"Jarecki:" "What do you see as the downside to sitting down and doing an interview, and what do you see as the upside?" "The downside of giving an interview is that the interviewer will take what I've said to make me look as bad as possible." "The upside is that there will be something out there from me." "I mean this whole time, since I've gotten out of prison," "I've said nothing to nobody about anything." "So, people out there have gotten very used to the fact they can say anything you want, because I'm never going to give an interview, so, it's never going to be disputed." "And, and I see that a, a lot." "Um, I will be able to tell it my way, and if somebody is reasonably open to a different story or a different, um, situation than what has been put in the media, then they'll have an opportunity to believe it." "DeGuerin:" "Anyone who knew his life story would be sympathetic." "And it's true." "He's, he had some rough times." "Um, you talk about the Poor, Little Rich Boy." "One thing that was very telling that Bob said." "He said, "You know, all my life" ""I've had more money than I could spend, and it didn't make me happy."" "[Film projector whirring]" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "♪ Sundown on the sorry day ♪" "♪ By night lights, the children pray ♪" "♪ I know you're probably getting ready for bed ♪" "♪ Beautiful woman, get out of my head ♪" "♪ I'm so tired of the same old crud ♪" "♪ Sweet baby, I need fresh blood ♪" "♪ Whoo!" "♪" "♪ Howl!" "♪" "♪ Howl!" "♪" "_" "Durst:" "I'm the oldest." "Douglas is two years younger." "I have a sister who's 4 years younger than me and I have a little brother who's 7 years younger than me." "Jarecki:" "Your memories of your time with your mother?" "Durst:" "Happy." "Happy." "Happy." "Jarecki:" "What's your first memory of that night that your mother died?" "Durst:" "My father came and got me, and he said," ""I'd like you to come on over here." "I want you to, you know, to see, see Mommy."" "[Thunder]" "And we looked out a hall window out onto the roof, and there was Mommy." "And I waved at Mommy." "I don't know that she saw me." "It never went through my mind that..." ""What is she doing out on the roof in her nightie?"" "I mean, it just didn't focus on me." ""There's Mommy." "Wave at Mommy." "Okay, now go on back to bed."" "All of a sudden I heard the maid shouting, "She's off the roof!"" "It was a long, long fall." "_" "The 4 adults who were there reported that she fell." "Whether they reported that because they didn't want to say she committed suicide, I have no idea." "I never forgot it." "I mean, it happened." "I was there." "I saw it..." "Whatever I saw." "It, it never left me." "I went to the funeral." "I mean, if you ever have an opportunity which you're better off not taking a 7-year-old child to a funeral." "That was a disaster." "People are telling me, "Ah, your mommy will be safe." "She'll be right here."" "And they're starting to lower the coffin into the ground." "And I'm going, "Wait a minute." "Mommy's in this box?"" ""Oh, yes." "She'll be right here."" ""Get Mommy out of the box!" "I don't want Mommy in the box."" "And I jumped out and tried to stop the guys from lowering this box in, into the ground." "After that, they had a big problem with me, because I would run away." "They took me to school, I would run away." "At home I would run away." "A number of times, they had to call the police to go find me." "I would just run away and go hide somewhere." "Jarecki:" "Did your dad do anything to make up for the disappearance of your mother in your life?" "Did he say, "Well, now I'm going to come home more frequently"" "or "I'm going to change..."?" "He never said that." "And he did not." "My father was not there like he should have been." "Did you confront your dad about it later on in your life?" "Oh, I confronted him with the whole thing." "You know, way back when, when I got 12, 13, 14." "What was his response?" "He wouldn't go there." "DeGuerin:" "Bob carried around with him a number of photographs from his life." "It's very touching to see what mattered to him." "He had several pictures of, uh, himself with Kathie." "He had pictures of their wedding." "_" "_" "_" "_" "Which one of those pictures is Kathie?" "Kathie?" "Oh." "This is Kathie." "That's when we lived in Hollis." "She was always nice-looking." "She had a brain." "That's the thing." "She was probably smarter than me." "[Chuckles]" "_" "Bob must have been out with his friends, and that's how she met him." "All his pick up." "The worst thing that ever happened, I think." "Really." "_" ""What did you do with her?"" "Because