"Tonight on Dragons' Den..." "Do you want to be a niche player for the rest of your life or do you want to make money?" "Clearly, you want Sarah." "I'm out." "I can absolutely see tens of thousands of these being sold." "Do you know what?" "I can't work out if this is completely bonkers or there's a moment of brilliance." "You have done an appalling job of selling them online." "Really appalling." "I'm willing to give you all the money, but I want 35%." "Your valuation is absolutely ludicrous." "Welcome to Dragons' Den, open for business once more." "And first to face the fire of the Dragons are a transatlantic duo," "John Burke and Jon Hulme." "They've combined business with pleasure and, in doing so, think they've spotted a gap in the lucrative home drinks market." "So will they be raising a glass, or drowning their sorrows after their encounter with the Dragons?" " Good luck, buddy." " Let's do it." "We met in Spain, in business school, where we spent a lot more time in the gin and tonic bars than we did in class." "And, ever since, we've wanted to start a business together." "We really like Sarah Willingham, because of her background in cocktails." "I could use one of those after this." "I could use one right now!" "Hello." "Our names are John and Jon, and we are here today to ask you for" "£75,000 in return for a 3% stake in our business, Craft Clubs Limited." "Our mission is to reinvent the way that drinks lovers discover and enjoy new drinks." "The drinks industry is changing." "More people are drinking at home, and they're choosing quality over quantity." "They're seeking out new products from craft producers and are left underwhelmed by what's in the supermarket." "At the same time, the number of craft producers is booming, but they have limited marketing budgets and are often left undiscovered." "Craft Clubs is launching alcohol subscription clubs to connect these craft producers with the home market." "Every month, we partner with one distillery and we send their gins to our club members, along with our monthly magazine, and special treats that go in the box that tell the story of the gin." "Sounds fantastic, John, but how does all of that translate into numbers?" "Well, our business has been cash flow positive since day one." "In our first year, we acquired 3,225 members and turned over £481,000." "We're growing quickly." "Our current revenue run rate stands at £1.2 million and will reach £2.7 million at the end of this year." "Our goal is to deliver a ten times return on your investment." "We've got some really delicious craft gin and tonics for you to try and some surprise Gin of the Month boxes for you to open, so let's get those served." "Confident talk from London-based business partners John Burke and" "Jon Hulme, who are looking for an investment of £75,000 in their craft gin subscription business." "You've all got a different month's gin with a different month's magazine, and a few extra treats we've thrown in, too." "But as they're only prepared to give 3% of their business away, to secure investment, they'll need the Dragons to subscribe to their hefty £2.5 million company valuation." "(It's really good.)" "But the gin isn't proving much of a tonic for Touker Suleyman." " Jon, John." " Yes?" " I'm not a big drinker of gin, actually." "Erm..." "It gives me a headache." " Just to get my head around it, I join for £40 a month..." " Mm-hm." "..and I get one of those boxes for free?" "You could look at it that way, but it's essentially every time you get a gin box, you're charged £40." " So if I'm a 12-month member, I'll get 12 boxes from you." " Correct." "Why alcohol?" "How did you get to alcohol?" "Why wasn't it a chocolate club or a whatever club?" "Well, we met in Madrid," " which is the home of the great gin and tonic..." " Right." "..and we definitely shared a few of those there, and then we were in a pub in London." "Behind the bar was about 40 craft gins." "We knew it was a hot sector." "I said, "Come on, John, no matter how bad a job we do of it," ""we'll probably do OK, because gin's just going crazy", and I think we've done better than that." "The life of a bottle of gin, depending on how much you drink, is about a month in a normal family?" "That's kind of the goal, yeah!" " LAUGHTER" " It depends." "I mean..." "Touker, when you say "family", does that depend on how much your children drink?" "LAUGHTER" "So far, so convivial, but the Den is no place for bonhomie." "Online greetings card pioneer Nick Jenkins now wants to get to the bottom of their mark-up." "Tell me about the gross margins in the business." "OK, well, we enjoy gross margins of 24% on our box, but that is the cost, that's the fully loaded cost, so that includes the gin and the extras that go into the box," "the cardboard, the packaging, the shipping costs, the pick and pack costs." "A box costs about £26 for us to put together and ship to a customer and we charge about £34." "OK, so that's..." "It's pretty lean." "After the end of year five, what do you reckon it's going to be making?" "Year five, we should make at least £2 million in net profit, so a few months into that, we should be getting towards £2.5 million." "Impressive projections from the business school buddies, but it appears that a hangover is setting in in Peter Jones's corner of the Den." "I just wonder how much alcohol you've been consuming recently." "Your valuation is absolutely ludicrous." "You know the market really, really well." "You're seriously credible." "I don't think you're delusional." "Why are you cheeky enough to come in here and value a business like this at over £2 million?" "Yeah, I mean, I..." "W-We're very confident that, even at that valuation in five years' time, we'll find that exit that'll deliver a ten-times return" " on your investment, uh..." " I don't doubt that." "If you produce a company" " that's going to generate £2.5 million profit..." " Mm-hm." "..and it's got a subscription base," "I think you could sell that for £25 million," " so...tick in the box." " OK." "But it's not right