"The Disciples are terror struck, they don't know what to do." "Twelve men in fear for their lives" "Just looking at the group being composed I'd say, disaster area." "Yet these terrified men became the founders of a worldwide faith." "None of them ever expected" "It to turn out the way it did" "Modern science can now help us understand how 12 ordinary men from the backwaters of Galilee could end up as giants of history." "The Disciples." "The disciples spread Jesus of Nazareth's message across the ancient world." "Many of them sacrificed their lives for it" "The transformation of this tiny, threatened group into a world religion is a remarkable story." "But to understand it, we need to trace theirjourney from the very beginning." "The story starts as the 1st Century dawns in Galilee," "Jesus and the disciples are still just children, when a band of men protesting about rising taxes and Roman rule stage an uprising in the key city of Sepphoris." "The Romans immediately put down the revolt with complete destruction of the city and killed all the inhabitants or sold them as slaves." "...and it must be a memory, which the locals kept for generations." "In fact during the 1st century Galilee was a hotbed of rebellion." "Helen Bond has studied this social and historical background to the Bible." "We know that there were quite a lot of bandit leaders at the time of Jesus." "We hear of people taking to the hills and going living in caves where other people came to them and they led resistance movements against the Romans." "The disciples grew up against this background." "Some may even have witnessed the Sepphoris rebellion." "Perhaps in Jesus they saw a leader who could free them from the Romans." "Historical breakthroughs are giving us new insights into the lives of the disciples." "The picture that's emerging is vivid and surprising" "One thing's clear from the outset, the Disciples came to Jesus for a set of very different reasons and with very different hopes." "By the time the disciples were in their twenties the first of those reasons may have been financial." "Hefty taxes would have been a constant concern for the four disciples who worked as fishermen" "John," "Brothers Peter and Andrew, and James." "We know that James and John, Peter and Andrew were in a partnership from the gospels, from Luke and so they are under a lot of pressure to catch the fish in order that they meet their obligation both to feed their families" "and to pay the tax collector." "The fishermen were forced into a contract with the tax collector to hand over their catch including fresh fish like carp and sardines, in return for inferior, salted fish." "It was an unfair exchange bound to breed resentment." "All of the fish have been counted from the catch and the agents of the tax collector come and take that away... to go to some of the tables of the rich people in the city." "In return the fishermen are going to receive as a part of their contract ...processed fish, probably salted fish and the feeling that they have at that moment must be we can't eat our own take." "This amounted to enormous financial pressure." "People longed for more control over their lives." "They were looking for a leader to help them fight back." "Maybe they thought that leader was Jesus." "The initial followers of Jesus were attracted to something very practical that dealt with daily life, that dealt with real issues." "We would misconstrue it to call it a purely religious movement." "While some of the disciples may have joined the Jesus Movement to challenge taxes, it doesn't explain why all twelve joined." "In particular it doesn't explain Matthew." "Before he became a disciple he was a tax collector." "We know about Matthew's job from the gospels." "But they don't tell us why he was attracted to Jesus" "For one thing, unlike the fishermen," "Matthew lived the comfortable life of a wealthy man." "James Strange is an archaeologist whose excavations of ancient villages have helped to paint a picture of life in the first century." "People who lived in any village in the Galilee" " their houses from the outside would look absolutely identical." "The only way you could have a luxury good would be inside the house." "You might plaster a room very finely and paint it very nicely but that's only for those inside the house." "No-one outside would have any idea unless they were invited in." "The inside of Matthew's house would have shown that he was far wealthier than his neighbours." "If Matthew were a low-level tax official and only had a few villages assigned to him, he would still be richer than anybody else in any of those villages." "...but his wealth would have made Matthew a hated figure in his community." "Every day he would have faced an uphill struggle just to get the job done." "Richard Horsley is particularly interested in the economic side of life in first century Galilee." "He has found that tax was paid in produce rather than money, and that the Galileans would have devised ways of limiting how much they handed over." "Over the centuries peasants have developed clever ways of avoiding heavy taxes." "Let's say this is the amount of grain that's owed to the Tax Collector." "The peasant brings it in and puts it on the scales, the tax collector sees that it's just the right weight but then when we look inside the basket, see what's actually in there." "Sure enough it's grain but at the bottom sticks and stones and by that device the peasant was able to save some of the grain that he otherwise would have owed to the tax collector." "This daily confrontation could have been the spur for Matthew to