he's the..." "The key is with him." "Where is she, Bob?" "What did you do with her?" "Man:" "I didn't meet him right away." "I heard about him." "That he was courting her, and she was you know very..." ""swept off her feet" is the way I like to describe it." "You know, he just came on like Prince Charming." "Um, and she was basically Cinderella." "Durst:" "She thought I was good-looking in my little way." "Cute, or whatever it was." "And she was very outgoing and social, and got along with people real good." "So, it was perfect." "Because I don't get along with people." "Most people don't get along with me." "_" "Woman as Kathie:" "We met in the fall of '71." "I was living and working in New York City, whereas Bob was visiting New York City from Vermont." "Durst:" "I had this health food store in my mind and then I met Kathie." "And she, we got along great, and she was right away in favor of it." "Woman as Kathie:" "After two dates, he asked me to come live with him in Vermont, and I did, in January of '72." "My very first impression of Kathie and Bobby when I met them was that they were in love." "There was no two ways about it." "They were in love." "Woman as Kathie:" "In late March, the question of marriage came up." "Durst:" "We were as close then as we probably ever were." "Jarecki:" "Did you see yourself staying in Vermont for a long time?" "Oh, yeah." "This was it." "This is what I was going to do." "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Durst:" "Every October, we would go up to the cemetery where my mother was." "My father said, "You know, one day I'm going to be over here"..." "Pointing next to my mother." ""Please let me, when I come here, know that, that the business is being taken care of by you."" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "_" "Jim McCormack:" "I remember very early on being enamored by his family success." "The business, at that time, it was 8... it was reported in one of the, I think it was Forbes," "$880,000,000 family dynasty." "And I said, "Wow, maybe I can learn from this guy."" "And when I tried to engage him in discussions, he kind of changed the subject." "Mrs. McCormack:" "He never was friendly." "To me, I don't think." "You never could like converse with him or anything, you know." "He wasn't that friendly." "He was an oddball." "Durst:" "Kathie's mother was very interested in Bob Durst "liking me."" "And Bob Durst "conversing with me."" "Her favorite reading material was the magazine" "Yankee, a New England thing." "And she, she would want to talk to me about the articles in Yankee." "I don't know." "I'm not interested in talking about canning." "Jarecki:" "These experiences with her family were kind of like" ""Bob meets the average American family."" "Well, more than "meet."" ""Bob is forced to spend time with the average American family."" ""Bob is supposed to be polite and cooperative and pleasant, and engage in the same conversations that they are."" "And I just couldn't do that." "As we're going back in the car," "Kathie is crying, and saying, "They're all good people." ""They treated us with utmost respect." "You can just put up with it for two hours."" "Jarecki:" "Did you say, "I'll try"?" "Durst:" "I wouldn't talk about it." "Jarecki:" "If you were with Kathie's mother, what would you say?" ""I feel bad about the way I treated you."" ""That you're a good person."" ""I am complicit in Kathie's not being here."" "Woman:" "I was the last person to see Kathie in New York." "And the very first thing we did, as soon as we got through the door, she picked up the phone and phoned Bob." "And said, "I'm here with Geraldine."" "And I said to her, "Do you always phone Bob?"" "And she said, "Yes, he always wants to know where I am."" "We said to Kathie, "Don't forget." "You have to be up in the morning at 8:00."" "They were going to go up to the South Salem house." "She said she really didn't want to go." "And I said, "So, tell him you can't go."" "And she looked at me like I'd just sprouted horns." "And she said, "Are you kidding?" "He'd kill me."" "I was having a late afternoon dinner party for my family." "And Kathie really wasn't invited." "But when Kathie called me that morning and said," ""Gilberte, I need to get out of here,"" "I'm not going to tell my best friend "no."" "Everybody was getting along, and everybody was enjoying, you know." "It was just a nice evening." "And I can remember very clearly the telephone calls." "And Bobby insisting that Kathie come home and Kathie being visibly shaken after the phone calls." "She went out." "She warmed up the Mercedes." "She came back in