer the phone until my grandpa called." "And he was the last person that I talked to." "And I wasn't thinking about leaving and he said," ""You're not going to leave, are you?" And I said, "No."" "Then, 30 minutes later there was like this really strong feeling like, "I've got to get out of here."" "Right before I left... ..my mom sent me a text message that said, "Are you having a good day?"" "And that was the last thing I saw." "And then I moved out." "You get upset thinking about your family and that you're separated from them?" "Is that it?" "Or is it the sense of unfairness that you feel?" "The separation from my family." "Because we had a really tight family bond." "And I miss my mom and dad." "Do you still worry that you might be going to hell?" "Sometimes, yes." "Why?" "Because of what my family..." "How my family raised me." "And when everybody else left... ..they say that we were going to go to the hottest part of hell." "Who?" "Who said that?" "Who's going to the hottest part of hell?" "The people who have left." "A little later, I went to see Libby's parents, Fred Jr and Betty." "Entre, entre." "Hello." "Hi, Fred." "How's it going?" "How are you doing?" "I'm good." "Hi, Betty." "Hello." "How are you?" "I'm good." "Did you see my dog?" "No." "Somebody tried to cut her head off." "Oh, my goodness." "You didn't hear about that?" "Why would they try to do that?" "It's a mystery." "We hadn't been here very long, we'd just moved in." "And we had a privacy fence, so..." "Do you think it's related to your ministry?" "Well, most people were very angry about it." "But every so often somebody will drive by and say they wish she was dead." "Is that sick or what?" "Since we saw you four years ago, Libby's gone?" "So I just was curious to talk to you about what happened and how that felt?" "Well, I hear she contacted you." "Yes, that's true." "What did she say?" "She just said that she'd left the church and she was living out in the world and..." "Well, we live in the world." "But you're not Earth dwellers." "OK." "Why did she leave?" "That's a good question." "She didn't tell me." "She didn't?" "Do you know why?" "Did she tell you?" "Betty?" "Do you have any inkling why she left?" "I believe that she determined that she was of the world." "As opposed to wanting to submit to the church." "Somebody told me she was carousing around." "After she left?" "I don't know." "What can you tell me?" "You should get in touch with her." "She didn't leave any forwarding address or number or anything." "I imagine that if you sincerely wanted to get in touch with her, you would be able to." "That's probably true, that's probably true." "Would you like to see Libby?" "Not necessarily." "I mean, I don't know what" "I'd see her for..." "I guess if there was any talk on her part of repentance or anything like that, perhaps then." "But, you know, she's got her own thing going." "It's quite normal for parents and children not to see completely eye-to-eye, but still to find a way of getting along." "Of course..." "Getting together on holidays..." "The saviour said that this was going to be happening." "Children against their parents, enemies in your own house." "Do you see her as an enemy?" "I don't see her as a friend, I don't see her as an ally." "Why not at least acknowledge that it was, in some ways emotional, or difficult?" "Oh, I mean, I'm a human being." "So obviously it was not something that you want to go through every day, let's put it that way." "Is it upsetting when it happens?" "Well, you know, everybody has their own level." "You know, upset..." "Clearly there were moments where..." "I'm not sure that's the right word." "Disappointment probably would be a better word." "What about you, Betty?" "Was it...?" "Pretty much the same as what he said." "Was it easy?" "No." "The thing that confuses me is that..." "No, you're not confused." "You're not confused, you know what's happening." "Well, to me, as an outsider, that seems very, very strange, and a little bit inhuman, if I may say." "Well, that's because you don't believe in the Bible, and if you want to talk about inhumanity," "I've spent the last 20 years working in corrections and I know what inhumanity is." "This is not inhumane, this is what she needs, and this is what our obligation is." "Our concern is towards the elect." "You feel she's not among the elect, she's not part of the church, but don't you still owe her a duty of care?" "Some level of concern as parents?" "No, there's no..." "I've discussed with you our obligation." "And you feel the same way, Betty?" "Yes." "You don't need to check in with her just to make sure, as parents, that she's OK?" "Right." "Why?" "I said right." "I said why?" "For what he just said." "'It was odd seeing people so obviously distraught 'by the turn events had taken, and yet so incapable or afraid of expressing their feelings." "'I couldn't help feeling sorry for Fred and Betty, 'and wondering at the strange exile the strange exile they'd imposed on their daughter and themselves.'" "Hi, Shirley." "Hi, Louis." "'The younger members were, if anything, even more constrained." "'Unable to be friends with anyone not part of the family, 'and therefore with no prospect of marriage." "'But for them, there was a small loophole." "'They could have contact with outsiders in the form 'of the journalists who would come and visit." "'I'd heard some of the girls talking