"Once you get in those trucks, you're going where the fighters go... the front line." "There are still Gaddafi troops there." " Where?" " After this." "And I wanted to see it." "Look at this." "Jesus." "The real fighters in any war are probably dead, because they're the guys who were on the front, who were doing the real fighting." "The most important piece of equipment you have is what you have inside... your sense, your conscience, my own sense of right and wrong." "And then it caught me." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "I mean, it wasn't my war, but I didn't want to leave." "Like, I was scared there, but I didn't want to leave." "I felt like if I was leaving, then I was almost giving up in a way." "Original air date November 12, 2012" "Fighting has continued around the cities of Bin Jawad and Ras Lanuf as Gaddafi loyalists intensify their offensive against the rebels." "The clashes are the result of a nationwide uprising against Gaddafi's 40-year rule that began at least 233 people have been killed in five days of violence in Libya." "Opposition groups put the figure much higher." "There was like this amazing energy happening at that time that you could really only see if you were on the very front." "They were willing to risk anything so they could break out of this containment." "I've been there five times." "In terms of conflict," "Libya was really my first one." "I just jumped on a plane and... no assignment or anything." "What drew me to the place originally was... you know, the pictures were certainly part of it, but it was more to, like, experience whatever it is that's happening in this region." "Now that the war is over, most of the journalists and the photographers left." "In some ways, it's almost more interesting, because when the fighting was in full swing it was very simple, you know, black and white." "You had pro-Gaddafi and the revolutionary fighters." "You know, the action is in front of you." "You know what side you're on." "Everything's very clear." "I mean, every time you go back to a place, there's like these layers and you're kind of learning more." "And the more you learn, the more complicated you see things are." "And now it feels like the story isn't so obvious." "Allahu akbar." "Allahu akbar." "I had no idea what it was like to grow up in a country like Libya, you know, under Gaddafi." "But I could relate in a way to how these young people were feeling." "All youth have this, like, sense of wanting to break out and wanting to become their own people." "You know, there's something very beautiful and necessary about that." "At the very beginning of this thing, when I first came in, they knew why you were here, what your reasons for being here were." "You were a journalist or a photographer and you were here to report their side of the war." "American..." "What I feel when I go through these checkpoints is, like, they're just kind of like out on the road checking cars and occasionally getting into a firefight with guys who they were fighting in the war with." "They were all fighting against Gaddafi." "And now it's like, "Who are we fighting against?"" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Okay." "_" "_" " Oh, he's still holding people inside." " Yeah." "You got the national army and we got the Zintanis." "They weren't agreeing in the first place." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Everybody is so aggressive." " I'm taking pictures." " No, stop." "What?" "What's the problem?" "This guy's ill." "He's ill." "He's ill." "This guy's ill." "Okay." "All right." "Okay." "So then he grabbed me from my hand to there and he wanted to arrest me." "He put me in his pickup truck." "Then another guy tried to take my camera." " He put you in the pickup truck." " Yeah." "And he grabbed the camera and threw it on the ground?" " He threw it on the ground." "That's it." " Fucking guys." "This is what he has left... just this." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "The front lines aren't so clear anymore." "The war is over, but there's still conflicts." "And you might not know when you're in a situation that could potentially get you hurt or killed." "Under the regime of Gaddafi the system changed to a system antagonistic to the society." "And the society are antagonistic to the system." "In another way, the system doesn't trust the society;" "The society doesn't trust the system." "Everybody is suspicious about the intention of the other individual." "That is the way Libyans were dealing with each other." "It is all what we call paranoia." "What happened to him?" "Every individual has six million people to deal with them in a paranoid position." "Imagine it, what it's like." "It's a nightmare, an absolute nightmare." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Here in Libya while the revolution was going on, everyone using their cell phones to make videos and photos." "So, like, me walking around using my iPhone..." "I wasn't a photographer, you know." "I didn't want to be seen as a photographer." " How are you?" " Good." "Good." "Good." "I am fine." "He's here." "He's here." "What do the people want exactly from this?" " You see this?" " Yeah." ""No for the old regime."" " The people." " Right." "_" "_" "_" "_" "He thought the revolution had succeeded, but now he realized that it's not." "How did he realize this?" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" " We need new people." " New people?" "_" "_" "_" "Here he comes again." "Look, look, look." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Allahu akbar!" "Yeah, these were Gaddafi tanks that advanced into Benghazi." "They were hit by NATO." "We came out here the day after they were hit." "That's great." "Can't get enough, dude." "So this is Bin Jawad, man, traditionally a pro-Gaddafi town." "I came to a couple battles here." "We were ambushed by guys." "They started shooting at us." "This is one of the many weapons depots in Libya that's... well, this one's unguarded." "You can just drive in here as we are." "You could start a small army with a lot of this shit." "I think if you rode with a checkpoint with one of these, you'd probably be stopped." "I might be wrong, but..." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Welcome to Libya, the craziest country on Earth." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "The problem of this present government... they're just dealing with it as a country as a whole." "No, it's not a country as a whole." "It was never united until 1952." "It was three states." "Gaddafi understood it as three countries." "Gaddafi'd go into the mountains, cities and towns." "He'd come to Tripoli..." ""This is the capital." "This is the capital of Libya."" "Then he would go to Sirte and say, like," ""I'm from here." "I'm from here." "You're my tribe, you know." "We're ruling this country."" "We're in Sirte." "We're at the highest point in area number two, which is the area that was hit the hardest." "Did you see all the bullet holes and shot-up doors?" "He destroyed their houses." "He stole their money, emasculated them in a way, after feeling so powerful for so long." "You've come to liberate them, saying that, you know," ""We're bringing freedom for you."" "To people who were really comfortable with the old regime... you really didn't do them any favor." "We're at a katiba right outside Sirte, and these guys have captured guys who were on the road trying to smuggle weapons around." "This is what they caught yesterday." "Oh, shit." "All in one day?" "Yeah." "There's a lot of weapons in here." "These are all volunteers from Sirte who fought for Gaddafi." " Where did they get this notebook?" " Found it in their houses." " In the houses?" " Yeah." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Small..." "Small... mortar." "His little baby died in this house right here." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "I'm sorry." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "* What makes *" "* A kettle whistle?" "*" "* What makes gold precious?" "*" "* How come some people... *" "Imagine coming home to this, man." "* Will show you everything?" "*" "* How come some people... *" "I'll need to change direction slightly, so I'll probably change direction in here." "There's, like, an 82mm round or something that's literally sticking into this wall." "So he's going to make a little lasso around it and yank it off the wall so we can explode it." "Once you've heard the blow, stay under cover," " because what goes up is gonna come down." " Right." "Yeah, there's cover in here." "I'm making sure I'm completely covered." "Ka-boom!" "French warplanes and an American Predator drone attacked a giant convoy of more than 100 four-wheel-drive vehicles leaving west out of Gaddafi's hometown of Sirte." "We're the first ones to arrive." "There were just like these random bodies scattered all around the scene." "I mean, I saw, like, 95 bodies that morning." "This is Gaddafi's vehicle." "After NATO bombed the cars," "Gaddafi ran from his car at some point and ran all the way over here, ran inside a pipe that goes under this highway... this one." "He was crawling out of this one and he was caught, like, right here." "You know, the day that he was caught, Osama and I were here." "We came here shortly after it." "Allahu akbar!" "Allahu akbar!" "The next morning I just hitchhiked into Misrata." "And, you know, that's when I went to see Gaddafi." "But, you know, after seeing all these bodies and then going to Misrata and seeing Gaddafi on the ground, it was just like..." "for me, like, it was such a sad thing, you know?" "People are, like, having to die over one man." "_" "Guy Martin and I were there and Katie was there." "And, you know, all three of us were very inexperienced." "With Tim, it was like..." "he was like an older brother." "He was, like, very interested in us and how we saw things and what kind of pictures we were taking." "One of the conversations that Hetherington and I had is, we started talking about, you know, the truth of a scene, the truth of a situation, the truth of what you're feeling and experiencing and what is an honest representation of a scene for you." "It's not the same for you as it is for me." "Him and I were in Ajdabiya, and there was a scene where there were a few Gaddafi bodies on the ground." "When we were taking pictures, these rebels came up, and they were throwing their hands in front of us, giving us, you know, the peace sign, and they were laughing and stuff." "And the image that I was trying to capture was the image without these guys in the picture, because, like, I didn't want to have a picture of, you know, a few dead bodies on the ground and this hand's coming in" "and this guy's laughing and, you know, giving me the peace sign." "What is that?" "That's fucked up." "You know, but the image that he thought was more interesting was the picture of these guys coming in." "Should I have taken that picture?" "I guess, you know, the most honest thing would have been to shoot a picture with these guys, especially recording the scene for history." "It wasn't his country or his war or his people, but what they were fighting for was related to what he was looking for." "You can call him a war photographer, but that wasn't him." "He was looking for something else." "But he could find that in war." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Tawergha." "Blotted out, man." "Tawergha is a town that has been there for hundreds and hundreds of years." "And then, by saying we cannot come back," "Tawergha doesn't exist anymore and let's just wipe it out of the map." "How can you do that?" "How can you do that?" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Wow, look at all the trucks out there." "Holy shit." "_" "_" "All right, come on." "As soon as they saw the cameras, the RPG guys got back in the trucks." "_" "He's from Misrata." "Oh, and so we can't go inside because... why?" " Why can't we go inside?" " Now it's not possible." "This is what I was concerned about, is the guys trying to prevent us from going inside." "But, really, fuck that." "We're still gonna go in." "Fuck." "There's God, Moammar, Libya, nothing else." "The Misratis are saying that Tawerghans cannot come back because when Misrata was under siege, this is where Gaddafi's forces were firing the Grad rockets." "Also, the Misratis say that the women were raped by the Tawerghans." "The Tawerghans cannot come back." "Hey, here come some trucks." "Oh, yeah?" "Really?" "Come on." "Come on." "So we're here in old Tawergha going along with these Misratan guys." "They got guns." "_" "_" "Uh, April?" "_" "Misrata... there isn't that many loyalists." "But because of its location... it's 200 kilometers from Tripoli," "200 kilometers from Sirte... you know, they're surrounded by loyalists." "The harm is done." "They've defied Gaddafi." "And now they really have to protect the city and their property and protect their women." "And that had turned into a battle for survival." "As soon as Gaddafi was ousted, they have their problems there." "And they're not the same values that the revolution was based on." "You can't get caught in the crossfire." "In about 300 meters and counting... see him rolling down?" "I think he's got a gun on top." "Yeah." "Everything in Tawergha is guilty." "This is what you call collective blame." "Not only the fighters from Tawergha who fought with Gaddafi, but also the women, the children and the dogs." "And the houses as well." "Yeah, I know." "We can't shoot it." "Okay, okay." " What did he say?" "Oh, yeah?" " Don't film." "_" "Oh." "Let's go." "I'm gonna keep these." "The little guy." "If the men died, there are children that grow up to be bitter." "They'll hate you." "They'll do anything to hurt you." "It's gonna be encrypted in their DNA." "They're gonna pass it on to the next generation." "You're talking about an epidemic." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "* 'Cause it's God or it's guilt *" "* Or the life that you built *" "* Or the place that you're in *" "* That's losing its appeal... *" "Misrata was under siege for months, you know, from three directions, random shelling coming into the city all day long." "A hundred rockets every day for, like, months." "The whole idea was killing everyone in Misrata or at least making them surrender, you know, and give up." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "How do you mean, media?" "_" "_" "_" "_" "When we first arrived in Misrata, you couldn't walk anywhere on Tripoli street." "You know, there were still a lot of snipers." "And so we had to come in on the side streets because the fighters were fighting block by block." "These buildings right here... these higher buildings were loaded with snipers too, and they were shooting at everything and anything." "I mean, the street was literally like a shooting gallery, you know, something out of a videogame or whatever." "It was crazy." "This is, you know, the bridge." "And that day, you know, the Gaddafi forces were, like, around that bridge down there." "The force that we were walking alongside were not professional soldiers, you know." "They were fighters who had been going to university or who had been carpenters or physicians or mechanics or whatever." "So everybody was kind of learning on the spot." "It would be like you and I trying to fight for our hometown and having to learn everything while we're doing it." "There was a kid here on that day who had, like, this, like, long handmade sword, you know?" "He was just, like, walking around like a revolutionary knight or something." "Out of the pictures I shot on that day," "I really think of that picture." "_" " Grenade." " He threw a grenade down the stairwell?" "Yeah." "There's one right there on the stairs." "Crazy." "I mean, I remember, like, having a really uncomfortable feeling, you know." "Like I didn't want to be there 'cause I didn't feel protected." "I should have trusted myself." "The shield had already been partially shattered from that morning." "The last photograph that Hetherington and I shot was here." ""Hey, Mike, come check this out"... a helmet that had a bullet hole." "Then we all started walking back, away from where Gaddafi forces were, and that gave me a very good feeling." "I felt more comfortable." "I felt safety." "And I felt like I was gonna be okay." "No problem." "The one video I saw was the mortar coming in... the one that hit us." "I see the black smoke and the truck coming by and hear Katie's voice." "She's screaming." "And I was in the same truck as Katie." "When we were hit by the mortar, blood was rushing out of me." "And what was going through my head was like, "What the fuck am I doing?"" "Because I was so angry on that day." "I was just... more than anything, I was angry, man." "I was fucking angry." "Move, move." "_" "_" "We begin with breaking news out of Libya, where, tragically, photojournalist and Academy Award-nominated director Tim Hetherington has died from wounds suffered award-winning