and she said, "I'm leaving now."" "So we stood on the front porch." "She said to me, "Gilberte, promise me." ""If something happens, you'll check it out." "I'm afraid of Bobby."" "And I just said, "Kathie, of course." "You can count on me."" "It didn't even register that she was telling me that for some dreadful reason." "I just didn't get it." "Woman:" "Gilberte called me." "And she asked me if I had heard from Kathie, and I said, "No."" "And she said, "Well, I was supposed to go to the city." "I was supposed to meet her."" "Najamy:" "I was waiting for Kathie and waiting for Kathie and she never showed up." "The phone rang, and we pick up the phone and it's Bob Durst." "And his gravelly voice..." "I can still hear the voice, because he has that sound..." "He said, "Jim." "This is Bob."" "You know, words to that effect." ""Do you know where Kathie is?"" "And I was like, "Bob, I don't know where Kathie is." "You know, I'm presuming she's, she's with you."" "Schwank:" "Kathie is off the grid." "Something happened." "My name is Michael Struk." "I'm retired as a detective from the New York City Police Department." "Jarecki:" "Can you just read the details?" "Yeah." "So, when I, when I initiated the, uh, the missing persons brief narrative, it said, "The complainant, Robert Durst," ""was present at the 2-0 Precinct, Precinct Detective Unit" ""and states that his wife of 9 years," ""who is currently a fourth-year medical student" ""at the Albert Einstein Medical Center," ""has not been seen since Sunday evening," ""January 31, 1982." ""The subject is the daughter-in-law of wealthy real estate executive Seymour Durst."" "We went over the events of Sunday, January 31." "Mr. Durst stated that he and his wife had gone to South Salem Grocery Store to get a newspaper." "They came home for breakfast." "Kathie went to Gilberte's house later in the afternoon, around 3:30, 4:00." "And she utilized the Mercedes." "Kathie returned back to South Salem at about 7:30." "She had appeared to have been drinking, but that she wasn't drunk." "Mr. Durst stated that they had a sandwich together." "And then later left for the Katonah Station at about 8:30 P.M." "And according to him, it appeared that she did get on a train." "He then returned back to the house in South Salem." "As he was going to the house, he had observed his neighbor Bill Mayer." "He had a drink with Mr. Mayer." "He further stated he then went for a walk." "Later called his wife from a pay phone." "And that had occurred at about 11:00, 11:15 that evening." "She stated that she was fine, and that she was watching TV." "After the call to his wife, Durst says that he walks home and he goes to sleep." "Male reporter:" "Police are satisfied that the 28-year-old, 5' 6"" "Mrs. Durst made it to the city, and got to the couple's apartment on Riverside Drive." "The night doorman told them he saw her come in at about 11:30 Sunday night and go up to the Durst penthouse on top of the 15-story building." "Struk:" "The doorman at 37 Riverside Drive saw her arrive home that Sunday evening and go to her apartment." "Male reporter:" "And she was heard from Monday morning." "Mrs. Durst was a fourth-year medical student here at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine." "And she was to have a clinic class that morning, but she called up saying she wasn't feeling well." "Struk:" "She had called the dean of the Medical School and told the dean that she couldn't make it because she was sick." "Reporter:" "As far as police know, that's the last time that anyone had contact with her." "Good evening." "She talked on the telephone with her husband and with a supervisor at a medical center." "Then she vanished." "That was more than a week ago." "And no one has seen Kathleen Durst since." "Jim McCormack:" "She's gone." "Nobody's heard from her." "There's no crime scene." "There's no telephone activity or checking account activity." "Credit card activity." "Zero." "It's almost like "poof."" "Right off the face of the earth." "[Phone ringing on tape]" "Policeman on tape:" "2-0 Detectives Squad." "Jim McCormack on tape:" "Yeah, is Lieutenant Gibbons in?" " Policeman:" "Yeah." " He is?" " Yeah." " Can you transfer me in to him?" "This is Jim McCormack, Kathie Durst's brother." "Lt. Gibbons:" "Hey, listen, Jim." "There's two ways of viewing this thing, you know, at this stage." "And I wouldn't bullshit you." "She's either dead, or she voluntarily left." "I wouldn't be surprised as to the second, as a matter of fact." "When a guy comes in and says the wife is gone, right away, not that you're jaded about the effort that you're going