"Previously on "In Treatment"..." "Teachers marry students." "There's no big deal about it." "What's that " " I mean, is it really wrong?" "Okay, let's say, I stopped Laura's therapy." "Surely, in a year, 18 months, when it's cooled off " "No, Paul, no, there's no cooling-off period." "But that's some bullshit some lawyer came up with." "No, it's not a law." "It's beyond a code of ethics." "It's something you carry inside you." "You know, there's a lot of people who would disagree with this." "Then go to them." "It's really tough when I'm alone with her, you know... and -- she's asking me:" ""Please, just be honest." "Please, tell me how you feel."" "And I can't." "Paul... you need to say it." "I love her." "S01E25:" "Paul and Gina, Week Five" "Hello." "Come in, come in." "Paul." " Hi, Gina." " Kate, hello." " It's good to see you." " And you." "You've been here before, right?" "Uh... it was, it was years ago." "Actually, it was, um... uh, the Argentineans, I think." "An institute conference." "Yes, that's right, that's right." " You look great." " Thank you." "So do you." "Um..." " This room's lovely." " Thank you." "I did some rearranging, but I'm not sure how comfortable I am in it." "I, I told myself I would write a few hours a day." "Did Paul tell you I retired?" "I..." "No." "No, Paul didn't tell me." " Writing... that's, that's... fantastic, uh..." " We'll see." "Yeah, I mean, I've often thought that I might try my hand, but, um... you know, I wouldn't ever dare." "So, um..." "It's a little unusual to have ongoing sessions with Paul and then to see the both of you." "I thought, it might be helpful if we all decided how to approach this." "I, um..." "I think I told you when I called you that this, this was Kate's suggestion." "You said that." "If I were you, I wouldn't be so sure I'd agree to it." "Why not?" "Well, we've blurred some lines here, you and I." "That's true, we have." "But I think we'll be okay if we set down some guidelines." "I was thinking, we could meet three times, re-evaluate and then decide where we want to go from there." "Okay?" "Yeah, good." "Now what, what made you decide to come here?" "Paul, you said that it was Kate's, uh, suggestion, but you're going along with it." "I, I, I think I told you about Kate, uh, going to Rome, and, uh... and who she went with." "She, uh... she got back and, uh... she said that it was over with that guy." "And, uh..." "I guess we both had the sense of:" ""So, what do we do now?"" "Kate did offer to talk about it and I couldn't." "I was too... angry." "I, I know, in couples therapy you try not to blame each other and I'm always telling my patients that, you know, like it's the simplest thing." "Now, here I am, and, uh..." "I can't stop blaming." "Intellectually, I get it, I'm half of the equation, but, uh..." "You said, you couldn't talk to Kate, so she hasn't heard any of this, how you feel." "Well, I think she knows that she hurt me... deeply... and that, uh... that I hated her." "Could you go into that?" "I hated you for thinking you were entitled to this, and you implied that I brought it on myself." "I couldn't shake it." "Every minute, I'd get a wave of rage and, and loss." "Why?" "Why loss?" "Because I really don't know if I can forgive her." "I've seen couples come back from this, but right now, I'll be damned if I know how they did it." "Anyway, she got back Tuesday, and I said, "Well, should I move out?"" "She said -- that wasn't what she wanted and..." "You tell her." "Uh, well, I, I just asked him why he couldn't talk to me about all of this, you know, everything we're going through." "Can you answer that, Paul?" "I just said I, I couldn't." "I tell patients that having someone cheating you is like mourning a death." "Who you were as a couple, the image that you have of yourself..." "It is like losing a loved one." "Oh, you, uh, keep telling us what you tell patients... but you're talking about your mourning, your rage, your loss." "You're sounding very controlled." "What, you want me to throw something?" "Try to strangle her?" "I can barely look at her." "I'm so..." "I feel like I'm falling apart." "You know..." "I should tell you this, and Kate already knows, I, uh..." "I attacked a patient in therapy." "The pilot." "In the middle of therapy, I jumped him, I " " I lost it." "Suddenly, I was on top of him." "I grabbed him." "I almost..." "I almost hit him." "Scared the hell out of me." "Or both of us, I guess." "Anyway, my first thought afterwards was that I was... reacting... to Kate." "She came home, during the session, she knocked at the door, back from..." "Rome." "I heard her outside the office, and then..." "What is it?" "I shouldn't... discuss a patient with, with Kate here." "You, you can't discuss a patient who's spying on me?" "He, he