join Jesus." "He would be really utterly alone I mean it would be very difficult for him to find people to have just ordinary socialising with." "He'd be in a very precarious position." "And I imagine, to tell you the truth, that he probably would also have to have bodyguards" "By joining Jesus Matthew turned his back on tax collecting and was welcomed, maybe for the first time, into a community." "Perhaps an even more puzzling disciple than Matthew is Judas Iscariot." "Judas has a bad reputation - untrustworthy and disloyal." "But ironically he was the group's treasurer, looking after donations to the group and organising provisions." "So here we have this band of disciples - they're living out of some kind of a common fund and he apparently is the bursar." "He handles all the accounts, keeps track of what we need." "A quartermaster, I think it involves some organisational ability, some trustworthiness, some leadership." "So, far from being the bad boy, when Judas joined the Jesus movement he must have been regarded as one of its most reliable members." "Unfortunately we know very little about the remaining disciples." "There's Thomas, and Philip who's said to come from the same area as the fishermen." "There's a Bartholomew." "And a Simon, known as the Zealot, probably because he was very strict about upholding Jewish religious law." "But there's a controversial theory that Simon, along with Jude and another disciple called James, were actually Jesus' brothers." "They may have been step-brothers rather than blood relatives." "Nevertheless, some experts believe that they were part of Jesus' family." "The brothers of Jesus that are named in the gospels turn out to be lo and behold James, Simon and Jude." "I think we have to entertain at least the possibility since Jesus when he dies passes on the control of his community to his own brother, James" "Whatever the blood ties between Jesus and some of his disciples, it's clear that these twelve men were very different from one another." "Such variety might make an interesting group, but you'd think a radical movement such as this would need like-minded recruits." "Cary Cooper specializes in group psychology." "We asked him to apply modern psychological principles to what we know about the disciples, to find out how hard it would be for such a group to work together and become founders of a new faith." "When I look at the disciples I would've thought as a psychologist, if I was just looking at the group being composed I'd say disaster area, coming from totally different kind of backgrounds, a tax collector, people who are revolted by the taxes," "a zealot, all sorts of different characters -very different." "Now if they have a leader that could kinda resolve their, their differences and the potential conflicts that are gonna come on, on board and got them to think about what the ultimate objective is, and how that objective could meet their own, personal needs." "Then it would work." "These twelve men, from such diverse backgrounds, did have a strong leader in Jesus." "And they had a mission." "They may have been prepared to give working together a chance if it meant they would see some action against the Romans." "But following Jesus was never going to be easy." "There's evidence that traveling together as a group may have been a harsh enough experience in the first century to put these very different personalities to the test." "Galilee is about 35 miles across." "The disciples could walk it in a day or so" "But the terrain can be rugged." "In these places there is little protection from the elements or from robbers." "Life on the road is quite hard actually... there are people who regard that as their territory sometimes and they don't like you coming through... there are wild animals you have to think about, in the ancient world actually lions and bears are" "the two prime predators you had to think of." "As if life on the road wasn't dangerous enough, the Bible records that" "Jesus told the disciples to leave their possessions behind." "Even so there are some basics that experts believe they would have needed." "For example in very bad weather you really need to wear a wool mantle like this to dress yourself in." "You can wrap it tightly around yourself and sleep in it like a tent." "You can also use it as a raincoat 'cause it is impervious to water." "If someone is not friendly and has not given you fire, you have to have a way to make fire, you'll need a piece of iron, a piece of flint, and a scorched piece of linen" "so that you can nap your own fire." "Otherwise you're in a terrible position." "Now in terms of security - you might need to defend yourself from wild animals, from predators..." "Here is a sword." "It's rather small but you get the idea." "When Jesus is arrested two of the disciples have swords." "You can put this then on a belt around your thigh underneath your clothes." "If the disciples did leave everything behind to follow Jesus, even something as fundamental as finding food could be a problem." "There's a clue in the Bible as to how they fed themselves." "In one story they are said to take grain from a field." "This may sound as though the Disciples turned into thieves, but Jewish law made provision for the poor, including travellers." "If you have a field because you're a landowner and you're harvesting the field you have to leave bits, the sort of the corner of the field untouched so that the poor can come and collect from it." "One of the most important things you have to do in ancient Judaism is practice hospitality -part of the reason for this is very simple" "You're at the