"This programme contains strong language from the start, and scenes which some viewers may find disturbing." "Right, Holly." "Shall we start again?" "From the beginning." "'At me mates', there's no-one standing at the window 'waiting to kick off.'" "If you like it so much, why don't you go live there, then?" "!" "When are you going to let me have sex with you?" "No..." "No..." "'Don't let them kiss you.' Get off me!" "I don't take my top off, or nothing." "'You're not safe." "'He's going to kill you.'" "Tell me everything you want the police to know." "Like who?" "I don't know what they're going to do to us." "Who?" "The men." "They do nothing to us." "You come back home with us, and we'll sort this." "I promise you." "We'll sort it." "You were saying, about Tariq and Amber..." "Tariq started taking us places." "He started picking us up and... ..Amber thought that he was her boyfriend." "So, what did you think was going on when he picked you up?" "I didn't actually know he was taking us to have sex." "I don't know if she did, but..." "So, what did you think was going to happen?" "I don't know." "What do you want?" "Is Amber Bowen at this address?" "Amber!" "Why, what do you want her for?" "Hmm?" "Amber Bowen?" "Yeah." "We're arresting you on suspicion of inciting girls to prostitution." "Doing what?" "She's 15. 15- in a cell!" "She's being interviewed now." "What for?" "What for?" "!" "She's got a solicitor with her." "I'm her mum!" "I should be in there with her." "I know me fucking rights!" "Look, you can either wait here or we'll call you when it's concluded." "She's 15!" "Are you arranging for girls to have sex with men?" "No comment." "Are you taking money while other girls have sex with men?" "No comment." "Are you a madam, Amber?" "No comment." "Your mum's outside having a fag." "What you done?" "They wouldn't tell me." "Is Ruby doing it?" "Whatever it is, is Ruby doing it?" "I've got to go." "Where are you going?" "Where are you going?" "Ruby..." "What?" "What are you doing?" "Where do you go, when you're out with them Pakis?" "What do you do?" "Um..." "I sit on the settee." "They give me money for sitting on the settee." "Ruby is pregnant." "We'll need more tests to check for STIs." "Are you going to bash my face in?" "No..." "Ruby..." "No." "Why would you say that?" "Cos that's what you always said." "If me or Amber got pregnant before we were 16..." "Come here..." "Do you know who got you pregnant?" "Yeah." "What's he called?" "Billy." "Billy what?" "Just Billy." "Do you know where he lives?" "Havelock Grange." "Right." "Come on." "Why?" "I don't want him to get into trouble." "It's alright, you just point at his house." "Is that his taxi?" "Yeah." "And is that his house?" "Yeah." "Can we go now?" "Bye." "Bye." "See ya." "Bye." "Bye." "Hello, Rochdale Police." "'13-year-old on the child protection register, 'got a statement of learning needs, 'pregnant by a mid-30s man with a family of his own.'" "I can tell you his name, his address, his licence plate." "She's getting a termination tomorrow at Millfield Road Clinic, 3 o'clock." "Hello." "Ruby Bowen?" "Ruby's frightened of needles." "She'll be fine." "It's OK." "He was doing appeasement." "What's that, then?" "Like, he was just saying yeah to what Hitler wanted, just to, like, keep the peace?" "Very good." "Where was he from?" "The Conservatives." "What part of the world?" "Well, that's not in it, is it?" "It's a bonus question." "Dad!" "It's GCSEs not a pub quiz." "Oi, smartarse, how many GCSEs have you got?" "How many have you?" "No comment." "Well, what about what's in there?" "Did I do alright?" "alright?" "You got every one." "And for that, Paxo here's going to make you a cup of tea." "One for me, as well, please!" "What's her name?" "She's so cute." "Holly." "I've got yours." "Girls, can we have a minute, please?" "Did I pass any?" "You passed them all." "Every one." "You can do A levels, Holly." "You can go to university." "You can do whatever you want." "Holly'll be back soon." "Don't you want to know how she got on?" "Course I do." "I'm going to go and meet her halfway." "Tell us!" "Will you just tell us?" "Where's Dad?" "Passed 'em all." "Every single one." "That's fantastic, love." "Dad?" "What's wrong?" "Your case has been dropped." "There's going to be no charges." "Against anyone." "Why?" "Cos there's an "unrealistic prospect of conviction"." "His DNA's all over your knickers..." "Jim!" "..and there's an "unrealistic prospect of conviction"." "Mum?" "What about all the interviews I did, and picking 'em