to put forth, but it's like," ""Yeah, well, you know, maybe she's shacking up" ""or, or she's just tired of this guy." ""Maybe he's a, he's a, he's a banana" ""and she doesn't just want to involve herself with him anymore."" "And then she took off." "That happens all the time." "Man:" "Is there any reason at this point to suspect that she might have been killed, kidnapped, anything like that?" "No." "No." "At this point there's nothing to indicate any foul play at all." "Jarecki:" "Do you remember what he said about the state of the marriage?" "Sure, that would, that's always..." "The, the state of their marriage..." "That's, that's, that's a common question you have to ask when a spouse is reporting another spouse missing." "You know, I don't remember his exact words, but like, "Well, you know, like" ""every other family, you know, we may have occasional argument," or something like that." "_" "Jim McCormack:" "Kathie was very protective of the negatives of the relationship." "She'd always share the good things." "You know, happy to tell us about the trips and the decorating and the new house in South Salem on the lake." "But when there were issues..." "Fights, whatever..." "You didn't hear about it." "Woman as Kathie:" "Spring of '79." "We return from a party." "Both drunk." "We argued and he slapped me." "Fall of '79, we were both sober and argued about some minor issue." "He punched me, and I fell to the ground..." "Hit my leg." "The fights between them started to become more intense." "Najamy:" "With the verbal arguments and the escalating violence, when you start to put it all together after the fact, you realize that the whole thing was boiling over." "_" "I don't know." "I think she was afraid of him." "_" "Schwank:" "About two or 3 weeks into Kathie being gone," "I was really angry." "Because there was so much that wasn't being done." "So, we went down into New York City to have a meeting with Michael Struk." "I can even recall them coming from time to time with, with an entourage..." "3, 4, 5 girls." "All really relating all these incidents of violence and threats." "And they were kind of..." "Eh, you know, laissez faire about it." "They weren't about..." "You know, they didn't jump up and take notes and say, "Oh, my goodness."" "Najamy:" "I became a little annoying to a lot of people." "I became a lot annoying to some people." "Struk:" "As the case went forward after a long time, you know, a lot of these things became very redundant." ""In case something happens to me, you know, Bob did it."" "Blah blah blah." "[Typewriter keys clacking]" "_" " Excuse me, "Senior detectives."" " Senior detectives." "Schwank:" "Gilberte got onto the train at Katonah, and made the ride on the train at 9:15 going into the city." "And started asking everybody on the train if they had seen Kathie, showing them a photograph of Kathie." "Nobody had seen her." "I stood outside for shifts." "Like 5 or 6 different shifts, showing the nurses a picture of Kathie." ""Is she in there?" "Is she in there?" "Please tell me she's in there."" "And then we're going to the reservoirs and we're looking for tire tracks." "We were just so, um, motivated to find Kathie no matter what." "Anyway, Ellen became involved." "Ah." "_" ""1982." "Sunday, March 7..."" ""Midnight." "Met Gilberte." "12:00 to 12:30, drove to South Salem."" ""12:30 to 2:30, garbage escapade," I called it." "Najamy:" "I said to Ellen, "We're going to steal garbage." "You up for this?" "Yeah, let's go."" "She's my co-conspirator in crime." "She helps me steal the garbage." "Strauss:" "We parked, and I waited in the car." "I was to have the doors open so she could throw the garbage in, and then we took off." "We drove back to her kitchen." "We spread everything out on the floor." "We started sorting through it." "And that's when we find he was throwing out her clothes and her schoolbooks." "And it was like "This man knows she's not coming back."" "McInerney:" "And then we found a piece of paper in Bob's handwriting that practically brought us out in goose bumps." "Town dump, bridge, dig, boat, other, shovel or?" ", car, truck, rent." "This list was a list of things to do and how to get rid of..." "Or dispose of a body." "Struk: "Boat" or "Dig" or "Bridge" and "Shovel"..." "What does that mean to me in February of 1982?" "Um..." "What are you going to do with a shovel in February in South Salem?" "I'm sure there's frost." "You're not going to be able to dig a hole or bury somebody, if that's what we would be thinking." "Najamy:" "I was so mad and I was so sure that he had murdered Kathie and that he was going to get