mercy of people when you're travelling, there are no hotels, there are no inns, there are no nothing." "So both in Jewish law and in Jewish custom you practice hospitality." "When they traveled the disciples left behind more than their livelihoods." "Many had other responsibilities." "Most of the disciples seem to have been married" " we certainly know that Peter was married" "And I think it would have been very difficult for his wife and children left behind." "The disciples were the people who brought in the money." "They were the ones who caught the fish or who worked on the land and I think it would have left the families in very, very difficult circumstances." "However, we may be wrong to assume that once they left, they never returned." "We have a number of references to them going out and it couldn't be more than a few days and then coming back again." "So I don't think we should picture it as a lot of the movies and popular books have the idea he's always on the road, day and night, travelling from the day he starts to the day he dies - there's lots of time in between." "The disciples and Jesus may have gone home at night." "we do have the story of Peter who's called by Jesus, he leaves everything, and then only a few verses later he's going to have tea with his mother in law." "And so that gives the impression that maybe the break, at least in the early period when Jesus' ministry was located in Galilee." " maybe the break wasn't quite so clear cut as we're often led to believe." "As Jesus' ministry grew, there were occasions when the disciples had to travel well beyond Galilee." "On these journeys they really did have to rely on the hospitality of strangers." "But it's a little known fact that the disciples had something to offer in return." "Something that was much sought after and rarely available." "When we dig up tombs most people in the tombs in their forties and fifties when they die" "And the mortality rates look like they do for third world nations today 'cause after all a very ordinary infection could simply kill you because they had no way to deal with that" "There was no formal health system in first century Galilee." "Villagers depended on local healers who had developed home cures that seemed to work." "Jesus had a big reputation as a healer." "But so too did his disciples." "If they went to a village they seemed to have two main tasks." "One was to announce the kingdom of God was upon you." "The other was to heal the sick." "And if they successfully healed the sick then they could have their daily bread." "They might have a place to lay their heads" "The fact that the disciples could heal should not come as a surprise." "Faith healing has a long history." "For centuries, it was the only healing people had." "It's not at all unusual to pray to the Gods if you're a pagan, or to God if you're a Jew for healing." "That's absolutely acceptable." "And people who specialised in praying to God for healing are also very well known..." "For delivering healing but delivering it in association with their religious movement would be perfectly understandable and acceptable." "Now modern medicine may be able to explain how it can work." "Low and a little medial, so we need to go higher and lateral." "In Houston, Texas, surgeon Bruce Moseley treats patients with arthritic knee pain." "In a recent experiment he treated three different groups." "All patients were taken down to the operating room and had incisions made in the knee." "But only the first group received routine surgery." "The second group had a smaller operation and the third had no treatment at all." "The results of the experiment were quite remarkable." "They all improved." "They all got benefit from the surgery." "They all reported less pain." "They all reported improved function and they were all very satisfied." "But interestingly the pretend surgery group did just as well as the real surgery groups." "Tim Perez was one of Dr Moseley's first patients." "I could be walking and a sharp pain would hit my knee and it'd give you know, you know when you're in pain how you just don't have no strength at all." "Tim was in the group that had no surgery." "But his knee got better." "That was eight years ago and Tim still feels better." "And I call that a miracle because it's something that didn't take no medicine, didn't take no nothing to heal it." "So it had to be the mind." "In medical terms Tim was part of the placebo group" " which means he didn't receive a real treatment." "Physicians are now closer than ever to understanding how the placebo effect works" "I think the placebo works through a psychological or an emotional impact that a treatment has on a patient." "And it ties into what the patient's expectations and beliefs are." "If the patient expects and believes that a treatment is going to be effective it almost certainly will." "And now your hands in front and over your head, as high as you can go." "And if people today can get better because they believe in the doctor's ability to heal them, maybe the same thing could have been happening back in the first century." "Dr Moseley still believes God was involved in the disciples' healing but does not discount the importance of the patients' belief that they can be cured." "You can certainly draw parallels between what Jesus and the disciples were doing and what a doctor does today in both situations they have a belief that the healer's going to help them..." "And you could certainly imagine that some of the benefit that the ancient healers have had is from a placebo effect." "In part thanks to their ability to heal Jesus and