"I would like to start by asking you what your name is." "In Europe, my name was Klaus Barbie." "Mr Barbie, did you take part in the Second World War?" "Yes, I took part in the Second World War." "Do you regret anything you have done in your life?" "Deep down... there have been errors but we all follow a line." "You mean you follow a line?" "I do." "Is it the same as when you were younger?" "No." "I'm referring to the line of character." "When the last war ended, our governments told us that fascism had been defeated and all war criminals would be punished for the crime." "But neither assertion turned out to be true." "Secretly, our rulers entered through hypocritical deals, they used fascists and war criminals to fight against the communism and ultimately to shape the world we live today." "The darkest corner of this dark enterprise was the use and protection of men whose experted simply hunting down and destroy of other human beings." "Klaus Barbie was one of these." "This is his clandestine story showing how with the help with Western powers transplanted his special skill and unwavering ideology from Europe to Latin America and dreamed of raising a swastika again over a Fourth Reich in the Andes." "I don't think Barbie was destined to be a monster as told he was a poor boy his father was a village school master for roughshod - autocratic and tried to walked through the pain of the war wound he suffered this by from big lack of self-esteem" "he wanted to matter pop up something to the secret to respect himself by" "he must sort of like million of others who were ready to be just over song by the Nazi movement" "his wished to be important came out when he registered the school bar he applied as a pity agent to spy on his school congress by the Nazi organization in 1933 already" "I think he's comparative of being cruel - brutal his desire to master and exploit of human beings he studied the technics for doing this" "I think this is kind of trade he learned" "I don't think he was more thesis morality than the people in his backgraound it was a Jewish population in Trier he would have learned a lot of Jews he would have learned a chef flied by Altman Rabbi out one maybe by the street" "that goes hmm many many years later when the Rabbi had been long dead in Auschwitwz puls Barbie stole his name it's his first alias straight from school, Barbie joined the SD, the political police of SS." "He training strained in interrogation methods and counter-version." "He was considered a fervent national socialist." "Once the war begun, he was first sent to Holland where he excelled in tracking down hiting Jews, and from there to the place his name will be forever linked to" "Lyon." "In 1942, Lyon was the hub of the French Resistance." "Barbie's task was to root them out, whatever it took." "How do you feel about being daughter of man he's described as butcher of Lyon we never came to know why he was called butcher right because they said he was a great torturer yes but who invented that?" "I tried to discover it these victims and by the way the butcher of Lyon was pretty upseted because it unhonorable profession" "He led section 4 of the Lyon SD, which specialized in political offences." "Therefore, he led the struggle against "terrorists", as they called the Resistance." "Recording of Klaus BARBIE I go to kill to Lyon." "I have been ordered to fight the Resistance and these orders have been very strict:" "To kill." "It was here, during long interrogation sessions, that Barbie's love of extreme violence first surfaced." "Barbie asked the same questions over and over." ""Which movement are you with?"" "How many of you are there?" "Who is your leader?" "I don't know." "At one interrogation, Barbie had a pair of pliers." "Each time he asked a question and I didn't reply, he'd break one of my teeth." "He made the hole of my hand it was the wound there he just fiddled that to hurt me and in the investigation procedure he would squeez my fractured shoulder hard hard, yes, to make me scream and then he would try to use hmm to hit me over the head" "not to break my scalp but just to numbed me, you know and I would say that was a treatment that I received for three months" "As soon as we arrived," "Barbie, a little man, jumped on my father and searched him." "My father remained calm." "He sat down and he put his children on his lap." "Barbie got angry and said, "If you don't tell us where Jo is, you'll be shot!"" "Then he pulled out a revolver." "What kind of man says a thing like that to a father holding his two children on his lap?" "You ask me what Barbie was like." "He was a savage." "A killer." "People would recover conscious and finding this guy setting over with holding horsewhip hiting his boot as classic of filming Nazi way" "He was described like that he's a running man" "He said to me, You're a dirty Jew." "Since you refuse to talk, you'll be sent to the salt mines." "And so my wife and I, with a few others, were sent to Drancy and deported in a convoy with perhaps a thousand others to Auschwitz." "People believe that ten thousand of Jews were executed under his order that against with the hope that many of them were French people" "Two episodes in particular would earn Barbie a place in French infamy forever." "The first was the arrest and the torture to death of Jean Moulin, leader of the Resistance." "Nobody knows for sure who betrayed Moulin but one man, René Hardy, is thought to cracked of Barbi's torture and led the Germans to his leader." "We wanted to prevent the Resistance from being taken over by the communists." "The Resistance and its command had been infiltrated." "All of Moulin's secretaries were Reds, more or less." "Mr Fuchs, you were Klaus Barbie's interpreter in Lyon for two years, between 1942 and 1944." "Did you witness any torture during that time?" "I saw a few people tortured." " By Klaus Barbie