"On Panorama tonight - serious questions for the Government and the City - why did our biggest bank help wealthy clients dodge tax?" "I think they were a tax-avoidance and tax-evasion service." "When the Government found out, why weren't the bank or the cheats prosecuted?" "I just don't think the tax authorities have been strong enough, assertive enough, brave enough, tough enough." "And why was the banker in charge appointed to the Government?" "I'm not prepared to make any comments on HSBC's business, past or present, I'm sorry." "I know, but you sort of have to because at the time, you were on millions of pounds and yet the taxpayer was missing out because of things you were allowing to happen." "How can you defend that?" "We have leaked files that reveal how HSBC turned a blind eye to crime." "That number of accounts?" "Flabbergasted." "And a whistle-blower who says HSBC has broken its promise to change." "They say those days are gone, do you think that is true?" "From what I've seen, no." "Tonight, we track down the millionaire tax evaders." " Was it all about tax?" " You're completely confusing me." "Let me just ask you a few questions, it's really helpful." "Were you a signatory to that account?" " I don't know what account you're talking about." " I think you do, sir." "A whistle-blower is about to steal the details of over 100,000 clients at a Swiss bank." "Herve Falciani was a computer expert at HSBC." "He goes on the run with the bank's secrets in his pocket." "The documents Falciani stole eventually ended up with the French authorities." "They've prompted investigations around the world." "Swiss bank accounts offer total secrecy." "HSBC, like many other banks, have a presence in tax havens like Switzerland." "They're private banks and they cater for the very wealthy." "You can have one of these offshore accounts legitimately, but many people use them to hide cash from the taxman." "There are very few reasons to have an offshore bank account, apart from just saving tax." "There are some people who can use an offshore account to avoid tax legally." "For others, it's just a way to keep money secret." "Panorama has now obtained the Falciani files." "They were leaked to the French newspaper Le Monde." "Now the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists has shared the documents with Panorama and the Guardian newspaper." "This is hugely, significantly probably one of the largest leaks of its kind." "It has allowed us, for the first time, and in an unprecedented way, to look inside the workings of a Swiss bank." "And this is why you should care." "When the French investigated, they suspected 99.8% of their citizens on the list were evading tax." "The sheer volume is extraordinary." "Look around." "These are just the British accounts." "There's almost 7,000 UK clients." "Billions of dollars hidden in a Swiss vault." "There are details of a further 100,000 clients from around the world." "Just to give you a sense of scale, we would need another dozen rooms of this size just to put the names on the wall." "They had 118 billion stashed offshore." "To keep the data safe, we've kept it under lock and key." "It's a snapshot of accounts from 2007, some open and some closed." "It's the detail that's incredible." "Now, there are all sorts of people in these files." "Doctors and dentists, housewives and princesses." "Some have large amounts in their accounts." "And attached to some of the accounts were notes, written by bankers." "They weren't all about tax but they discuss their wealthy clients." "Take Richard Caring, who made his fortune supplying clothes to the British high street." "His tax status allowed him to keep millions away from the taxman." "But his notes describe an exceptional transaction." "On the day Mr Caring completed a major business deal, he asked to withdraw some money." "Two days later, he turned up with a security guard to collect" "£2.25 million in cash." "When we're dealing with the kind of sums that you've mentioned, that, on the face of it, raises the red flag, because it's difficult to understand why somebody would want that amount of cash." "HSBC says it is common private-banking practice to provide customers with cash on receipt of a valid request." "But our expert says a reputable bank should not have handed out that much cash." "It throws up all kinds of issues." "You take significant amounts of cash out because you are wanting to hide it." "There can be no other logical reason." "The notes state that Mr Caring was opening an account elsewhere and he didn't want the banks to know about each other." "Mr Caring has told us there was nothing improper about the cash withdrawal and that it was authorised by three senior bank officials." "There's nothing illegal about