about a young film crew from Holland 'gifts had been exchanged, and they'd kept in touch.'" "Did you see that sign?" "'During my conversation in Grace's bedroom with Megan and Jael, more details had emerged.'" "Who are your Dutch friends?" "OK, we have..." "There's a Dutch film crew that came, it was actually a part of a student project, and so we've kept up with them..." "On Twitter, we talk to them on Twitter sometimes, and they ask, you know, they have a lot of questions and..." "See that's the thing, when we interact with people on these levels, they know who we are and they know how we live our lives, and the fact that they see that we can live in this earth and do all the things that they do " "I mean, not all the things, but a lot of the same things that they do - and still have this public testimony, it's a testimony against them." "That's what it is." "Against them?" "Against them." "I was following you right up to the very end and then suddenly, I lost it." "Because they see that it's possible to live on this earth and live sober, righteous and godly." "If you'll forgive me, isn't that a little two-faced?" "If you sort of are saying you enjoy corresponding..." "No, because they know. ..with them and chatting to them, and exchanging gifts, but at some level, it's all a way of proving how... how inferior they are?" "No, no what it is is..." "It does, in the end, it testifies against them if they continue to reject it, it's worse for them than for people who've never seen these things." "And me and Grace, see, they left us a little flip video camera, for us to shoot some footage of ourselves, to talk and leave them messages or whatever before they left, and the last thing we did was we..." "..wrote this thing, we tried to say it ourselves, but we were crying." "So me and Grace couldn't say it, we had to give it to my mom, for her to say it." "Why were you crying?" "Because we..." "It's a sorrowful thing." "Yeah, exactly." "Because we spent a week with these people, we know who they are, we interacted with them, we were..." "You enjoyed their company enough to harbour a hope that maybe they might be receptive?" "They did not make any accommodations for the flesh." "What, are you like the Gestapo now?" "You, like, interject..." "Your role is interject the doctrinal hardline at key moments when people are showing vulnerability?" "I'd like to curtsey to that." "Can I tell you what I see?" "I see someone who's having their cake and eating it, you know, someone who's toeing the line verbally about... this is God's judgement and this is what I believe, but all the time is fulfilling themselves emotionally" "with something that's exactly like any other earthly friendship." "The difference is I know, I know what I'm dealing with, we know that this guy is an Earth dweller." "This guy's a student film maker?" "How old is he?" "Um, 25?" "Do you have a picture of him?" "Yes." "Why do you want to see a picture of him?" "I'm wondering that too." "He's holding a chocolate that we delivered to him via his room mate at a hotel in New York." "Why do you get sad when..." "What's his name?" "Pepin?" "Papian." "Why do you get sad thinking about Papian going to hell?" "Aren't you supposed to rejoice in all of God's judgements?" "Yes and I'm thankful for it, and I know that if that's the judgement from God..." "So why did you get sad?" "But it doesn't change the fact that it is a wrong, wrong, wrong thing that his parents did in raising him for the devil." "Wasn't that God's doing?" "I mean, isn't he a vessel made for destruction?" "If, in the end, that's what it is, then that's what it is." "So why sad?" "Because of what his parents did to him." "And if, put in the right circumstances, he would do precisely what Cain did to Abel." "If push came to shove, he'd kill her in a heartbeat." "Based on?" "Based on reality." "He'd kill?" "Why on earth would this director kill Megan?" "You see, when you point and..." "And also, when you lie to someone, that's..." "When you lie to someone about the word of God, that's worse than any physical thing you could do to a person." "So I can talk, we can talk to him and we can, you know, have fun and talk about books or whatever, but in the end, I know and he knows that there's..." "that there's a day coming, and he's going to answer to the Lord for what he's done." "'With my return visit to the Phelps' nearly at an end," "'I was with Steve, attending one of their local daily pickets.'" "Do you want to hold a sign?" "Er, it's against my ethics." "It's against my religion." "Why are you trying to pose a difference between religion and ethics?" "Because I don't believe in God." "Yeah." "Well, you know what the Bible says about you, right?" "The fool that says in his heart there is no God is a fool, Louis." "Well, the Bible would say that, wouldn't it?" "Are these some of the new ones?" "Oh, look, this is good, I like this." "That's a weird one." "Bitch burger?" "I made that." "The idea of it is it's less cruel for them to put them on a bun and eat them than what they do." "They break their moral compasses, they take them into those..." "Who is the bitch?" "The baby?" "No, no, no, it's the woman." "TUNE OF POKER FACE BY LADY GAGA PLAYS" "# You can't tell them that you love 'em" "# You despise them and you're bluffin'" "# You've got nothin' So you're lying..." "# You're just hating All the truth came running" "# Just like