did all this, uh... uh, research about Kate and about... about my father." "He knew that Kate was in Italy with a... with another man and, uh, he..." " he threw it in my face." " How did he know that?" "He made calls." "People that had recommended me to him." "I, I don't know who they are." "Anyway, that's not the point." "Instead of handling it properly, I jumped in and, uh..." "Well, I..." "I lay in bed that night, thinking, "Do I take a month off?" "Do I take three months off?" "Maybe, maybe I should take a year off." "May-maybe I'm..." "Maybe I'm... maybe I'm all done."" " And that's my fault?" " What?" "Your creepy patient, he's my fault as well?" "Actually, it made me think how much I, I need you." " Do you?" " Yeah, you, the kids, the house, I..." "I need that." "I need that other place where I can..." "That -- what?" "Hang on." ""That other place"?" "Oh, Paul..." "I'm pretty sure we're supposed to be "the" place." "I, um -- sorry." "How does this work?" "Do we take turns?" " Is that how " " Sure." "Whatever you're comfortable with." "Um..." "Look, it's, it's always been very difficult for me, trying to describe what I'm feeling." "Um..." "When you're having a baby..." "Yeah?" "You're lying there... in that hospital bed and... and you don't need -- you don't want everything understood and shared and analyzed and discussed." "You..." "All you want to know is that... you're not alone and that your husband's hand is right there." "Um..." "But try describing... to your husband exactly what it feels like to have a child -- it's, it's just impossible." "A friend of mine once said, um," ""Take an umbrella, shove it up his ass, open it and pull." "Then, then he'll know."" "So someone sticking an umbrella up your ass is... what, what's the umbrella?" "Please don't analyze me." "Well, it's... quite an analogy." "I'm not your patient." "He, he, he doesn't get to interpret everything I say in here, does he?" "It's the same here as when Paul's at home." "He's not a psychotherapist here." "He's a man dealing with a crisis in his marriage." "He's not a therapist at home?" "Okay." "Can you go on, Kate?" "When you told me about..." "attacking your patient..." "I felt like that was for my benefit... that you just wanted to show me, what I'd done to you, by seeing Edward, how I'd ruined your life..." " well, your work." " You haven't ruined my life." "You, you're the best thing in it." "Well, I felt like you were putting on a show." "Christ." "You know, I believed you when you told me that you wanted me to stop seeing Edward." "I did." "But when you sit here right now and you tell me that I'm the best thing in your life..." "I don't believe that." "And that makes me so sad." "And the way you talk to me sometimes," "Oh!" "I mean I will ask you outright:" ""Do you love me?"" "And... you've said to me..." "you've looked at me and you've said," ""Yes... for now."" "It's..." "It's a joke." "Well, what the hell kind of a joke is that?" "Someone asks you if you love them... you don't think that they're feeling vulnerable?" "A little insecure, maybe?" "They need some reassurance?" "Everything we say has meaning." "That's your line." "But we don't mean everything that we say." "Well, which is it?" "I mean, that's pretty convenient for you, isn't it?" ""We don't mean what we say", fine, 'cause I don't believe a lot of what you say." "I mean, it's, it's, Gina just pointed it out." "You, you said, "I'm hurt,"" "but it sounded like you were reading something out of a psychology book or something." "How do you need me?" "You don't need me, I..." "I just don't believe that." "You know, when, when Paul and I were first seeing each other -- um..." "I couldn't get over how seriously he took me." "I'd really, I'd just never had that from anyone." "Up until then, I'd always pretty much felt, um... invisible." "And, uh... and there, there was also, there is this sort of... there was this exciting, new idea that... that under everything people say there's another intention and that there's this hidden meaning and... which just meant that everything had to be analyzed." "So, everything I said took on this importance... because he was working so hard to figure me out." "And he was... really the first person... who tried to understand me." "And I..." "Thank you." "And I just remember feeling... very grateful to him for that." "So, uh, it was quite a shock for me, to realize that it wasn't about me." "It had, it had... fuck all to do with me, really." "I mean, it was about him." "Because you don't actually understand me." "Understanding me, it's not about subtext, it's not about the subconscious, it's not about reading some kind of an X-ray, you know, it's, it's... it's just so clinical." "Actually, it's worse because you use it against me." "You