"[Int. ]You are familiar with the term, "The Rat Line"" "I know it is a miss-nomal." "But you've heard the term?" "I assume that you don't believe it was a line for rats." "Not at all used... [former operator of the "Rat Line"] It was invention of the guys "post factum. "" "Have you not agreed with that description of it." "It is outrageous... it is offensive..." "Well, explain why." "Well it is derogatory." "Father Draganovic has supplied the documents for Barbie?" "Yes, he was chief organizer of the enterprise." "And the Americans came to him to Rome... to ask him to do services of sending out of Europe people who are American Intelligence services." "How did they approach him?" "Oh it was simple, he was public person... living in the Croatian seminary in Rome, for priests." "And therefore American services from Salzburg..." "CIC... could contact him through different intermediaries in Rome." "Draganovic was the main outside organizer... and the one who procured all documents and bank affairs... and similar things, because I myself was under no protection" "He was a priest... and priest robes always protect somebody like in New York!" "Pope Pius 1 was very much upset by Europe's folly to the communism and was eager to help everybody who needed help." "The Secretary of State was Giovanni Montini, the future Pope Paul VI." "He would defend people, with his recommendation for help." "Did this include SS?" "I never personally ever asked anybody anything." "Whoever came..." "like in the most famous Catholic tradition... "No questions asked"." "[district attorney in Brooklyn] You don't have a Rat Line only created for Klaus Barbie..." "It would be too expensive..." "and it wouldn't have such a name." "It's hard for me to believe that Barbie was an isolated incident." "There is that segment of the Jews who would never stop before turning the last stone." "And therefore such Jews, helped by immense riches in this country, want to prosecute Barbie." "You think that they're vengeful people?" "Oh yes." "The revenge for what?" "To fabricate the crime, and then accuse somebody of having committed those crimes... and hang." "I see." "Do you ever get the feeling, Holtzman, that only Jews and old Nazis are still interested in Jews and old Nazis?" "Actually not... actually the whole problem with Nazi war criminals, for example... was brought to my attention by a non-Jew... who was horrified, as a human being that our government could protect Nazi war criminals living here... and allow them to stay here." "Among them is the former congressman Holtz" "who started it, and now that she wants to run once more, and in Brooklyn are those Jews who want to prosecute, persecute, Nazis, collaborators, and everything" "what comes under that roof, to the last end." "Until the last blood of them is not... is gone." "There's a view that somehow the holocaust is simply a Jewish problem." "The dangers of the holocaust were for millions of no-Jews as well." "And the threat that it represents to the world today... is to all humanity, not only Jews." "The policy that gave rise to the use of someone like Klaus Barbie... suggests that it could have been much more widespread." "And indeed, if US government officials were willing to bring Nazi murderers to our very shores, there's no reason to think they wouldn't have worked with them abroad." "From that moment, Americans had nothing to do but to pay." "And therefore so much for documents and transportation... and whatever money..." "Did you supply the documents?" "Yes..." "In Augsburg, CIC Augsburg knew what CIC in Salzburg was doing..." "Neagoy went to Salzburg..." "Americans like to travel." "And there's a nice overnight in Salzburg or Munich." "All on expense account." "An expense account..." "there is never enough!" "And Neagoy told them "I bring you in. "" "And Altman travelled, and Draganovic would make him whatever you know." "And George Neagoy... you knew him?" "Oh yes, we were good friends." "He came with the American Intelligence, and... was eager to hear what happened to such people..." "Any problem with providing police and protection are needed..." "[George Neagoy - agent in retirement] No... no... no pictures!" "..." "So sorry." "Chris... did you explain that we were making a film?" "I thought that I had mentioned that, yes." "Interview yes... but no pictures." "I'm not involved any more... but the Barbie thing, that's?" "My conclusion was that the CIA was not directly involved." "Now what does that mean?" "It means that one particular part of our bureaucracy was not involved... and another was." "I met at least 3 different American intelligence services..." "[Bolivian Minister of the Interior] [Spanish] I think Barbie was recruited by the CIA." "before he left Europe for South America." "Everything suggests he was working for the CIA." "He received protection from the US security." "To travel freely in Europe, the US, Spain, you needed the kind of protection Barbie had, as he was a man sought internationally for his crimes." "[businessman] We saw in Barbie/Altman a German who had done his duty for his country." "In this case, if Bolivians were faced with a war," "I think we would have done our duty too." "[French] At the Interior Ministry where I waited hours... for interrogation." "I sat in an armchair in the office of the chief of intelligence." "I saw a man in a coat enter... not tall..." "Short... with a little hat..." "[Int. ] A round one." "Yes, and he had blue eyes." "But he was unusual in contrast to the others." "He came in and spoke with this gentleman..." "Then left through another door." "The previous governments really didn't want to arrest him." "[Interpreter Spanish] They didn't want to arrest Barbie." "He headed efforts to organize repressive forces in this country." "[French] Were you tortured?" "Interrogated... decently decently at first..." "then very roughly... and after... very, very roughly." "[Int. ] For long?" "For days?" "Yes." "And months later, they came back for..." "Information?" "Yes, I spent 1½ years in prison." "But the rough questioning lasted about 8 months." "It was during General Barrientos' rule that a unit called the "Furmont" was organized." "It was Barrientos' private paramilitary squad, organized for political repression." "Then came General Be nzer, with whom Barbie collaborated even more openly." "They carried out arrests, interrogations, murders." "[French] It was under General Benzer, in March 1972." "[Int. ]" " Why?" " I'm a journalist." "We wrote about abuses under the Benzer regime." " Human rights?" " Yes, mostly." "I knew some of those who disappeared." "I could have witnessed their deaths, because I was in a prison cell right next to their friends." "Sent to their deaths?" "Later I saw him in the street with the Mr De Castro." "I thought... "I know him!"." "It was years ago." "[Int. ] You'd seen him at the ministry?" " In the place of torture." " Yes." "[bodyguard]" "The gentleman we've been talking about must be in the next room." "[Spanish] The highway must have been very bad, no?" " The Bolivian part too?" " Yes." " In Santana?" " Oh, sure." "This is the photo I got of de Castro with Barbie in the street." "Whenever you saw Barbie in the street, Alvaro was with him." "Alvaro de Castro... plaintiff for many of Barbie's activities." "[Associated Press, La Paz] You two have deals then, I guess." "No, because he was arrested a few months ago, was held for several weeks and interrogated... his pictures flashed all over the world as a paramilitary Neo-Nazi and Barbie's friend... so he's very upset about it." "But does he give, or know you?" "Yeah... for a fee." "A lot of them?" "I think he's made some good money off Barbie." "[Spanish] Later, I'll need a card from you." "Sure... we can work that out." "In his possession they found a whole bunch of photographs..." "Nazi paraphernalia, literature, Mussolini posters, Hitler posters, and so on..." "Are you sure that the Nazi paraphernalia wasn't planted by the current government...?" "No... because there were photos in the paraphernalia of Alvaro de Castro doing "Heil Hitler"." "And that wasn't planted." "I think it'd be interesting to ask him about the arms dealing." "I'm certain Alvaro De Castro was the representative from this Austrian company." "And there are also reports of people seeing De Castro doing torture sessions here in La Paz." "[Spanish] It is now 2.14... 3.40... 