that you come in and say your business is worth what it is." "I actually think it's pretty unfair." "So, the number that you've come in here is non-negotiable?" "We didn't say that." "Our absolute preference would be, walk out of here with a deal today." "Crisis averted - as the entrepreneurs hint at wiggle room in the 3% equity they're prepared to part with, but have they done enough to keep Touker Suleyman circling?" "Guys, where is your offices, by the way?" "It's at Tottenham Court Road." " And what are you paying there for a space?" " 420 a desk, fully loaded." "So if I gave you free desks in my office, you'd be happy, would you?" " In Edgware Road?" " Yeah." " No charge." " That'd be very nice." "I'm going to make you an offer, guys." " I'm going to give you all the money for 35%." " Brilliant." "Thank you." "Let's start the ball rolling." "35%." "An unexpected and audacious bid for the business from Touker Suleyman, who, despite throwing in the use of his office for free, is asking for almost 12 times what the entrepreneurs want to part with." "But how serious are they to cut a deal?" "Peter Jones wants to cut to the chase." "What's the most you'll give away today, equity?" "To be honest with you, just to be transparent, I mean, we discussed that we would, erm, want to give up 5% of the company for that." "Thanks for flushing that out, Peter, because, erm..." "You're great." "You couldn't fault you two, but why would I get involved in your business for 5%?" "Why would I do it?" "When I can put my money in so many places?" "I think..." "Hope..." "Erm..." "I guess our thinking would be that the ten times return on that investment, regardless of the...the equity stake, would be worthwhile." " It's a bit early on that journey." " What percentage would...?" "Well, you've just said the top percent of 5% and, really," "I'm not going to be terribly interested in that, either." "So I won't be investing." "It's a shame." " It is a shame." " It is a shame." " It's a real shame." " I won't be investing." "What would interest you?" "Well, I was going to make you an offer..." "..and it would have been at 10%." "OK." "So, are you making an offer, Deborah?" "Actually, yes." "I'll make you that offer." "I'm making that offer." "A dramatic U-turn from a Dragon just seconds away from declaring herself out." "Deborah Meaden joins Touker Suleyman in tabling an offer." "So far, drinks doyenne Sarah Willingham, who made her millions in global restaurant franchises, has stayed silent on the sidelines." "But she has an ace up her sleeve." "I-I'm going to have to blow my cover." " I am one of their customers." " Oh, are you?" " Ah!" " Yes, I can't believe it!" "You never know what is going to walk into the Den." " I absolutely love it." " Oh, thank you." "Your business model, it's so straightforward and I think the craft market in alcohol itself is...is massive." "But your valuation is so far for me." "I mean, even at Deborah's 10%," "I've got to be honest, I'm..." "I'm more 15%... and, at 15%, I am so excited." "Hmm." "So, all of the money for 15%." "Three Dragons have now made offers, but all three want a different share of the business." "Deborah Meaden is asking for 10%." "Sarah Willingham is holding out for 15%." "And Touker Suleyman is asking for a substantial 35% of the company." "Will Nick Jenkins want to join the party?" "I think if you had come in here in six months' time, having proved what you'd done, then I would be a lot more confident about that valuation." "So, I wish you all the best of luck and I might well subscribe to it," " but I'm afraid I'm out." " OK." " I think you two are brilliant." " Thank you." "My issue is that it's the valuation that you've applied to the company." "But I like this type of market, and I think I could add a lot of value to this for you." "HE EXHALES" " So that's the reason why I'm going to make you an offer." " OK." "I'm going to offer you all of the money..." "..for 10%." "Peter Jones goes head-to-head with Deborah Meaden for a 10% slice of the subscription box business." "Sarah Willingham is using her drinks industry credentials to push for more equity in the company... but, with fierce competition, is a change of tactics on the cards?" " I'm going to go halves." " OK." " I'm going to do 12.5%." " OK." " You want to have a little chat about it?" " Take it to the wall?" " Right, showtime, Jonny." "What do you think, buddy?" " Er, well..." "With four offers on the table and Dragons jockeying for position, the entrepreneurs have the upper hand in the Den." "(Shall we try and get Sarah down to ten?" "(And if she doesn't, shall we take 10% from...) (That might insult him at that point," "(but I wouldn't mind having him on board.)" "HE CHUCKLES" " Er..." " HE CLEARS HIS THROAT" "It's great to have two offers at 10%." "Sarah, you're a bit of an outlier at 12%." "Is there any way..." "I mean, it's very difficult for us to accept an offer at 12.5% when we have offers on the table at 10, so our first question to you would be, would you be prepared to match the 10%" "that these two have on the table?" " SHE SIGHS" " You're killing me." " Please." " Erm..." "What do you think that makes an investor feel like?" "When-When you're asking us to commit to you and do..." "And change your business?" "We just wanted to make sure that we're making a decision between..." "No, you're very good, but I won't believe that." "I'm sorry." "Clearly, you want Sarah." "So I'm out." " That wasn't necessarily..." " Can I just say?" "I'm out." "Some seriously ruffled feathers as the Den's longest-serving Dragons turn on their heels and walk away from a deal." "But Touker Suleyman's offer of 35% and Sarah Willingham's significantly lower 12.5% still stand, though both are substantially more than the 3% the entrepreneurs were originally willing to give away." "Will they keep on fighting?" "I mean, we feel that 10% is as far as we can move our 3%." "If we can go to 10%, then we have a deal." "I am 12.5%." "I've already..." "I feel like I've already come down." "I sat early