think, you know what I mean before I've decided I know what I mean, and how am I supposed to argue with that?" "This is what I've gotten out of our marriage." "I've gotta go over everything ten different ways in my head." "I can't take anything at face value." "Nothing is simple." "Nothing is ever simple." "I hate it." "I hate that that's what I've become." "Just the patient, married to the doctor." "Well, uh... for someone who is asking how, how this whole thing works... you're doing a blue-ribbon job." "I give you that." "I didn't come here for you to grade my performance." "Kate, can you explain to Paul why you were seeing Edward?" "I don't want to explain." "No?" "No, this is exactly what I'm saying." "Why does everything have to be explained?" "Sometimes I just don't know, and sometimes I don't want to know." "Fine, uh..." "Initially, it was just... excitement and adrenaline." "And there was this possibility, when I woke up in the morning, that I may do something that I hadn't planned, or that I didn't even know I was capable of." "And that's who I was before I met Paul." "And, somewhere along the way, that part of me just... died or, I don't know, smothered." "The, the point I'm trying to make is, why can I not just trust myself to be who I am and... to just get on with it?" "Well, just because you don't look, it... it doesn't mean, there's nothing underneath." "Well, that's very profound, I'm sure." " There's still a reason why, why you " " Would you please stop it?" "I do not want your intellectual interpretation of everything I say." "I did it because I felt something." "What did you feel?" "Wanted." "Do you..." "I mean, do you want me to say that I want you?" "I do." "I want you." "That's why I'm here, so that you'll, you'll believe it." "Paul, do you feel that you need a witness to verify your love for Kate?" "Thank you." "Thank you." "I'm sorry, but I just keep getting this... this, uh, that, that image of, of Bill Clinton, that footage of him, him standing in front of all those cameras, and he's wagging his finger so adamantly, you know," ""I, I did not have sexual relations with that woman."" "Jeez, that's some comparison." "You know, I, I, I can't assert anything strongly enough, because, that would be a clear indication of my, uh... insincerity, but, on the other hand, if I don't state my feelings," " then that's something else." " Fair enough." "Maybe there's nothing you can say to me." "All I know is, I have to feel it in my gut to believe it." " And, and you don't." " No, I don't." "Do you remember?" "Do you remember what it feels like to be wanted?" "To be truly desired and pursued?" "It's not something you experience as a debate." "It's not an argument you need to be convinced of." "It's just this, this, this... this force that has to be... that has to be reckoned with." "What, what, what is it?" "Did I..." "What?" "What did I say?" "What's going on?" "Do you, do you know what transference is?" "When a, when a patient has feelings for their therapist which are... in fact, drawn from their relationships with their parents." "They, they, they project qualities onto the therapist that don't really exist, or, they can be just -- exaggerated." "And then, when they find the courage, the patient... well, they reach a level of trust, and they feel safe enough to express their desire for the... and, and, and... and so for a time, they, they, they," "the patient may experience feelings as if they're truly intended for the... for the... therapist." "Did you fuck her?" "What?" "Well, is that what you're telling me?" "I, I'm not sure." "Are you telling me that you slept with a patient?" "No, that's not what I'm..." "You asked me if I felt someone's desire for me." "And I'm saying:" "Yes!" "I have patients who've indicated feelings for me, only I'm not flying off to Rome to fuck them." "It happens in therapy all the time." "Has this happened to you?" "Yes, it has." "I've spoken to Gina about it." "It's really valuable for me to explore my own feelings with another therapist, so that they don't get in the way so that I can work through my feelings because then I don't let them get the best of me and ruin my marriage." "That's..." "All right, so exactly what kind of feelings has this woman provoked in you?" "What has he said to you?" "Kate, only Paul can answer that." "It's okay, he doesn't have to." "Uhh..." "This is why he needed to make some sort of a... declaration of commitment to me." "This is his wagging finger, this is his "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."" " But I didn't." " Doesn't matter." "This is not nothing." "If this were nothing, you wouldn't have brought it up here." "If this were just some patient with a -- silly crush..." "Is..." "Are you telling me that, that you've