personally?" " Yes." "The Resistance fighter Moulin?" "Moulin, yes." "So you claim that it was Klaus Barbie who killed him." "Yes." " And you saw him do it?" " Yes, I did." "He dragged him by his feet down the stairs and into the basement." "And you saw that?" "I certainly did!" "Recording of Klaus BARBIE 1975" "He died not in my hands." "I gave him a test with hot water, the SS hot water bath, and I take him to Paris." "And many, many years after, in '64," "I have read that he has died on the way from Paris to Frankfurt." "After the war," "Moulin was transformed to a national hero with practically in every town or village in France have streets and squares named after him" "Le Jean Moulin was entered into this figure by de Gaulle" "Moulin was reburied in the pantheon in the 1960's when the de Gaulle was the president of the republic and you know another one of this great junction give French once more sence of their great memory of history of the importance of resistance" "Today, youth of France, may you think of this man as if bringing your hands close" "to his poor shapeless face on his last day, to his lips that had not spoken." "On that day, this was the face of France." "But the event that established Barbie's notoriety was the arrest and deportation of 44 Jewish children" "from an orphanage in Izieu, a small village near Lyon." "My sisters were sent to Izieu." "Monique was in a creche." "One year later, I bought a newspaper called Combat." "In that paper, I read an article saying that the children in Izieu... 44 children in Izieu had been exterminated." "Lawyer and Nazi hunter they against the German power but children were against nobody so Barbi was the only one who sent the Geheime to arrest the children" "General Lattre de Tassigny's troops are heading up the Rhône to enter Lyon." "According to some reports" "Barbie stayed in Lyon until the Allies entered the city, executing traitors and Jews." "Even the Berlin fell, with the German army in defeat, a small band of hard-line Nazis refused to accept that this was the end." "Among them was Barbie." "He adopted a series of false identities and went on the run, hoping that the fight for his ideology he believed incould be continued by other means." "At the way one can almost do anything wrong at that time it was chaos, confusion and corruption for example, in north of Germany there were gang of army of Russian English and American who would highjack train to ship from Italy" "when I was a reasonal commander inBremen I heard about Barbi because he has escaped the arrest by the CIC in Marburg" "so we were told behind to look up for him he was operating as "Claus Holbak"" "but he was identified by a socialite from the SS and he was arrested arresting officer put him in the jeep and draw after his office to interrogate he jumped out to the car nt pointed the gun and shot at him but only hit him the" "and he escaped he was helping to organize the underground SS organization very much as described by "Odessa File"" "he went on to the Hamgurg and he was captured there by the Birtish who said we are not the Americans you wouldn't get away from us he had two people with him they each put in the different cell" "and three day they have all escaped so he was the escape expert no question about it" "The good will between the Soviets and their allies didn't last for long." "With a few months, such scenes would become unthinkable as the Cold War tightened its grip." "This new climate of anticommunism gave Barbie and his associates the opportunity they wanted." "The Allies too the hear, the old adage my enemy's enemy is my friend." "And, in the bombed-out streets back of German defeated cities, they stop making contacts unrepentant Nazis and recruited them for their clandestine war against the communists." "There were never any shortage particular with US military of people who saw the communism has as a threat globalizaiton itself prior to the war some have seen so communism was more danger than the German Nazilism in favour along German... with Nazilism" "people who knew the most of German cimmunism was SS who had been corporating with them even before the World War II the use of Nazi was a key part of the US strategy of fighting the cold war it was not a over strategy" "and that I say one of the very troubleing part about it more then the moral issue so it was done secretly" "I had a man that I was working closely with "Kurt Marque"" "former capitan German army intelligence" "Marque told me pretty much who Barbi was he warned me about the propability he was on the list he warned me he was arrestable and left up with me why did you think it's worthy to take that risk" "US Counter-Intelligence Corps agent because of information he can apply" "Barbie impressed this agent as an honest man on all levels, wrote Taylor." ""Abosolutely without nerves or fear,"" "he is a staong anticommunist and a Nazi idealist." "Convinced that his beliefs were betrayed by the Nazis in power." "He trust in Nazilism all generals respected him as a hero he was idealist, he was tough and he was strong he knows the interrogate he could not do the same thing he did in France but he was still great at this" "I don't really think he's sadism he just did whatever he had to do he was very proud of his ability to interrogate people he knew how to do it he used whatever forces were necessary" "For almost four years, Barbie worked for US military intelligence." "He was well paid and housed in a villa." "His network of informers set stretched across Europe but he was valued for his information on the French communist party, information obtained by his wartime informers." "Many were in a position of power and liable to blackmail" "American knew that Barbi has been SS office in Lyon they did not know until later hmm ...two years later and he was wanted as war crime by the French bullshit and this is the