2.46." "His Austrian firm was dealing with the drug king... what's his name, Don..." "Roberto Suárez... the cocaine kingpin." "He's in hiding somewhere here." "Oh yes... the law is after him." "And he uses Steyr weapons." "[Spanish] Well, the time is here" "In Bolivia, there is no "official" time." "Nothing's official." "De Castro must be getting impatient in there." "Well, his demeanour is charming, he looks like a gentleman." "He's really not going to reveal anything that's sensational..." "or anything that's critical of Barbie or himself." "[De Castro, Spanish] Were you asleep?" "You know Peter, don't you?" "I'm sorry I'm late..." "I'm sorry I'm this way..." "I'm having the altitude sickness." "So I'm taking afternoon naps." "Alvaro De Castro, have you had any communication with your friend Klaus Barbie... since he's been jailed in Lyon?" "[Spanish] Yes, I had news from him." "Almost since the week he got to France..." "I get one about every 8 or 9 days." "Is he in good health?" "[De Castro] I doubt it's fun being in jail." "Someone tells me that Dom Roberto Suárez, the drug king in Bolivia... receives arms from an Austrian firm." "And you are the representative in Bolivia of that Austrian firm." "Could you tell me if that information is correct?" "[Spanish] Very well." "There's been a lot of talk in this country that Altman and I and the Austrian firm" "were involved in supplying arms to this man." "Is it just talk?" "Is it not true?" "It's not true." "You have never worked for them?" "The fact is..." "Please... do you work for them or don't you?" " The true situation..." " Answer my question." "Do you or don't you..." "Have you worked for them?" "Well I work for..." "worked for... but not now." "[Int. ] Now give me an explanation." "Of course in principle, I have to say first..." "Barbie was never involved in the drug trade... or in drug traffic... no." "And I think they were also involved in providing information... intelligence information to the US government." "Did you ever go to the American embassy with information?" "No, never." "I have friends..." "I have had friends." "Think it over... because I'll be going to the American embassy." "I had friends many years ago... but information?" "No." "I took part in their social events, sports..." "But I never took information there. never." "[former chieftain of "The Fiancés of Death"] [German] I first met Barbie in La Paz" "That is, after knowing his lawyer Adolfo Ustarez, through..." "The one in the photo..." "The famous photo of the coup of July 17, 1980." "The fact that I hired, or Barbie hired, Ustarez as his lawyer... doesn't mean they're friends for life." "That's absurd." " This a group of paramilitary..." " Are they the "Fiancés of Death"?" "The "Fiancés of Death"..." "This is Joachim Fiebelkorn..." "this is an ex-Nazi who's involved in arms dealing... and this is Adolfo Ustarez... the lawyer." "And this is a photo of Adolfo Ustarez with Klaus Barbie." "Who are the "Fiancés of Death"?" "I don't understand." "AH... the "Fiancés of Death"..." "German adventurers who came to Bolivia." "[German] In this famous café in La Paz, sat Dr Ustarez, the lawyer." "We joined Barbie at his table." "We spoke only Spanish, and then Ustarez said..." ""He's a countryman of yours. "" "So he says to me in Spanish..." ""You're German?"" "I say yes. "From where?" "From near Frankfurt. "" "So he asks what I'm doing in Bolivia." "I say "I plan to live here. "" "I'll never forget his first words about Bolivia..." "A tip about Bolivia..." "To stay out of politics and anything to do with drugs." ""Then you can live in peace. " His very words." "Our first conversation." "Advice you didn't always follow." "Not at all." "In fact I fell into it." "Climbed in, you mean." "It was through a Bolivian general that I fell into it all." "The general knew I'd been with the police." "They knew also that I'd shipped arms from Germany." "That's when I knew politically that I was on the general's side." "The police were really... leftists." "Leftists who stand for things I oppose." "For that I didn't need to emigrate." "Marxism, Che Guevara... you name it." "Even police officers trained in Cuba." "I'm sure of it." "No way I could be part of that." "[Int. ] So you took the other side?" "Of course... it was the only way." "[Int. ] Which was more Barbie's side." "Yes, Barbie's side, of course." "Dis you ever meet Fiebelkorn?" "[Spanish] It's true..." "I met him." "Did you have drinks with him?" "Did you go out with him?" "Nights with him in Santa Cruz?" "Not with me." "With Barbie?" "Just once at the restaurant Bavaria... just once." "[German] As a guest I can say that when he had company... his wife was more suspicious than he." "At his house that was my impression." "He mentioned Klarsfeld's coming, but only casually." "But I can tell you, I told my general I said..." ""If that man was SS, I was Napoleon's adjutant!"" "All these former Nazis were very closely tied together." "Although that Klarsfeld should come in on that himself... the fact that they were tied." "And there was a network of ex-Nazis in South America..." "It was in my opinion, very, very active." "[Spanish] In Argentina, the Eichmann issue had come up." "At least I think they'd already discovered him... and he, Eichmann, of course felt cornered." "Eichmann who had contacts and friends eager to help him." "Barbie somehow heard they wanted to help Eichmann move to Santa Cruz." "[German] The old crowd kept up contact, I won't deny it." "General Wolf..." "[Int. ] Visited Barbie?" "Yes, he came." "They met." "I don't know what was discussed though." "He was at least 80." "So the altitude was a problem." "Did Barbie ever talk with you about the Mengele case?" "Yes, of course." "We had long talks about his work at Buenos Aires University, and his professorship." "Did you think Mengele was a criminal?" "Well that wasn't it exactly, no." "He explained it to me... how these were well-orchestrated exaggerations... cleverly manipulated for the world press, to present Mengele as a murderer." "You say "exaggerated Mengele's role"... and Barbie's role." "I'm told we've also exaggerated Eichmann's role." "So who's role did we NOT exaggerate?" "Personally, I can't say..." "I wasn't there." "I do know from reading history, WWll accounts... many distortions arise between writers." "Do you know any Jews?" "It's possible." "Do you know how to recognize a Jew?" "Has Barbie taught you how to recognize a Jew?" "No, not him exactly, but..." "[Int. ] Barbie didn't like Jews, did he?" "Let's face it." "I wouldn't say that." "He did have Jewish friends here." "He said, that among these people, among these Jews, there were some who weren't full of anger." "Not vindictive or not full of anger?" "So he said." "[German] 2 weeks after the coup of the 17th, the revolution of Garcia Meza," "I was assigned to security at Santa Cruz airport, which I'd blocked off with my paramilitary." "Everything was normal except for the military police." "I was in the departure lounge with the Bolivian lieutenant." "Suddenly there's an uproar on level 3." "So I look up to see what was wrong, and there's Barbie." "I had no idea he was there" "Barbie, on level 3..." "I knew it was him, and I see a much taller man trying to push him over the railing." "This German Jew says," ""I'll kill you, Nazi swine!"" ""In '36 you put me in a concentration camp." "You murdered my family and my friends. "" "or some such thing." "It was getting dangerous." "Barbie was half over the railing, just about ready to fall." "In my own country, very often" "I can't even walk down the streets." "Well, they insult me..." "I can't go into a store to buy a sweater or a shirt..." "And I have to ask a friend to go buy shoes for me." "I can't go in myself." "They might insult me, and I don't want trouble." "[Int. ] Do you know you're known as Barbie's best friend?" "Sure they know, that's why they insult me." "[Peter, Spanish] Are you even sorry to be Barbie's friend?" "No, why should I be?" "I'm not sorry." "[former president of the German Chamber of Commerce in Peru] In so far as America having Lima in Chile, Ecuador, Argentina as the recipients of the... how would you say it?" "The "Strandgutes Krieges"... all kind of "Strandgut" of the war." "In German it is a very nice word to say... "leftovers" [jetsam]." "What's left on the beach... the vanquished." "Then of course, in these circles, a lot of sentiment and understanding was there." " Resentment toward the..." " Having lost!" " And therefore they sat around and drank..." " Drank their beer and sang their old songs." "And how about Barbie?" "Barbie said nothing about what he did in the war." "I met him at the house of a friend, in Santa Clara near Lima." "I think this was in the beginning of '69 or '70." "I can't recall it very well." "But at that time he was not prominent in Lima yet." "[Translator, Spanish] Do you know the name "Barbie"?" "Yes, he was a noble man, truly." "He was in the army." "He thinks he was an army man." "And also he thinks of army man as nobleman." "As noble man?" "One day there was a guest from Bolivia a merchant..." "Klaus Altmann-Handen..." "Who was presented to me... and his wife." "They called her Jin..." "Jin Altmann." "That's how I met them." "He was director of Transmarica Boliviana which is a privately owned, with state participation, shipping company of Bolivia." "Then he bought a house next to my place" "Which is a further 20 kilometres up towards the Andes." "As I live 75 k outside, I do not go home for siestas." "I normally finished work at the Chamber of Commerce at about 7pm." "And on the way home, I dropped in for a glass of wine, as I found him quite interesting." "There was always something interesting to talk about." "What type of thing?" "Well... it'd be about Schwend, you know,..." "Not about Barbie." "In this I would not say that Barbie was the reason I dropped in..." "I didn't find him THAT interesting." "He talked about his exploits in the war..." "One time he showed me his medals." "He got the Iron Cross first class, second class... and he got..." "He had a small ribbon and very proud of it... the swastika was still in it." "Now you can wear the old medals again without the swastika." "He of course never would wear them without the swastika." "That is of course against his "honor"!" "[former federal judge, Lima] This property was managed by Fritz Paul Schwend." "Living there temporarily was Klaus Altmann Barbie, who had just come to Peru from Bolivia." "On the other side lived Schneider-Merck, then president of the Peruvian-German Chamber of Commerce." " You spoke German or Spanish?" " No... always German of course." "I wouldn't... why should we?" "... we're all Germans!" "[Trans." "Spanish] Does Schneider-Merck live here?" "Yes." " In what house?" " The second one." "I'm not done yet, but I don't know where they are." "So I got into currency dealings with these people..." "And they really cheated me..." "after this apparent friendship..." "It became absolutely..." "I was just conned." "In a very very vile way by these 2 buggers." "Barbie as a "crook"..." "among other things?" "!" "Oh, definitely... he's not only crooked in mind... he is a crook." "I would definitely say so... the criminal energy required to torture another human being." "Probably someone who is capable of this, is capable of doing anything else..." "And still having a clean conscience." "The only scruples that Barbie had, was that he had to somehow bring together for example his avowed Nazi ideology, which of course required a lot of idealism," "And the others..." "A lot of idealism of giving up personal freedom for the "bigger idea"..." "Yes he had to bring that together." "With what?" "Bring together the Nazi ideology with what?" "With his own dealings." "[Spanish] It can be proved it is through Klaus Altman or Klaus Barbie that the Banco Popular Del Peru had an office in Bolivia." "Dollars, converted to soles, were sent to Bolivia, then converted back to dollars then sent by Klaus Altmann through an international network to foreign accounts." "And they stole this considerable sum of money... 