having a Swiss bank account but we've seen evidence that shows the bank was perfectly willing to turn a blind eye to some of its clients breaking the law." "Michael Herman runs this upmarket furnishing shop in London." "Now, he's not one of the international super-rich, but his case is important." "It shows that HSBC knew he was evading tax and did nothing to stop him." "In 2007, he had just over 2 million in his Swiss account." "But Mr Herman had a problem because his bank was in Switzerland but he wanted his cash right here in London." "So, he agreed to meet his Swiss banker at this coffee shop for breakfast." "So, how do we know this happened?" "Well, back in Switzerland, Mr Herman's HSBC banker wrote up notes of the meeting." "Mr Herman had a special request - a personal delivery of cash." "The banker wrote down what Mr Herman said." ""What is the point of having money offshore" ""if one cannot have access to it?"" "The notes make it clear that Mr Herman wanted the cash transferred to the UK on a non-declared basis." "In other words, he didn't want the taxman to know." "He has failed to declare the money and, therefore, he's evading tax and therefore, he is cheating the Revenue." "The banker refused to personally deliver the money but said Mr Herman could collect it from HSBC in London instead." "I caught up with Mr Herman on his lunch break." "Mr Herman?" "Hi, it's Richard Bilton from Panorama." " Can I grab a quick word with you?" " From who?" " Panorama." "I rang you, we've written to you a few times." " No." " Can I talk to you about a couple of things?" " No." "You know that cash, it was about dodging tax, was it?" " Can you not do that?" " Why don't you just give us your side?" " BLEEP - off, you ugly bastard." "Don't be so aggressive." "No, no, we're being friendly." " You are horrible." " We've got real questions for you." " You're a shitface." " I'm not a shitface." "I just need to ask you a few questions." "You're not asking me any questions." "I just want to know why you didn't want that money..." "You wanted it back on a non-declared basis." " No, I didn't." " So you paid your tax?" "I have paid tax." "If you paid tax, then why was it..." "Why did you want it sent back on a non-declared basis?" " I didn't say that." " What did you say?" " Sorry." "Look, I'm going for my lunch now." "I don't want to talk with you." "You're a very horrible person." " I'm not a horrible person." " You ARE a horrible person." " I'm just a journalist doing my job." " Would you like to go?" " We will go." "Just give me one word to explain why you didn't want to pay tax." "Fairly big question." " Why didn't you want to pay tax?" " There isn't a..." "I did pay tax." "Mr Herman told us that he pays his taxes in full and the account was voluntarily declared to the taxman." "But he only paid up after the Falciani files were handed to the taxman and it was settled through a system set up for those who hadn't paid their tax." "Mr Herman was evading tax, and HSBC was happy to assist him." "It's the story of the Falciani files - the bank's willingness to help clients around the world dodge tax." ""As these assets with us are not declared," ""we discussed her options..."" ""These funds were not declared..."" ""His preoccupation is with the risk of disclosure" ""to the Irish authorities." ""There is no risk of that happening."" "The bank declined to be interviewed, but concedes accounts were abused." "It says, although there are numerous legitimate reasons to have a Swiss account, some individuals took advantage of bank secrecy to hold undeclared accounts." "The bank is cooperating with relevant authorities." "What's surprising is how far HSBC went to help their customers dodge tax." "To get at hidden bank accounts, a new law was introduced - the European Savings Directive, or ESD." "It was a straightforward attempt to tax hidden money." "What was the European Savings Directive?" "It's a ruling by the EU that went after cross-border investors, investors in the EU that put their money in another country and therefore..." "And didn't declare it back home." "So they wanted a law that would go after that." "The idea was that Swiss banks would take any tax owed from undeclared accounts and hand it to the taxman, so nobody would be able to evade tax." "But the Falciani files show HSBC had other ideas." "The bank helped tax dodgers stay one step ahead of the law." "We've seen a letter that HSBC sent to its clients, warning them about the European Savings Directive." "Now, instead of just informing them that they'd be deducting the tax owed, they offered their clients some different possibilities." "For the layman, what is that letter actually offering to do?" "The letter is obviously assisting their clients to get around the