out of a line-up?" "It wasn't the police, Holly." "It was CPS." "Why?" "I told the truth." "I told 'em everything." "I know." "They didn't think a jury would believe you." "Thanks very much, but no thanks." "You don't even know what I'm going to ask you yet." "I know you've got an operation running into sex abuse by Asian gangs." "What else have you heard?" "That there's a foetus been found in a freezer belonging to a 13-year-old girl." "You've had a 15-year-old locked in a cell for being a madam." "All sorts." "It's not good." "But we've a chance now to put it right." "We can get convictions here, Maggie, if we can re-engage the girls." "I've been here before, Sandy." "2004, 2005- same story, but Manchester not Rochdale." "I spent over a year getting two 14-year-old girls to spill their guts to me about what had been done to them, only for the whole thing to just fade away." "Maggie, you can trust me when I tell you, there's a fair wind behind this one." "You can have a force-9 gale, but that won't compel a vulnerable kid into a witness box." "I know that." "Which is why I need you." "Come on, Maggie." "Let me just show you the file." "File?" "alright, Files." "Amber and Ruby Bowen." "Amber of the jail cell." "Ruby of the foetus." "They're key to this, and we need 'em." "Both of 'em." "They're both victims of the same group of men." "But Amber was arrested?" "She was, yeah." "Other kids thought she was in control." "Maybe she even thought she was in control but, of course, she wasn't." "The men were." "She was never charged" "And Ruby?" "Well, we've got Forensics with the foetus that leads us right to the perpetrator... if we can get her consent for us having it in the first place." "So, she doesn't know that we have it or that it was ever taken?" "I'm not going to lie to you, Maggie." "It's a mess." "Rochdale's had trouble with on-street grooming going way back, and even when they had a cracking case, kid called Holly Winshaw, they never got it to trial." "Now the IPCC are investigating their failings." "How many victims?" "47." "They're drowning in it." "My priority is to reopen every one of these cases." "And re-engage the girls." "Adil Khan." "Shabir Ahmed, Abdul Aziz." "Kabeer Hasan." "Mohammed Sajid." "Mohammed Amin." "Abdul Raulf." "Abdul Qayyum." "Hamid Safi." "Anya Miah, we don't need to bother about him, cos he's in jail already." "What for, sir?" "Child abuse charges going back to the 1980s." "He was a fugitive from the law when he did what he did to these girls." "He got 15 years, so he's out the way." "'I want the rest of these individuals arrested." "'I want them taken to separate police stations to be interviewed, 'and I want their houses searched." "'The press know we've an operation running." "'They've agreed to a news embargo till the new year.'" "You don't have to get hold of me." "'If your role is with victims, 'then I want you planning your approach with Peter Boyd,' who's a specialist interview advisor." "I know Mr Guthrie will have belaboured the point, but I am going to hammer it home some more." "This entire operation stands and falls on us being able to re-engage these girls." "They were children who were raped and abused, and when they went to the police nothing was done about it." "What this investigation needs, more than anything, is open minds." "I want you going out there thinking of these girls as your own kids or grandkids." "Cos if it was your own, you'd be torn to pieces." "Why?" "Why now?" "Mr Winshaw is Holly at home?" "She's in a mother-and-baby hostel." "I've got three other kids in there, and I can't have Holly ripping a hole in the middle of this house." "And do you know who I blame for that?" "Whose fault it is that she's in pieces and seems determined to stay that way?" "You." "All of you." "I'm Maggie Oliver." "I'm a detective with Greater Manchester Police." "This is Detective John Duff." "I'd like to talk to you and the girls." "They're not here." "Who is it?" "Mum!" "Who are you?" "What are you saying they've done?" "We're not saying they've done anything." "Far from it." "We need their help." "We're here because they were both victims of offences." "Just fucking answer me when I ask you!" "Who the fuck are they?" "!" "Stay in the house." "For fuck's sake, what are you doing?" "Get in!" "Fuck..." "Greater Manchester Police are reopening an investigation into what went on." "We've come to ask if they'd be prepared to make statements." "What do you think you're doing, coming to my door now?" "I understand you weren't expecting