500,000 Deutschmarks in cash... was in 1971 quite a lot of money." "They really stole from me." "They didn't have to go into my house..." "I gave it to them!" "To deposit it in Bolivia." "[Spanish] Fritz Paul Schwend worked with our intelligence service, through which he tried to get information about possible dollar accounts abroad." "Then he made contacts in Hamburg in Germany, looking for people to put the squeeze on." " I was a victim of..." " But you were also involved." "Definitely..." "I was also involved in currency dealings." "[Spanish] He liked us." "He was a good noble person." "He said Altmann was a nice person." "He liked him a lot." "How did he feel about South American indians?" "You talked with him for 2 years..." "you must have talked a lot about that." "It's a little bit difficult..." "There was this very jolly admiral..." "I really do not recall his name but he was a typical cholo... a highlander..." "massively strong... short cropped black hair." "But really looking like an indian... and" "We went to the harbor because he wanted to buy a second-hand ship... and I noticed he was treated as admiral like a subordinate." "Like "Carry my bag"... you know." "Mr Altmann praised his work, when he was doing his gardening." "[Spanish] Did Mr Altmann like flowers?" "He had a feeling of superiority..." "he was absolutely sure of himself." " Supermensch?" " Oh, definitely." "[ex-chairman of Transmaratima Boliviana] When they launched the Transmaratima Bolivian" "Barrientos said to me, "Gaston, meet a great sailor. "" ""A naval engineer who'll be working with us. "" "That's when we became friends, and he became our manager." "They used of course this Transmaratima for all kinds of deals." "General Barrientos knew Barbie was a scoundrel when he put him in charge." "He'd been given a Bolivian diplomatic passport, which he used for trips to Paris, Berlin, Hamburg, Antwerp," "where he went to the best restaurants, the best hotels' as manager of Transmaratima." "They were so enthusiastic!" "They asked the Bolivians, children, old people for a national subscription, to invest, so the company could buy a boat." "What did they do with that boat?" "The Transmaratima." "Arms smuggling?" "Oh yes... definitely." "I'm so bad with figures, I can't say how much, how many dollars." "But it was a lot, because youngsters, even kids, invested their money, so our nation would have access to the sea!" "After I found out that these people were crooks..." "I just sat in a hotel room in Bogota and thought "What can I do?"" "I mean what can I do..." "what do I have in hand?" "Having known these people for 3 years and having met a lot of their acquaintances..." "I was very well aware as to what a feeble and delicate situation I found myself." "How powerful and how dangerous they could be, if they found someone not to their liking any longer." "He was given protection, since he was "in" with the police." "A very frequent visitor was Colonel Velasquez Alavarez... he was the brother of the military dictator of Bolivia at that time." "So you were in that hotel room in Bolivia." "Yes, so I thought what can I do against them?" "I had handed over a suitcase with the equivalent of 500,000 DM in local currency." "And a kilo of gold and some documents..." "How could I ever establish it?" "There was nothing... no receipt, nothing." "So I started to write down everything I knew about Altmann." "I knew that he spoke perfectly French and he had even said he was stationed in France." "He also said he was stationed for a very short time in Yugoslavia." "But he never really said to which battalion, which infantry division he belonged." "Perhaps there is some other angle to it." "Perhaps something that Altmann is hiding." "And I made a very solemn memorandum and I sent this by a friend in Switzerland..." "Dr Alfred Jenni from the Santos corporation." "I said send it to Simon Wiesenthal." "[researcher of Nazi crimes] Schneider-Merck claims to have sent a letter to Simon Wiesenthal." "That's possible, but he didn't send us any letters." "And then the answer came back that Simon Wiesenthal declares that he has the whole archives of all members of the Gestapo, SS, SD..." "And there is no Klaus Altmann-Handen." "[French] Wiesenthal wrote the previous month: "Barbie's in the Egyptian army. "" "If it was received, it wasn't read." "So I said this is really something..." "So I said, "Jesus, now I've found you, you bastard. "" "Because if you are not there, then you are under another name." "In November" " December 1971," "Banchero Rossi and a correspondent, Herbert John," "Gave us Barbie's address and alias." "And right after, 3 or 4 days later, Banchero Rossi was murdered." "As he lived next to Barbie and Schwend, they were suspected of the crime." "Herbert John..." "Reports started to appear." "These reports began appearing in Germany, in 2 magazines..." "Der Spiegel and Bild Zeitung." "That's it." "They made it sound as though it were a conspiracy involving Nazi figures." "The last time I ever saw Barbie... he stopped me on the road... and very furiously had a newspaper and he said" ""We had some commercial difficulties... "" ""But here... see what Wiesenthal says one of my cover names was Martin Lauer." "How could he ever have known this?" "Explain this to me!" ""I understand we had some commercial difficulty... but this is something else"..." "Like going over to the enemy!" "These people have no religion." "he says people like that is like bad people." ""Mr Altmann or Mr Barbie, if you prefer... "" "This 500,000 has disappeared..." "I want one third back and then I never want to see you again in my life." "Only God could judge his worth." "God almighty can judge them all." "His wife was sitting next to him..." "He said "Have we had commercial difficulties?"" ""What you did with me was betrayal of a comrade... "" ""In my textbook, that is the death penalty, my friend. "" "In German it sounds much more forceful." "[German] Your crime, Mr Altmann... or should I say Barbie... is betrayal of a comrade" "By my code of honor, that warrants the death penalty!" "And I never saw him again." "[former correspondent Agence France Presse] [French] Around noon I received a wire from Paris..." ""We believe that Barbie"" ""is Altmann and is in Lima. "" ""We count on you, as ever, to get the story. "" "Immediately I thought of Schwend, who was the Nazi everyone knew." "I'd met him casually one day but guessed he wouldn't remember me." "I got in my car with my girlfriend." "I also had a police escort." "[Int. ] The police were with you?" "4 plainclothes police." "I went and talked to Schwend." "He chuckled and said "OK." "I'll get you an appointment. "" "Barbie was there on the dot." "After some talk, I said," ""Look, people are saying you're Barbie. "" "The look on the man's face was one of total surprise." "Then I said, "If that's untrue..." ""We'll take photos to prove you're not Barbie. "" "Here are the photos." "[Int. ] Shot in Lima?" "In a square facing Hotel Bolivar." "He'd have pulled his pants down for sure." "[Int. ] Such a nice guy couldn't be guilty." "It was just impossible." "But I'd been instructed" "To get shots of his ears." "[Int] They use ears to identify people?" "Here's a photo after our talk in the hotel." "He posed." "After such a demonstration you figure, "This can't be Barbie. "" "[Int. ] Because he's too nice?" "Because he's too nice and too cooperative." "So cooperative, that he'd set up a date in Bolivia." "Of course he fled." "I asked the French government for data." "That's when I met with the French ambassador, Mr Chambon." "who very cautiously managed not to confirm or deny that Barbie and Altmann were one person." "[French] Mr Chambon was in Lima when Beate brought the evidence." "He took the right steps, but too late, and he knew it." "Barbie was over the border." "Naturally he was protected by the authorities." "[Spanish] The government, or maybe the minister of the interior, kept me from indicting Altmann." "He'd crossed the border." "I decided to have Klaus Barbie arrested, but word leaked out." "I was surprised he was in La Paz." "[Int." "French] Why was he protected?" "He was protected because of his friends and connections." "Around these parts, a friend's a friend." "My first impulse was to report his escape." "Then I thought "Do I really want to act like a cop?"" "[Int. ] Did your attempt to arrest Barbie have a bad influence on your career?" "[Spanish] I