away with it." "I was actually stalking him." "I was standing outside the building and he came out." "And I decided, "Well, I better act like things are okay,"" "so, I come up, "Oh, Bobby!" "Bobby!"" "And I give him a hug and a kiss, and "How are you doing?" "How are you holding up?" You know?" "I could have just as easily put my hands around his neck and choked the life out of him at that moment." "Trying to get Bob to respond to any calls was near impossible." "You didn't even know where he was." "So, our family was in New York City, and we actually were able to get Seymour to pick up the phone at his townhouse." "And we got ourselves basically invited over." "We kept pressing him." ""Seymour, what can you tell us?" "How can you help?"" "And it was like, "Well, I don't know anything."" "It was like almost defensive." "I hate to use that phrase, but eh, I should use that phrase." "It was almost defensive." "There was no warmth or empathy from a guy whose daughter-in-law is missing under the strangest and most bizarre of circumstances." "And the weird thing was a son," "I think it was Tom, came in in a trench coat." "And, you know, asked his father, "What's going on here?"" "And they had a discussion that this was the McCormacks and we're looking for help on Kathie's disappearance." "And Tom said, "This discussion's over."" "Just like that." "Durst:" "If she had met some normal type guy from Long Island, she would have had a bunch of kids like her, her siblings." "And she would have lived a..." "I hate to say "normal,"" "but I don't know how else to put it..." "An average or something like that life." "It was just finding me, and then the whole, uh, scenario, it just kept getting blown up and getting worse and worse and worse and worse." "Jarecki:" "What was the dynamic between you and Kathie?" "Durst:" "I was the dominant one in the relationship." "I was making all the decisions." ""Calling all the shots," as she would say." "And, you know, she went along with that for a while, and then she just got tired of it." "She said she wants her independence." "She doesn't want me to be controlling her all the time." "Jarecki:" "Was there a dividing line when she began that change?" "Kathie first started changing from the Kathie I met when I made her get an abortion." "Woman as Kathie:" "February of '76," "I found out I was pregnant." "We used birth control and had at one time said if I was to become pregnant, I would have an abortion." "The reality of the situation, however, was problematic for me." "Durst:" "I said, "I told you from the beginning" ""I didn't want children." ""You agreed that we wouldn't have children." ""Now you're telling me you want a..." "You're pregnant," ""which, you know, you're in charge of that stuff, not me." ""And you want to keep the baby." ""Well, you keep the baby," ""you're going to get divorced from me." "Period."" "I mean, you sound like you were pretty adamant about it, and why..." "I was strictly adamant." "I just didn't want kids around." "I didn't want to raise a..." "Children." "I, I, I, somehow I thought I would be a jinx." "Jarecki:" "That you might be a jinx for them?" "Yeah." "And I, I knew I wasn't going to be a good father." "Jarecki:" "A little more than half a year after she started at medical school, she said the two of you went to a party, and that you were both drunk, and you came home and that was the first time that she remembers" "that you had hit her." "Do you remember that?" "No." "I don't remember the first time" "I had slapped her or hit her." "Jarecki:" "Do you remember other times that, that...?" "Well, yeah." "By, by 1981, our life was half arguments, fighting, slapping, pushing, wrestling." "It deteriorated from there on." "It never got better." "It got worse and worse." "Jarecki:" "So, the night that she disappeared, that Sunday night, or the last night that you saw her, do you want to just take me through what you remember happening that night?" "She's going to Gilberte's for a party." "She's taking the car." ""Do I want to come?"" "Not, "Do you want to go to Gilberte's for a party?"" "but "I'm going to go, and I'm taking the car." "You can come if you..." "Yeah, you want to come?"" ""No, I don't want to come."" "That was the weekend." "I didn't like that at all." "She gets back from Gilberte's maybe 7:00 or whatever." "Angry at me." "Loaded." "And announcing that she wants to go to the city." "I said, "You can go to the city if you want," ""but you, you know, you can't drive because I'm not going to go to the city."" "And she says, "No, I'm taking the car."" "And I went and got the keys out of the