"This has been such an important general election." "Wherever you are in the UK, it matters to you." "It's given us a government with a majority, yes, but it's also created more tension over whether Scotland stays with the rest of the UK." "So will this be the election that begins the break-up of the country?" "It's Panorama Live." "Hello, and welcome to this live edition of Panorama from the heart of Westminster." "The Houses of Parliament are just down the road from here." "They won't have to accommodate the messy coalition that the pollsters predicted, but they will be home to the 56" "Scottish nationalist MPs who turned up here for the first time today." "There they are, all cheering." "Because of the very different way Scotland voted, many people now think that the gap between the different parts of the UK has never been wider." "Scotland will get some more powers." "There may be English votes for English laws, but will that solve the problem?" "Our audience from across the UK want to get in on that, but first, do meet our panel, the SNP's Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, just elected as an MP," "John Redwood, who was a Conservative Cabinet minister, historian Dan Snow and the singer and Labour supporter Billy Bragg." "APPLAUSE" "Scotland was the one issue that really dominated this election, both north and south of the border." "Last week, Shelley Jofre visited Irvine, on the west coast of Ayrshire, her home town but also the place where" "Nicola Sturgeon was brought up." "The aim - to find out how the SNP did it." "The sun went down on Scottish Labour last Thursday in the most spectacular fashion." "The total number of votes given to each candidate was as follows." "Philippa Whitford, Scottish National Party, 26 thousand..." "CHEERING" "A massive defeat for Labour in its Ayrshire heartlands." "The day before, the local MP didn't see it coming." "A 12,007 majority." "That's a heck of a hill to claim for any other party, and so therefore I think and predict that it's possible I'll get by between 500 and 1,500 of a majority." "How are you?" "On the streets of Irvine, the SNP were hearing fighting talk." " I hope to God we slaughter them." " Well, let's hope." "We'll do our best." "And slaughter them they did, right across Scotland." "CHEERING" "So why has this happened?" "This is the comprehensive I went to in the 1980s, the same school as SNP leader Nicola Sturgeon, though she was in the year below me." "Back then, it seemed like political choices round here were set in stone." "As a teenager, Nicola Sturgeon joined the local SNP." "That was unusual." "Among my friends, the SNP were dismissed as "tartan Tories"" "back then." "'But now my old school friends tell a different story.'" " Hi, Garry, how are you?" " Good to see you!" " And you." "Hi, Steven." "It's lovely to see you." "We need the change." "There needs to be something different." "Labour's been here too long." "There's a good feeling about the SNP, and I think that people in Scotland have gotten that and they're getting behind them, and I think that's one of the main reasons." "'And they think the local girl done good.'" "In the debates, I would say Nicola Sturgeon seems to be... ..kicking their ass, to say." "'Political priorities are different here." "'While England voted to steady the ship, 'the SNP's anti-austerity message has proved widely popular." "'I used to play in a local band." "'Coming back before polling day, I didn't expect to find 'so much passion for the SNP." "'But it's not a romantic nationalism at play.'" "The SNP are a more original left-wing party." "They've gone back to the socialist values which Labour used to actually adhere to." "I'll be voting SNP." "When you see people going to food banks every day, you know, they can't afford to live..." "'After the vote, I caught up with the band again." "'Are their expectations for what the SNP can achieve at Westminster 'realistic?" "'" "On issues like Trident and food banks, the bedroom tax, these are all issues that people face on a day-to-day basis, and they need to be pushed through by the SNP in Westminster." "But the Conservatives have got a majority." " They don't have to do any of that." " The Tory Party would be really... it would be unwise for them not to listen to the will of the Scottish people." "'Is another independence referendum now inevitable?" "'" "I think there are expectations from some of the Scottish people, and I think the expectations of what they would want the SNP to do is going to be high, and that's going to be the hard bit for Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP," "because they've said no, it's not going to happen." "'I'm left wondering what price the SNP can hope to 'exact from the Conservative government to keep the Union intact." "'Or is this really the beginning of the end?" "'" "Shelley Jofre reporting there." "Let's talk to a member of our audience here who was watching that." "Michael