don't know whether it helped or hurt." "Many bad things have happened to me." "I don't know if they're due to that, but you noticed I'm no longer a judge." "[Int." "French] Who decided to let him get away to Bolivia?" "It was Richter." "[Int. ] The minister of the interior." "He phoned to say: "Barbie leaves tonight." "This makes it official. "" ""But remember you're a journalist. "" "[researcher of Nazi crimes] What we do we do on our own." "We're not paid by any government or party." "I can't compare myself to Klarsfeld, or those who act with a sense... of a mission." "Their mission is economic... financially rewarding." "We pay our own way." "With a small group of friends, we raise funds later." "You think they do it for their health?" "Who pays their air fares?" "Who pays for their stay in 5-star hotels?" "[Int. ] You believe the Israeli secret service foots the bill?" "Yes, I think so." "When I slapped the German chancellor," "I was called a Soviet agent." "When I spoke out against anti-Semitism, I was with the CIA." "[Spanish] When the lady arrived, the Nazi-hunter, Miss Karsfeld, we didn't go to tell her Altmann is here..." "No way!" "But we knew who Altmann was." "[French] I didn't see Barbie in La Paz, but I knew he was giving interviews to the press." "He said "I'm proud of all I've done..." "and I'd do it again for Hitler. "" "He threatened France." "He felt safe under the junta." "Up in the Andes, he charged for TV interviews." "To our distaste, even French TV paid him." "[Spanish] He was protected by his friends because he was very popular." ""Hi dear, how are you going?" and all that." "He was a nice guy nobody bothered on the street." "Believe me." "[French] He agreed to pose having his shoes shined in the heart of Lima." "We said, "Listen, have your shoes shined, and we'll take your picture. "" "When we sat him down at a piano in La Paz... we knew we were really exploiting him." "He concentrated like a true pianist... a real German, too..." "lyrical." "[Spanish] He was a gentleman." "He was at ease chatting to a local girl, and he was an intelligent, capable man." "[French] Why hound him like that?" "He had a family and was trying..." " [int. ] To start over." " To start over." "I wasn't just thinking of him." "His wife suffered terribly." "I think it did her in." "We did her in." "Mrs Halaunbrenner lost her husband and children." "She'd not newsworthy." "The media prefers the killer." "This woman went alone to Bolivia, to denounce Barbie's crimes against humanity." "She alone, in her grief, found the courage." "My daughter and my son." "My husband was shot, my children deported." "All by Klaus Barbie." "All day he was in my home at Villeurbanne." "On the Rue Pierre Loti." "He took my husband and son from me..." "I tried to pull them back... crying... but he struck me with his gun butt." "[Man] In 1971, Serge got my name from the phone book." "He called and asked if the names Mina and Claudine meant anything to me." "[Int. ] He called you in 1971?" "It's then he told me his plan... "Barbie's in Bolivia." "We can reopen the case. "" "Mother, who was 68 at the time, agreed to go right away." "saying "I'll do anything to find the ones who killed my husband and kids." "They stayed a month in Bolivia." "With Beate, they demonstrated against this man, who now at large, had been a killer in France." "[anchorman, French TV news] In 1972, by chance, I got hold of Klaus Barbie, journalistically speaking." "After 5 days of inquiries, I got to conduct a 25-minute interview with him." "I was asked to see if Mr Altmann was Mr Barbie." "I went as a reporter, not as a Nazi-hunting avenger." "[Int. ] You weren't the first to identify him." "Nor were the Klarsfelds." "They deserve the credit for putting Barbie away in a French prison." "But Barbie had been spotted in South America by the French secret service as early as 1966 or '67." "French diplomats knew of his presence." "built in 1967 their major concern was getting Regis Debray out of a Bolivian jail." "They couldn't ask Bolivia for both Debray and Barbie." "[adviser to the French presidency] That's completely ridiculous." "I was freed December 29, 1970." "Barbie was first identified, I believe, at the end of 1971." "[Int. ] Are you revolted by the theory that your case thwarted efforts to get Barbie?" "[Debray] It was never an issue." "Believe me, if it had been so, I'd have known all about it" " [Int. ] In jail" " Yes, in jail and afterwards." "My friends would have known." "French diplomats were incompetent and indifferent." "If Klaus Barbie had waved a flag "My name's Klaus Barbie,"" "They'd never say "The Nazi. "" "They let him walk around La Paz." "When they saw him, they'd cross the street." "They couldn't live with a Barbie/Altmann." "When that French TV crew came to La Paz, the French consul hand-delivered Barbie's fee for the interview." "French officials may have known" "Altmann/Barbie's whereabouts." "But one thing is sure..." "A policy existed, for the diplomats to do nothing, whoever was responsible." "No instructions were given to our embassies down there to start extradition procedures..." "even to look for Barbie." "[former leader of the French Resistance] Pompidou was a bit nervous." "because he'd always heard too many people talk about resistance." "So he got the jumps I think, when people started talking about resistance." "It was better for him if one spoke a little less about it." "[int." "French] Pompidou wanted extradition?" "Deep down, perhaps, he didn't think it was a very urgent issue." "In 1972 it took a few days to persuade the Bolivians to bring Barbie to me." "First they said "You'll go to his house blindfolded so you won't know the address. "" ""You'll have 3 minutes interview time. "" ""enough for him to say he's nobody but Mr Altmann. "" "[German] The prosecutors in Munich will be able to forward the file." "so the Bolivian authorities can set the record straight." "[French] They wanted us to speak Spanish, but I spoke German." "[German] Barbie's wife and children have exactly the same names and ages as your own." "That could be." "There are many such coincidences in life." "After a while I said in French, "Were you over in Lyon?"" "Try asking that of someone who doesn't speak French!" "He told me, "I never set foot there!"" "From then on he was all mine." "[German] Could you say something in French?" "Just a few words?" "Say what? "Comment allez-vous?"" "[Journalist, French] "I wasn't in the Gestapo. "" "I wasn't in the Gestapo." "Then he said "I'm not a murderer and a torturer. "" "In a voice that was very Germanic, very guttural." "I am not a murderer." "I'm not a torturer." "I'm not a torturer." "I was never in the Gestapo in Lyon." "[German] What was that?" "[French] I was never in the Gestapo in Lyon." "[French] I was never in the Gestapo..." "Lyon." "[Journ. ] In Lyon" "I don't know Jean Moulin." "I don't know..." "Señor Molino... as we say here." "Before me was an ageing cop, who, with some help from the mountain sun, had mellowed in retirement." "He seemed to have lost some of his professional reflexes." "[German] According to what I read in Paris-Match," "[French] We had more interest in Moulin than the Izieu story." "which was hardly known at the time... hardly published." "[German] Anything to say to the French?" "No, I have nothing against the French." "Never did." "On the contrary, I used to deal with them, do business with them." "[Int." "French] Yet in Bolivia he threatened them." "I think he said on film..." "When I mentioned the Eichmann case, he said to me," "[German] If the same happens to me, it'll be a bad day for France." "This is Klaus Barbie's home." "He lived here for 2 years until 1981." "I was standing here 1981, together with Marisa Bell-Schumacher from The New York Times" "We were both doing a story for The Times, and knocking on the door hear." "[Int. ] Was he looking at you while you were..." "I saw him looking from this window." "Then he disappeared." "After waiting, we were about to leave after taking pictures, and a van showed up and about 12 paramilitary armed with submachine guns, showed up." "They were in an unmarked van." "They asked us what we were doing here, then put us under arrest, put us in the van and took us to military headquarters." "It was a place headed by Colonel Guido Vildoso." "We were held about 5 hours." "But they realized that by having arrested us, they were in serious trouble" "Two people working for The New York Times were arrested for trying to reach Klaus Barbie." "So they released us after 5 hours." "Guido Vildoso ordered our release." "A year later Guido Vildoso was president of Bolivia." "One of the first visitors he had to the palace was Barbie." " [Spanish] Guido Vildoso?" " Yes sir." "[Vildoso] No comment." "I'm not authorizes by the commander-in-chief." "Would you speak for film on Barbie?" "When you led the seventh, do you remember?" "You arrested some journalists, and when you..." "I'm very sorry but you'll need the commander-in-chief's authorization." "He has been president of Bolivia?" "[Spanish] Yes, he was president." "I don't want to talk about military matters." "He says in general terms, he cannot speak." "Does he remember what the arrest..." "[Spanish] Do you recall arresting..." "[Journ. ] He remembers that." "[Spanish] Many thanks Mr President" " My pleasure and so sorry." " Sure, of course." "[Vildoso] I assume the presidency by a mandate from our nation's armed forces, at a critical time in the history of Bolivia, when it would seem all our values, ethical, moral, spiritual and material," "are crumbling. with unforeseeable consequences for the destiny of our nation." "Good