us, but we're..." "Expecting you?" "Why would I be expecting you?" "You knew what were going on and what did you do?" "Arrest me daughter for being a pimp." "No-one bothered." "Except that Sara at Sexual Health." "None of you..." "We want nothing to do with any of you." "So don't come near, cos we are giving you nothing!" "What are you doing?" "I'm not doing nothing." "Why you shouting at me?" "I'm not shouting at you!" "Just fuck off!" "Fuck off!" "Fuck OFF!" "Sara..." "I'm DC Maggie Oliver." "I'm a detective with Greater Manchester Police." "OK." "GMP's running an operation, Operation Span, to put right what went wrong at Rochdale in relation to the grooming of young girls." "I understand that you made several referrals to the police in relation to two girls in particular, Amber and Ruby Bowen." "So, I'm here in the hope that you might have some relevant intelligence in relation to them." "I..." "I've...got the car, so, um, if there are files, I can take 'em now." "Fuck off." "No, really." "I mean it." "Fuck off!" "I've been in here, sat in here, for years, and what you're demanding off me now" "I couldn't pay you lot to look at for years." "And what, you swan in here off the street with your Prada handbag telling me to hand it over like you were asking to check me gas meter?" "I understand..." "Oh, no, you don't." "You really, really don't." "What those girls have been telling me for years" "I have been powerless to do anything about" "Because you lot didn't want to know." "Well, we want to know now." "This is the biggest operation GMP's running." "What do you think been happening to those girls in the meantime?" "Raped, beaten, not believed." "Raped, beaten, not believed." "What do you think that does to a kid?" "Do you think they're sitting round waiting to do their civic duty because you lot have got your act together?" "If you want documents off me, make an application." "Fill out a form." "Do whatever official thing it is you coppers have to do when you're after evidence." "But don't rock up here after all these years, acting like you're the saviour of the family!" "Here's your little bunny." "Here you go." "Here he is." "Holly... when you went to the police about Tariq and Daddy and those other men, the CPS made a decision not to prosecute." "But now there's a new team of police working on the kind of crime you were a victim of." "We want to reopen your case and bring these men to trial." "So, you want me to help you?" "Yeah, we do." "When you NEVER helped me." "Why would I do that?" "Because you come here and you sit, being nice to me baby?" "Why don't you try taking me to McDonald's?" "Or is it just social workers who do that?" "It's pathetic." "I just want to talk to you, Holly." "The police just want to talk to you." "I've talked to 'em." "I've talked to 'em and talked to 'em and talked to 'em and talked to 'em." "And then they turn round and call me a liar." "Are you Margaret Oliver?" "I am, yeah." "From Sara Rowbotham, Rochdale Sexual Health." "There's two more down the hall." "There aren't 47 girls." "There's hundreds of 'em." "She's got names, addresses, reg plates." "Multiple girls reporting the same perpetrators." "Why the hell didn't Rochdale CID have these files?" "Because they didn't want 'em." "What do you mean, they didn't want them?" "It's bloody evidence." "Not according to them." "Sexual Health made hundreds of referrals to the police and they got the same response every time." ""This isn't evidence, Sara, it's just intelligence," ""and it's not something for us to do anything about."" "No wonder she wiped the floor with me." "Operation Stable Door, this." "The girls will just not talk to us." "We've underestimated how fragile they are and the level of anger and betrayal they feel towards the police." "Well, because this is a live investigation for Greater Manchester Police, detectives are keeping their cards pretty close to their chests, but what we do know is that nine arrests were made here in Rochdale just before Christmas over allegations" "concerning the sexual exploitation of teenage girls." "Now, we understand that all the men are Asian, and that all the girls involved are white." "The arrests were made on suspicion of allowing premises to be used for prostitution, of inciting child prostitution, suspicion of rape and sexual activity with a child." "The nine men have been released on bail while police investigate the allegations." "Hannah, am I right in thinking that these are not new allegations?" "Well, these allegations were made to Rochdale