Cameron, you're an SNP supporter." "What are you expecting out of this big moment, with MPs coming down to London?" "Well, it's very difficult to say." "Er, I said to your producer when she called me up that David Cameron now has it within his power to make or break the Union." "It's, er..." "He's strung up a tightrope that he has to walk." "He's got to listen to us, or else he'll be viewed as a colonial master." "But if he listens to us too much, he has his own party, and he'll have enough trouble keeping those under control, anyway!" "Well, John Redwood MP, is Michael going to be disappointed?" " Does David Cameron have to listen to the SNP?" " Yes, of course." "We listen to the will of the people, and a very strong will was expressed in Scotland." "The Prime Minister believes passionately in the Union." "We're very pleased that all of the SNP representatives were elected on the basis that the referendum had settled the Union and that they are coming to Westminster to get a better deal for Scotland." "We understand that." "We wish to grant more powers of self-government to Scotland." "We will honour the promises and we will look at the deal on offer and see if it needs to be improved." "And as to banishing austerity," "I wrote to my electors about how I hated austerity and austerity had been visited on this country by Labour with the banking crash" " and the great recession at the end of the previous decade." " So you're not..." "And we are getting out of austerity, and that is the whole point of Conservative policy - tax cuts for all, prosperity for the many." "But, Michael, you're sitting next to Hazel." "You also support the SNP." "Is the deal with 56 SNP MPs you get out of austerity?" "Is that what you're expecting?" "Well, I'm hoping that it allows more progressive ideas and solutions to be heard in Parliament and hopefully give the other side a chance to maybe look at their policies and see if it really is good for the country." "Tasmina Ahmed-Sheikh, can you deliver on that?" "Well, we were elected, all 56 of us, on a promise of being progressive voices at Westminster to benefit and be a strong voice for Scotland, as Hazel has indicated, but also to hopefully affect progressive politics across the UK." "We wish to extend a hand of friendship and hopefully offer some direction to the other politicians in terms of what the constituent parts of the UK require." "Without a Labour government, don't you just lose all your leverage?" "Well, of course it's most unfortunate for the people of the whole of the United Kingdom that Labour performed so appallingly in the general election and we are left with a Tory government that again the people of Scotland didn't vote for and many" "people in the rest of the United Kingdom didn't vote for either." "However, we are where we are." "We're democrats." "The people have spoken in Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, and it's incumbent upon all of us to work together to bring forward progressive policies and take away some of the pain of austerity." " APPLAUSE" " Dan Snow, historian... ..just war-game this one for us, as you're very good at doing." "So, Tasmina comes to London and Michael and Hazel want her to end austerity, and she tries, and the Conservatives," "John Redwood among them, say, "That's not the deal"." "What next?" " We're not interested in austerity..." " Hang on, just let Dan answer that." "Well, that's the joy of Nicola Sturgeon's position." "Before the election, she wanted English voters to think this mighty band of Scotsmen were going to come down and trash the UK." "After the election, she needs to accept the fact that it benefits her that this band of Scottish MPs, who've quite rightly been elected and are coming to Westminster, are going to be ignored, because that's our first-past-the-post system," "where these guys have a parliamentary majority, so she can then say, "You see?" "We sent all these MPs down," ""they've been ignored," ""and that then builds this sense that we are different" ""somehow between those of us in the rest of the UK and Scotland"." "And the next thing is the next referendum on independence, is it?" "Obviously, in the long term there's a referendum on independence, because she needs to do what she can to create this idea that there are huge differences between the people of England," "Wales and Ireland and of Scotland." "Let me come to one of our... first voters?" " This election was your first vote?" " My second." " Your second." "OK." "Matt Kilcoyne, what do you think about this?" "You work in London, you're watching all this." "I know you care about it." "I 100% agree." "I'm originally from North Wales." "The idea that we create a difference is exactly what devolution has done across the entirety of the United Kingdom." "Every single time, we've had more and more devolution, it's been pushed on us as an agenda." "There's never the push back." "If we're going to have a