afternoon." "We'd like your impressions for a film on Barbie." "Can you describe him personally?" "How was it living beside him so long" "Were they nice people?" "And his wife?" "How was it when his son died?" "He was a very normal person." "We got along well." "He was a gentleman." "I don't know many private things." " Was he very nice?" " As a neighbor, yes." "[book publisher] [German] Barbie visited my bookstore, until we kicked him out one day in La Paz." "His wife also bought German magazines." "We've been the only German bookstore in Bolivia for the past 40 years." "We already knew who he was." "We kicked his wife out for another reason, unaware who she was." "She was such an obnoxious customer, haggling over everything, that we said, We don't need your business. "" "[Spanish] He asked me over a few times." "At first he thought I was Jewish." "[Journ. ] He thought he was Jewish." "[Spanish] And this had made things difficult." "[Journ. ] That was the difference, he thought he was Jewish." "[German] When Barbie first got here, he did business with Jews, who, of course, had no idea who he was, where he was from, or what he represented." "[Spanish] Well, with us..." "we're not Jews, we're Bolivians." " Once he understood that..." " [Journ. ]You got on better?" "He was much friendlier... warmer, more open..." "[German] My bookstore and press got me on their blacklist." "Barbie kept the list." "He had much more influence that we thought." "He told me he had an office at the ministry of the interior, and private guards." "[Int. ] Under Banzer and Garcia Meza?" "That's right." "Banzer had me arrested." "A squad of storm-troopers came, maybe 6 or 8... in the commotion I didn't count them... with machine guns and all, to clear out my books." "They said to me, "Why don't you pick out which books are subversive... "" ""and threaten Bolivia's freedom?"" "I said, "That's impossible. "" ""Either all are subversive or none are. "" "They burned them all." "I was put in a private jail, guarded by young paramilitaries, all shouting very proudly, "We're the Gestapo!" "Fascists!"" ""We're on the watch!" "We're the Gestapo. " A great honor for them." "[writer] [French] Barbie, if you will, is a man of conviction, of consistency, of continuity." "The convictions he upholds are Aryan, racist and political." "That's why, in Bolivia, he immediately became active." "in intelligence, the army, and police repression." "He didn't have to do this." "He wasn't defending Germany." "In 1972 there was an abortive attempt to return him to France, via Chile." "Debray and I went to Santiago." "We flew to the Bolivian border." "Karsfeld had data I didn't have, and vice versa." "Our motives differed but we joined forces when I saw him in Santiago." "He said why he wanted Barbie." "To me Barbie was simply Moulin's killer." "Karsfeld knew he was guilty of much more than that." "In 1973 General Pinochet replaced Allende." "Our plans were off." "As a French Latino, I went to South America... to take part in movements like those I'd missed... the Resistance, Spain." "[Int. ] You felt a need for commitment?" "You might say Barbie was living proof I wasn't entirely wrong." "It was the same struggle against the same men." "This is Barbie's last home." "[Spanish] Yes, shortly before he was arrested, he lived here on the 3rd floor." "Hey, who gave you permission..." " [Man] Don't do that!" " I don't care!" "This is a private residence." "I'll report you!" "I don't understand Spanish." "But I know who lived here..." "It was Klaus Barbie." "And that's what you don't want us to film, isn't it." "[Spanish] I don't care!" "Talk to me in Spanish." "Mr De Castro, what were we talking about when we were so rudely interrupted?" "I don't remember." "[French] Alvaro De Castro had decided to kidnap me, to exchange me for Barbie." "It was a madcap idea." "[Int. ] When was this, in 1984?" "Just a few months after Barbie was returned." "In the face of conclusive evidence, De Castro confessed in Bolivia." " [Int. ] Who'd finance it?" " Money's no problem in Bolivia." "For all its supposed marginality, Bolivia is one of the world's richest countries." "This "poor" country is rolling in dollars." "The main drug lord is now setting up an arts foundation to promote Bolivian culture worldwide." "There's all sorts of culture here." "The coco plant's one kind, pre-Colombian art is another." "When the dictatorship fell," "Beate and I remembered the promise we had made." "to the mothers of the Izieu children, to bring Barbie to justice." "So we convinced the French president this operation was worthwhile." "Our friend G.S. Salazar became head of security, and quickly resolved the Barbie case." "[Spanish] When he was arrested, I didn't see him." "We simply held him for non-payment of a debt." "Altmann, a Bolivian, couldn't be expelled." "Barbie, a German living here illegally, could be." "He felt secure." "He didn't think we'd expel him." "But when we got into the car, I told him he was being expelled, not transferred." "He thought that meant Germany." "So, it's back to Germany, where I ought to be living... like anyone else." "[French] Over a span of 40 years and 2 continents, the "arm of justice' brought Barbie back to the scene of his crimes." "[Journ. ] Spanish] Do you think the past is done with?" "It's passed, buried." "You regret nothing you've done in your life?" "Personally no." "I can say no." "If you could relive it, would you do the same?" "You can't relive the past." "Life is never the same." "Repeat it and it's different." "It's full of complications, trials and errors." "Did you make any mistakes?" "Of course!" "Haven't you?" "Are you still a Nazi?" "The word Nazi doesn't exist." "It's used..." "I don't know..." "Can you explain to me what Nazi means?" "[Children singing in German]" "[Anchorman, French] While the press awaited the arrival of Barbie at Lyon airport, his plane landed at 8pm at Orange Air Force Base." "It had flown him from French Guyana." "[warden of Montluc prison] [int. ] Should Barbie have been left in peace in La Paz." "You're asking what I think as an average Frenchman?" "40 years after is a bit late." "All civilized countries have secret services." "They can have individuals killed abroad no matter where." "I'm French and I say had France wished to dispose of Barbie in those 40 years it had plenty of chances!" "[Anchorman] Barbie was brought to this prison under heavy guard." "He will be formally charged by Judge Jacques Riss, with crimes against humanity." "Here's the cell Barbie occupied for a week." "It was arranged exactly like this, during his one-week stay here." "Except the pictures you see on the walls weren't there during Barbie's occupancy." "[Int. ] Those naked girls?" "The scantily-clad girls weren't up on the wall when Barbie was here." "He left after a week for security reasons." "[Int. ] This isn't maximum security?" "You see the building overlooking the exercise yard?" "At exercise period, a sniper could easily have shot him." "At the least movement in the yard, all cameras focused there." "The press camped out night and day trying to get a scoop." "He said his life was over." "His wife and son dead." "He was 71 at the time." "He said he didn't care what happened." "Once we were talking, he said to me," ""If there's anything we should ban, it's war. "" ""As long as it's around though, only one can speak." "The winner. "" "[Spanish] In war you have to win." "Losers lose everything." "I've forgotten." "If THEY haven't, then it's their problem." "In any case I've forgotten." "[Children singing in German]" "[Jacques Vergès" " Attorney at law] [French] The film's about to start." "I'm their prisoner, I can't get up." "Would you close the door then?" "Another crew is coming at 5." "Have them wait in the blue parlor." "[Int. ] Why would some people agree to be interviewed only if Vergès isn't?" "It attests to his diabolical skill and his way of dropping insinuations, innuendoes." "A man comes to France." "He is presumed guilty, said to be indefensible." "I ask, "Why not defend him, and prove no case in indefensible for a lawyer?"" "This is satisfying enough." "I'm the cheerful type." "I had another reason, too, for taking the case." "I'm Eurasian, you know." "I grew up in a colonial society." "Frankly, I can't say I'm a victim of racial discrimination, now." "I'm not." "But I've lived in a society full of discrimination." "I defended Algerian freedom fighters." "As an attorney," "I believe that defending an individual against any state is a function the defense must perform." "You're giving him free publicity!" "This is disgusting!" "He's as cowardly as his client, and just as offensive." "You're all the same!" "After the army, I became a student activist in Paris, with other students:" "Vietnamese, Cambodian, Moroccan." "[Int. ] Communist?" "I left the party during the Battle of Algiers in 1957." "I disagreed with the party's policy on the colonial question." "With Algerian independence, I move to Algiers." "I married, I practised law." "The Algerian government asked me to defend the first Palestinian Fedayeen arrested." "That was 1965." "[investigative journalist] The question to ask Vergès, the one he evades, is what did he do in the gap 1970-78?" "An absence so total that his wife was declared a widow!" "I left the Algiers practice, then for 8 years..." "[Int. ] The Vergès gap!" "I led a private life." "I won't elaborate." "I have no political ambitions, not being a candidate for office, I feel no need to explain." "[president of Montruc prisoners association] He's always been a sly politician." "All his life a 1st rate politician." "A remarkable