police in 2008, however, the case was dropped and none of the complaints against these men ever made it to trial." "This is something Greater Manchester Police is going to have to grapple with as the police's own watchdog, the Independent Police Complaints Commission has been brought in to look at what happened." "It's early days yet for that inquiry but we do know there are concerns within Greater Manchester Police about the standard and the quality of the earlier investigation." "What do you think you're going to find?" "I'm not a total fucking moron." "You know the score, Holly." "Sobriety is a condition of you keeping Ella." "That's why we do these spot checks." "I could be arseholed right now and you lot wouldn't have a clue." "Are you?" "Course I'm fucking not!" "You're not helping yourself." "Or her." "You're a pointless fucking bitch." "Do you know that?" "This is Emily Stone from the CPS, who'll be working alongside us at Span from here on in." "There's a couple of cases where the evidence is already there." "Holly Winshaw." "Ruby Bowen, Amber Bowen." "They've told us where to go, I know that, but we need to approach them again." "I just don't think a family like the Bowens would cooperate with us in a month of Sundays." "What's the obstacle?" "It's that." "It's that, John." "It's THAT attitude." ""A family like that." That's the obstacle." "Lorna can smell that off us as soon as look at us because everyone in authority treats her like that." "It's..." "It's not brain surgery, this." "We treat them as human beings, and we say we're sorry." "'Hello?" "'" "Oh, hi, Lorna." "'Who is this?" "'" "'It's Maggie Oliver, we met a couple of weeks ago 'when I came around your house to talk to you about the girls.'" "Hello, can you hear me?" "'What do you want?" "Look, I told you...'" "Yep, I know you did." "And I'm not surprised, because if I were you and a copper 'came round to my door, I'd want to hose them off the pavement." "But..." "'I'd like another chance to talk to you.'" "What happened to your girls is a disgrace." "What we LET happen." "But we've got a chance to put it right." "Ring me next week." "Who's ringing you next week?" "Just someone from housing." "'And the lead in the Times says 'a culture of silence that has facilitated the sexual exploitation 'of hundreds of young British girls 'by criminal pimping gangs is exposed by the paper." "'Today a pattern of abuse across the North and the Midlands is...'" "'The Times is pursuing a revelation in the paper 'that there is sexual exploitation of hundreds of young girls...'" "The Times newspaper identified 17 prosecutions 'of street grooming over the past 14 years 'and it said of the 56 convicted in those cases," "'53 were Asian.'" "Mags..." "Mags!" "A word?" "Have you seen the papers?" "It's all eyes on us." "The Times is saying the failures in Rochdale happened because police were scared of upsetting racial sensitivities." "Well, if those men come back off bail and we can't charge them with anything, there's going to be riots." "They don't know I'm meeting you, you know." "Neither of 'em." "Amber don't like to think about that time." "Does she ever talk about it?" "Not to me." "Never." "Lorna... we've got Ruby's foetus." "When she had the termination, it was seized by the police." "Why?" "So that they could test it and get a DNA match with the bloke that got her pregnant." "They got the match, but they didn't do any more about it then." "But we can now, if Ruby gives her permission to let us use those DNA results in court." "Sorry..." "There's a real chance that we can get this man put away, and all the others, if we can get the girls to talk." "You don't understand." "Amber, she knows it were wrong." "But Ruby, she'll never talk to you." "Still thinks them blokes were friends." "If she sees them in the street, she..." "She waves." "Amber's got to live in 'ere cos of Ruby's anger problems." "She can't be at home wi' me." "Hiya." "She's not herself today." "Are you?" "What's wrong with her?" "She's not going to toilet." "If you lie her on a blanket and cycle her legs, sometimes that can help move things along." "I've never heard of that before." "Have you, Amber?" "Worked with my four, and me grandsons, except for one, who I think holds it in just to spite me." "You're a cop?" "Yeah." "Coming on 20 years now." "When my kids went to school," "I went to uni and, um, then I joined the force." "I'm not going in any police station." "You wouldn't have to." "There's a special unit in Bury." "It's for victims." "That's what