federal United Kingdom, this devolution settlement, we need to start having MPs on all sides saying, "This is what we" ""want to have federally," but actually we need a mature debate." "So you think the gap between England and Scotland has never been wider?" "I don't mind about England and Scotland." "I'm talking about all of Britain." "We are all pulling in different directions." "As we were saying earlier, there is a large contingent of SNPs controlling the entirety of Scotland." "In the south and in the south-west of England, there's almost no others apart from the Conservative Party." "In Wales, it's a mixed bag." "We need to have parties that are willing to say and really stand up for one nation if we're going to continue as a united kingdom." "Billy Bragg, Labour are getting the blame for this, because you lost in Scotland and you lost in England." "Well, I think" "Labour were defeated by people pulling in a number of different directions, and clearly one of them was anti-Westminster politics, which is examples of the way people voted for Ukip, for the Greens and for the SNP as well." "But I think what happens next is more complicated than just the numbers in the Commons, because I feel that now, with all respect to the SNP, the de facto opposition are the people of Scotland, that if David Cameron wants to take on the unions," "if he wants to carry on with the bedroom tax, if he wants to renew Trident, he's got to think in the back of his mind, "What is this going to do to public opinion in Scotland?" ""Is this going to create a bigger break in the Union?"" "Why would he mind?" "He's only got one MP there." "Because he doesn't want to be the prime minister that loses the Union, and I don't think there's any more, outside of Northern" "Ireland, a more unionist gathering than a Conservative cabinet." "And I think they'll work..." "HE COUGHS Excuse me." "..very hard to keep the people of Scotland onside." "John Redwood, can you imagine saying at some point," ""Look, this doesn't work any more and they should go their own way"?" "The Conservative Party is a party of the Union, and our Prime Minister leader is very strongly of the view that we should do everything in our power to create a Union which all parts can be happy with." "I'm thinking you're saying yes, slightly." " That is what we'll do in good faith." " But if they're not happy?" "It's not entirely in our gift." "We are very conscious that we have good voting support in many parts of the country but that we didn't win 60%, 70% of the vote, we don't speak for everybody, and I've told you that we're going to listen very carefully to what" "Scottish nationalists and Labour and others say about these matters." "This is about our country as a whole, not just a Conservative country." "But what we are also going to do is speak up for England, because as we all agree now that Scotland needs a lot more self-government, and promises have been made and will be honoured, so we need to be fair to England as well, otherwise..." " Will you give us a parliament, then, John?" " No, it won't be..." " Why not?" "The Scots have one, the Welsh have one, and one in Northern Ireland." "SCATTERED APPLAUSE Because we believe in being frugal, and we think that people like me can do both jobs, Billy." "We don't think they need two lots of politicians." " Just let me ask Tasmina..." " Politicians aren't..." "Just a second, John." "Tasmina, one of the problems here is that the SNP has decided to vote on matters that affect England." "So you will be happy to vote, for example, on matters that affect the NHS in England, is that correct, and Wales, for that matter?" "Well, there are a number of issues." "First, we need to remember and remind all of ourselves here that we live in a democracy." "We should stop trying to tell people what they should be voting for because it suits certain political parties and respect the will of the people, wherever they live in these islands." "So if people have voted for the SNP in the numbers that they have, we need to respect the will of those people and take that will forward." "Why is it acceptable for you to vote on the NHS in Cornwall?" "Because our budget in Scotland is directly affected by what happens with the NHS budget south of the border, and not only do we need to protect our budget to ensure that the NHS remains in public hands, but we can also help the people of England who want to retain" "a publicly funded National Health Service, and in actual fact, this is one perfect example..." "The expression on John Redwood's face is a picture." "Well, it is at risk, John." "We believe in the NHS and won't change it in the way you say." " It is at risk." "And this is one perfect example..." " Nonsense." "..of how we can extend the hand of friendship, and with our numbers, of which there are 56, work with the people across the United Kingdom to retain a publicly funded health service." "Dan, one day into the new