on and wrote down 15%." " Let's do a deal." "We can't wait to have you on board." " Yes!" "Oh, that's brilliant." "I am really excited." " We're excited to have you." " Really excited." "You can join our tasting team." "Oh, a lifetime of craft gin just opened up!" "I love it." "Thank you, guys." "After a roller-coaster ride of a pitch, the gin-loving entrepreneurs leave with £75,000 and with a drinks expert Dragon on board." " HE SIGHS" " Gave up a lot of that company." " Fives?" "We've got a great Dragon." "We should be very happy." "We didn't get the valuation we wanted, but we're paying for..." "We're paying for the expertise." "How do you feel about being not their...their real favourite?" "What do you mean?" " Well, it was a default, wasn't it?" " Default, yeah, yeah, yeah!" "Next to enter the Den, two entrepreneurs who aren't afraid to mix their metaphors." "We are in something of a race and we know that people might try and do this and it's a bit like we are on a race between London and Edinburgh and we are on the M1 and we are ahead," "we are in Watford, and that's great." "The only slight problem is, we are in a 1962 Mini with 56 horsepower and in my rear-view mirror," "I can see the Ferraris putting their tyres on in London, so what we need is more horsepower." "But will Ross Williams and his business partner Surlender Pendress cruise through the interrogation, or hit the skids?" "So, to business." "Hello, Dragons." "My name is Surlender and this is Ross." "We are here to ask you for an investment of £50,000 for a 12.5% share in our company." "If you bear with us, we will reveal all about our product very shortly." "I'm going to hand you over to Ross." "Thank you for your time." "What we want to show you today is something we have created based upon two things - maths and logic." "So, what is the product?" "Can I deal with the logic first?" "I already have two other small companies and in those companies," "I've been looking at scale drawings of buildings for the last 20 years and it is scale that we draw the logic from." "What's interesting is...this." "You are all holding one." "We don't think of a pen as a hand tool, but that's exactly what it is." "We may get richer and buy bigger cars and bigger houses, we don't buy a longer one of these." "It is the perfect-sized tool for our hand." "If I can show you this..." "Would anybody use a pen of this size?" "I don't think so, it's not the right-sized tool." "We also use this tool - a pencil." "We use it often, but actually it's not the tool we choose to use." "If it were, pens would be that length, but they are not." "This is the maths." "But here's the thing." "When you have a child who is five years old, they are about 55% the size of us and when you give them this to learn to write with, to them, it will actually feel like this because of scale." "This is the right-sized tool for us and these are the tools that we've made." "Oops." "Write Size pencils makes learning to write easier." "Learning to write is a fundamental learning block of education." "Thank you for listening to us, we welcome any questions and I'd like to bring some products over to you, if that's OK." "Passionate about pencils are West Midlands-based business partners" "Ross Williams and Surlender Pendress" "They are asking for £50,000 in return for a 12.5% stake in their children's stationery business." "You will find some normal pencils in there as well, so you can see the difference." "But is the business proposition they are offering promising or pointless?" "Peter Jones wants to get to the nub of the matter." "Why?" "Why do it?" "Why would you want to buy different sized pencils?" "It's scale." "They don't have the same size shoes, they don't have the same size anything and this is a tool, a craftsmanship..." "We forget this, learning to write is a craftsmanship..." "No, Ross, I see your salesmanship, but what..." "They are smaller people, Peter." "No, I understand that." "I'm questioning why." "Because for a century, at least, our children have had not an issue with this thought and my children, all five of them, have never said, "Dad, I can hardly lift this pencil!"" "So I don't get why you would go to all of this expense to choose to buy a smaller pencil just because your child is six." "But..." "Peter..." "In every adult profession where somebody learns a dextrous skill, we give them the tools to fit their hands." "All tools fit our hands." "They are adult tools." "Yes, but I'm not teaching my five-year-old to be a calligrapher." "Peter Jones puts a black mark against the pencil pitch." "And now Nick Jenkins has a point to make." "What I slightly struggle with, although I realise that I have been unable to read my own writing and the reason is that I probably started with a pencil that was just too long, but it's amazing that no-one else has thought of this." "Very often, you think, "Why hasn't anyone looked at this before?"" "It isn't that people haven't looked at it, they probably looked at it and thought it wasn't worthwhile." "There are lots of things, like dog nappies, why hasn't anyone ever come up with dog nappies before?" "Probably have, decided it wasn't worthwhile." "Do you know what, I can't work out if this is completely bonkers or...there is a moment of brilliance, where, actually, marketed right, are you going to get loads of mums buying lots of different-sized pens for different-aged kids?" "Unique or useless, the pint-sized pencils are certainly giving the Dragons plenty to ponder." "But there is a grey are that Touker Suleyman wants to explore." "Why grey?" "You are catering for children." " Yes." " They love colour." "Why have you got to have them all grey looking, quite industrial?" "It shows that they are not colouring pencils, these are pencils made to improve the ability of a child to learn to write, to give them the best-sized tool you can give them, to take it more seriously." "You've moved from "why" to "why grey"." "I think we are still on "why"!" "DRAGONS LAUGH" "Has there been any concrete research to back