tax." "Simple as that." "And our bank notes show how they did it." "HSBC offered clients a range of clever ways to get around the tax that was supposed to catch tax evaders." ""The purpose of the new trust is to shelter" ""the funds from the European Savings Directive."" ""The opening of a Panamanian company for ESD reasons."" ""We informed him on the range of ESD-exempt investments."" "I think they were a tax-avoidance and tax-evasion service." "I think that's what they were offering." "They knew full well that people would come to them to dodge their tax liabilities." "HSBC denies that all of these account-holders were evading tax." "But some countries are now trying to bring the bank itself to justice." "There are ongoing criminal investigations in the US, France, Argentina and Belgium." "And yet, in Britain, where the bank is based, no such action has been taken." "The Government declined to be interviewed for this programme." "At times, the Falciani files show HSBC was prepared to break the law to help their customers." "Take the case of Keith Humphreys, a millionaire and director of Stoke City Football Club." "His family had almost 2 million in their Swiss accounts." "Mr Humphreys worked with HSBC to evade tax on some of the money and we know how they did it." "An HSBC client manager travels from Switzerland to Stoke to meet Mr Humphreys." "He's come all this way because he's bringing some incriminating documents to the family mansion." "As the banker noted, they concern one particular account." ""The distinctive feature of the 23258 account," ""among the accounts of the H family, is that it is not declared."" "The account is hidden from the taxman." "HSBC is helping them evade tax." "The bank even gave them a credit card so they could empty the account through cashpoints abroad." ""Given that there is over £280,000 still in the account," ""the family still have some way to go to achieve this objective."" "It's all there in black and white but when I phoned Mr Humphreys, he denies the family ever had an undeclared Swiss account." "The nub of it is, were there private accounts in that Swiss bank that weren't declared to the Revenue?" "Quite simply, my answer is going to be, categorically, no, absolutely not." "But our evidence strongly suggests that's not true." "So I went to the Stoke vs Chelsea game to grab a word." " Mr Humphreys." " Hello." " Hello, it's Richard Bilton," " I'm from Panorama." " Right." " Remember, I called you a few weeks ago, we talked about tax." " Right." "Did you tell me a lie in that conversation?" "I most certainly did not." "Let me just sort..." "OK." "I just need a couple of questions, though." "You know that account in Switzerland?" "Was that an account that wasn't declared?" " I'm sorry, you're completely confusing me." " It was all about tax." " Was it all about tax?" " You're confusing me." "Let me ask you a few questions, it's really helpful." "Were you a signatory to that account?" " I don't know what account you are talking about." " I think you do, sir." "Stoke lost 2-0." "A few weeks later, Mr Humphreys remembered something about the family accounts." "He now says a family member paid £147,000 to the taxman after the accounts were voluntarily declared but, once again, this was after the Falciani files were handed to the authorities." "So let's be clear what we've seen." "Britain's biggest bank was happy to help the Humphreys family evade tax." "And the bankers were breaking the law." "That would implicate the banker, as well as Mr Humphreys, in tax evasion on British soil." "They're entering into a conspiracy to cheat the Revenue because they are helping him evade his tax liabilities." "This is just the sort of tax evasion that the Government says it's cracking down on." "The message is very simple." "If you're hiding your money offshore, we are coming to get you and the criminal law is going to come and find you." "But is that really true?" "The French authorities gave the British taxman the Falciani files almost five years ago." "HMRC identified 1,100 people who hadn't paid their tax." "So, how many have been prosecuted?" "The answer is just one." "Despite having all that evidence, only one person has been prosecuted for dodging tax." "So hundreds of tax dodgers, including Mr Herman and Mr Humphreys' family, haven't been prosecuted." "They were allowed to pay back the tax instead." "HMRC says tax, interest and penalties have now been paid by those who hid their assets in Switzerland." "They've collected £135 million but that's not impressed everyone." "I just don't think the tax authorities have been strong enough, assertive enough, brave enough, tough enough, in securing for the British taxpayer the monies that are due." "Recovering cash is important but