the Disciples began to attract larger and larger crowds" "But for all the good work the disciples did, healing could be a deeply frustrating experience." "The Bible tells us sometimes they just couldn't do it." "In the gospel of Matthew, there's a story of a man who brings his son to Jesus and his son is exhibiting symptoms we would call epilepsy." "And he complains that the disciples had failed to heal his son." "Well Jesus does heal the son and later the disciples come and say well why couldn't we do it?" "What was the problem?" "And Jesus says it was your lack of faith." "The reference to the disciples' lack of faith rings true with modern doctors." "Physician Bruce Moseley believes, that even today, the amount of confidence a doctor has in his treatment can affect the outcome." "...the surgeon has a high expectation and a faith that their treatment's going to have a benefit, then I believe that the patients can realise that, they can feel that, they can sense that and the more confident the surgeon is... then I'm sure the more confident the patient is that" "that treatments going to work..." "But the disciples' occasional inability to heal may have been symptomatic of a more fundamental problem." "To have complete faith in Jesus as a leader, the disciples needed to share his vision and for much of the time they appeared to do so." "But a closer examination of the Gospels reveals that the Disciples did not always have the same outlook as their leader." "Indeed there's evidence of underlying tensions and disagreements flaring up in public." "One instance is when Jesus tells his disciples to take their message to the Samaritans." "Today the word 'Samaritan' describes a do-gooder." "But to a first century Jew he was the enemy." "If Jesus told me we had to go through Samaria my heart would sink." "I would say oh no." "We've had hostility between us and the Samaritans for 500 years and it doesn't look like it's going to get better" "The relationship between Jews and Samaritans was a very difficult one." "It seems to have gone back to a problem over what was the proper site for the temple." "The Samaritans said that the sacred site should be on their holy mountain whereas the Jews said that the holy site should be in Jerusalem." "Samaritan villagers were not interested in what these Jewish preachers had to say." "And they threw the disciples out." "Instead of acting with humility, the disciples were furious." "It was a flagrant breach of Jesus' teachings on loving your enemies." "James and John were so angry they wanted to send down fire on the village and obliterate it." "I think today we would see this as a kind of a racism but it's even more than racism, if you think about what they were really saying, they were saying let's kill these people." "Whereas Jesus says no, that's not the way he works." "He'll offer them salvation but if they don't accept it that's up to them and he simply goes on to another place." "The disciples were notjust at odds with Jesus." "On more than one occasion the Bible says they argue between themselves about which of them is the greatest." "James and John even ask Jesus if they can have thrones next to his in the new kingdom." "I think this shows that there's a lot more competitiveness and rivalry between them than we often think." "In many ways this is only to be expected because first century society was full of squabbles over honour and shame and status and so in this the disciples are really just behaving like typical first century men." "These squabbles may have been typical but according to psychologist Cary Cooper they could escalate into damaging power struggles." "We have in almost all groups, a James and a John." "And the reason I say that is because they're a bit fiery, a bit revolutionary." "But I think that they actually kind of want a leadership role." "I think they're people who you, one has to manage quite carefully" " otherwise their innate needs for leadership or to be in a position of influence, or to be rebellious, will get in the way." "The disciples managed to keep their differences in check... most of the time." "But on one occasion these divisions threatened the very survival of the movement." "A woman came in and poured expensive perfume over Jesus." "The disciples were not impressed." "The disciples are annoyed that this woman has wasted this oil on Jesus." "They say she should have taken it away." "She should have sold it and given the money to the poor." "But Jesus sees things differently." "He says she's done a beautiful thing." "As treasurer of the group Judas seems particularly upset by this act." "Every group has disagreements, but the consequences of Judas' reaction were catastrophic." "The gospels of Mark and Matthew say" "Judas goes to the religious authorities to talk about leading them to Jesus." "But for now the other disciples appear to know nothing of Judas' actions." "They are excited because after three years on the road their leader has just made a momentous decision." "Jesus was about to take his disciples to Jerusalem, the power base of the authorities." "At last they thought - we are about to see some action." "They were in for a shock." "The disciples entered Jerusalem with Jesus on what's become known as Palm Sunday." "Jesus received a rapturous welcome." "But it couldn't have been a more politically sensitive time." "Jerusalem was packed with pilgrims come to celebrate the festival of Passover" " remembering how Moses had led their ancestors out of captivity in Egypt." "According to Jim Charlesworth, a biblical scholar based in Jerusalem," "Passover would have prompted the