you were." "A victim." "One of many." "And we'd support you, as a victim, all the way through to trial." "They'll kill me if I say owt to police." "They don't know where you live." "Take 'em five seconds to find out." "I see 'em on the streets." "If I go out." "Which I don't." "So, you're stuck in here, in a homeless hostel with a newborn... ..while they're out there, free to go on about their lives." "When did you move out your mum and dad's?" "Couple of months ago." "Too much fighting with me dad." "He's just mad at everything." "Mad at me, mad at the police, mad at CPS." "He joined BNP." "Did he?" "Yeah." "Then left it again." "Mad at them, probably." "Anyway, he's right that there's no-one's stood over me, forcing me to neck a bottle of cider every night." "It's not as simple as that, though, is it?" "He was like, "Right, Holly," ""they've washed their hands of you, move on." ""No-one's going to do owt for you."" "They didn't then." "But they want to now." "What's the point?" "It were years ago." "Does it feel like years ago?" "Sir?" "Yeah." "Holly Winshaw's on board." "Thank God for that." "Well done, Nina." "Oh, it wasn't me, sir." "It was Sara." "Holly trusts her." "Right." "Let's go after these bastards." "At last, we've a number of girls who've agreed to be interviewed." "But it's the quality of those interviews that's going to make or break our case with the CPS." "Memory degrades like tape degrades." "They won't, off the tops of their heads, remember names, addresses, because they were drunk, yes, but mainly because they don't want to." "Every time you ask a question, you are re-traumatising them." "You're bringing them back there." "But there's no other way." "'Because these girls' memories...' Hiya. '.." "That's our crime scene.'" "Hiya." "You alright?" "Hiya, little girl." "Oh!" "Ohh!" "Aren't you sweet!" "Cameras, so we've got your evidence to play at court." "I know." "I've been here before." "Course you have." "What I want you to do now, Holly, is start right at the beginning." "Tell me, in as much detail as you can, everything that's happened." "Amber..." "In the files, back at the office, there was this, um, list of names that you wrote out for Gregory, that social worker that you saw for a bit last year." "Do you remember telling him about those names?" "Your mum said that he left shortly after that." "You must have felt very let down." "Thing is, those names." "They're a really important piece of evidence, and, um... ..maybe we can build on it." "Maybe you and me, we can make something of it." "He said, "Don't cry."" "And he said, "You're beautiful."" "And when he was on top of you, what was you doing?" "I were trying to move, but... ..I just gave up." "Cos what's the point in trying?" "DC Margaret Oliver interviewing Amber Bowen." "Amber... ..can you tell me about when you went to the kebab shops?" "Everything that bitch did, she did free willingly." "That fucking sket Holly Winshaw." "Lying fucking bitch." "The list that you gave Gregory, the social worker who was around for a while, that was a list of lots of men, wasn't it?" "Addresses of lots of different flats." "They never touched me." "They actually never touched me unless I wanted them to touch me." "Will you be alright on your own?" "Me mum's bringing Yasmin back in a minute." "First one's the hardest because you're opening up that box that's locked in your head." "It'll get easier." "No..." "No!" "Can you let me in please, Holly?" "It's jackboot tactics, is what it is." "She's safe and happy here." "Come and have a look at her." "She's safe and happy in this house with me and my wife." "Holly was fully aware that this would be the outcome if she carried on the way she was." "This isn't about Holly now, is it?" "It's about Ella." "My granddaughter." "I am perfectly capable and my wife is perfectly capable of looking after our own." "This is temporary." "At the moment, it's temporary." "She'll be in foster care for the next few weeks," "I'm sorry, but we have to enforce the order." "No..." "Holly." "Please don't." "I'll do better." "I'll change." "We have to, Holly." "I'm sorry!" "Dad, please!" "They've got to take the baby." "Come on." "No." "No." "No." "Daddy." "No." "No." "I can't do no more." "I can't do no more." "You're helping other kids by doing this." "You know that, don't you?" "Making sure that what happened to you never happens to them." "Imagine how you'd feel if they ever went near Yasmin." "They never could." "They never would, cos I'd wouldn't let them." "Yeah, but what if she