car, and told her she's not taking the car because I'm not giving her the keys." "That was an argument." "Jarecki:" "Was that argument just a verbal argument?" "No, that was a pushing/shoving argument." "Jarecki:" "And so, eventually, she capitulated and she agreed to take the 9:17?" "Durst:" "At the last minute." "At first, well, she just wasn't answering her calls." "But she was doing a subintern in the hospital, which involves staying over a lot of nights." "And I wasn't worried." "It wasn't until I got a call from the medical school, and she hadn't been in classes for several days." "And I thought, "I've got to do something."" "I went and I talked to my father and my brother Douglas, and they all said," ""You know, you two have been having" ""all these arguments all these years." ""She's probably just over there or over there." ""You go and report it to the police," ""they're not going to do anything," ""but you're going to get all this press dealing with the family."" "They discouraged me from reporting it to the police until it got to be Thursday night." "And then I just felt like "I'm worried." "This is what I should do." And I did it." "On my own, I called the 20th Precinct." "Jarecki:" "Going into the police station when you..." "Durst:" "I hated it." "I didn't want to do it." "The idea of talking to them, and the idea of trying to convince them..." "Because they at first didn't want to hear about it." ""Got any problems in the marriage?"" ""Yes."" ""Well, don't you think she probably just took off?" ""I mean, obviously, things weren't good." "She blah blah," like that." "And I said, "Except for medical school." "She's not going to take off and not graduate."" "Struk:" "I can't really say that at that point in my initial meeting that I could detect that he was lying on anything he said to me." "Because his story was, was, was fairly logical as he laid it out." "Mayer:" "New York City Police had some reason to believe that" "Bobby had taken her to the train station and possibly come back here for a drink." "He just, I assume, fabricated that story, without ever coming here for a drink, nor even discussing with us in any way." "So, he didn't ask us to lie for him." "He just, I guess, kind of fibbed for himself." "_" "_" "_" "_" "Yeah, well, what is it?" "It's, it's an inconsistency." "It's not..." "Mayer could be wrong, too." "So, I, you know, I mean, really at that point, it's just another little piece that you have to kind of plug in the back and, um, and go forward." "Jarecki:" "You told Detective Struk that the Sunday night that you last saw Kathie, you had dropped her off at the station" "And then you went to the Mayers' for a drink." "The neighbors." "Yeah, that's what I told the police." "I was hoping that would just make everything go away." "I didn't go to the Mayers'." "I took her to the train station, went home, and went to sleep." "And why, why would that have made everything go away?" "I don't know." "I'm at the Mayers'." "They wanted to hear, "What did you do?" ","" "so, I told them I did that." "I, I just never got through my mind... it was like a negotiation." "You tell somebody something, and, well, that's it." "They don't go back there." "They don't look for motive." ""Why is he telling me this?" kind of thing." "I thought that would get them to, you know, leave me alone, accept the missing person, like that." "Jarecki:" "There was some discussion about..." "That you spoke to her at some point." "Durst:" "Yes, yes." "That was the last part of my, you know, "The police are going to leave you alone now."" "I say, I said, "I called her."" "And I said, "I stopped at a pay phone on the way home."" "Or "I went out for a walk later," ""and I, and I called her from the pay phone." ""She answered the, the phone." "And that puts her in the city."" "And they were going to leave me alone now." "Did you end up speaking to her that night?" "No." "Jim McCormack:" "We really did trust the police and the procedure, and you know, admittedly it failed." "Failed Kathie." "_" "Schwank:" "I felt very, very angry, frustrated, stonewalled, in being able to get Bob." "Bob got away with murdering Kathie." "He got away with it." "Struk:" "There's no corpse." "We don't even have a crime scene." "No corpse, no crime scene." "We got..." "This is a missing persons case." "Najamy:" "I really believe that some way, somehow, somebody's going to come and tell me what happened to Kathie." "And if I don't get that, I'll sit there as an old woman wondering what I did wrong, and how I let my friend down." "Because I need to know." "I need to know what happened to Kathie."