man, not just a lawyer..." "Courageous." "Not one bit!" "That's not the word." "It took courage to defend Barbie after the Algerian bomb-throwers." "[film maker] I was shocked to see the attorney, who used to defend Algerian freedom-fighters, take on a client like Barbie." "I guess I don't understand lawyers." "In October '84, Ibrahim Abdallah was arrested in Lyon." "And who do you think he hires?" "Jacques Vergès." "The recent Paris bombings were to force Abdallah's release." "I do my job." "I'm completely my own man, no outside... [int. ] I didn't ask that yet!" "Money the usual question." "People marvel when I say I'm not paid." "Barbie's not the only one." "There's also Mr Abdallah." "I do it for free." "[int. ] Let me ask a question." "Who is Genoud?" "Who's François Genoud?" "A Swiss financier." "Not a banker as people claim." "A rather complicated life." "He flirted a bit with the Third Reich." "He was totally pro-Nazi before and during the war." "I met him during the Algerian War, at Arab parties in Switzerland." "Later he dealt with the PLO movement." "Habash's ultra-Marxist wing." " [Int. ] Genoud isn't your financier...?" " Absolutely not." "Many see a contradiction in this swing from extreme left to the extreme right." "Yet those extremes meet, fighting the Jews and Israel." "It's the old ploy:" "Go after the lawyer when you can't build a case." "And Vergès began acting as prosecutor instead of defender." "It's cigars you smell, not brimstone." "The best Havana cigars." "I am a lawyer." "When people want to lynch a man, my instinct is to shield him, and say "they'll do it over my dead body. "" "Do you believe in human justice in a bourgeois society?" "I believe in the rules we operate by." "[Int. ] In our society?" "[Vergès] In the Barbie case I'm defending." "[Usher] Court's in session!" "The judicial system against false use." "[Children singing in German]" "His morale's good and his health's bad, for a reason nobody disputes." "A month before his arrest in Bolivia, he had a stroke, that left him with a slight limp and severe leg pains." "The only treatment he is getting is the kind prison vets give their livestock... aspirin for headaches, and sleeping pills." "And laxatives." "Not much of a treatment for his ailment." "My request he be examined by experts of my choice was refused." "Never under France's 40 kings, five republics and two emperors, have over 10 years separated crime and trial." "He told me," ""In 3 years I haven't seen an animal, a plant, or even the sky." "Total solitary confinement is inhuman." "[French] How did Vergès get the case?" "Well, there's Barbie's daughter, a librarian in Vienna." " No in Kurfstein." " Well, in Austria anyway." "She's allowed to see her father, and she wanted Vergès to defend him." "[German] It's not easy to help in a situation like this." "All we can do is to continue to visit him." "[French] He needed background from those who knew him." "Naturally, his daughter knew him best." "[Int. ] I wouldn't necessarily say "best"." "There's the age difference." "[Int. ] Yes, people always know one side of a person." "Of course, she'd have to defend him." "[German] You say Nazi, but how clear is that?" "[Int. ] A Nazi leader..." "a Hitlerian leader." "It's hard for me to speak of Nazis, since I can't really explain what a national socialist is." "No one has ever explained it to me." "That's why I say that..." "But I interrupted you." "I'm sorry." "My mother played the piano." "So did he." "Classical music." "But also pop tunes." "He loved to sing, too." "We all enjoyed singing." "We sang all the time." "We were a very very happy family." "[French] Mrs Messner pulled out all the stops for us." "What do you expect." "She's his daughter." "[Int. ] Can you say that in French?" " In French?" " Yes." "He is a very good father." "Very loving, very tender." "He was a very sweet father-in-law." "He was always very nice to me, even after my husband died." "Mrs Crozier knew him in Bolivia, and could vividly describe him." "He had many friends." "He helped friends with their problems." " [Int. ] A good man." " Yes, good." "This young woman had been deceived, because when she married Barbie's son she didn't know who her father-in-law was." "[Int. ] Are you sure?" " I'm quite sure." "[Int." "French] Did you know about his past?" "No, I didn't know exactly, but still, I felt there was something..." "[Int. ] To hear you speak of his love for your children, knowing he's been charged with atrocities in Lyon," "is jarring." "It's jarring for us, too." "Think of this woman with 3 children named Barbie." "What a legacy!" "I'm not the only Frenchwoman to marry a German." "[Choir sings German folk song]" "[French] I was 18 in 1944, and in those days I was, like most young people then, hungry." "[restaurant owner in Lyon] It was a time when everything was rationed." "There were coupons for bread, meat, butter, for oil and all the fats." "Coupons for everything, even potatoes." "There was a café in Lyon, which was frightful... because it was one of the few places which was cheap." "And you had a lot of people in it, who knew it was cheap." "When you go into a café and you see a lot of people who wink at you... you don't go next time, because you know this is dangerous." "[French] Restaurants served army people, militia men, the Gestapo, in order to serve other clients, too." "During the war, restaurants played it both ways... one room for the Resistance, one for the Germans." "The best café I went to, was one next to the Gestapo." " Le Moulin à Vente?" " No, it was called La Concorde." "[restaurant proprietor] [French] The main topic was Montluc." "and those poor men there." " It was Barbie's headquarters?" " Rue Paul Lantier." "It was nearby, that nice house on the corner." "A very convenient café, because it was full of Germans and Gestapo people." "So the Gestapo wouldn't dream of looking for someone there." "Whereas the other café, with the Resistance people, was dangerous... but you had to eat somewhere." " [French] People were hungry." " Thirsty too." " Crispy skin chicken." " Here." "People then were hungry." "Lots of dried vegetables" "Ration coupons for everything!" "One time, Mr Vettard found a lobster." "We hid it to eat that night after we closed." "We sat down to eat it in private." "Then a German officer saw us and came in." ""What a feast!" He sat down with us." " He ate it all?" " We had to give him some." "Of course... it was a time when..." "What dreadful things we remember." "[New York Times] I remember my interview last autumn with the French President and Mitterand, who brought Barbie back..." "I asked him a question about..." "Vichy..." "Isn't France afraid of having Vichy really exposed as collaborationist." "He said Vichy wasn't collaborationist..." "there were collaborationists within Vichy." "The Vichy government was not collaborationist, he said and I don't know how to translate it into English..." "It was spineless." "I said to myself "I want to interview this man... after he's no longer president, and see what he says then. "" "When I took 2 or 3 people who are 50 or 60 years old and who lived through the war... they say the French Resistance did a lot of good things... and it's the only French thing that saved the honor of France." "But part of the Resistance, that came later, much later... are the ones who speak out loud about what the French Resistance was." "What you're saying, is that for you as a schoolgirl in France, the Resistance was not heroic." "Yes, there's a flaw somewhere in the middle." "So you have some admiration or love or respect for the '30s." "Yes, that's right." "I'm someone who's 27 and maybe having stupid ideals..." "I think I knew they were fighting each other." "[former assistant to Jean Moulin] [French] Especially at that time... disagreements were at first over politics," "strategy, method, out of which grew... since there are no angels in politics or war... personality clashes, ambition and rivalries." "With Jean Moulin gone," "Frenay began negotiating directly with the US secret services in Switzerland..." " With Allen Dulles?" " Allen Dulles." "To get arms and money in exchange for military information." "But to have a Swiss connection was perfectly normal, with none of the drawbacks." "[Int. ] Moulin was against it." "Moulin wasn't against it." "De Gaulle was." "Can any government allow a private citizen to negotiate with a foreign power." " [Int. ] Foreign but allied." " Allies are foreign." "Not enemies... but foreigners." "[Int. ] In a war, an ally is an ally." "Listen, de Gaulle was right... in always treating the allies like the foreigners they are." "But not like enemies..." "Barbie knew of the Resistance's rivalries, and of the contacts between Dulles in Bern with some of the Resistance groups." "He was well-informed." "[Int. ] Barbie maintains he belonged to the Canaris-Karl Wolff group, that had contacts with the Americans." "[producer of "The Bitter Truth"] He once said, "I not only knew, but received orders. "" "[int. ] Is that how he explains why the Americans protected him after the war?" "He was hired immediately." "[Int. ] In '45?" " Yes." "Immediately after leaving Lyon in '44, he was protected." "[Int. ] So his arrival in Memmingen in '47 was no accident?" "Is that your theory?" "My theories end with Moulin's arrest." "3 years after Barbie's return, we're discussing the exact judicial scope of the indictment, and what charges are to be made." "The court decided that "war crimes" could be also "crimes against humanity"." " Which means..." " The Appeals Court decided?" "The Appeals Court, yes.." "[French] I see Barbie as an enemy of