disciples to think about freedom and overthrowing the Romans." "It is a time of great excitement." "The Jews are going to celebrate Passover." "What does that mean?" "They're going to re-enact and relive" "God's salvation of his people ...so it's a very volatile time." "It's a time when everybody is at the peak of excitement." "The highlight of the festival was a shared meal later that same week." "But as they settled down to eat what has become known as the Last Supper," "Jesus was unusually subdued." "Suddenly in the midst of the meal Jesus starts to talk about his death." "He picks up the bread and says this is my body." "He picks up the cup and says this is my blood." "And he starts talking about doing things in remembrance of him." "And I think the disciples must have wondered what on earth he was on about..." "It's not clear why the disciples didn't understand what Jesus was talking about." "Perhaps all along they had just been waiting for some kind of uprising." "The death of their leader was not part of the plan." "But what happens next seals their fate." "Judas sets off a chain of events that would lead to Jesus' crucifixion." "He makes his fatal deal with the authorities." "He agrees to betray Jesus." "In return he gets thirty pieces of silver" "If we're right that the piece of silver in question is the Roman and Greek dinarius then he's getting about thirty day's wages in silver." "And that happens to the price in some slave markets for a slave." "Not much for someone who would come to be worshipped as the Son of God." "But Judas nonetheless accepts the money." "He leads the guards to where he knows the group will be." "Suddenly everything they had worked towards begins to unravel." "The disciples panic and lash out." "The disciples are terror-struck." "They don't know what to do." "Peter's reaction is to draw his sword and to cut off the ear of the High Priest's slave." "And I think that's quite understandable." "They really don't know what's happening." "They don't know at that stage whether the arresting party are just going to arrest Jesus or whether they've come for them as well." "In fact only Jesus is arrested." "The disciples themselves scatter." "We have this single line... in the gospels" "'They all forsook him and fled.'" "And I think we should see this on very human terms." "It's nothing very theological or profound" "They just got scared and they ran" "All the work of Jesus and the disciples undone by one man's act of treason." "But some experts are not so sure that Judas was to blame." "A new theory suggests that a fundamental mistake was made in translating the word 'betray' and that Judas did not in fact do this." "In Greek the word simply means 'to hand over'." "It does not have the more sinister implications of 'betrayal'." "Indeed there's other evidence that Judas was not a traitor." "Everyone, including the religious authorities knew Jesus and where to find him." "What did he betray?" "Does he betray who Jesus is?" "Everybody knew who Jesus was?" "Did he betray where Jesus can be found?" "It makes the gospels are very clear that he goes to his customary places so if we're not sure what he betrayed how could he be called the betrayer?" "Certainly when Judas comes with guards to arrest Jesus, his greeting is strange for a traitor - a kiss." "Does a kiss suggest betrayal?" "In all our ancient sources" " Philo, Josephus and the New Testament we hear that a kiss means a greeting or a farewell." "There's no such thing as a kiss of betrayal." "What's convinced some experts that Judas didn't mean to betray Jesus is his response when he hears that Jesus is to be executed." "He throws the money back at the men." "Obviously something has gone wrong, he then is so disturbed he goes out and he hangs himself." "But if Judas didn't want to 'betray' Jesus there still must have been a reason for his deal with the authorities." "I think one thing we could suggest is that he thought this would help Jesus to have the audience with a High Priest." "This would help the man that could do miracles, even bring people back from the dead to confront his enemies straight on and establish the kingdom that he so earnestly wanted to establish..." "This is a controversial theory and not everyone is convinced." "There's a certain attractiveness in that I think, in that it makes what Judas has done more understandable." "But I think that's very unlikely." "All the gospels suggest that Judas did betray Jesus for whatever reason and we'll perhaps never know what that reason was." "Intentionally or not, the fact remains that Judas hastened the death of Jesus." "If the disciples had any doubt that Jesus' arrest meant the end of the group, they must have been certain the next day." "As their leader was crucified it isn't clear where the disciples went." "They could have gone to a safe house where they had had the Last Supper." "There seems to be some kind of a connection there when they rent that place or arrange for that place" "That, I think we have to assume that when they fled, they really fled." "They wanted to stay out of danger." "The disciples were at their lowest ebb." "This is a critical stage because they've lost their leader." "All groups need their leader and particularly an inspirational leader like Jesus -very, very critical." "There is no real deputy, so that's a bit of a problem." "So the group is likely to split up or have... enormous difficulties." "With their leader dead, the disciples were left utterly depressed and broken." "And yet we know that these forlorn individuals founded what went on to become a major world faith" "Clearly something