also it is crucial to deter people from evading tax in future." "This is no different, really, from any other part of the criminal law and I can't think of any other crimes on this scale that would effectively be decriminalised." "HSBC says it's conducted a complete overhaul of its private-banking business." "It has now put compliance and tax transparency ahead of profitability." "Accounts have been closed and it now has far fewer clients." "The bank says it's implemented numerous initiatives to prevent tax evasion and has placed strict controls on large cash withdrawals." "But has the bank really changed?" "Well, we found someone who should know." "She worked there when HSBC promised to put its house in order." "It was her job to make sure the bank followed the rules." "She has agreed to tell Panorama her story." "Hey, how are you?" "We know that the private bank was helping people dodge tax." "They say those days are gone - do you think that is true?" "From what I've seen, no." "The verbal messages were great but in my view they weren't put into practice, and that disturbed me greatly, so I made more and more noise about those issues." "But the more I did this, the more I clearly became annoying to management, and then I think I was punished." "She was fired after she raised her concerns in 2013 but has since won a tribunal for unfair dismissal." "Bankers inside HSBC saw compliance, saw activity that would prevent tax dodging, as something that would just get in the way of business." "I think that's why I was dismissed during my sick leave, yes." "Because you tried to make them do the right thing?" "I believe so." "I believe that with all my heart." "Yes, I do." "It sounds like the bankers just wanted to be allowed to do as they pleased." " Yeah, perhaps they think they're above the law." " Is that how it felt?" "To me, yes, it did." "So, according to Sue Shelley, HSBC was still not tackling tax dodging properly when she was unfairly fired 18 months ago." "So have the bank's bosses been held to account for HSBC's behaviour?" "Stephen Green was the top man at HSBC and also oversaw private banking." "He earned £3 million a year." "So what happened to him?" "He was invited to join the Government and appointed to the House of Lords." "MUSIC:" "Land Of Hope And Glory by Edward Elgar" "I, Stephen, Lord Green of Hurstpierpoint, do swear by Almighty God..." "So, why was Lord Green made a Minister when the Government already knew what his bank had been up to?" "..So help me God." "That's a serious allegation." "I think the Government should answer as to whether or not they knew and whether they had regard to that before they appointed him." "ALL:" "Here!" "Downing Street says they appointed the Tory Peer because of his experience and expertise." "Lord Green served as Minister of Trade and Investment until 2013." "We wanted to ask why his bank helped the wealthy evade tax." "He wrote to us and said..." "Well, it's his principles we want to talk about." "I tracked him down." "You know when you were in charge at HSBC...?" "No, I've no comment to make." "Your bankers were helping people dodge tax." "Why did you let them do that?" "As I think I've explained, I'm not prepared to make any comments on HSBC's business, past or present." "But you sort of have to because at the time, you were on millions of pounds, yet the taxpayer was missing out because of things that you allowed to happen." "How can you defend that?" "I'm sorry, I'm not prepared to make any comment on HSBC." "I think you have to, sir." "I think you have to, sir." "Let me ask you another question." "After all that had gone on at HSBC, you then got promoted to the Government, you must have been amazed." "You need to talk to HSBC, I'm sorry." "Do you think you, given what's happened at HSBC, are a fit and proper person to sit in the Lords?" "I'm sorry, as I said before, I think if you want to talk to HSBC about their business, you must talk to them." "I'm not prepared..." "But you were in charge, sir." "Why will you not tell us what you think?" "I think it's inappropriate for me to make any comment..." "The people who watch our programme, Panorama, they pay their taxes." "If they don't, they find themselves in trouble, and your bank was helping people dodge tax." "I'm sorry, I think you need to talk to HSBC about these matters." "One word, sir." "Any word?" "Anything you can say that defends what happened?" "No word." "The files Falciani stole showed a secret world where banker helped client evade tax." "But the main offender was Britain's biggest bank, which broke the law to help the wealthy and has never been punished." "HSBC insists it has completely overhauled its private bank since 2011 and has told Panorama that the problems have been sorted out."