situation and there's trouble already." "What's interesting about the 56 MPs is actually they're in opposition, they're irrelevant, whether we like it or not." "These guys have a majority." "You get over the line, you do what you like." "What is more interesting and more open are the 56 are an expression of a surge in Scotland, or actually in fact less people voted in Scotland for the SNP than voted yes in the referendum, but they are an expression of that," "so the relationship that's important is between Nicola Sturgeon and David Cameron, not between David Cameron and those MPs in Parliament, and it's what powers he gives to Nicola Sturgeon that is going to be the big question." "Do you guys want full fiscal autonomy?" "Those are the big issues." "A quick question from down here, from this gentleman over here." " Tell us your name, sir." "Stand up, if you can." " Sorry." "My name's Elliot Corner." "I'm a Green Party voter." "I think it's very, very telling here that the only people talking about another referendum is everyone except the SNP, quite frankly." "APPLAUSE" " They should want one?" " I think the SNP, if they want a referendum, of course they're going to go for a referendum, but I think quite frankly here everyone else is pushing the issue." "If you look at the vote share in England, 1.1 million people voted for the Green Party, which is just as clear an anti-austerity message as the SNP, and that has to be representative." "Thank you very much indeed." "It's a good point to come back to, on this, Tasmina." "I presume that still your constitution, point one is you want independence, and that is what you're in Westminster for, to further the cause of Scottish independence." "Jeremy, we have just had our independence referendum." "The people of Scotland spoke." "55% of the population voted against independence." "We fought this election on a campaign of having a strong voice at Westminster, and it's really rather telling." "It's not the first time that Scotland has sent 59 MPs to Westminster." "These gentlemen seem to be rather concerned about the fact that 56 of those are SNP MPs." "Perhaps it's because for the very first time Scotland's going to have a strong voice and, as I said, extending a hand of friendship so we can bring some progress to politics, and let's not undermine democracy." "We'll come back to you in a second." "I can see a hand up over there." "We will try and come to people who want to speak in a few moments." "Around 1.5 million people voted SNP in Scotland, as you've been pointing out, Tasmina." "However, despite polling nearly four million votes, Ukip ended up with 55 fewer MPs, and historian Tim Newark believes the system is broken." "He finds some angry allies in one particular English constituency." "'Grimsby town hall, the finest building in town 'but a symbol of what once was.'" "My job is studying the past, and this town has had a fabulous past, but its future is looking far less certain." "Things are changing." "There's a rebel spirit here, and it looks as though political history might be in the making." "'Grimsby has always been a Labour stronghold, but Ukip identified it 'as a target seat.'" "If you were going to vote, who would you vote for?" " Or are you...?" " Ukip." " Ukip?" " Exactly." "All the way." " Yeah, yeah." " Good lad." "Ukip will take votes in every constituency." "I don't think it's just this one." "They'll take votes everywhere." "We love Ukip." "Everything's going for a change, and we think they'll do it." "All down the east coast, and that goes down to Thanet right up to Great Grimsby, we've been neglected for years." "It's a spiral of hopelessness and unemployment." "This is not just a flash in the pan, this is not just a protest." "'Almost all of this town's problems stem from this." "'These docks were once home to a mighty fishing fleet." "'The demise of the industry all but killed the town." "'Thousands have depended on fishing for their livelihood." "'Nothing has replaced it." "'For many of the town's fishermen, Europe is the villain 'but Ukip represents hope.'" "# There'll be bluebirds over" "# The White Cliffs of Dover... #" "'Pub landlord and Ukip council candidate Mark Smith 'is among those who feel that this will be Ukip's day.'" "The people of Grimsby now are feeling that the party that's listening to them is Ukip and Victoria is certainly a lady that will listen to the electorate of Grimsby." "'When the result comes, it is 'a major disappointment for Victoria Ayling and for Ukip nationally.'" "Victoria Caroline, UK Independence Party, 8,417." "'Labour hold the seat.'" "CHEERING" "What's gone wrong?" "The current system of first past the post is not fit for purpose." "It is undemocratic and it allows a stitch-up between the two main parties which you saw tonight." "'In the cold light of day, what did Mark Smith think of it all?" "'" "Well, it's hard to say, really." "I think the whole country's in a bit of a shock at the moment after the way things have turned out." "You only have to look at the figures." "If you put the Greens and Ukip together, five million votes, two seats." "Scotland, less votes, more seats." "Just doesn't make sense." ""Ukip supporters in Grimsby are baffled." "'Ukip are the third biggest party on votes cast but only have one MP." "'How, they ask, can that be right?" "'If people feel that politics is not working for them 'and that they have no voice, could this not be as much of a danger 'to our United Kingdom as the roar of Scottish nationalism?" "'" "That was historian Tim Newark, and let's go to Abigail Chase, who's in the audience here." "Do you think some parts of England don't have a voice?" "Yes." "Although I'm quite happy that the Conservatives did take power, I think there is something to be said for the fact that so many people did vote for Ukip and they've only got one representative." "They got far more of the vote than the SNP did in Scotland, and I think it's time to really consider whether there should be an English parliament or whether we do actually need to move to a system of proportional representation" "to ensure that those people feel that their voices are heard within the UK." "OK." "I can see hands up over here." "Let me just move down here." "Yes, what do you want to say about the English voice here?" "I think that it's time to move to a more proportional system, because, as we saw with the recent general election results, they were undemocratic and unrepresentative of the views of what the UK actually want." "So, as we see, SNP, they got less votes than the Greens, Ukip and" "Lib Dem but they still got more than 50 seats than any one of those three." "Tasmina, can you give any comfort there?" "Well, we have of course in the Scotland Parliament a system of PR which works extremely well." "We have many parties involved in that system." "But of course, even in 2011, the SNP managed to break that electoral system by having a majority." "I mean, I'm in favour, of course, of electoral reform, and it works, as I say, well in Scotland." "But you know, as I say, Scotland has always returned 59 MPs." "It just so happens that this time, 56 of them are SNP ones." "Anyone else feeling that England or Wales or parts that aren't" "Scotland were hard done by in this election, there needs to be a change?" "You want to say something else." "What do you want to say?" "Well, I wanted to say first of all congratulations that we haven't got a Ukip MP... we've got one Ukip MP." "It would have have been absolutely catastrophic if we had any more than one Ukip MP." "How is it fair, given the amount of votes they got?" "Because they didn't win enough support in the area, so therefore how can they have representation in that area?" " The same goes for the Green Party?" " The same goes for the Green Party." "If you vote in somebody, then you want that person to represent you, so in Lewisham, let's say, you would want a Labour MP, wouldn't you?" "You wouldn't want a Tory MP." "So first past the post works all right?" " Exactly." " All right." "Anyone else?" "Yes, sir?" "Over here." " Should I stand up?" " Do, if you can." "I think first past the post has its flaws, but you can't argue with the fact that the Tories got more votes than anybody else and if you've got some Ukip, some Green, some SNP," "some Tory, we're going to have a coalition that wouldn't work anyway." "OK." "The thing about the election result, Dan Snow, is that basically if you take England, it did vote Conservative and it ended up blue." "Our electoral system is an absolute disgrace, and it's actually ripping this country apart." "APPLAUSE" "In Scotland, 50% of people voted for the SNP, a fantastic result for the SNP, but they won nearly every single seat in Scotland." "We are exaggerating regional differences in this country." "A voting system should be a place where we can come together to compromise and find the middle ground." "Instead, it's a place that drives you apart and it benefits you." "In southern England, millions of people voted Labour." "In northern England and Scotland, millions voted for Conservatives, but this week we're all saying, "Oh, southern England's all Tory." " "How divided we are." "We're completely different."" " Billy Bragg?" "If you look at our social attitudes from England to" "Scotland, Orkney to Cornwall, we agree on nearly everything." "But it worked so well, this system, for Labour." "No, it didn't, because where I live in West Dorset, the Tories have been in power there since the 1880s, but where I come from in Barking, Labour have been in power since 1931." "Now, there are undoubtedly Ukip and Tories in Barking, just as there are Labour supporters in the south-west, and it undermines the participation in our democratic process." "A third of adults are not voting in this country." " Because their voice isn't heard." " John Redwood, what was your majority" " at this