fallen in love with some patient that you're treating?" "Look, you have your insurance guy." "You don't get to play the outraged wife here." "Okay he's not an insurance guy, and you know it." "Thank you for another one of your stupid, painful jokes." "And I don't get to play outraged?" "Why don't you explain the last few weeks to me, while you've been running around like a goddamn martyr, the whole time you're chasing some patient." "Jesus Christ!" "You -- actually, let me, let me guess," "What is she?" "What is she?" "She's... some girl with a... with no father figure?" "What is she -- "He died, abandoned her when she was twelve"?" "Oh, he loves that type, I'll tell you." " How old is she?" " What type, Kate?" "Oh, uh, girls with that particular brand of dysfunction... a tasty little daddy complex so he can sweep them off " "It's daydreaming, that's all." "Maybe it's a little more than daydreaming, it's, it's..." "Look, I wanted to come clean here." "Now you know." "The reason I'm telling you, is because I want it to stop." "You want to stop what?" "You wanna stop wanting to fuck patients?" "How do you stop that?" "I don't know, but we might try acting like a couple who actually might want to be together." "Maybe you can describe to Kate what you're experiencing with this patient, like Kate did with Edward." "Look, you can't... you can't compare the..." "She slept with somebody." "I allowed myself a fantasy, that's all." "I never admitted it to this woman." "I certainly never, I certainly never acted on it." "But you were dying to." "Yes, I was dying to, but I didn't." "Anyway, she... she quit therapy." "I, I, I forgot to tell you, she quit therapy on Monday." "Well, good." "Now you can fuck her without worrying..." " or losing your license." " Or maybe now," "I can try to save our marriage or what's left of it," " which, apparently, isn't very much." " Did you say Monday?" "Monday?" "Monday, yes." "That's why you wouldn't go with Max... on a Monday?" "Because you didn't want to miss your session with this girl?" "Are you serious?" "Max..." "He's having a lot of problems at school, and, uh, there was this conference with his teachers... and Paul wanted to reschedule because..." "I knew something was wrong." "I knew it." "And all your speechifying, all your fucking sanctimony, walking around like the mortally wounded, and the whole time -- oh, Jesus." "Makes total sense now, doesn't it?" "A million little things." "When did this start?" " Wait -- how long has this been going on?" " How long has what been going on?" " I told you nothing happened." " I'll tell you when this started." "It started a year ago, didn't it?" "Am I right?" "Jesus -- what happened to us?" "What happened to us?" "What happened to you?" "What happened to you, Paul?" "Edward, he was, he was nothing." " Nothing?" " Can you say, it's nothing?" "Can you say, it's nothing with this..." " what, what's her name, what is her name?" " I can't tell you." "I'm not allowed to." "I wanna know, and you'd better tell me, Paul," " I am not fucking around." " Laura." "Laura." "Why don't you tell me, it's nothing with Laura?" "My God." "I made a mistake." "I made a..." "With someone I couldn't even be in..." " God damn you." " What, what do you want?" "Do you want me to say, it's nothing?" "Because -- it isn't nothing." "That's why we're here." "That's why I'm here." "Fuck you." "Paul, you can understand how she's feeling?" "She came here, wanting to leave her affair behind and work on your marriage, and... then... she finds out that you have feelings for another woman." "It's not the same thing, Gina." "Still..." "You, you, you've both been pulling away from the relationship." "Now, what's left is to fight over who's been hurt the most." "Why?" "Why is anyone cheating?" "Looking to someone else for a connection..." "How did the marriage end up feeling this empty?" "Okay, this is a first step." "We, we'll keep looking at these reactions and, what they mean... where they started." "As I said in the beginning, um, we, we should meet a few times, and, um, and then decide to go on with couples therapy or... or some other solution." "Okay." "Gina, I'd like to pay you for my sessions so far and for, for this one as well." "No, Paul, we don't have to do that now." "Um, five sessions, uh..." "How much, how much you " "Paul, as you said in the beginning, some lines have been blurred here." "So, I haven't even thought about this." "Now, let me figure it out and I'll send you a bill, okay?" "What exactly am I going home with?" "What, what the hell am I supposed to do with this before, uh... for our next installment?" "Kate, you, you can call me anytime." "Paul, you know that." "And if you wanna meet before next Friday, it's fine." "I'm here." "Thanks, Gina." "Take care."