this up, that you can then demonstrate...?" "If there has, you are walking into every school in the country." " Yes." " Well, when we were in Dubai, we were at an education show and 120 teachers bought them for their own children." "But where is the research that shows that children are better writers" " as a result of having a smaller pen?" " As I said at the start of the pitch, it can only be based upon the logic of the fact that if the tool fits the person's hand, will it be easier for them to learn that skill?" " So, it hasn't been tested?" " It can't be tested." "Well, of course it can be tested!" "That's what people do when they come up with a prototype or with an idea." "They might research it or test it." "You don't..." " We have children who love..." " We have tested them on parents, you know, the parents who bought them for their children." "We have gone into the schools and the schools loved them." "A lack of concrete research is threatening to put a line through the pencil proposition." "And now Deborah Meaden wants to get to the bottom of Ross and Surlender's sales." "How do these compare, price-wise, to, you know, buying standard pencils?" "They are £3.99 a packet." "That feels quite expensive to me." "So, who have you shown them to in the UK?" "At the moment, Ryman is looking at how many shops they can put them into in time for back-to-school this year, but, you know, they are driving a hard bargain, it's a new product, they want them on SOR, which we are happy to do," "but that's all we've got to in the UK so far." " OK, and that's sale or return?" " Yes." "That doesn't say to me that there's an awful lot of confidence in that product." "A product unproven in the marketplace rarely goes down well in the Den and it appears that online expert Nick Jenkins has made up his mind." "If you put this in front of parents, they will probably look at them and think, "I've never thought of that, better have them."" "Unfortunately, the issue I have with it is the amount of sales effort that it takes to get something into a chain of stores when you've just got the one product is... quite huge and I think that might impact" "on the success of the business, so I sort of see the point, but I think it's a bit too narrow, so I'm afraid I'm out." " PETER JONES:" " There is one thing that you could speak to any stationer in the world and say that they never ever get worried about and that is the stock of pencils." "I think there is a fundamental flaw with your business." "You are introducing a product that will just sit on a shelf and that is a problem." "So, I'm going to say it's not for me, I'm out." " DEBORAH MEADEN:" " Do you know, I don't think it's crazy." "I actually can see that there is definitely something in it." "But...it's not proved at the moment and I don't think it's a premium product." "I'm not going to be investing, I'm afraid." "I'm out." "Three Dragons have now left the negotiations." "Will high street retail magnate Touker Suleyman be the man to take Write Size to the masses?" "To launch that worldwide, as you are talking, the 50,000 that you are asking for won't cover the stock, the marketing, the online, the... in running the business." "We already have 30,000 units in stock." "I've just sent over 3,000 units to Dubai..." "Right, but then the 50,000 is not enough for your marketing." "You know?" "You probably need half a million, so on that basis, I'm not going to invest." "I'm out." "With four Dragons out and just one remaining, is the writing on the wall for the pencil entrepreneurs?" "Millionaire mum-of-four Sarah Willingham has yet to declare." "Does she think the petite pencils are investible or illogical?" "As I said earlier, I think it's..." "I can't quite decide whether or not it's just... it's so bonkers that people would buy it." "I do think you will sell some." "I really do." "I think somebody will take it," "I think you will be that kind of guilt purchase that we make and I can see mums buying it." "But I just can't see it being mass-market unless there really is concrete evidence that kids are better off with a smaller pencil and I think that is a lot of money that needs spending, it's a lot of marketing and it is A LOT of PR." "I just think it's too big a hurdle, so I'm afraid it's not an investment for me, so I'm out." " NICK:" " Thanks, good luck." " Thank you." "In the end, the Dragons decided that half-sized pencils is a half-baked business idea and the two entrepreneurs leave with nothing." "I don't understand." "Never mind." "If I only get half the world's population of parents that have to buy pencils for their children in the future," "I'm only going to sell about a billion... ish." "Still to come on tonight's show... beanbags... and boot cleaners." " How are you finding it, Nick?" " Therapeutic." "But will either business get the Dragons to bite?" " 250,000...pounds?" "!" " Yes." "How much?" "!" "That's a lot of fish and chips you must have sold." " Can I have a look at the bag?" " Of course you can." "I wonder whether... ..three Dragons... could give this exactly what this needs." "Next to enter the Den is former market trader Mark Yewman from Essex who is looking to bring a Dragon outsider into his tight-knit but chilled-out family firm." "Pitching to the Dragons can be a lonely business, but there are often others who stand to benefit from a potential Den investment." "Mark's two children, who are both employees in the company, will be watching the pitch unfold from our new reaction room, so with hearts in mouths and fingers crossed, it's time for Mark to face the Dragons." "It's a family business, which we all take part in." "And, yeah, we work hard, but it's not all about money, it's more down, for me, quality in life." "I think I was a really young man, in my youth, when you realise that money is not the be-all and end-all to everything." "23-year-old Alex and 25-year-old George are also hoping for new fire in the family enterprise." "Love you, Papa." "But will their laid-back dad have enough drive for the Dragons?" "He's