US photojournalists have been killed." "American Chris Hondros was also killed as their group came under fire." "...two other journalists, Michael Christopher Brown was hit in the shoulder with shrapnel." "His injuries are not considered to be life-threatening." "Another photojournalist, Guy Martin, British citizen, suffered a serious..." "This is where the mortar hit." "Really destabilized me, kind of woke me up in a way that... you know, the sense of how far I can go and how much I can get into a situation." "That prescription that I had given myself throughout the war was shattered." "You know, it brought up all these other questions of the importance of what I do and the importance of me being there and how much that was worth." "_" "_" "One thing I remember was, the guy who was always in the front was Tim." "For me, it seemed pretty clear that he was operating from his own instinct, you know, his own conscience." "And, you know, I felt like maybe the rest of us were kind of, you know, following him and Chris." "We were kind of following them." "How they died, in Misrata, like, under siege, when a lot of fighting was going on, and they were war photographers... you know, that means absolutely nothing." "The reasons for why they were here and why we were here and what we were doing, you can't explain to someone." "You know, it's something you can't explain." "It's something that has to be experienced so you can understand why people do this." "That's one of the reasons why I was here... because I wanted to understand what that was." "And I think now... now I understand the costs involved." "Dude, it's amazing these guys are getting away with this shit, you know?" "You can photograph the action of war, which is conflict." "What's happening within the battlefield... that's one thing." "But what's happening in the surroundings around the battlefield becomes more interesting." "Because that's where you begin to see the impacts on the people in the community and the effects of war." "Having so many times, like, really good feelings... like I should be here, in this good fight." "And then getting rid of Gaddafi and, you know, these people are right." "And maybe it has to go through this." "People have to die so they can gain what they lost 42 years ago." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Nobody can go home." "Because if anybody tried to go now over there, yeah, they would kill them." "The people from Misrata... they will kill them, you know?" "And now it's more than three months we don't have papers." "They can't take their salaries and they can't study." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Impossible." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "If there is no solution, there is a war is gonna happen in here." "It's gonna be... a lot of people are gonna die." "A lot of innocent people is gonna get hurt in this, you know." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Is this the katiba?" "No one's here." "All the photographers are gone." "You know, the context even becomes more difficult." "Like, it's not as easy." "You can't just grab it." "You have to search for it." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Hey, hey, wait, wait, wait." "Wait." "Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on." "Stop, stop, stop." "_" "Give it to him." "Give it to him." "Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, okay?" "Jared, Jared, get in the car." "Guys, get in." "Get in." "Get in." "Get in." "Get in." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Do we have the name of the son?" "Maybe we should get the name of the son." "Shukran." "Shukran." "Thank you." "Thank you very much." "Yeah, thank you very much." "We'll try and spread your story, you know?" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Thank you, sir." "Thank you." "Just listening to him, you know." "When he started speaking in English, it was only him and I, you know, and I was really hearing him." "And you totally understand what he's talking about." "This identification with these people and what they're going through... this is a crucial part of this work." "You know, for me, like, I have to do that." "You know, like, I have to understand what it is they're going through so I can... so I can do this, you know?" "One thing that Tim was really interested in was the ways in which men learn about war and the ways in which we become warriors, how the icons become important and how these icons are handed down from generation to generation." "Mohammed Abujanah..." "he's my neighbor." "So he died on 17 of February, in the first days of revolution." "He was one of the first 13 people who get killed on Giuliana Bridge." "You know him?" "19th of March, when they attacked Benghazi." "He's an engineer." "And this is Mouawea Osman." "He's a brother of my friend." "They cut his body to pieces." "Adul Gadhi." "They're asking who can drive bulldozer, who can drive bulldozer." "He said, "I can do it."" "So then he drove the bulldozer to the wall of that brigade." "He knew he would die." "Allahu Akbar!" "It was so, so brave." "Allahu akbar!" "Allahu akbar!" "_" "There was, like, a sense that if I came, that I could really do something that I hadn't ever done before." "That carried me." "That really carried me." "_" "_" "_" "Okay, here we go." "Takbir." "Takbir." "Allahu akbar." "Allahu akbar." "_" "_" "_" "_" "In revolutions and in wars... this is where you can feel the emotions that are involved with people who have given up all their fear and who have thrown themselves into the wind." "If the war was in my country, would I still be a photographer?" "I don't know." "Probably." "_"