happened to change their fate." "Within days of Jesus' execution there were stories of him rising from the dead." "Maybe this is what kept the disciples going?" "All the disciples are together in the upper room." "They'd got the doors firmly shut because they were worried about the Jewish authorities." "And suddenly Jesus appears in the room and says 'Peace be with you'." "This I think is a significant moment in the gospel story because the thing that really differentiates the Jesus movement from similar messianic movements in the first century is they're full of the conviction that their messiah has survived death," "and so this is a symbolic empowering moment." "This belief that Jesus was still alive was one thing, but if the movement was to continue, they had to convince others that Jesus had risen from the dead." "And that wasn't going to be easy." "For this reason many think another event was crucial for the survival of the movement." "It's become known as Pentecost and it took place several weeks after Jesus appeared to the disciples." "Since that appearance they had been spending their time together in prayer." "And something very strange happens to them" "They feel this mighty wind rushing through the building," "they see the holy spirit like little flames of fire resting above each other's heads" "and somehow they feel empowered to go out and preach to people." "And the amazing thing is that everybody seems to be able to understand their preaching in whatever language they natively speak." "It's this religious event that psychologist Cary Cooper believes transforms the group." "Pentecost, in my view, is the critical event for the group, and the reason is that because they don't have a leader and the shared experience brings them together." "It motivates them, it encourages them to go out and preach and to convert people and to share their common experiences." "It's a kind of surrogate leadership role." "Before Pentecost the odds for the Disciples founding a new faith were slim - their different backgrounds, their in-fighting and above all the loss of their leader." "It was a remarkable transformation." "On the surface it seemed to be simply a psychological shift." "But there may be more to it than that." "There is now neurological evidence that religious experience causes a real and quantifiable change in the brain." "Get the vein for you, get the IV in." "So we don't want you to bend your arm too much, because it might kink the catheter" "Professor Andrew Newberg is a neurobiologist at Pennsylvania University" "He's been studying the effects of such experiences on Buddhist monks and Catholic nuns." "We had them go through a practice such as meditation or prayer, and at the height of that practice we would inject them through an intravenous line, a line that was in their vein, with a material that would allow us to measure the blood flow at the time of the injection it then is capturing a picture" "of what her brain is doing at that moment that she is in that heightened state of prayer..." "We can scan the brain some time later to see and see what the snap shot is of what was going on in the brain during that particular practice." "The scan taken during prayer on the right is compared to that of a normal brain" " said to be in its baseline state." "It recorded a change in the part of the brain that helps us to sense everything around us." "This area had less activity during prayer which showed up as the colour yellow." "We are not so aware of our surroundings when activity in this part of the brain is reduced, and our sense of self lessens." "Instead the mind begins to feel that it's at one with the whole universe." "In fact some people say that's when they become strongly aware of the presence of God." "If they go far enough in their prayer session then they would lose all sensory information and we could think that this would be associated with a complete blurring of the boundary between the self and God and all things in the world." "Sister Celeste took part in the study." "She agrees that she can feel closer to God during prayer." "The experiment shows for me that when we are in religious experience that there is something happening within us, that within our brain something is being shown..." "For the scientists this experiment means that we have to take seriously the idea that religious experience can cause measurable physiological change." "When we look at the disciples, we can ask the question as to whether or not that transformative spiritual moment actually effected a change in the brain that changed who they were, how they felt, how they thought about everything in their lives and that" "that was what changed the direction of what they did" "Certainly after this experience the disciples were no longer just members of the Jesus movement." "They were leaders of a new faith." "It's when they cease being disciples, meaning students and start being apostles and messengers on their own." "And that was the key event for, it's the distinction between the periods." "The disciples must have undergone an incredible personal journey ...at the beginning they were just ordinary humble fishermen, but by the end of the story they become leaders of what eventually becomes a world religion." "The disciples don't fit the conventional image of holy men." "They were rough and flawed, capable of jealousy, bitterness, selfishness, even violence." "The New Testament makes it very clear these are men of flesh and blood, these are really human people with human wishes." "I find it much more fascinating to realise that they're very much like you and me."