been driving everyone mad, walking around the house, repeating it over and over again." "I'm actually really nervous for him." "I'm glad I'm sitting here, really, and I get to watch from the sidelines!" "My heart is actually pounding for him." "Good evening, Dragons." "My name is Mark Yewman." "I've come here today to give you an opportunity to invest £75,000 in a 15% share of my brand, BigBoy Beanbag." "Approximately eight years ago," "I decided my small design studio needed a bit of an update and the two things I always craved as a kid was a Chopper bike and a beanbag." "Unfortunately, I had to accept that, at my time of life," "I was never going to look any good on a Chopper any more, but I could still buy myself a beanbag." "So I found a particular brand." "When it arrived, I just didn't like the fabrics used, it was slippery, it was slidy and then when I went to sit on it, it offered no structural support at all, it was very unstable." "And then I discovered that it couldn't be used outside because it wasn't waterproof, it wasn't UV protected, it couldn't be machine washed either." "So, I thought to myself," ""You know, I could do better than this,"" "so I spent the next few months experimenting with modern fabrics, different fillings and then we have the product here today." "We've run the business very much like a cottage-style industry." "But we've still managed to sell around about 24,000 units, which equates to roughly £2.7 million." "Em..." "Keep going." "My main part of this pitch is to get you to have a try because it's the product which sells itself, I like to think, so if you would be kind enough, at some stage, to give it a try," "that would be fantastic, Dragons." "A pitch with bags of charm from laid-back family man Mark Yewman." "Just sit on the front edge..." "Whoops!" "He's looking for a £75,000 investment for 15% of his BigBoy Beanbag business." "OK, OK." "With the formality of the pitch over, this one-time market trader is back in his comfort zone, but for how long?" "What's with the scarf?" "Do you know what?" "You've got to stand out sometimes." " ALEX LAUGHS" " I love an accessory!" "I don't wear ties, to be honest with you." "No, no, it does..." "It's quirky." "It covers my belly up a little." " Mark?" " Yes?" " I'd like to understand a bit more about the business." " Of course." "How long have you been going for?" "With this product, approximately eight years." " OK." " Just under." "And in that time, you've had £2.7 million worth of turnover?" " Yes." " In that time?" " 24,000 units." "OK, so let me understand, where are you at the moment?" "So, what was the last year, for example?" "This year, which was finished in July, we were turning over about half a million." "OK." "And what is your margin?" "Em..." "Our margin..." "Manufacturing costs about £35 per unit." " Delivered?" " No." "Including delivery and packaging, about £15, just under." " So, 50 quid?" " Yes." " All in, per unit, delivered." "And what are you selling them for?" "We roughly average at about £113 per unit." "I want to take this to a wider market, but I'm just a dyslexic barrow boy." "I can't take it any further than that." "So, really, I'm here, not so much for the investment, but for your ability to open up the market and take the product to the next stage and hopefully beyond." "Unfortunately for the self-proclaimed dyslexic barrel boy, a financially forensic Deborah Meaden wants to dig deeper into those numbers." "You've been around a long time." "I would be very interested to understand" " what your balance sheet looked like." " Em..." "This will be tough." "Money at the bank?" "Balance sheet, so what is your turnover at the top versus what is your net worth at the bottom?" "Right, em..." "Sorry, forgive me." "Em..." " That is quite scary." " She is scary!" " What..." " Let's help." " So, your turnover is about half a million." " Yes." "And how much stock have you got?" "At this current time... erm... £150,000 worth?" "At retail or cost?" " Cost." " At cost, OK. 150,000." "Sorry, let me just..." "Forgive me one second," "I don't want to give you some false information." " Yeah." " Em..." "No, about 220 at retail." "Oh, this bit is nerve-racking!" "OK, so, do you have premises?" "We have..." "We have premises, but we've run it, again, like a cottage-style industry, our rents are very, very low." "We keep a very tight ship." "And who is we?" "Myself, my partner of 30 years and my two children." "Oh, right, so it is a real family business?" "A proper family business, yeah." "Good." "The beanbag businessman survives Deborah Meaden's interrogation of his figures, but global outsourcing supremo Touker Suleyman is concerned that his cottage-industry set-up is lacking in ambition." "Do you want to be a niche player for the rest of your life, or do you want to make money?" "I..." "I have a very nice quality of life, don't get me wrong." " OK." " Money doesn't bring happiness, as I'm certain we all realise, but I would like to be in a better position and I genuinely believe this is a product which merits..." "Nobody is querying the product." "My only thing is, if I'm going to invest my money," "I need to know that I can grow the business, so all I'm saying is you look a little bit laid-back..." "I am very laid-back." " I can see that." " I live in a lovely house," "I get to drive a nice car, I've got a fantastic family." "It's not necessarily all about the money for me, it is about you being able to move the product forward." "An entrepreneur unmotivated by money is a red rag to a Dragon." "Nick Jenkins, who built an online business empire worth a cool £120 million, has some home truths to dish out." " Mark?" " Yes." "I'm all for quality of life and taking a relaxed approach to life, that's fine, but don't bring investors in because investors will encroach on your quality of life because they might ask you awkward questions," "like when are we going to get a dividend, when are we going to improve sales, when are we going to pull our finger out and try and catch up with our