didn't have someone like you?" "What about those kids who don't have anyone to protect them?" "I can't do no more." "You can." "I know you can." "OK. alright." "Go on, then." "Go in there, give it another go." "Our star witness looking like she's too vulnerable to proceed." "How's Holly doing?" "I don't know." "It's too early to say." "She's still in hospital, but I do know her parents don't want us coming anywhere near." "Maggie?" "The boss wants to see you." "I've heard Amber's first interview, Maggie." "She's calling Holly every name under the sun." "I know that first interview with Amber wasn't what we needed, but she's done hours more since then." "She's given us names, places, phone numbers, taxi firms." "We need Ruby." "But Ruby's a different kettle of fish altogether." "We need to start thinking like prosecutors now." "There's forensics with Ruby, the foetus." "If she gives us consent to use it." "And right now..." "Right now, she's our best chance of successful prosecution." "I've spent months building a relationship with Amber because that's what it's taken to get her to trust the police." "She was scared at first, Sandy, but then she's really started to open up." "We're not talking about Amber." "I'd like you to engage Ruby." "Sir." "Amber wanted to see you today." "The little one's teething." "Any tips?" "Well, I just wanted a chat to Ruby today on our own." "I'm not going to lie to you, Ruby." "I want you to tell me what happened to you." "You went through a terrible time, and we want to make sure that that never happens to other children." "It wasn't a terrible time." "It was one of the best times." "It were mint." "You were 13 years old, and he was a married man of nearly 40 with children of his own, and he got you pregnant." "That's not right." "You don't know anything." "I know you were the victim of somebody who was older..." "We was having a relationship." "He loved me." "I wasn't a victim of anything." "I told you you'd have no chance with Ruby." "It's OK." "She's just got to work it out in her own head." "She's asleep." "Fine, OK." "Do you want to come in?" "She's got nothing to live for now." "No focus, no purpose." "And it's maddening, cos she played right into their hands and did the exact thing that gave them the power to take Ella off her." "You lot egged her on... to get involved with this." "You can all go home, can't you, at the end of the day." "It's her that's left with it going round and round in her head." "Yeah." "I did egg her on... because I thought it would help her." "Oh, it's done her the power of good, ain't it?" "And I still think that this is important, psychologically, for her to get the chance to stand up and say what happened." "She's been standing up for years." "Yeah, she has, but now, finally... ..there's people listening." "Did it look like a baby?" "I don't know." "How big was it?" "Was it tiny?" "I don't know." "Why did they freeze it?" "I think so then it won't go off." "So they can do tests on it if they wanted to." "But they can't do owt with the results unless you say they can." "OK." "It's a shame for it." "What happened to it." "In't it?" "Yeah." "It won't always be like this." "Yeah, it will." "We can apply for guardianship of her." "Me and your mum." "If you want that." "I don't know why I did it." "I don't..." "Sara came to see you." "Sounds like the coppers, this time round, they're night and day from the other lot." "You don't have to have anything to do with 'em, but if you want to carry on with this..." "..your mum and me, we... we'll be right behind you." "Come on, Ruby." "They pass you round like a ball." "They, like, get your number and then there's, like," "50 people you don't know who are ringing you." "What do you mean, they pass you round like a ball, Ruby?" "They'd be in a flat in, like, a massive circle... ..and then they'd put the white girl in the middle." "Then you'd get sent off with one of them, and then you'd come back and, like, get passed and passed again." "And where was the flat?" "There weren't one." "There were loads." "I didn't feel anything." "Why do you think you felt like that?" "Because it had been going on for so long." "'It hurt... '..because I didn't want to do it." "'And I'd only had sex, like, 'a couple of times before that, as well." "'Say again." "Sorry?" "'Cos I'd only had sex, like, a couple of times before that." "'Amber thought that he was her boyfriend." "'So, what did you think was going to happen when he picked you up?" "'I didn't actually know he was taking us to have sex." "'What