a freak-out playing dress-up" "# Though those costumes they can't help you out" "# God promises, promises your destruction's so marvellous" "# You ain't got, you ain't got No you ain't got no poker face" "# Though you're good to everybody" "# You just got, you just got... #" "Why you guys think that you can speak for God, did God tell you to come be..." "Because we can read." "You read the word of God, that's how we can speak for him." "You can read, right?" "Yeah, I can fucking read!" "Yeah, well, so cry out loud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet and show my people their transgressions." "That means your sin, that means your manner of life, make it crystal clear what the manner of your sin is." "God hates fags." "What part of that don't you understand, girl?" "I don't fucking understand why God hates fags!" "I don't fucking understand why God hates anyone except for fucking bigots!" "Because he can." "I'm sorry that you were raised for the devil, but I'm going to teach my children what the Lord their God doth require of them." "You were raised for the devil and I'm sorry about that." "But your parents obviously did not love you, they hated you." "Do you like it better when she gets upset?" "It's not a matter of what I like, Louis, what I'm telling you is her moral compass is broken." "I told you at the house, the youth of America, they have no idea what the Lord our God requires of us." "To me, as an outsider, it's mildly upsetting to see someone get upset." "Do you feel that in any way?" "I know it's mildly upsetting to you." "Is it upsetting to you to see her get upset?" "No, it's upsetting to me that her parents raised her for the devil, and I'm not going to lie to her, she's been lied to way too much already." "So what I'm going to do instead out of my love for her..." "You don't accept that you just made her upset?" "I didn't make her upset, the word of God made her upset, Louis." "At the end of the day, we know that even though people get upset at us, they're not really upset at us, they're upset with the word, with the word of God, in the same way when Christ was alive," "we will not have this man to rule over us." "We'll not have this man to rule over us." "It's the word, it's not us." "Are you happy?" "I'm happy as a man can be on this earth." "I hope for better things, I seek..." "I don't live in a continuing city," "I don't have a place here, I'm not of this world." "I hope for an eternal spot with the King." "I hope to behold the beauty of the Lord, I hope to enquire in his temple," "I hope to dwell with the Lord for all of the days of eternity, that's what I hope for." "Great God and saviour, we thank you thee for those promises, and we pray that the judge of all the earth we do right, and we know we will, and those that have surrounded us, to come upon us, to eat up our flesh, that posse of Satan that has been deluded into thinking..." "'My return visit to the Phelps' had convinced me that they were 'embarked on an eccentric mission to live life in denial of the most basic human emotions.'" "We pray that those that have encompassed about us, to do war against us, that thou has promised that they that are incensed against us shall perish, that is to say..." "'Stifling their own feelings, they felt entitled, in fact compelled, 'to trample on those of other people.'" "HE PLAYS A PIANO" "# O land of rest, for thee I sigh!" "# When will the moment come" "# When I shall lay... #" "'Whether they really would move to Jerusalem, let alone a pink cave in Jordan, seemed doubtful." "'More likely was a patent of more media stunts, more defections, and a trail of tormented families, 'those they picketed and, increasingly, their own.'" "# We'll work till Jesus comes We'll work..." "# Till Jesus comes And we'll be gathered home" "# We'll be gathered home" "# With the Lord. #" "My time with the Phelps was up, but before I left, I had one last conversation with Shirley." "Has it been stressful or weird for you seeing so many people leave?" "No, actually, with each one, it gets kind of expected, and... just a blip on the radar." "As far as you're concerned, it's the correct thing to do for a parent of a child that they've raised for 20 years or more to turn their back and say, "Actually," ""from now on, we have no contact, and you are as good as dead to me"?" "They have walked away and they have crucified the son of God afresh and laid him to an open shame." "Before I would go comfort any of those rebels in their sins," "I would first have to, you know, mistreat..." "What would I be saying to my children?" "My faithful children?" "We're just talking about some bare bones, minimal human contact." "Life is too short, eternity is too long, hell is too hot." "I'm not getting anywhere near that edge." "Do you think you'll lose more of your kids?" "I don't know." "I always keep my eyes open and watch my children." "And sometimes, I see something in them that disturbs me, but I can't be, and I am not, outcome oriented." "I have to stay on task." "I just have to be sure they know what their duty is, and that they obey." "If you lose..." "If you lose another one, another two, another three, another four, does anything change?" "No, and if the Lord tarried and, um, all of them left, it wouldn't change anything." "Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd" "E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk"