"Man:" "Hello?" "Man 2:" "Yeah, this the Two Bar?" "Yeah." "Can I speak to Al..." "Coholic please?" "What are you trying to do, make a jerk out of yourself?" "Man 3:" "Come on, fellas, you're losing your heads." "Man 4:" "Orson, you did six last year and by far and away the best and I know the reason..." "The right reading for this is the one I'm giving it." "Man 5:" "So if I come down there and you call the police when I get there..." "you're recording me?" "Woman:" "So what?" "Why are you recording me?" "Man 6:" "Double fucking bullshit." "Motherfucking, dog-licking goddamn bullshit." "Man:" "The way we found 237 Steiner was," "I think Mitch found a little ad in the classified paper." "We make our way down from this sort of nice neighbourhood where we're staying and we're creeping along and I'm going," ""Oh wow, we might live in one of these cool old buildings!"" "And then we pull up and there's this totally ramshackle shithole of a place." "Yeah, when we first saw the place, it was this gaudy pink colour." ""What does this remind us of?"" "I don't remember who coined it, but we came up with the "Pepto-Bismol Palace", because Pepto-Bismol is a classic kind of antacid, anti-diarrhea medicine." "We said, "We'll sign the lease."" "The absentee landlord of the place, Nancy Lee, she stepped out of the apartment, I'll never forget it, and she turned... after the lease was signed, and she said," ""One more thing:" "Next door neighbours, sometime little bit loud."" "Man:" "All you are is a fucking queer motherfucker." "You want to watch queer shit!" "I don't want to watch that shit!" "Man 2:" "We're watching "Wheel of Fortune" and "Jeop..." "You're watching a bunch of fucking queer motherfuckers!" "I don't want to watch queer motherfuckers!" "I've had enough tonight, Ray." "Ray:" "Well then..." "Then shut your mouth, you fucking piece of shit." "You shut up, little man!" "Little man, you shut up!" "I don't want to hurt you." "You've been... you've been screeching for an hour." "Now, stop it." "No, I haven't, you lying fucking piece of shit." "Stop it." "You dirty little man." "...piece of shit." "You even smell..." "All you are is a piece of shit." "I smell like a human being, you smell like a fucking dog!" "You shut up, little man." "Shut up, little man!" "Shut up, little man!" "Shut up, little man!" "Shut up, little man!" "Shut up, little man!" "Shut up, little man!" "Shut up, little man!" "Men:" "¶ As we look at our state ¶" "¶ We would like to begin ¶" "¶ With the beautiful shores ¶" "¶ Of Lake Michigan ¶" "Woman:" "¶ And right here and now ¶" "Men  Women:" "¶ We'd like to make it clear ¶" "¶ We like it ¶" "Eddie:" "Well, Wisconsin's a totally backward place." "It's like beer, cheese, the Green Bay Packers." "It's pretty limited." "Male voice:" "What about our cranberries, our corn and our peas?" "Mitch:" "The impetus for me, I think, to get out was I kind of outgrew Wisconsin." "It was time for me to move on." "Male voice:" "That's a good looking crop you have this year." "Eddie:" "Yeah, at the end of college everybody starts formulating plans for the next phase of their lives." "Mitch:" "We ran into one another and I said, "Well, what are you going to do?"" ""Yeah, I'm definitely thinking about going to California."" "I said, "Yeah, I'm heading to San Francisco."" ""So am I, you know, that's definitely what I want to do."" "Eddie:" "He's like, "Dude, let's go together."" "¶ Well, I'm going out West ¶" "¶ Where I belong ¶" "¶ Where the days are short ¶" "¶ And the nights are long ¶" "Mitch:" "It was a momentous time." "I was, you know, moving on to the next chapter." "Eddie:" "We were going into the unknown." "We had no idea what we were going to do." "I mean, I didn't have a job or any prospects out there." "You know, I just knew that I wanted to go to this big, giant city and, you know, found a new persona." "¶ I'll shiver ¶" "¶ A little shiver ¶" "¶ And I'll fly ¶" "¶ A little fly ¶" "¶ While they're out there having fun, yeah ¶" "¶ In the warm California sun ¶" "¶ Well, they're out there having fun, yeah ¶" "¶ In the warm California sun ¶" "Eddie:" "So, you know, basically the Pepto-Bismol Palace was like a cheap motel." "You know, there were two rows of four apartments, one on top of each other." "They were all connected by this concrete veranda." "It was basically, like, made out of snot and cardboard." "The walls were paper-thin." "It was a place you'd be embarrassed to have people over, basically, you know." "I think it was... it was about three weeks in, after we had signed the lease that we were living there that we first heard the neighbours." "I..." "I was laying down in my bed and all I could hear was this voice going," ""Shut up, little man." ""Shut up, little man." ""Shut up, little man!" "Shut up, little man."" "And I was just laying in bed going," ""What the fuck is going on?"" "It was one morning, I got up as usual." "You know, we get up, meet in the kitchen and he said, "Did you hear that last night?"" ""No, I didn't hear anything."" "The next night" "I'm laying in bed, and I hear," ""Shut up, little man."" ""Not again."" "And then I heard the other voice:" ""Shut your fucking mouth, cocksucker!"" ""Shut up, little man."" ""You shut your fucking mouth, you queer cocksucker!"" "First of all, I thought it was this one lunatic, like, talking to himself in the room, right?" "Then I understood, "Oh, there's two dudes in there and they're fighting."" "Ray:" "Then shut your mouth, you fucking piece of shit." "Eddie:" "So, I heard Mitch get up for work and I got up..." ""Hey, man, did you hear those guys fighting last night?"" "You know, again, I'm a very sound sleeper." "I don't wake up very easily, so I certainly wasn't awakened by these guys." "And he said, "Oh, it was just crazy."" "I felt a little unhinged and the fact that he wasn't hearing them was making me feel more unhinged." "Peter:" "Shut up, little man." "You see what you've done?" "Male voice:" "Got to get to sleep." "Eddie:" "And then it happened again." "Peter:" "Shut up, little..." "Male voice:" "No, got to get to sleep." "Peter:" "Shut up, little man." "Mitch:" "He came into my room." "It was about 3:30, 4:00 in the morning, just started, like, shaking my leg, saying, "Hey, hey, Mitch!" "Wake up, wake up!" "They're going at it."" "I jumped out of bed, ran into his room, we slid open the window and we were sitting there listening." "And he said, "This is it." "This is what these guys are doing."" "Peter:" "You bitch." "You dirty little man." "Ray:" "Don't call me a bitch, you cocksucker." "You are a bitch." "Goddamn you." "No, I'm not some sort of a fucking nut." "No..." "Giggle all you want to!" "Giggle!" "Giggle, dirty little man." "You always giggle falsely!" "You don't have a decent giggle in you." "I am a decent..." "Shut up, little man!" "I'm a decent fucking..." "Shut up, little man!" "You are not." "You bet damn right I am." "Shut up, little man." "Eddie:" "This time, it was basically trying to figure out survival strategies, because you're living next door to people who have no regimented time." "They don't work." "They basically drink all day and pound the shit out of each other." "Peter:" "Go to bed." "Go to bed." "Ray:" "Shut your fucking mouth..." "Mitch:" "You know, their fighting never ended." "They drank, they drank for a living;" "That was apparent." "Peter:" "You have drunk the wine, you have drunk the vodka." "Shut up, little man!" "Ray, you are just fucking up." "I had had enough and I went nuts." "And I decide I was going to deal with it." "So, I went over to the next door neighbour's house and I banged on the door." "Nothing's happening." "And then I kicked." "Boom." "Finally, I could hear something kind of rattling on the other side of the door." "And then the door opened up... and there was this..." "Cro-Magnon looking kind of guy, who had the neck muscles of a newborn." "I was infuriated." "I said, "Goddamn it," you know," ""you guys have been screaming for days." ""I'm trying to get some sleep." "You need to shut the fuck up."" "So, it was Ray, and he said," ""Hey, listen, you cocksucker," ""you skinny cocksucker," ""shut your fucking mouth and go back to bed." ""I was a killer before you were born and I'll be a killer when you're dead."" "And I had this kind of moment where..." "I popped into, like, sobriety." "I was looking at this totally drunken asshole who had just threatened to kill me..." "Eddie: ...and I looked over and there was a human skull in the window." "And I..." "I was standing there and I thought to myself," ""Man, I am in way over my head here."" "And I kind of scurried back to my apartment." "And I remember we could hear Ray saying," ""Come knock on my door, you cocksucker." "I dare you." "I kill, I will kill."" "Ray:" "But I'm a killer." "You want to fuck with me, you little cocksucker?" "Try it." "Go ahead, come knock on my fucking door, you little fucking piece of shit." "I will kill you instantly." "Oh my God, you know?" "Two young guys kind of living in the city thinking... not knowing them, not knowing who they were, you know, threatening to kill us." "It wasn't commonplace for us." "Ray:" "I am ready now to kill any cocksucker that wants to fuck with me." "The first recording, you know, was in response." "It was a response to feeling intimidated, feeling frightened, really, feeling scared." "I want to document this in case something really horrible does go down." "I remember setting up the boom box, grabbing a blank tape out of the tape box." "And I ran in my room and I grabbed these..." "my ski poles, took the microphone, spliced in some speaker wire, and held the ski poles out the window adjacent to their window." "And now we could hear it coming through them, through the speakers, and it was coming through loud and clear." "And, uh, it was moments after we had done this that all of a sudden you hear Peter say..." "You know we are sort of like, "Oh no!" "Oh, what should we do?"" "And, you know, we both looked at each other and like," ""Fuck it, leave it there, see what happens."" "And all of a sudden, Ray... you can hear Ray kind of coming to the window and he says..." "Mitch:" "Yeah?" "That was their response to being recorded." "They didn't..." "they didn't seem to care." "Peter:" "Will you stop it?" "Little man, stop it!" "Stop it!" "Ray:" "You cocksucker, you know what you did?" "No..." "You ruined my cigarette papers." "I didn't ruin your cigarette papers, you asshole." "How did I ruin your cigarette papers?" "There's this sort of bitchy queen thing going on with Peter, you know." "Ray:" "Look at them." "There they are." "Peter:" "Well, how did I do it?" "You jumped, you hit me a while ago, you dirty cocksucker." "Oh well, darling, I am sorry!" "Here are some... here are some cigarette papers for you, asshole." "Here they are." "There you are, darling." "Ray:" "Don't call me darling, you..." "Peter:" "Well then, don't act like a fool." "And then Raymond was this sort of embittered, redneck, absolute frothing, you know, queer-hating homophobe." "Ray:" "Because that's true." "I despise all fucking queers." "Cocksuckers." "I like girls and normal, decent human beings." "Boys like girls and girls like boys." "Fuck them little cocksuckers." "It's just mind boggling that they would actually not only live together, but that they would stay living together, you know?" "We would giggle and laugh over the absurdity of it, how crazy it was." "And, uh, then, you know, it was like, "We got to get some more of this." "Let's get some more of this."" "So yeah, I definitely... we both did, we became obsessed with it." ""What are they going to say next?"" "Ray:" "What did you do during the war?" "You didn't do nothing except being fucking queer." "That's all queers ever do." "I hate queers." "Queers are not human beings." "Peter:" "Herewegoagain ." "Cut it out, Ray." "Well, tell me what you did in the war." "Shut your dirty little mouth..." "Tell me what you did during the..." "war, you fucking queer." "What did you do during any war?" "You didn't do anything." "You son of a bitch, I was wounded three times." "Oh, bullshit." "Goddamn right." "Bullshit, yeah, you were maybe wounded when you fell over your bayonet when you were drunk." "Eddie:" "So, as our obsession sort of increased we were trying to, in sort of an anthropological way, collect all the data we could on Peter and Raymond." "One time we did follow Ray and it was like trying to catch the sasquatch, you know, this fabled creature that ambled through the woods." "So, you know, I kind of snuck up beside him with my little wig on, and then, you know," "Mitch is being the expert photographer going..." "Eddie:" "Peter..." "I never saw Peter outside the building, except for very early on when we first met him and he was chatting me up." "Oh, my god, like, someone's sitting in the room with them?" "Tony was the intermittent roommate." "He was a scary guy." "He was your classic redneck from the South." "Peter:" "Our Tony is seeing what it's about." "Ray:" "I already told Tony that I thought you was a liar and a thief and a cheat." "I know, that's what... that's what I started to say to him, and he said, and you said, "No, you have never said that."" "Now you're saying it." "Oh, I certainly did!" "I said you're a liar and a thief and a cheat." "All right, Tony, you see what it is." "Tony was used as sort of this, like, objective force that was a witness." "He was the judge and jury." "It was... it was very strange." "Peter:" "In the meantime, shut up." "Both Tony and I want to go to sleep." "So shut your fucking mouth!" "Mitch:" "I used to make a lot of mix tapes for friends and I almost always, on these tapes," "I would put little snippets of Pete and Ray in between." "So as soon as friends would hear this, they're like, "What the hell was that?"" "Eddie:" "You know, we'd dub a tape or two for our really closest friends and then they'd be like, "Dude, can I bring a six pack and come by on Thursday night?"" "It'd be, like, "Man, the rent is due." "So, when the rent's due there's always a war, so come on by."" "Peter:" "Where are the cheques I wrote you for the rent?" "I want them." "Ray:" "None of your fucking business." "They're no good." "There is no rent paid." "I catch you touching my fucking shit and so help me..." "Ah, there is no rent..." "I'll stick a fucking..." "Goodnight sweet Prince." "I'll stick a fucking..." "Oh, shut up!" "You said you would be quiet, then do it." "You want to stick me with that fork?" "You get back in there." "Touch my shit and I will..." "I..." "Nobody ever touched your shit, asshole." "You lying son of a bitch, you." ""You lying son of a bitch!"" "You know how sick you are?" "I don't give a shit." "Take your fucking cheque and stick them up your fucking ass." "Mitch:" "We went from more of a..." "passive observer to... provoking things." "Eddie:" "You're calling them?" "Oh, jeez." "Mitch:" "You going to hold the mike?" "You hold the mike." "Ray:" "Hello?" "Mitch:" "Hey, Ray, say, this is Ardell again." "I just..." "I forgot to leave a message last time when I spoke with you." "Ray:" "This is who?" "Mitch:" "This is Ardell." "I was asking for Tony before." "Ray:" "Oh, yeah." "Mitch:" "Is he still a queer?" "Ray:" "Hey..." "Hey, listen, you son of a bitch." "You're..." "You're..." "You're not very fucking smart if you thought Tony was queer." "Mitch:" "Well, you know, that's okay with me." "I don't mind if Tony's queer." "I was just wondering..." "Ray:" "Hey, look, you asshole, forget it." "Hey, look, I was a mean motherfucker in my time and I still am." "Mitch:" "Oh, I know you..." "Ray:" "Don't... don't ever suggest a thing like that again." "Ever." "Mitch:" "You must be queer too then, Ray." "Ray:" "Hey, you cocksucker." "I'll tell you what, you fucking piece of shit, how would you like me now to..." "I'll show you what a queer is." "Mitch:" "What should I do, grab my ankles, Ray?" "You're just a little man, I knew you were a little man." "Ray:" "Hey!" "Don't call me little man, you fucking piece of shit." "I tell you what, you're a piece of shit." "Here they are!" "You know I've always wondered if there's stuff..." "In fact, not only do I wonder," "I know there's stuff that we recorded that..." "I never found..." "We don't have." "Yeah, Right." "In here somewhere." "At the end of "Ween" probably, there's, like, 20 minutes that we've never heard" " since 1985-7 or whatever." " Could be." "Could be, I know." "I know, I know." "Yeah, there's some precious stuff on here." "Some of this stuff..." ""Don't Call Me Goodnight"." ""Don't call me goodnight."" " Hello, you little..." " "I'm saying goodnight."" ""Don't call me goodnight, you cocksucker."" ""Hello, You Little Queer."" ""If you want to talk to me..." "Both: ...then shut your fucking mouth."" ""Someday I Will Kill You."" "That's one of my favourites." "Mitch:" "At the end of our stay at the Pepto-Bismol Palace, we had compiled at least 14 hours of material." "Man:" "Hit... hit the old "play" there." ""I will kill you."" ""You lying son of a bitch!"" ""Here you are, darling."" ""Don't call me darling."" ""Well then, don't act like a fool."" ""Goddamn it, shut your little fucking mouth up!"" ""You always giggle falsely."" ""You fucking piece of shit."" ""Shut up, little man."" ""You cocksucker!"" ""Shut up, little man!" "Little man..."" ""Shut up!"" ""Uh, I thought you said you were going to be quiet."" "It's such genius." "Just the... the way they throw the words around." "But they're so joyless, you know, just sort of like..." ""You cocksucker, you piece of sh..."" "You know, just may as well be saying, like," ""I love you, honey," or..." "It's so close to that." "Male voice:" "An ordinary, routine domestic day." "Ray:" "You're a lying son of a bitch." "You ain't never done a decent thing in your fucking life." "Peter:" "Shut up, little man!" "I got..." "I got a decent dinner ready." "Nothing happened with the dinner because you crucified it." "You ruined it." "Goddamn you." "Rosenthal:" "Pete and Ray functioned very much like a married couple." "A lot of the arguments were about food preparation and money arguments..." "As a prototype of all relationships distilled down into this, you know, this eternal battle, uh-h... it... you know, it's unparalleled." "Why are these guys living together?" "What is the context?" "There's definitely a back story going on, which isn't necessarily obvious on the surface." "They're very different." "One is a homosexual, one seems to despise homosexuals." "Ray:" "I don't say Hitler was right, but goddamn it, all fucking queers, they ought to die!" "The big question has always been," ""Is Ray a self-loathing homosexual?"" "Ray:" "You goddamn queer cocksucker." "Shut your fucking mouth and go to bed." "I must have, what, you know, seven or eight hours of material and it's almost all, you know, will burn the hair off your ears." "You know, it's just, every bit of it is shocking even the 50th time you hear it." "Ray:" "The last... the best thing that can happen to me, according to my doctors, is for I to say," ""Goodbye, you cocksucker!" and never see you again." "I'll be so fucking glad when you're gone." "Peter:" "Goodnight." "Ray:" "You ain't a human being, you fucking..." "Peter:" "Goodnight." "Ray:" "Don't call me goodnight, you cocksucker." "Eddie:" "Probably about two years after I'd moved out of the Pepto," "I was living back in the Midwest and I got a phone call." ""Hey, this is Seymour Glass from 'Bananafish' magazine,"" "which was this fantastic sort of underground culture magazine, and I said, "Whoa, hey, man." "What's going on?"" "And he said, "I want to speak to you about some famous ex-neighbours of yours, Raymond and Peter."" "And I thought..." ""How do you know about Raymond and Peter?"" "And he said, "Oh, man, everybody out here in San Francisco is listening to these tapes you guys made."" "Ray:" "I am a man." "I'm a decent fucking human being, a man." "Peter:" "Ray, nobody else is saying anything." "You're the only one..." "Ray:" "Then shut your fucking mouth, you son of a bitch." "I had actually shared a tape with my good friend Rich Whitaker who was in a band called Poopshovel." "He shared the tape with some other folks." "You know, it just kind of spread like wildfire amongst not only our friends, but it just... friends of friends of friends, people sharing it with anyone." "It really moved on its own;" "Had a life of its own." "Eddie:" "The initial spread of "Shut Up, Little Man"" "all happened pre-digital, pre-internet and was essentially spread from kind of obsessive, subterranean network of tape traders." "All right." "This taking me so far back." "I don't even remember the last time I listened to a tape." "Oh, boy." "Let's see what we've got here." ""Chet Gets His Phone Tapped:" "Parts 1, 2 and 3"." ""The Prank Tape"." ""Phunny Phriggin Phone Pranks"." ""Calls To Rednecks"." ""Pranks For The Memories"." "And, of course, "Raymond and Peter"." "One 'zine mentioned something called: "Shut Up, Little Man"" "saying, "If you love prank calls, this is the next level." "It's about as real as it gets." "You'll love it."" "I'm, like, okay, this is the Holy Grail." "Here it is, this is the thing I will just not give up for anybody." "But at the time I listened to it, I hated it." "All it was were just, to me, monotonous rants by two guys, conversations that went nowhere." "Why am I bothering with any of this?" "This is... this is horrible." "Found myself listening to it two days later." "Peter:" "You are a rotten little liar man." "Lady." "Pardon me, lady." "Levy:" "All of a sudden it made sense." "I could follow along the drama that was going on, the conflict between Raymond and Peter." "I laughed, but I felt really bad 'cause I was laughing." "It was like I was an accomplice just by listening." "And by the time it was over I was hooked." "And I said my goal from here on out is to tell as many people about this as I can." "Gibbs:" "We had this network of people who would exchange all these audio verité tapes." "And it was all about the cassette tape." "And at that time, I mean, cassette tapes were, like, everything." "And there was a tremendous amount of material" "that was going around." "Rosenthal:" "Audio verité is audio that is true." "It's real audio that's oftentimes recorded surreptitiously, oftentimes unearthed or discovered, and then disseminated." "Orson Welles:" "We know a remote farm in Lincolnshire." "Every July, peas grow there." "Man:" "Can you emphasize a bit "in"?" ""In July"." "Welles:" "Why?" "That doesn't make any sense." "That's just stupid." ""In July"..." "Love to know how you emphasize "in" in "in July"." "Impossible." "Meaningless." "Man 2:" "I think all they were thinking about was that they didn't want to..." "Welles:" "He isn't thinking." "Too much directing around here." "We know a little place in the American Far West where Charlie Briggs chops up the finest prairie-fed beef and tastes..." "This is a lot of shit, you know that." "Brunetti:" "Wow, that's really Orson Welles," "That's the way he really was." "I mean, it is... and it's a distorted view of him from, like, late in his life and he's being humiliated, like, reading commercials, but... you know, you do feel like you're getting a glimpse" "into a side of him you will not see in film." "Audio verité is also a little bit about voyeurism." "It presents this opportunity for us to peek into other people's lives and hear a little glimpse, a little audio snapshot." "Woman:" "Yes, and good evening, Trademark G." "And good evening to you, dear listeners." "It is me, Trademark G." "And joined with me, one..." "Frillypants." "Frilly." "We have a show here that's all about found sounds." "Boy:" "Dad, do you need any help?" "Dad:" "Well, of course not!" "Of course, I needed some help before." "God, I hate this..." "cheap piece of shit!" "Spend the $300 and buy the right fucking tool, the fucking moron." "Trademark G.:" "We're going to be joined by so many people tonight." "People recorded that maybe didn't know they were or did know, but didn't know that they were going to have their recordings shared to the entire world." "Frillypants:" "Great." "All right." "I can't wait." "Shall we do it?" "Let's." "Here we go." "Right here..." "On the Sound of Plaid." "Woman:" "Geoffrey, it is..." "you know," "I don't know how many people who don't believe in abortion, who don't want to do it." "What?" "Man:" "It's the one thing I can't do." "Woman:" "Oh, come on, but we talked about having children." "Boy: ¶ Connor likes to have sex with animals ¶" "¶ Connor likes to have sex with animals ¶" " Man 2:" "Yeah?" " Where's my father?" "Huh?" "Where's my father?" "Your father is in..." "your mother's asshole." "Yeah?" "You fucking bum." "I never had heard of the term "audio verité"" "until I had read some articles that our recordings had inspired." "This guy named Seymour Glass was interested in the material and he wanted to distribute them in his magazine." "Eddie:" "Along with, I think it was "Bananafish" No.5," "Seymour published six volumes of recordings." "Did, like, 500 copies of each of the volumes." "And they sold out in two or three months." "Ray:" "I don't want to hurt you..." "Peter:" "Sit down." "Sit down and shut up." "I am perfectly capable of killing you." "Then shut up and be a man." "Then you shut your fucking mouth..." "Be a man." "Be a man." "Then shut your fucking mouth." "Then you shut yours." "Shut your fucking mouth, you goddamn queer cocksucker." "Shut your fucking mouth!" "The next time I'm going to pop you." "I'm going to pop you if you don't shut up." "Now, stop it." "You've drunk four litres of wine today." "I'll tell you what, you cocksucker." "You try to hit me and I will kill you." "Initially we had this disclaimer on the back of the tapes that said, "If you want to use for artistic purposes, feel free to do so, but please notify us."" "You know, the bottom line is, we just said, you know," ""If anybody wants to use this again for artistic purposes, feel free."" "People started taking the material and doing really cool things with it." "That part was really exciting for me." "Because they were getting juice, they were getting creative inspiration from the recordings." "Clowes:" "I can't remember who asked me to ever draw these guys, but whoever it was," "I'm sure I was immediately amenable to it, because I had spent so much time listening to these tapes and I had such a clear vision of how these guys looked." "They feel very much like the odd couple, or some kind of sitcom characters, pushed to a degree that they're both more realistic and more cartoonish at the same time." "Brunetti:" "Because I'd been doing comics for a while at that point and I kind of had a reputation as this guy that did these sort of sick, twisted strips." "I think in general, like, I tend to," "I wouldn't say relate to Peter," "I think he is truly, like, the definition of an asshole, but I somehow understand the way his mind works, which scares me." "So, I think the appeal of it... well, probably, like, at first, it is going to appeal to your misanthropic side, to just kind of laughing at people." "The deeper you get into it, like, there's actually more to it than that and you can kind of keep on exploring it." "Clowes:" "At the basic core it's all about their relationship and I think that's a..." "that's a universal thing." "You know, it's about two people trying to live and have some kind of sense of identity that is constantly being reappraised by this other person." "And it's like a microcosm of how we all relate to each other." "Ray:" "I am not going to die." "I will tell you if I'm dead." "Last time..." "I think I walked away without saying this, but I'm saying it now." "Anybody fucks with my shit while I'm in the fucking hospital... they're going to answer to me." "Any cocksucker that steals from me or fucks with my shit..." "I'm going to dump the shit..." "I'll kick the shit out of any cocksucker..." "We became so obsessed with the "Shut Up, Little Man"" "that we... we drew them." "We started to draw them all the time." "We were just drawing pictures of what we imagined they'd look like." "And some people, they'd just hear screeching." "They don't realize the art that is there." "They don't grasp what we do." "And so, we decided to bridge that gap." "We would build puppets." "Peter:" "You want to stick me with that fork?" "You get back in there." "Ray:" "Touch my shit and I will..." "N-Nobody ever touched your shit, asshole." "You lying son of a bitch." ""Oh, you lying son of a bitch."" "You know how sick you are?" "I'm not sick." "Tony is having to listen to this." "Mike Mitchell:" "What was the perfect storm for these guys to be doing it and someone recording it at the same time." "It's really fascinating." "And again, it's not fun to think of how illegal that might be and how invasive it is." "I don't want to think about that." "I don't want to know what happened before or after the argument." "Just to hear them is..." "is just bliss." "I just love it." "Peter:" "Shut up, little man!" "You know how sick you are?" "Isn't that neat?" "So, Bob Cazaly passed out copies of "Shut Up, Little Man"." "Of course we spent a weekend laughing about it." "Ursula:" "Well, yeah, my dad brought it home and I thought it was pretty great." "I mean, I think I shouldn't have listened to that maybe when I was 13." "Peter:" "You said you would be quiet, then do it." "Bob Mothersbaugh:" "When I was working on this song, you know," "I'm lazy..." "I didn't want to write lyrics." "So, I thought, well, why don't we just use some lines from "Little Man"?" "Peter:" "I will shut up when you do!" "Mitch:" "Oh, it's amazing." "Look at just these silly little recordings we made never assuming they would amount to anything." "Now, all of a sudden, it's escalated and it snowballed into this enormous kind of phenomenon." "Ray:" "You think everything's fun." "It's not." "Eddie:" "A lot of articles started appearing in major publications." "Ray:" "I am the human race and I will not take it any more!" "Eddie:" "It's like "Vanity Fair", "The LA Times"..." "Ray:" "You're such a little fool!" "Eddie: "Spin Magazine" did an article." "Mitch:" "Once the tapes were issued, that's when we were..." "got a call from Johan Kugelberg of Matador Records." "Now, Matador Records at the time was, like, the hottest label." "You know, Pavement was on there," "Teenage Fanclub, The Fall." "A subsidiary of that wants to put up "Shut Up, Little Man"?" "Perfect." "Peter:" "I don't want to hurt you." "Mitch:" "Well, the end result was the CD." "72 minutes of... the most vitriolic and abusive material you've had the displeasure of hearing." "Peter:" "Sorry, darling." "Ray:" "I despise all queers." "I am the human race, you fucking queer!" "You're a cheap little bitch." "If you want to talk to me, then shut your fucking mouth." "Shut up, little man!" "Time to go to bed." "I want to go to sleep!" "Now, shut up!" "Wow." "This is great." "There's..." "a fellowship of fans." "So, I was loving it." "I loved it." "Man:" "Sorry." "Christian Bale:" "No, don't just be sorry, think for one fucking second!" "Am I going to walk around and rip your fucking lights down?" "In the middle of a scene?" "I mean, the "Shut Up, Little Man" phenomenon would have happened a lot faster had the internet existed at that time." "Christian Bale:" "Do I fucking walk around and rip down..." "No, shut the fuck up, Bruce." "Do I what... no!" "Fuck." "What the fuck is it with you?" "Man:" "I was looking at the lights." "Christian Bale:" "Fuck." "What the fuck is it with you?" "Man:" "I was looking at the lights." "Fuck!" "What the fuck is it with you?" "I was looking at the lights." "Fuck!" "What the fuck is it with you?" "I was looking at the lights." "It's fucking distracting." "All:" "Oh, good!" "It's fucking distracting." "All:" "Oh, good!" "Now, the machinations are in place for things to go viral so quickly." "Christian Bale:" "What the fuck are you doing?" "Peter:" "Shut up, little man!" "No!" "No!" "Don't shut me up." "Nobody asked you to say anything." "Eddie: "Shut Up, Little Man", sort of remarkably proliferated out in this strange, kind of primitive way compared to what we're dealing with now, you know." "Gibbs:" "A friend of mine received a tape and it said on it, "Old Men Fighting"." "I immediately took it home and started..." "I remember that day, just started..." "put on the headphones and started transcribing:" ""Shut up, little man." "Shut up, little man." ""You dirty fucking piece of shit." "You dirty fucking piece of shit."" "Goddamn you..." "Goddamn you, shut up!" "Shut up!" "Then shut your fucking mouth." "Shut up." "You shut up." "No." "You shut up." "No." "Shut up..." "Eddie:" "So, I got a call from a playwright in Los Angeles named Gregg Gibbs." "He had evidently done a..." "a short two-person play." "Shut up, little man." "Then shut your fucking mouth." "Shut up, little man." "Gibbs:" "There's something about the human condition that I find really compelling." "This nitty gritty human condition that's... the opposite of what you normally see in the media." "Audience:" "Audience:" "Gibbs:" "I always intended, like, to make a full play." "After about a year, year and a half," "I had worked with the material so much," "I felt like I had a play." "At that point, we got in touch with Eddie Lee Sausage." "And I got on the phone with him and of course the first thing he says to me:" ""You fucking piece of shit."" "Gibbs was... he's a pretty interesting guy." "He had a lot of juice." "Really enthusiastic." "Effervescent, bubbling over." "Almost maniacal." "And I was just like, "Sounds great, absolutely, you know, let's do a play."" "Mixed voices:" "Shut u-u-u-u-up!" "Shut up!" "Shut up!" "Shut up!" "Shut up!" "You shut up." "Shut up." "You shut up." "Then you shut up." "You shut up." "Then you shut up." "Then you..." "Then you shut up." "Then do it." "Then do it." "Then do it." "Then do it." "Shut up!" "Then do it." "Shut up." "Good, shut your fucking mouth." "Gibbs:" "So I flew Eddie in and we kind of became friends, you know, in a way." "And then he also brought tapes to sell and suddenly on the tapes, when you opened it up, it no longer said," ""You may freely use this material for whatever you wish."" "It was replaced by: "Copyright:" "Eddie Lee Sausage and Mitchell Lee."" "Interviewer:" "Why did you feel like you needed to copyright the recordings?" "We felt compelled to, because it was, you know, all of a sudden people started using it and wanting it... and wanting to use it and were asking us about legal aspects of it and felt like, what we got to take... do something about this to make it more ours." "Well, do what you got to do, you know." "I have my play, which to me is original material." "You know, it's all manipulated." "I never really do verbatim the tapes." "Man:" "You said you were going to be quiet." "Well, do it!" "Do it then." "You want to talk to me... then shut your fucking mouth!" "Eddie:" "Well, the strangest part was, the night before the play," "I'd actually been in San Francisco... and Mitchell and I had gone and found the real Peter Haskett in the Tenderloin." "Mitch:" "We waited for quite a long time." "Eddie:" "Two, three hours maybe." "And literally just on the verge of us giving up I went... then up... up the street right here came Peter Haskett." "So we had had the record company cut a royalty cheque, so to speak, for Peter." "I personally felt an obligation, one, to have a conversation with Peter about it and just say, "Hey, look, this thing's..." ""these recordings we made of you yelling at Raymond" ""have gotten..." ""have sort of spread like wildfire." "Um, and we have no idea what's going to happen with this," A." "And B, to give him some money, because he was entitled to it, I felt." "I think it kind of... it was a little creepy for him at some..." "at one point." "When we were, we were revealing details about his life and his history and: "Well, how do you know that?" "How do you know?"" ""Well, we used to live next door to you."" "He was... he wouldn't acknowledge it initially." "He-he said, like, "Ray?" "Ray and I never fought."" "So, it was really weird." "It was kind of overcoming this obstacle with him to get him to acknowledge the fact that, yes, indeed they fought." "We have this material on tape." "You might say we have some proof of that." "There's..." "Yeah, yeah, there was this... there's a CD..." "out in the public and you're on it and you've become this... sort of underground icon." "Eddie:" "And never..." "I don't think it ever occurred to us that he wouldn't even acknowledge the basic, simple elemental thing, that these guys were fighting and at each other's throats." "It was so hard to get past that and try to, you know, explain to him, like, this thing had become a cult." "Interviewer:" "Did you record the..." "this meeting?" "Did he know about that?" "I did have this really inexpensive little tape recorder." "I don't recall if I had it..." "I think for a while I had it under the table." "I was doing it rather clandestinely." "Interviewer:" "Did he take the money?" "No." "Peter did not... did not accept the money." "I felt really disappointed by that." "I just felt like, oh man, you know..." "His rejection of the cheque?" "Yeah." "Yeah." "This was a chance for us to share with him, you know." "I do too..." "Yeah, yeah, like I said, you know, sort of morally, this sort of inner... this ethical thing for me was, I felt obligated." "I really did, I just wanted to be like, okay, you know, this is the least we can do for this guy." "And then eventually toward the end of the evening, we just said, you know, "We've got to get going, Peter."" ""Well, fellas, we could get a room."" "You know, we're like, "No, we're good."" "It was a rainy night and... we watched him just kind of stumble across the street back to the Taylor Hotel, and we went on our way." "I am perfectly capable of kicking the shit out of you!" "Then shut up and be a man." "Eddie:" "And here I was in Los Angeles the following night, sitting in a crowd of some famous people in a full house watching people portray Peter, you know, on stage." "And it was very strange." "And a little uncomfortable." "Break it up, guys." "Break it up." "Eddie:" "I got a really strong sense that this felt like it was totally out of our control." "Our role as pivotal players had changed." "Shut your fucking mouth!" "Gibbs:" "During the end of the run" "I remember sitting down with Eddie and Mitchell and we did a handshake deal and decided that we'd go 50-50 if anything came out of this." "Eddie:" "In the audience, there were a lot of film industry people and one of those people was a woman named..." "Peter:" "Pardon me, lady." "And she had a development company and actually contacted us about optioning the film rights for "Shut Up, Little Man"." "After the run of the play I went to go meet with them, and I went in with all of the exhibition stuff and I did this full pitch." "And how this is "Odd Couple" meets "Waiting For Godot"" "meets... takes acid in hell." "You know, it was that kind of, like..." "I did this full Hollywood pitch and they came back to me and they said they love it." "Mitch:" "So the first time we went down there they put us up in this really nice hotel." "Eddie:" "And it was really, really fun." "I mean, Mitch and I have always had a lot of fun together." "Hollywoo-o-od!" "Mitch:" "We would go to these sort of boardrooms and talk about various aspects, various elements of the whole phenomenon and how things happened and how they developed." "We actually signed a development deal with..." "Peter:" "Lady. ..." "Films." "Mitch:" "Wow, they want to make a movie about our lives." "You know, who wouldn't that appeal to?" "Eddie:" "So, Gregg was going to write a treatment, basically." "He was going to get $20,000 to write the treatment." "I got this sort of hysterical call from..." "Peter:" "Pardon me, lady." "...one day and she said," ""Eddie, Eddie..." ""Gregg Gibbs just stormed into my office" ""and was making demands about me giving him money." "Who the fuck is this Gibbs?"" "That's a complete lie." "That's a complete lie." "Storming in there and getting $20,000 did not happen." "I did not get a cent from them." ""Who the fuck is this Gregg Gibbs?"" "And I never made any demands on them." "I wasn't in a position to demand anything from them." "You know, I was trying to explain to her, like, actually he doesn't own anything." "We copyrighted the material." "We trademarked the name "Shut Up, Little Man"." "Basically, they did what everyone in Hollywood tries to do when they have a project:" "They cut people out." "They both got very greedy." "You're a cheap, little son of a bitch!" "You know, I called and checked in with Gregg." ""Listen, Eddie, I created this phenomenon."" "Eddie, he's a very vindictive guy." "And then he said, "I created you."" "You know, he's not a decent human being." "Then shut up and be a man!" "This guy is completely out of his gourd." "There was a falling out." "He was fired by..." "Peter:" "Pardon me, lady." "She called me back and said, "I..." "I've decided I can't work with the guy."" "Man:  ...request for $10,000." "I didn't know what to think." "I mean, it was really a big blow to me." "I went in there, pitched it," "I did this play, I set up this deal, and they're cutting me out of it, you know." "Peter:" "Shut up, little man." "You've lost." "Eddie:" "I'm back in San Francisco and Mitchell's going to fly in and meet me here and we're going to go walking around and see the old sights, go the old Pepto-Bismol Palace." "Sort of have the "Shut Up, Little Man"" "tourist tour experience, I suppose, and I'm looking forward to seeing Mitch." "Um, I have a little surprise for him." "I actually found the address of Tony Newton the only surviving living link to the "Shut Up, Little Man"" "and Peter and Raymond experience." "Excuse me." "Exactly who did you try to call?" "Hey, brother." "Hey, man." "Hey, man." "Good to see you." "What's going on?" "I'm here." "Okay, oh, 'cause there's..." "Tenderloin." "Check this out." "Yeah, because it's just south of Market." "Yeah." "You go, um..." "Uh, go live south of Market..." "South of Market." "You're on welfare." "Looks like a..." "Residential hotel." "We'll have to go there and find him." "Interviewer:" "What are you hoping to get from your meeting with Tony?" "Going to meet Tony..." "it's uncomfortable actually." "But there's sort of fascination about more information about Peter and Raymond." "What's the essence of the relationship?" "Were they lovers?" "Were they not lovers?" "And you know meeting Tony is like, he's the actual only living link on the planet besides Mitchell and I, but he actually lived with them." "But, you know, all that being said, you know," "Tony is a pretty scary, disturbing character, so I feel like we're going to have to tread lightly." "Mitch:" "Uh, my Uncle Tony lives here in 301." "I just want to go and say hi to him." "Man:" "Okay, I need your ID." "Mitch:" "Sure." "Mitch:" "Hi, Tony?" "Tony:" "Yep." "Eddie:" "Are you Tony?" "We... we're working on a film project based on Raymond Huffman." "Remember old Raymond?" "Yes." "You used to work with him?" "Yeah." "And we were wondering if you would... if you would be interviewed for the film?" "Mitch:" "Could we talk to you for a little bit?" "Eddie:" "We could pay you for your time." "Tony:" "Eddie:" "Come on, man, it's your chance for fame and glory." "Eddie  Mitch:" "Mitch:" "Well, how..." "Well, you know, it's..." "Who... who did?" "Oh, they did?" "Eddie:" "All the time, right?" "Oh, fuck." "Mitch:" "I think the first experience I had with somebody really..." "like, feeling like somebody was preying on the material was my experience with my friend at the time, David Stein." "Well, well, well." "Hi, buddy." "Good to see you." "Oh, my God." "Mitch:" "A person living in the apartment below him was affiliated with Zebra Films." "Peter:" "Little man.." "..became familiar with the "Shut Up, Little Man" recordings and approached David and said," ""Hey, we should try and make a movie out of this."" "And next thing I know, David is coming to me saying, "Hey..." "Peter:" "Little man." ""...andI here are going to contact Peter, we're going to make a movie..."" "I was just completely blown away by this." "Bewildered." "I think the last time you and I had any contact was, like, 1994." "Okay." "'Cause '92, '92, I was living in south of Market, and that's when I had met..." "Peter:" "Little man." "And that's when, you know, I turned him on to the recordings." "He's like, "Oh wow, this is great!" "How cool." "Let's go make this movie." Right, right..." "You know, so on and so forth." "And then that's when you and I became separated because of, you know, what we did Right, right." "And how we went about doing it." "Right, right..." "I remember once you were exposed to the material... you..." "I don't know, it was because of your association with..." "Peter:" "Little man." "I don't remember the details..." "..He wanted to make the movie and I was, like, "All right, well, I'll help you make the movie."" "Uh-huh." "But it was like..." "And then we talked to his entertainment lawyer and she's like, "Look, if you guys want to make this movie, you've got to get his release." Mmm-hmm." "You know, because the recordings that Eddie and Mitchell made, they obviously didn't get any permission Mmm-hmm." "To record them, so as far as they're concerned, they really don't have a concern." "And I was, like, "Oh, really?"" "You know, it was kind of a personal attack on me." "Yeah." "From you at the time." "Yeah." "Because it was like, you know, you..." "I remember we had this sort of tearful exchange almost, Right." "Because we had become so close." "Yeah." "And saying, "David, you're... choosing the film over our friendship." Yeah." "And... and then, that was what you chose to do." "That was it." "Oh, well..." "Would you have done anything different?" "Oh, I would have never done it." "I would have not certainly thrown away my relationship with you, but... you know, you're 21 years old, 22 years old, you're hungry, you want to... you want to get your first movie made," "you're in San Francisco, you know, all that stuff..." "And, at that time, you know, anything and everything went." "Rosenthal:" "I was just a fan of the "Shut Up, Little Man" tapes like everybody else." "And when the comic books would come out I would buy those, and you know, I just..." "I loved the stuff." "But it wasn't until I was contacted by Gregg Gibbs, who had done the play..." "He had the idea to promote a film project." "So he came to me and he showed me the script for the play and he showed me a video of the play." "I was fascinated and got very excited about the idea of doing a film." "I had a grand vision for the film." "I wanted Brando and Nicholson as the... as..." "as Pete and Ray." "We could build this set and we'd get these guys and we'd just get the alcohol flowing and make it real and we'd just shoot for three days straight until we get it and then we'd just... have the most amazing movie ever made." "The whole issue of ownership and rights was crucial." "I hired a big-time Los Angeles entertainment attorney to sort through all of the issues and determine what the proper course was." "The kids made the tapes, but sent them out with an anti-copyright notice on them." "Then when they later claimed copyright, the question is, "Can you do that?"" "Can you... can you change your mind like that once you've let the cat out of the bag?" "The other question is, can you copyright material that's recorded surreptitiously?" "Then there was the other issue of a contract that was alleged to exist." "Peter, since he's still alive, you need to get him to sign a release saying that," ""Yes, you can use my likeness and image..." and things like that." "Now, how we went about that..." "No, I don't know if you know the true story or not." "I want to hear the story about that." "Okay, well..." "Yeah, we knock on his door and, "Who is it?"" "Right." "And we're like, uh, we're like," ""Yes, it's David Stein and..." "Peter:" "Little man." "We want to talk to you about doing a story about your life."" "Uh-huh." "So, we go in and of course, you know, he's got this single bed, the empty plastic bottles of vodka and the orange soda." "So yeah, we're, like, five, six drinks into it and, sure enough, um, I went to use the bathroom and I come back and I see..." "Peter:" "Little man." "...there he is, just making out with Peter." "Oh, Jesus." "He makes out..." "He makes out with him..." "No way!" "No way." "And sure enough, sure enough, we got Peter's signature." "Eddie:" "Oh, my God." "No shit!" "And the rest is history." "Mitch:" "What is it going to take?" "Rosenthal:" "They took Pete out, got him drunk, and then got him to sign this document." "Well, you can't do that, you know?" "So, there was question about every aspect of this situation." "And it seemed to me the only way to unify the rights was to make direct contact with the... the subjects themselves." "Stein:" "At that point, it was like... this looks like to be a free-for-all and whoever makes their project first is the first one that gets made and you're going to have multiple people making multiple projects." "Rosenthal:" "I got a call from George Cothran, who called me out of the blue and started asking me questions about "Shut Up, Little Man"." "I started getting into the whole nitty-gritty of the whole story, the guy who, like, engaged me." "Rosenthal:" "I asked him, "Who are you?" "Why are you asking me these questions?"" ""Oh, I'm just a fan." "I'm just an interested guy."" "Close to the end of it, he says," ""Oh, I'm taping all this for an article."" "And I said, "W... hey..." ""Dude, I didn't know I was on record." "What do you mean?" "What is this?"" "Mitch:" "Ultimately George Cothran from the "SF Weekly"" "got in touch with us, he wanted... telling us he wanted to do a cover story of the whole thing." "A recap of everything that's transpired thus far with the whole "Shut Up, Little Man" phenomenon." "And we thought, "Well, this..." ""Hey, cool, that's great, you know." "Come on out."" "Rosenthal:" "I kind of told him where I was with my project and then all of a sudden I realized that he was trying to find Pete, I was trying to find Pete, and I really stepped up the search." "Rosenthal:" "Well, if the agreement seems reasonable to you..." "Umm... we could sign that and I could give you the money, and then we could talk for a few minutes and then I'll leave you alone." "Okay." "Rosenthal:" "Okay, show this cheque here." "And then I just hand it to you." "So... it will be good." "Pardon?" "Rosenthal:" "It will be good, I assure you of that." "Peter:" "Mm-hmm." "My interviews with Pete were done in three segments:" "One where I reached him myself, and then, I guess it's the next day," "I come back and George Cothran, coincidentally, we show up at the same time." "Uh, I need to find out, uh... where everybody got to know me and..." "Man:" "Can I tell you the story?" "Because I know the whole story." "What's this all about?" "Yes." "Okay." "Please do." "Okay." "What is your name again?" "My name is George Cothran." "George Kaufman." "So anyway, this is as best as I can explain it, Mr. Haskett." "In 1987, you were living at 237 Steiner Street in apartment 3." "Correct?" "Correct." "Yeah." "Two young gentlemen in their mid to late twenties, named Mitchell D and Eddie Lee Sausage, moved in next door to you." "And some of the tumultuous disagreements you used to have with your roommates," "Raymond Huffman and Tony Newton, would... they could hear it in their apartment because the walls were thin and your arguments sometimes were rather loud." "They decided that, for whatever reasons, that it would be interesting to tape those arguments." "I understand also that they would sneak microphones into your window." "Okay, so, this is what happened." "Between 1987 and 1989, they made a series of tapes, cassette tapes." "About 10 hours' worth." "They sent them to friends, who then copied them..." "Where did they live?" "They lived right next door in apartment four." "They lived in four, you lived in three, right next door." "Okay, they lived in four?" "I don't recall them." "Cothran:" "You would say to Ray, "Shut up, little man." "Shut up, little man."" "And they found that funny the way, you know, 20-somethings find things ironic and funny." "They copied the tapes many, many, many times over and they sent the tapes all over the world." "All over the world they sent the tapes." "And you became something of a celebrity." "You and Ray and Tony became something of celebrities." "Sort of pop culture celebrities, if you follow me." "Then, wait, the story gets better." "That's true." "That's true." "I did tell Ray, "Shut up, little man."" "I'd forgotten that." "Yeah." "Everyone was taken especially with your sense of humour." "They thought you had a, sort of, a certain élan." "Frankly, a bitchy sort of élan." "You know?" "It's like, "Shut up, little man." "Shut up, little man."" "They found it humorous." "They found it humorous." "Gregg, the playwright who's now working with Henry, found it humorous too, wrote a play about it." "He wrote a play about..." "Rosenthal:" "Even more than humour..." "insightful." "Cothran:" "Insightful, find it insightful and humorous, about human nature and the way relationships work." "You know what the title of the play was?" ""Shut Up, Little Man"." "Oh, wow." "So then, the play..." "throughout this period of time the tapes started multiplying..." "Shut up, little man." "Frankly, you've become a pop culture celebrity, Peter." "And I'm not lying to you." "There are thousands and thousands of teenagers and adults across the country who have listened to these tapes, which are now actually a CD." "And now there's been plays, t-shirts;" "A comic book was done." "A comic book was done, so you know, like, the underground comic books..." "Well, when do I sue?" "Peter:" "Do it." "Do it." "Do it." "If you've got the nerve, do it." "Do it." "Then do it." "Ray:" "You son of a bitch," "I was wounded three times." "Cothran:" "How do you feel that..." "you are now the subject of fascination by playwrights and movie producers and journalists and... and people who are into comic books?" "How does that make you feel?" "I still want that kid down... down south to play me." "Rosenthal:" "Right." "Cothran:" "Which kid?" "Rosenthal:" "I remember." "What's his name?" "Rosenthal:" "Brad Pitt." "Yeah." "Brad Pitt." "Rosenthal:" "That's who he wants to play him." "Shut up, little man!" "Don't call me a little man." "Shut up, little man!" "You're a sick, little old man." "I'm healthy." "You're a sick little man." "And you'll die from the same thing your brother died from." "Good!" "Ray?" "Hmm?" "The neighbours are recording us." "Tell them Peter is a fucking piece of shit and the world would have been better off had he died when he was young." "I despise him." "Uh, little man?" "Uh, where are the cheques I wrote you for the rent?" "I want them." "Man:" "Levy:" "Uh, they're no good." "You said you would be quiet, then do it!" "How do doing, my man?" "So, you know, I've got a little man pad down here, so to speak." "Yeah." "Uh, "Little Man" pad is more like it." "You're not even a... you're just a little man..." "lady, pardon me, lady." "Interviewer:" "So, whenever you're ready." "Just hit the space bar." "Cothran:" "The lads who taped you," "I found out from them..." "Oh,mygoodness." "What?" "Cothran:  ...where you live." "Oh,wow!" "Wow." "Peter:  ...previous surgery they did..." "That's him." "Cothran:" "Throughout this period of time" " the tapes started mult..." "  Peter:" "Shut up, little man." "Ohh, yes!" "Cothran:" "There's been plays, t-shirts;" "A comic book was done." "Comic book..." "He lit up over that." "Peter:" "So, when do I sue?" "Cothran:" "That depends on whether you want to sue or not." "I'm old enough that I don't care no more." "You know what?" "Peter..." "It's too sad for me." "Peter doesn't work alone, he's got to be screeching and walking around the house at the little man." "It's just..." "I understand your sister's point of view, that you pity... that she pitied these guys." "Looking at him, I really do pity him now, you know?" "He's a guy who's just a broken man." "He... he just has no clue." "He's just out of it." "But you know what, just hearing him say," ""Shut up, little man," like that, in the same voice... that brings it all home, you know?" "Yeah, for sure." "It's like Evel Knievel doing one last stunt before he retires, you know?" "Or him coming out of retirement to do it again." "And still nailing the jump, you know?" "Mm-hmm." "Yep, that's what it was like." "Maybe... what else is there to say about them now?" "Maybe it's time we grew up now." "Uhh, you both seemed to have... learned an awful lot about me that I don't even know, so... uh..." "Clowes:" "I'm sure he thought, you know, he just pissed his life away in an alcoholic stupor, and then to have somebody walk into your life randomly one day and say, you know," ""By the way, you have millions of fans around the world" ""and everybody appreciates your clever word play." ""And there's something about you that we all respond to and relate to on a human level."" "I mean, that's just... it's like everybody's dream in a way, or everybody's nightmare, I don't know." "You ain't nothing but a fucking piece of shit." "You're a dirty fighter." "You don't fight right and I can kill you." "And you know it." "You want to try?" "You try it." "You ain't nothing but a..." "Nobody wants to listen to you!" "Don't you understand..." "I'll kill you, you cocksucker..." "You're a little man." "Shut up." "Don't fuck with me, you fucking piece of shit..." "Oh, shut up, little man, you don't have... you don't have the willpower to kill me." "You ain't nothing but a fucking piece of shit..." "You're a sick, little old man." "I am healthy." "You're a sick little man that is dying from the same thing that your brother died of!" "Bullshit!" "I'm not..." "I'm a healthy man." "You're a fucking piece of shit!" "You ain't nothing but a piece of shit." "Why don't you shut up, little man?" "Woman:" "And what's your problem?" "You want to play this game?" "I've got a video camera." "Good." "What is your problem?" "I would like for you to call the police and have them search your apartment." "What the hell's wrong with my apartment?" "There's something wrong with your apartment." "Now everybody's got a cellphone that can record their neighbours fighting." "How would this have been different if Raymond and Peter had been videoed?" "Peter:" "Now you go to bed!" "You get the fuck to bed." "Ray:" "Peter, get away." "Brunetti:" "Maybe this is really horrible that I'm laughing at this." "Who knows, like, maybe the whole thing is kind of immoral." "Rosenthal:" "The issue of morality is really in the recording itself." "Is it acceptable to record people without their knowledge, and then exploit it?" "Eddie:" "I mean, the thing is, you know, living next door to these absolute lunatics, the whole spectrum shifted so much." "Standing outside with the microphone on our veranda at 3:00 in the morning on a Tuesday night, that didn't seem weird anymore." "Peter:" "Shut up, little man." "Shut up, little man!" "Gibbs:" "If they're just in their own house and they're putting on their tape recorder and they're... you know, listening to them, you know, they have every right to do that." "But if they're actually sticking a microphone in somebody's apartment, it's a different, I think it's a different issue." "Peter:" "Shut up, little man!" "Mitch:" "You know, it crossed my mind, of course." ""Am I invading these people's privacy?"" "But that conversation did not only take place within the confines of their dwelling." "It went..." "it exceeded the walls." "It went way beyond the confines of where that conversation was taking place, so therefore, it became public domain." "Peter:" "And I want you to quit stealing my vodka." "Ray:" "Throw it at me, you fat motherfucker." "Peter:" "I'm not a fat motherfucker, asshole." "Ray:" "You ain't nothing else." "Peter:" "Then shut up!" "Brunetti:" "I think at the point when they didn't have to make those recordings for purposes of showing the police, but they realized they were..." "they're just compelling, you know, and then they kind of decided," ""Let's just keep doing it." I think at that point, you're getting into the territory of what art is." "Interviewer:" "Is the act of recording Pete and Ray art?" "Is it art?" "No, I don't think so, no." "I think doing something with what they recorded is art." "Peter:" "I'm tired of you telling me how many friends you have." "You don't have any friends." "Tony has friends, I have friends," "John Silver has friends;" "you don't have friends." "Eddie:" "I felt like an urban field recording artist, you know, someone who is capturing this great material." "Peter:" "Will you stop being such a fool?" "Ray:" "I'm not." "Peter:" "You're on welfare." "Eddie:" "And then adding to the folklore by paying attention to what happened to Peter and Raymond and these little details, like the skull in the window or witnessing Raymond sitting next to a six-foot stuffed bunny." "Capturing these little details of their lives and assembling it as a sort of urban folk tale." "Eddie:" "I think that really great art is a mirror." "If you really bring your whole humanity to anything and you stare into really good, provocative art, and I would say "Shut Up, Little Man" falls into that place, you can see so much." "Mitch:" "This is our second attempt, my second attempt, to go try and see Tony." "They would only allow two of us up here, so it's me and the cameraman." "Um, Ed decided to wait downstairs." "It's SRO rules, Single Resident Occupancy law." "Apparently only two people can go up to visit someone." "So we're here to try to see Tony." "Tony:" "Yeah?" "Tony?" "Hey, Tony, it's Mitch." "How are you?" "I ain't no..." "Tony, I have..." "some money for you to talk to you for a minute." "Would it be..." "I brought you a six pack too." "Can you just... talk to me from the door for one minute?" "I... just have one question for you, Tony." "Huh?" "I just have one question for you." "I'd like..." "I don't hear good." "What?" "Let me ask you one question, Tony." "I want to know the nature of the relationship between Peter and Ray." "What was their relationship all about?" "Okay." "To me, "Shut Up, Little Man" is... is not exploitative." "Had I made a decision at the very, very beginning of this whole thing, like," "I'm going to record these people, take advantage of their sad madness, their hilarious madness, and make money, make myself famous, blah, blah, blah, you know," "I would..." "I would feel like I would be living in purgatory right now." "Well, I could wait for you." "Interviewer:" "So, wh... you know, why do you still do it?" "What's the fascination?" "I... at times I got the point, like," ""What am I doing here?" ""What is this?" "What are we doing?" "Does this... do people really need to hear all this?"" "The impetus behind it was because I had literally boxes of mail." "People are clambering for the stuff." "They pestered me for literally seven or eight years." "And I did feel a responsibility, as the person who brought this into the world, to get it done and get it out there." ""Whatever happened to Tony?"" "Every two or three months I get something from somebody going," ""We in Tulsa love Tony." ""What happened to him?" ""Do you know how we can find Tony?" "We love his lines."" "You know..." "Well, I used to live next door to Peter and Ray." "I used to live in apartment 4 at 237 Steiner." "And you lived with them occasionally in apartment 3." "And there are a lot of people interested in the Peter and Raymond story." "And you're a part of that." ""Hey, you filthy fucking cocksucker," ""I have spent two months searching for more Raymond and Peter CDs" ""and then I found your website, thank God." ""At least I reached the Holy Land" ""where the words of the Prophet Raymond can be heard:" ""'I am the human race, you fucking queer!" "'" ""I've enclosed a money order for $42" ""and I would like to order two 'Shut Up, Little Man' CDs and two cassettes." ""Thanks for being there and recording these timeless words of wisdom."" "Interviewer:" "There's also money involved as well." "Like, you sell death certificates, like, Pete and Ray's death certificates." "So is that art?" "Is selling someone's death certificate part of the art?" "For me personally, I don't like simple art." "I'm bored by it." "It bores the shit out of me." "I don't want to look at it, I don't want to see it," "I don't want to read it, I don't want to hear it." "I want stuff that's going to provoke me, push me around, make me think about my own condition." "And there's always that extra level, like, "What does it say about humanity, about our common human experience?"" "That's the stuff that thrills me." "Well, it's just for your time." "It's not selling out your life, per se." "Um, we just wanted to get... ask you a couple questions about Peter and Ray." "Okay." "Okay." "Oops... okay." "Thank you." "It's okay." "I'm not going to do..." "I'm not going to do anything, Tony." "I'm not going to do anything at all." "This is Bryan." "His name is Bryan Mason." "And my name is Mitch Deprey." "So, I'm going to just set the beer here." "I'm going to put the money here." "Mason:" "Would you prefer if I leave the door open or closed?" "Closed." "I don't want..." "Okay." "Okay, um... may I just sit right here?" "Yes, you have to, Okay." "Because that's the only place that either one of us..." "Okay, okay, okay, well, um, thank you..." "Mitch:" "This is a legitimate project and we're here in San Francisco doing a documentary" " and we're..." "  Tony:" "Well, I know," "You told me that 100 times, but I don't want..." "Mitch:" "Okay, um..." "Do you remember much about Peter and Ray?" "Yeah." "How did you meet Ray?" "Probably in the bar." "In the bar?" "Because it was always interesting to me to hear them fighting." "Peter would say, "Shut up, little man,"" "and Ray would say, "Hey, look, you queer cocksucker..." "I despise queers." Yeah, that..." "So... but we often wondered, why did they continue..." "Yeah..." "Ray would call him a queer and say... call him a queer son of a bitch." ""You was a queer when you were born" ""and you'll be a fucking queer when you die." "And everybody hates you."" "and... you know." "You remember that?" "Yes." "Oh, that's funny." "I had asked you when I was standing at the door about the nature of their relationship." "What was the nature of their relationship?" "Did they have sex?" "No." "Did they have a relationship?" "No, no, no..." "It was just a..." "Ray was straight as... an arrow." "Er, Ray... er," "Peter was fruitier than a goddamn pineapple, you know, but... they were friends, you know." "That's the way..." "that's the way it stayed until they was drunk and when they got drunk they'd be enemies." "Obviously when they were quiet, when they weren't drunk, they seemed to... they got... do you think they got along okay?" "Oh, heck, yes, they got along great." "If one of them was sick or in the hospital, they'd go see each other." "Took care of one another... go to the store for... do laundry for each other, you know, just like... you know, they share." "Right." "But when they got drunk, boy..." "Was it a two-bedroom apartment?" "No." "One bedroom." "It was one bedroom." "Yeah." "So, did they have... did they share the bedroom?" "Yeah." "Okay." "They had single beds, just like this." "Okay." "They had, like, a dining room table in the bedroom between the beds, you know." "Half of the table was Peter's, half was Ray's." "Mitch:" "Oh, really?" "So, they had a line kind of right down the middle?" "Tony:" "But... then, like, after... when Ray died," "Peter wanted to start that shit with me, I guess." "Or he thought he would, you know?" "You mean the fighting?" "Yeah." "But I don't like it..." "He'd want me to yell, I guess, and argue with him, but I wouldn't do that." "So, I just get enough of it and..." "I'd get up and knock the shit out of him." "Yeah." "Eddie:" "Wa... you know, watching this footage for the first time, for me, it's like a collision of so many different emotions." "Like, I'm sitting here utterly riveted." "Um..." "I almost broke down and cried at one point because it's like... you know, when you really understand the kind of devastation of these guys' lives and the fact that, you know... the dynamic between Peter and Ray was like... you know... really screwed up this guy's life too, in a way." "I mean, he's addressing that, you know, just how insanely maddening it was for him." "It's... it's just raw." "It's a bunch of different stuff going on at once, you know." "So, thank you." "Thank you for letting me..." "I didn't know Peter was dead until you said something the other day, but it made me happy." "Really?" "Yeah." "I'm..." "Okay." "Um, I believe... he passed in '95, I think." "I wish I knew where he was buried." "I'd go piss on his fucking grave." "All right, man." "Mission accomplished, man." "Love you, brother." "Yeah, you too, man." "That was so much fun." "No, you got to be on the run." "Brunetti:" "Eddie Lee Sausage and Mitchell," "I'm sure they question, like, whether or not they were doing the right thing and, "Are we bad people for doing this?"" "But you know, like, on the other hand, to deprive us... the rest of us, from hearing this material," "I think that would be a greater evil, like killing history or something." "Clowes:" "That's the amazing thing." "It's a world nobody else would ever be party to, you know." "God knows how many "Shut Up, Little Man" s are going on right around us right now." "And how would you ever have access to that?" "It's a completely sealed off world." "Levy:" "The fact that their story has spread worldwide in this underground current and has remained so vital, it says a lot about us and our fascination with people we don't know, and how we really are voyeurs," "and how when we listen to prank calls and real life kind of things, we feel like we are watching something or listening to something we really shouldn't." "Christian Bale:" "Think for one fucking second!" "Mitch:" "Did they have sex?" "Tony:" "No, no." "Rosenthal:" "That's entertainment." "What can I say?" "Eddie:" "I don't like simple art." "I'm bored by it." "Rosenthal:" "Did you love Ray?" "I mean... did you have a fondness for Ray?" "Did you consider him someone important in your life that you loved?" "Or was he just sort of a casual friend?" "How did...?" "Oh, no, he was very important in my life." "¶ I know you think I'm insane ¶" "¶ I know it's not appealing ¶" "¶ But till I'm feeling no pain ¶" "¶ Guess what I'll be feeling ¶" "¶ I got to get too drunk to dream ¶" "¶ Because dreaming only makes me blue ¶" "¶ I got to get too drunk to dream ¶" "¶ Because I only dream of you ¶" "¶ I got to get too fried to cry ¶" "¶ Or I'll be crying all night long ¶" "¶ I got to get too high to sigh ¶" "¶ Oh, my God, where did I go wrong ¶" "¶ So, why do I get plastered?" "¶" "¶ And why am I so lonely?" "¶" "¶ It's you, you heartless bastard ¶" "¶ You're my one and only ¶" "¶ I got to get too drunk to dream ¶" "¶ Because dreaming only makes me blue ¶" "¶ I got to get too drunk to dream ¶" "¶ Because I only dream of you ¶" "¶ Here they come ¶" "¶ Starting up ¶" "¶ I hear the threats and taunts ¶" "¶ Ruminating from the people next door ¶" "¶ Woe is me ¶" "¶ Go turn on the TV ¶" "¶ Now Pete's watching "Wheel Of Fortune" ¶" "¶ But Ray says it's queer shit ¶" "¶ And he always giggles false, he's a mean motherfucker ¶" "¶ Push comes to shove, Ray on the floor ¶" "¶ And you can bet that by noon it'll happen once more ¶" "¶ And it's a Raymond and Peter confusion ¶" "¶ If you think you can sleep, it's illusion ¶" "¶ Because you know they'll be fighting ¶" "¶ And yelling till 4:00 a.m. ¶" "¶ And here comes Tony who says, "Break it up" ¶" "¶ Raymond tells Peter, "I'm going to fuck you up" ¶" "¶ Peter just fires back with ¶" "¶ "Shut up, little man" ¶" "¶ It's a Raymond and Peter confusion ¶" "¶ Peter says, "Get me some vodka" ¶" "¶ Raymond says, "I'm going to have ¶" "¶ A fucking bowl of soup right now" ¶" "¶ And here comes a call from The Nova Express times ¶" "¶ Accusations of 14 homicide crimes ¶" "¶ Peter tells Raymond, "Ray, you're just fucking up" ¶" "¶ Peter yells ¶" "¶ We go to bed ¶" "¶ But Ray yells back ¶" "¶ "Peter Haskett's a queer piece of shit" ¶" "¶ Says, "I am the human race" ¶" "¶ Corned beef hash on his face ¶" "¶ He says, "I was a killer." When he says it he barks it ¶" "¶ But Peter fires back, "Go live south of Market" ¶" "¶ It's a Raymond and Peter confusion ¶" "¶ Numerous abrasions and contusions ¶" "¶ Ardell's calling ¶" "¶ Looking for Tony, the queer ¶" "¶ He tells Ray, "You don't have any friends" ¶" "¶ Ray tells Pete he farts from both ends ¶" "¶ Tony rambles on ¶" "¶ On how we stripped that fucker down ¶" "¶ And it's a Raymond and Peter confusion ¶" "¶ Their fighting is big noise pollution ¶" "¶ Raymond puts on his shoes to dial 911 ¶" "¶ "You want to stick me with that fork?" Peter says ¶" "¶ Raymond's lounging around in self-made mess ¶" "¶ Says, "If you want to talk to me ¶" "¶ Then shut your fucking mouth" ¶"