election, by the way?" " 24,000." "Well, that's your highest, isn't it, so far, didn't I read somewhere?" "It was the highest as a percentage of the vote, but I did have more votes when I had a bigger seat." "So presumably we're not quarrelling that John Redwood should represent Wokingham here, because he came first, fair and square?" " Well, what percentage of votes did you get?" " I got 57% of the vote." "You'd be the MP under any system we had." "But I don't just speak for the 57%." "I'm very conscious, as all MPs are, that we speak for 100% of our constituents from the day after we've been elected, and that is our system." "We have MPs as local representatives, so they have to work in the community and appeal to the local community." "You can't just jet in three months before the election from some national party and say, "I'd now like to be your MP,"" "which some of these fringe parties seem to think they can do." "You've got to be there and be part of it." "And then you're also a national legislator and you obviously express national views." "Let's get some more views from the audience" " I can see your hand up - about whether England, people in parts of England because of the voting system feel, "hang on, we've got a problem as well"." " You can stand up, yeah." "Why not?" " Thank you!" "I do think we have a problem." "I know friends of mine in England on Facebook are devastated by the result of this election, people in Cornwall who have lost their representation," "Liberal Democrat, maybe Labour." "I think one slight difference between Scotland and the Scotland return and the Ukip in England is the SNP only were standing in 59 seats, whereas the Ukip were standing in, I think, over..." " I don't know, every seat." " Most of them." " Most of them." "And that split that vote." "PR is difficult." "It makes you listen to voices that you don't want to hear." "We haven't got that much longer." "Yes, sir?" "If we'd had another hung parliament, then the argument for PR would have been stronger." "The fact is, first past the post has got in another Conservative government, so it weakens that assertion." "And the other thing is this whole issue about the English, the Welsh and this, that and the other, as Oscar Wilde said, patriotism is the virtue of the vicious." "Just be careful of that." "Didn't he say "last refuge of the scoundrel", wasn't it?" "Yeah." "OK." "Let's come over here." "Just one more from the audience." "It just worries me that the last time the AV vote was pitched to the electorate, that we turned it down, and we're bringing it up again, and I wish that maybe last time we'd have changed our minds and we'd gone for AV," "then we'd have more multiparty politics which represents the politics of our country right now." "It is true, isn't it, that..." "We're almost speaking as if there wasn't that AV referendum, but there was, and the only two parts of the country that voted for it were Islington and Southwark in London." "So it's gone, isn't it, Tasmina?" "Well, until it's of course presented to the people again to vote on." "But at the end of the day, as I said, we were desperately disappointed in Scotland at another Tory government we didn't vote for." " Well, the UK voted for it, though." " Yes, but..." "I do think it's worth mentioning that if we did have PR, we would now have a Ukip-Tory government." "Despite your friends on Facebook being upset with the result, I think under PR we..." " Is that right?" " I think we would have." "But at least it would be fair." "That's the important thing." "People would feel their voices have been heard." "The Conservative government is very conscious that there is a huge constitutional problem that we have to lead on, but we want to involve other people so we get consent and a general discussion." "And it is quite enough to have to tackle new self-government powers for Scotland, some justice and self-government for England and deal with the relationship with the EU, which is clearly changing as they centralise and go to their political union." "We can't do voting reform at the same time." "We are not about to do voting reform for two very good reasons, because the public turned it down in a referendum recently and it wasn't in our manifesto." "It's not something we're trying to do." "Is the upshot of all this, Dan Snow" " I come to the historian at the end here - that actually the UK can't be held together?" " Is that what this means?" " No, it means that under the present system, there are forces that are driving us apart when most of the people in the UK want to stay together." "Scotland voted to stay together," "English and Welsh and Northern Irish people want to stay together, and yet we are embracing a system that is driving us apart." "Well, thank you very much indeed, everyone." "That's it for tonight." "Thanks to my panel and our wonderful studio audience." "Panorama will be back next Monday at 8.30." "Good night." "APPLAUSE"