competitor?" " I actually don't want to watch this, this is..." " No, don't be a wimp!" "I really don't think that you would appreciate having an investor putting the kind of pressure on you to do it, or even worse, you are just expecting one of us to come and run your business for you..." " No, I..." " In which case, I'm certainly not doing that." "But also, I'm just staggered." "You have done an appalling job of selling them online, really appalling..." "..which goes to show you are just not terribly good at it." "I won't be coming in to help you run your business, so I'm out." "A dramatic turn in the Den, as an irritated Nick Jenkins decides he has heard enough and bails out of the beanbag pitch." "Will Peter Jones go any easier on the Essex entrepreneur?" "So, what is the potential for this business?" "Because it seems that you have been pretty flat and that resembles, very much, your character." "I'm really just a market trader." "Never say JUST a market trader!" "Some of the best businesspeople I know have come through market trading." "He's done well." "Very proud!" "Do you want to grow this, or do you want to..." " Are you quite happy with life?" " No." "Well, I am happy with life at the moment, but I don't feel I'm doing this particular product justice." "I have to say, I think the product is brilliant." "Thank you." "But you've got this whole family piece in, which I think is a major, major thing and having invested, in the Den, in businesses that are family-related as well," "I've seen firsthand what happens after a year or two, and the reality is the family really focusing on what they want rather than what an investor would want and it becomes a real conflict of interest and I don't want to be part of that." " Why do they hate us?" " I don't know, but I feel like we'll get fired." "I don't know what I've done for them to hate me!" "So, I'm going to say I'm not going to invest, Mark, and say that I'm out... but I'm certainly going to be a customer." "Mark, I know where I am as well and I..." "I'm just not feeling it." "Do you know, I've possibly given my impression of being a bit too laid-back in my persona." "There's something... and I don't know what it is, but as an investment," " I'm really sorry, but..." " It's all right, no need to apologise." "No, it's not for me." "I'm out." "That's OK, thank you." "Sarah Willingham becomes the third Dragon to bin the beanbags." "Touker Suleyman loves the product, but can he see beyond the low-energy presentation?" "I'm just concerned." "You said, "I don't need the money, I don't..."" "You are very sort of, you know, it's like you... you want a magic wand to say, "Let's just grow the business,"" "so, I'm going to give you 30 seconds of Touker Time to tell you I think you should bring somebody in to do that job that a Dragon would do." " Yes." " You can buy expertise without giving up equity and keeping the business within the family." "If I got involved, I'd say to you," ""You've got your children, have you ever thought about kicking them out," ""get them to get a job," ""and employing somebody who could take it to the next level?"" "He's killing me, I'm not even there!" "Very difficult." "It's a family business." "If there are tough decisions, I don't want to be the one that is going to put a wedge between your family and, for that reason, I'm not going to invest." "I'm out." "No, that's fine." "Thank you." "Four Dragons out." "Just Deborah Meaden remains." "With a portfolio of investments in textile-based companies, has she seen a business opportunity that the others have missed?" "This is a really difficult one because I like this." "I'm not buying that you are laid-back, either." "You got the product together, you are selling half a million a year." "You know, having a nice relaxed way about life doesn't mean to say that you are not on it, so I don't..." "That doesn't worry me at all." "What does worry me is that there's kind of no endgame." "It feels to me like you have a nice family business that you will probably want to carry on working in for a long time and that is a worrying thing for me as an investor." "Em..." "Ohh..." "Come on." "Come on!" "I'm not going to do it." "I'm really sorry, Mark, but I won't be investing." "I'm out." "That's fine, thank you." "Thank you very much." "Good luck!" "Poor Papa." "With five noes, the stuffing has fallen out of Mark Yewman's beanbag pitch..." "Family business killed it." "..and the easy-going Essex entrepreneur leaves the Den without the £75,000 investment he was hoping for." "MARK SIGHS" "The truth about family businesses, and Peter is absolutely spot-on, is that when they don't want to do what you want them to do, they glue together and there is absolutely nothing you're going to be able to do about it." " Oh, Daddy!" " Well done, mate." "You done so well." "Yeah, he did do well." " It was brutal." "You're both sacked, by the way." " I know!" "The final entrepreneurs to face the Dragons also have a family business." "London-based fish and chip shop owner Rashpal Dhillon is here with her two sons, Arminder and Gurminder." "The dragons have already rejected one family business tonight." "Will this mother-and-son set-up get the same short shrift?" "If we pull it off, the rewards will be amazing." "Hi, I'm Gurminder." "Hi, I'm Arminder." "Hi, I'm Rashpal." "We are the Boot Buddy." "We are here today pitching for £60,000 in return for 10% equity in our company." "So, here in my hands," "I have the home-made prototype of the Boot Buddy." "The idea came one day after football training when I decided there had to be an easier way to clean my muddy football boots, so when I got home that day," "I fiddled about with some items we had - the first being the brush, the second being a plastic water bottle and the third being a plastic knife." "When I stuck these three items together, we had a prototype which sort of worked." "Now we have our own proper Boot Buddy in one compact, portable gadget." "OK, so, the scraper here is to take off all the big chunks of mud, so what you do is - you unscrew it, you fill up with water, take the Boot Buddy with you wherever you might be going," "whether it is football, walking the dog or playing golf, then, when you wish to use it, unlock the head and then that's it - away you go." "So, as you can see, what you have is a really simple and easy method of cleaning your boots in seconds." "Right..." "To date, we've turned over £100,000 in the last year and we've sold 6,500 units." "Thank you for your time and I hope, together, we can..." " ALL THREE:" " .." "Leave the outdoors outside." "Hoping to clean up in the Den are the Dhillon family, who are asking for £60,000 in return for a 10% stake in their company, Boot Buddy." " How are you finding it, Nick?" " Therapeutic." "Surprising how little water goes a long way." "So you can maximise cleaning." "Product demonstration over and it's time for its 15-year-old inventor to leave his mother and older brother to face the Dragons' questions." "High-street retailer Touker Suleyman gets the ball rolling." " You've turned over £100,000?" " Yes." " What is the retail price?" " These sell for £12.99." "OK, and costs?" "Costs right now, it's about £7." "£7?" "Yeah." "I have to say, until you said you've sold £100,000 worth of product," "I was a little bit in shock because it is just a water bottle with a brush on the end." "The product works, it does exactly what it says it is going to do and, you know, we get mums e-mailing us all the time saying," ""Look, our kids never used to clean their boots," ""our HUSBANDS never used to clean their boots," ""and now they do, because they've got a cool, fun gadget."" "But, as you can see, when you were cleaning the boot, you run out pretty quickly." "And you'd have to refill to do your second boot." "I think that that is a design fault and I wouldn't want to say it in front of Arminder because the last thing I want to do is not praise and encourage, clearly, a young entrepreneur in the making," "but my biggest issue is the fact you've got to continue to refill it." "Design flaws and Dragons don't mix well." "Will the set-up of the family business also be a concern?" "What is the structure?" "Are you working out of home...?" "Yeah, we are, we are working out of our home office." "Everything is done from there." "The distribution, as well, is out of the basement of one of our shops." " So, what is your real business?" " Fish and chips." " Fish and chips?" " Catering, yeah." " Yes, fish and chips." "Oh, I love fish and chips!" " But I've got my own business..." " What is your business?" "Again, it's just fast food." "Fast food?" "What...?" "Chicken, chicken." "And what is your share structure?" "I mean, who owns the business?" "GURMINDER LAUGHS" "Well, obviously, Mum is the boss, she put the money in, so Mum has got 60% and..." " Everybody else has - 10%." "Right." "And how much did Mum put in?" "Em..." "Total, just below 250,000." "How much?" "!" "Sorry?" "!" " 250,000...pounds?" "!" " Yes." " TOUKER WHISTLES" " Wow!" "Wow!" "Good God!" "That's a lot of fish and chips you must have sold!" "Disbelief across the board as the revelation that the boot product has already been funded to the tune of £250,0000 leaves the Dragons reeling." "Serial investor Nick Jenkins wants answers." "What did you spend it on?" " Er..." " Tooling." "How much would the tooling cost for something like that?" "Just below 40,000." "Yeah." "The intellectual property, below 150." " Oh!" "Oh!" " And stock..." " I'm sorry, I'm sorry, did you say you spent £150,000 on the intellectual property?" "Below, just below." "It..." "The design is registered in 22 countries." "That is an ENORMOUS amount of money to have spent on something quite simple." "Enormous!" "I..." "I just don't understand why so much." "We thought... it was the best thing to do." "I just think you could have done it for a hell of a lot less." "A fraction of that!" "The blows just keep on coming, as excessive spending in the business leaves Nick Jenkins questioning their business savvy." "Can the fast-food family salvage any credibility?" "That money you put in, is it a loan?" " Or..." " Yeah, it's a director's loan." "So, basically, the company owes you the money." "Yeah, but, it's not like it's interest or that I'm in a rush for it, you know, it's..." "I don't want to stifle the growth of their company." "Are you in the position... to look at a bigger picture and say," ""I'd waive my director's loan on the basis that," ""by bringing a Dragon on board," ""I might get some actual dividends back?"" "If it helps the company move forward and it's the right decision, then yes." "Rashpal's calm demeanour and the suggestion that she might waive the £250,000 loan has raised a few Dragon eyebrows." "Can she snatch victory from the jaws of defeat?" "When it gets to the point that most of the people playing football would need to buy this in order for this investment to break even..." "..it's a bit frightening." "To make any sense of this as an investment, you would have to sell more than I believe you can sell in this market." "Em, so, for that reason, I'm out." "Nick Jenkins puts the boot in." "Will Sarah Willingham see more business potential in the Boot Buddy?" "Guys, I'm going to tell you where I am." "I've got houseful of muddy boots and I'm still... ..I'm still using the outdoor tap and the scrubbing brush." "I..." "I just don't think I'd use it." "You know, and I'm a mum surrounded by muddy boots, so I'm going to say no, but I really wish you all the best." "Thank you." "So, good luck, but I'm afraid I'm out." "A second Dragon brush-off for the Battersea-based entrepreneurs." "Now the chips are down, where does Touker Suleyman stand?" "It needs a lot, it needs... to be focused, to sell it, somebody who has got the contacts, somebody who can run the website, somebody who can give you some offices to work out of." "I tell you what I'm going to do." "I'm willing to give you all the money, but I want 35%." "It's not often the Den sees a Dragon go from almost falling off their seat after discovering company debts to