humanity..." "Which he's never denied." "I think you're wrong to confuse the 2 issues." "It's more important to confront Barbie with the horror of his systematic murder of people who were different." "We are told of limits for war crimes, and that it's pointless to question this." "But since crimes against humanity aren't prescribed, somebody like Barbie comes in very handy." "His case became a symbol for the entire Nazi regime." "[Int. ] It may seem shocking to many people that lethal torture, gratuitous sadism be forgotten." "Who is forgetting?" "These are war crimes, and they, like crimes of terrorism, have a 20-year limit on prosecution." "The only crime exempt against this is the crime against humanity... as was decided at Nuremberg and adopted by France in '64." "It is a crime against a whole population on the basis of its origins." "There's been a huge amount of propaganda during the last number of years.." "in order to try and prove that the Nazis murdered all those Jews." "[French] These were the crimes against Jews." "I know of no others." "So, it took up a large part of the press." "[French] The only children deported from France were Jews and Gypsies." "[Int. ] And the non-Jewish children at Izieu?" "And in the raid on Izieu, the only non-Jewish child, once properly identified, was let off the truck by the Germans." "and allowed to go home." "And I think that the French court... get nervous, get upset if one says "Crimes from the Nazis... only against the Jews. "" "They could have said crimes of the Nazis also against the Gypsies." "But the French people don't like the Gypsies!" "Why bring them in?" "So you have to demonstrate the crime was against good French." "And "good French"?" "..." "what is a "good French"?" "The Resistance was." "It's why they want to be in the Resistance... because everybody wants to..." ""Get in on the act" of the victim!" "[French] Why all these apprehensions?" "What's on the court's mind?" "Why are they afraid?" "It's because it has all become a political affair." "How can you even hold such a trial, when no one puts war crimes and crimes against humanity in Algeria on the stand?" "I was told that's different." "Now the appeals court agrees with me." "It counts all the horrors of war as crimes against humanity." "We can't avoid the premise on which Barbie's defense will rest." "Wasn't torture necessary for obtaining information?" "Then they will say the French did the same thing in Algeria." "Massu's books admit use of torture." "Argout's books admit that bored paratroopers on leave slew women and children for kicks." "[local leader of right-wing "National Front"] [Int. ] You're saying that if Le Pen tortured people in Algeria it was on government orders?" "I think so." "[Int. ] But that's Barbie's defense, that he was following orders... the classic defense." "That obviously raises questions of group responsibility which are far from being..." "[Int. ] "Befehl ist befehl"..." "You know German "Orders are orders. "" "The classic defense in all war-crime trials." "So Vergès is right?" "That's a trick question." "Vergès is doing his job." "My personal opinion?" "It's an old story." "It's old business by now." "It was 40 years ago." "[national leader of "National Front"] I'm fascinated by WW2 history." "I'd like to ask certain questions." "I'm not saying there were no gas chambers..." "Of course I never saw any myself." "I studied it." "But I think it's a minor point in WW2 history." "[Journalist] 6 million Jews is a minor point?" "[Journalist] 6 million dead." "Did I misunderstand?" "Journ. ] Dead Jews..." "is that a minor point?" "But the question is how and whether they were killed, right?" " But that's no minor point." " It is for the war." "[Int. ] You deny that the "Final Solution" was a plot to murder people?" "I deny that my client participated in it." " In the final solution?" " Yes." "[Federal prosecutor of Nazi crimes] [German] So often people knew that these Jewish people were sent to death camps to be killed." "[Int." "French] Memos from Dannecker were circulated to Gestapo agents, instructing them how to herd Jews to the gas chambers." "Are you claiming that your client did not receive them?" "One of the many odd things about this unusual file, is that you, Mr Ophuls, knew of this document, while I, the defense, wasn't shown it." "[Prosecutor-general, Lyon] No document used in establishing our case in the pre-trial hearings, came from outside that file." "[Int. ] the prosecution has the document." "Yes, but it wasn't given to me." "All the documents are in the record." "[Int. ] the defense has access to it?" "All parties did, without exception." " The defense also?" " Particularly the defense." "Vergès never studies files." "Anything goes." "[German] As you know, the authenticity of the documents has just been contested by the defense." "We have originals now, not copies." "It came as no surprise." "I told the prosecutor myself, and he conceded it was his first trial of this sort." "Our lawyers in Nazi trials also started off questioning [on French TV news] If they say the documents prove that Barbie is responsible for transferring Jewish children from Lyon to Drancy, I'm forced to state that it's a crude forgery." "[int. ] Do you still question the authenticity of the telex?" "More than ever." "[Int. ] Was it altered?" "Was it forged?" "It's a fake." "This "fake" must have predated Nuremberg." "But I was too young to be a forger then, because Vergès claims I was behind the forgery." "Only there is no forgery." "At Nuremberg..." "[Int. ] But Klarsfeld was too young..." "The French envoy's age, but never mentioned Barbie's name was typed below it." "[Int." "German] So it's implied the issue is that Jewish groups forged it after the war." "How would the Allies at the end of the war, have known who Barbie was?" "He was really very small fry." "[Int. ] Even at Nuremberg, the telex was signed?" "Yes, even in 1946 at Nuremberg, it was debated, as was the whole case of the Izieu children." "[French] The photostats were published repeatedly, but their composition was changed for layout purposes." "[int. ] Vergès played on that." "Yes, but you saw what happened in court." "While Vergès spoke, the jurors was looking at the original." "[Choir sings German folksong]" "[Int. ] Mr Prosecutor, while Barbie was in the courtroom, why did you ask him to speak about his youth?" "Because I think there's a basic issue in this case:" "How can crimes against humanity be committed by a man?" "There is a man." "Who is he?" "[Journalist] What made you decide to leave?" "[German] I have nothing to say." "[German] Nothing to say." "[Journalist] Nothing to say?" "[special correspondent "Liberation"] [French] Can they extradite him?" "No." "I can't see what grounds they would have." "I'll send you a 6-page story about today's proceedings." "I don't know yet if Holford and Streim testify today, or witnesses of the raid on Ugif," "Barbie's raid on the Union of French Jews office." "They'll be the first real witnesses." "It'll be a good story." "[professor of languages] Behind that table... desk... was Barbie." "He started asking me questions in German... and I didn't understand." "I pretended that I didn't understand a word of German." "There was literally a captive audience." "Some of them I knew very well." " Most of them died?" " All of them." "There were 3 Gestapo officers right behind me... one of them was very close behind me." "Practically behind my left ear." "Pulled out a gun..." "I could hear the click..." "Saying in a low voice into my left ear... but to the 2 others..." "In German, well... "I may as well finish him off. "" "I controlled by reflexes, because I knew if I showed any sign I understood..." "My fate would be sealed." "He was now convinced that I did not understand German... and he gathered all my documents, my papers... and handed them to me and said "You can go. "" "[Int." "French] Mr Truche" "You've challenged several witnesses' credibility." "Why did you challenge Michel Thomas?" "My idea of serving justice is to rely only on evidence that cannot be contested." "[Int. ] What makes Thomas less credible than the others?" "His story is inconsistent." "Sometimes true stories seem hard to believe." "I can't build my case on what is hard to believe." "[agricultural worker]" "[Int. ] Mr Favet, I came here last February." "There was snow, and it was lovely in fact." "You refused to see us then, you wouldn't give an interview." "Could you say why?" "I had at least one good reason..." "[Favet] I've about had it!" "[Int. ] What?" " I've had it with the TV" " You've had it?" "Julien Favet is a very fine man." "He really feels what he says." "But I can't say to people," ""You are to condemn a man for serious crimes,"" ""on testimony of a witness who 40 years back,"" ""saw someone for a few seconds. "" "[int. ] More than that." "He says it was 2 or 3 minutes." "And he knew the children." "It was a major event in his life." "Of course, his testimony about the children..." "They liked me." "I used to play with them." "[Int. ] You mentioned his accident." "You used the word "lobotomy"." "That seems to have been a mistake." "I doubt I used it in court." "If I did use it in came from the file." " A mistake in the files?" " Possibly." "[Int. ] Still, it has an impact on this man's life, challenging his credibility." "[attorney at law] Favet is handicapped..." "an accident with a tree branch." "[Int. ] When he was a child?" "Later, felling trees." "More recently, after the war." "I summoned Favet because he was an eyewitness to the event." "I knew very well that his credibility had been questioned." "[Int. ] Do