was you doing?" "'I were trying to move." "'But I just gave up." "'Because what's the point in trying?" "'" "The problem is the witness Holly Winshaw." "She was seen as unreliable then and, arguably, she's even less likely to convince a jury now, given the troubles she's had in the meantime." "Chaotic." "Chaotic." "That is exactly the kind of person who's affected by this crime." "The girl that no-one's looking out for, who's on the streets at night, out of control of the parents." "That quality made her a victim in the first place." "Agreed." "So, if it's also the quality that keeps her out the witness box, isn't she doubly damned?" "But to be ultra-pragmatic for a moment, what is the point in subjecting a girl like Holly to a trial if a jury is not going to believe she's telling the truth?" "If a jury's not going to believe her?" "Why are we making that assumption?" "I watched her interviews... ..and I believed her." "And in court, how do we deal with the fact that it's on record that we DIDN'T believe her?" "We put our hand up and we say we got it wrong." "It went well." "CPS have agreed the charges we want to go for in respect of Ruby." "Really good work, Maggie." "Well done." "And the Chief Prosecutor himself has given us the green light on Holly." "We're going to trial." "Emily, can I have a word?" "Yeah, of course." "It's about Amber." "Look, I'm sorry, Maggie, but we cannot put her in a witness box." "No." "I don't believe it." "No." "She's just too volatile." "She's been through what the other girls have gone through, and more." "I know, but a jury..." "A jury can see a damaged person when there's one in front of them." "She will not go down well with a jury." "So, Holly's the right kind of victim, but Amber..." "Isn't this the kind of attitude towards young girls that created this mess in the first place?" "This is not a value judgment." "It's just a statement of fact about what the legal system demands." "We need to be strategic about calling witnesses so we can get those convictions." "We cannot have two kids contradicting and blaming each other." "The jury's heads will pop, and we will go away with nothing." "Let's credit the jury with some intelligence!" "Both of these girls were victims!" "Amber was the kind of kid whose basic human needs, um, warmth, shelter, food, drink, were being met by a kebab shop, and if she WAS in charge, if she was getting the other girls" "to dish out blow jobs, it was so she didn't have to do them all herself!" "Maggie, stop it." "You're getting too emotional." "Yeah, but isn't that exactly why I was put on this job?" "Because I'm older, I'm a mum, I'm a gran..." "Oh, I'm so bloody domestic, the girls will forget that I'm a copper and they'll trust me and they'll open up to me, and that's exactly what Amber did." "Do you know what it cost her to do that?" "And for what?" "!" "So I can go back to her and say," ""No-one's going to court for what they did to you," ""because you're coarse and you swear and you're unsympathetic."" "Sandy guaranteed that this wouldn't happen again!" "It is the job of the CPS to decide what we present at trial." "Not everybody gets their day in court, Maggie." "They're not using Amber, but they're going to use Ruby." "I'm not using anyone." "'Nine men have been charged over allegations of grooming 'and committing sexual activity with teenage girls in Rochdale." "'The men have been charged with offences including rape, 'paying for the sexual services of a child, 'trafficking a child and controlling child prostitution, 'going back to 2008.'" "Shabir Ahmed, you are charged with conspiracy to have sexual activity with a child, conspiring with others to sexually touch a child, multiple counts of trafficking, multiple counts of rape." "Nine not-guilty pleas, which means nine cross-examinations, which means nine different barristers telling these girls that every word they're saying's a lie." "Are they up to it?" "'Innocent white victims." "Dark-skinned abusers.'" "'It's uncomfortable, isn't it?" "' CROWD CHANTS" "The whole bloody country's waiting on this trial and she's up there having a lie-in!" "Where is she?" "How dare you show your face here again?" "!" "If they didn't want me to be a witness, why did they beg me to do it in the first place?" "This incident did not happen, did it, Holly?" "Yeah, it did." "It was me you trusted." "It was me you poured your heart out to and I'm sorry." "You're just going to carry on doing what you've been doing for years." "Telling the truth." "Transcribed by Uncle Andy"