piling in with an offer, but Touker Suleyman springs a surprise and tables a bid for 35% of the boot-cleaning enterprise," "way more than the 10% stake the family want to part with." "Does Deborah Meaden have a better offer in mind?" "I like an awful lot about it." "I like the story and that it was invented by your son and I think that you are a very, very supportive mum." " Thank you." " I think you've done an amazing job and I..." "I think..." "It's a good product." "What is holding me back is that it's just not an area that I love." "You know, I'm not into football." "I always feel like I can stand up and proudly shout about the brands I'm involved with because I feel it." "I just don't think I'm the right fit for you and, you know, that..." "I suspect you will get a better fit here, which is kind of a shame because I would love to be involved with it, but I don't think I'm going to do the best job for you." "It's not just football that we can restrict it to." "That is the beauty of it." "We can keep the same design and just change the bristles very easily." "For each market." "Anyone can actually use this product and it's easy." "Dog walkers, golf, and also the people who work on building sites, tarmac, you know, if you change the bristles, make them harder, so it's anybody with muddy boots." "She is persuasive, your mother, isn't she?" "Well..." "I don't normally do this, because 60,000 isn't a huge ask." "Often, I'll sit here and I'll say," ""It's £60,000, I want it on my own,"" "but I'm not offering the full package, but I would love to be involved, so I'm going to offer you half of the money..." "..and I would want..." "..12.5% of the business." "But what I would say is that I'd rather we parked your money, we didn't write it off, so it is said, look, when we've got our money out or there was an exit," "it is still sat there because it's the thing that got the business off the ground." "With offers on the table from Touker Suleyman and Deborah Meaden, the Boot Buddy has found some Dragon friends in the Den." "Will seeing his fellow Dragons make bids incentivise Peter Jones to enter the mix?" "Do you know what's really interesting, is I can absolutely see tens of thousands of these being sold." "If you could find a way to get that manufacturing costs at a level..." "I could see this being sold almost with every pair of boots that sold." "Touker and Deborah have both given you an offer." "And in my head, instinctively," "I would normally think that I'm going to go and compete with them." "I'm actually sitting here, thinking," ""I wonder whether..." ""..three Dragons..." ""..could give this exactly what this needs?"" "With my contacts in some of the sports places, you know, making use of Touker..." "He's been trying to, for almost a year now, to give away his office in any investment, and it would actually make me happy to be part of that, that I would see somebody use his office for once!" "TOUKER CHUCKLES" "I think that this has a real chance of success, but do what Deborah suggests - you keep your quarter of a million because I think it's really important" " that you get your money back." " I agree with that now." "So, I will offer you" "£20,000 for 10% if the other Dragons agreed, but you get three Dragons." "I..." "I would certainly..." "Yeah, I would like to do that." "OK, three of us would make a fantastic team." "Do you want to go and think about that and have a chat?" "Whilst Arminder nervously waits outside, his mum and brother have a huge decision to make." "I think with three of them there, we've got those three markets." "Peter Jones, Touker Suleyman and Deborah Meaden are each offering £20,000 for 10% of the business." "They want to take a smaller chunk of the pie and it is your favourite number..." "But giving away nearly a third of their company in total, three times what they were offering when they entered the Den, is a big ask for the entrepreneurs." " Seeing as Mum is the boss..." " No, I'm..." "Yeah, we would..." " we would love to work with all three of you." " Great!" "Three is my favourite number, so thank you." " DEBORAH:" " Is it your lucky number?" " It is my lucky number." " Well, there you are." " SARAH:" " Well done, fantastic!" "Oh, OK!" "DRAGONS CHEER" "The man of the hour!" " DEBORAH:" " Well done, you!" " Do you think Mum made the right decision?" "Yes, the best decision!" " It's been a remarkable turnaround..." " Thank you, bye-bye." "..from the shock revelation of Rashpal's £250,000 investment into the company to the Dragons agreeing that it would eventually be paid back." "The Dhillon clan leave the Den with a Dragon dream team on board." "That is intense!" "There are no words that can explain what I'm feeling." "It is amazing just to have one Dragon, but to have three is just overwhelming." "A lot of discussion about family values in the Den today, the value you put on a family business, that is." "The Dragons didn't plump for a laid-back beanbag pitch that wasn't quite full of beans, but they did see potential in that innovative boot-cleaning product." "Just goes to show there is no predicting what might happen when you enter Dragons' Den." "Bramble, jump." "Before you say anything, there's my money." "Still to come in this thrilling new series of Dragons' Den..." "Have you come here for investment or counselling?" "I'm flabbergasted by that." "There is a grave, you are now two foot in the grave." "This is the thing, that was out of my control." "Well, it's not, you're running a business," " it's supposed to be well within your control." " Yeah, I know." " Ugh!" "Have you ever seen anybody say," ""My business is worth half of what I'm asking you to invest in?"" "Have you ever met someone that ambitious that he wants to be free from life and be a billionaire?" " Rachel, Rachel and Paula, can we...?" " Oh, my God!" "Can we start being a bit more serious about this, please?" "You told me categorically, several times," " you've got a trademark and you haven't!" " Yeah." "What else are you completely wrong about in your business?"