the villagers believe him?" "Oh, yes!" "Besides, he wasn't alone." "It was the morning of April 6, 1944." "As usual, I got up very early." "It was already full daylight." "The boss told me to dig near the vines, to plant asparagus." "As I was crossing the yard, 2 of the kids called from the dormitory windows," ""Mr Julien!" "tell Mrs Perticos"..." "the wife of my boss..." ""we can't take the cows out this morning. "" ""We have to clean the dorm. "" "These 2 brothers often came over." "Had they that morning, they would have been saved." "[director children's home at Izieu. ] Favet is the type who belongs to the land." " [int. ] To France?" " To the land." "Some kids, 7, 8, 10 years old... tried to jump off the truck." "With my own eyes, it's true, I saw a German soldier kick a child hard in the stomach." "He probably told you how the children brought him breakfast every day." "The day the Germans came, he went out for a look, because no one had brought him his food." "Maybe those kids would have been found eventually, but somebody sped things up by betraying them." "[Int. ] They were betrayed?" "Yes, by the militia." "[Int. ] Informed on..." "do you know by whom?" "Did you see the informer?" "Yes, one of them, anyway." "[Int. ] When, and how?" " Mr Bourdon." " Yes?" "Barbie was with a militiaman." "Another, identically dressed, was beside him." "That was Mr Bourdon." "All three were leaning on the big stone troughs in the yard." "Barbie stayed 3 or 4 minutes, conferring with them." "He was facing me." "He said something to me which I understood as" ""Get out. " He turned and walked away." "I left." "He wasn't called to testify at the first trial in 1947, not Barbie's but Bourdon's." " [Int. ] The informer?" " Yes, the informer." "Perticos was called to testify, not Favet." "Perticos was a farmer." "He's dead now." "Julien Favet was his hired hand." "Back then, servants never testified if their masters did." "[Int. ] So what became of Bourdon?" " No idea." "Never saw him again." " he never returned?" "Oh no!" "It wasn't the time for that." "[Int. ] German witnesses could have testified whether or not Barbie was present." "But German witnesses won't come to France to testify in such trials." "It's easier to blame everything on Barbie and the SS." "Barbie and the SS are the murderers." "Open and shut case." "The case is closed." "Even today, the Wehmacht is still..." "So no one wanted to explore that side of it." "The problem wasn't who arrested the children, but who, when they got to Montluc that evening, decided to send them on to Germany to their deaths." "It's monstrous to see little kids, of 7 to 10, kicked in the stomach, hit with gun butts, and carted off to the gas chambers." "[Woman] Before the arrests, the Resistance supplied us." "[Int. ] The local partisans?" " Yes." "And from the Jura [mountains]." "[Int. ] Did they know that Jewish children were hidden there?" "They knew very well." "[Int. ] And the village, apart from the pro-Vichy mayor?" "My husband saw the villagers often." "He bought vegetables from the farmers." "I remember old man Zlatin." " [Int. ] Old man Zlatin." " Yes." "He came daily for milk and vegetables." "I don't know what they thought." "Some were for the mayor... others against." "[Int. ] The pro-Vichy mayor?" " Yes." "Even though the mayor wasn't invited, to the monument's inauguration, he was re-elected twice after the war." "On the monument, there's a line from Hemingway." ""We are part of the continent," ""and each time a man dies, we die a little. "" "There was something else, too." "We are part of the continent and" "Izieu was a small part of the continent." "I was introduced to Barbie in Judge Riss's presence." "I was seated at an oval table." "There was also a secretary and Mr Vergès." "[Int. ] Who questioned?" " No one." " No questions?" " Sometimes Vergès smiled." "It was as if he thought" ""Anything this man says is rubbish. "" "The charges are unfounded." "Barbie is on trial as a member of an organization." "What notions of justice." "Collective responsibility again" "He said to reporters," ""The more precise the witness statement was," ""The more fun we had. "" "This trial is staged against France." "It tries to reopen old wounds." "So I think for the sake of justice, truth and France... we must say "No and no again!"" "Everything I said to Vergès, felt like autumn leaves." "You rake them up or you let them rot... no difference." "I say this trial is against the interests of France." "We assert that France will be divided." "Continuing our past, and it's time to go over... to go forward." "[writer] [French] It's 10.30 - and we are awaiting a verdict." "For me, this trial is pessimism." "The notion of a crime against humanity... the charge against Barbie was never clarified." "The defense deliberately obscured it." "The State didn't present it properly." "All along we should have pondered and deplored the fact that a black, and Arab, a Bolivian, and Vergès, who claims Asian ancestry, rose to defend a Nazi, and did so because of their race... their non-European status." "Imagine someone in 1945, at the end of the war, predicting in 20 or 30 years, an SS torturer, charged and convicted, would be defended by the people the Nazis deemed subhuman." "It would have been a big joke." "It's a victory for democracy, every time a defense lawyer can plead as he sees fit." "What I would point out is this:" "Barbie was convicted on all counts." "Not one extenuating circumstance was granted, every defense argument was rejected." "I would point out that Lieutenant Barbie was sentenced to life imprisonment." "whereas at Nuremberg..." "Hitler's successor, Admiral Donitz, did not receive a life sentence." "Clearly we are outdoing out mentors." "[Journalist] Will you appeal?" "[Vergès] We'll file an appeal tomorrow of course." "[attorney-at-law] Justice, only justice, and I'm very proud of the French justice." "[local "Le Progrès" correspondent] [French] I was at school when some children from Izieu" "were boarding with our principal." "[Int. ] In Belley?" " Yes." "Next to me was a boy from the Izieu home named Mayer Bulka, whose parents came from Poland, and had been rounded up in the famous Vel d'Hiv raid in Paris." "Mayer knew perfectly well where his parents were." "He knew." "[Int. ] When he was in school, did he know his parents had been deported?" "They all suspected as much." "Maurice Gerenstein and Max Balsam said much less." "Bulka sat beside me." "We shared a desk." "Bulka was very withdrawn and often very sad." "I remember the 3 boys as being outstanding students, especially in mathematics." "The older ones knew something was up." "Either someone told them, or they figured it out." "I don't know which." "But the little ones... how could they understand?" "[Man] A letter from Alice Jacqueline Lutzgart, 10 years old, to her mother in southern France." "February 26, 1944." ""Dear Mummy, thank you for the clogs." ""My feet will be warm now" ""The snow is melting here and the sun is out." ""Soon it will be spring." ""How nice!" "Spring is lovely with the trees blossoming" ""and budding." ""I hope you got my letter asking you to take pictures." "" I forget what the south looks like." ""Of course I was very small when I lived there." ""Fanny's going to send me the blue checkered skirt." ""I have nothing else to say," ""So I stop here and send you a big kiss." ""Your loving daughter Jacqueline. "" "[Woman] I was so happy in this yard." "[Int. ] Where did you live?" " On the top floor." "My father was washing his hands when the SS rang the doorbell." "He looked out and saw the SS blocking both exits." "We had 2 doors." "I know you, you're the tenant, or is that another gentleman?" " You look alike. [Int." "] No." "I don't live here." "but you must know Mrs Lagrange." "Yes, but I can't quite place her." "Mrs Lagrange lived on the floor above you." "But..." " Simone Kaddouche." " Eh?" "I'm Simone Kaddouche." "I lived here." " In Mrs Kaddouche's time?" " Yes." "How could I recognize you?" "People change." " You haven't changed." " Sure I have, I'm 77!" "What did you say your maiden name was?" " Kaddouche." " Kaddouche." "I wouldn't have recognized you." "Your face was familiar, but not the name." "[Int. ] Were you here when the Kaddouches were arrested?" " Yes." " [Int. ] Did you see it?" "Yes, I moved here in 1942." "[Int. ] Then you were here when the SS came." " When what?" " [Int. ] When the SS came" "I can't recall if it was in the street or here." "So you're the Kaddouches who were deported?" "Oh... and you were the oldest girl, the one who had the luck to return?" " It's you!" " It's me." "I wouldn't have known." "Your parents didn't return?" " They didn't." " How sad." " I'll never forget that." " Neither will I." "Of course not..." "I'll never forget it." " The day I was arrested..." " Eh?" "The day I was arrested, you were home." " Mrs Bontout lived opposite." " That's right." "She alone tried to get me away from the SS." "Oh yes..." "Mrs Serrès stayed inside." " [Int. ] The one we just met?" " Yes." "Mrs Bontout was over here." "She let my mother and father pass." "Then she tugged at my sleeve to pull me into her place, safe from the SS." " [Int. ] Why didn't it work?" " Goitzman turned around." "He came back and forced me down the stairs.." "Mrs Bontout got slapped so hard she had to give up." "[Int. ] And where was Mrs Serrès?" "She'd shut herself away." "I don't know what became of Mrs Bontout, but I feel a fondness for her I don't feel for anyone else." " [Int. ] Did you see her again?" " No." "This motion picture is dedicated to the late Mrs Bontout, a good neighbor." "[Choir sings German folk song]"