fair describtion of that claim" "what was because Barbi's role in murder of the Jean Moulin had been front page news of the French newspaper for the previous two years the claim that the CIC is the institution most particular of CIC were not reading the French communism newspaperit's transplanted false claim" "in 1948, I was a special agent with CIC that's out intellgence core in occupying Germany that was a station in Augsburg and as I spoke fluent Germany" "I was assigned to handle the network of Germany formers" "Among them was Klaus Barbie." "And Klaus Barbie was later on that I discovered he was one of the murder by French and I reported this to my superior they told me to keep nice and quite he's still valuable when he's no longer valuable we turn him over to the French" "I thought I was gonna get the promotion when I told him about Barbi and he told me to keep quite that was a idea of ends the problem but that of course was Nazi's idea and totalitarian's idea" "secondly hmm... the idea was Nazi knew something about the Russians but wait a minute, who wanted the war how did you decide they own the experts when they were defeated by the Russians" "Barbie did not just work for US military intelligence, but also for this man, the mysterious Reinhard Gehlen, future head of the West German secret service, the BND." "Reinhard Gehlen was Chef of Germany military intelligence East front during World War II during the invasion of the US SR" "The Nazis forces captured hundreds of thousand of Soviet POW and they put them in his camp where they were starved until to death" "Gehlen's guys went to the camp to interrogate those prisoners if prisoners were cooperating maybe they got a littile bit of food if they didn't cooperate they starved to death something about the order of seven millions people died in this camp" "so Gehlen was scientist cruel and ferocious after the war, Gehlen was recruited by the US intelligent and mostly particularly by who eventually became the director of CIA we were able to identify at east one hundred war criminals who were a part of his network" "the other problem was the Nazi war criminals had the agenda the more them described the Russian threat the more you needed them because they were the core on core of experts" "he portraited what was going on in East Europe back to 1945 as tho the red army of 1945 still existed it was still persuing the same goal of wining over Germany eventually over French, over Italy and rest of Europe and there by congure the world" "one of these things led to was seriously dramatic conflict in 1948 and 1949 that eventually permanent breaking of any notion of US and Soviet cooperation" "Barbie's main mission for the Gehlen organization was to recruit former SS and SD men into his top secret paramilitary organization with the full knowledge of the allied powers." "I remembered him taking me to one particular spot which was uncovered and tagged out and there were firearms, grenade, all nicely packagd weapons and he said we have thousand of these all over the country and that sort of made me little suspecious that i reported this" "and they said "we know this"" "there were all work for us these used to prevent the communism to come accrose ove the iron curtain" "the stay-behind army was created after World War II was secret and anticommunism to power military information that we hit from democratic government" "Klaus Barbi was one of the organizer of the German stayed behind he was exmantal and recruiting of Nazis that was part of CIA operation" "and stay-behind armies were supposed theoretical prepared for Soviet invasion of West Europe however there was even more secret element to their function which was to prevent from left to come in for power electrically" "when you provided weapons Nazi war criminals is a very dangerous thing to do and that's what US government did" "how many?" "Who they were?" "What's happen to those weapons now?" "Are they still around?" "I don't know the answer to that so a lot of evidences came out for example, in Italy - in Greece - in Germany where the stayed behind armies were involved in disablelism and crashing the origanizations and unions" "carrying up the military, kind of shack action" "Attack in Milano 13 dead 78 injured" "Incredibly, Barbie's stay-behind armies operated until the early 1990s, involved in the bloodiest terrorist acts in post-war Europe." "Their strategy was to discredit and destabilize the Left." "But the degree to which the CIA condoned these attacks is hazy." "Back to 1948." "Barbie found his cosy existence suddenly disrupted." "The French were about to try René Hardy, Moulin's betrayer, and wanted Barbie as a star witness." "Strangely, they did not seem to want he to stand trial for himself in war crimes." "They knew the Barbi was working for the Americans and the Americans revealed that to the French the French wanted they to send him to Paris so we can testify and America said no that would you come to Stuttgart and you can talk to him there" "agent John Williams said that" "French agents were fearless at Barbi they even said you will never leave the room alive they aworded at him pound the table and shot the chairs and mde all kind of emotion in threat but he thought tather secure that he was in US custody" "he was not gonna be turned over to the France their questionss of him dealed entirely with the matter of there were never any interrogation of what Barbi himself had done and there were number of reasons of why the speculation was true" "the French never bothered to make up the offical application for Barbi they didn't make any efforts the assumption we made was that they didn't really want him they just going through emotions" "Barbi had recurited two senior French politicians those guys were famous after the World War II they were secretly Barbi's informer in the war so two of the serior people in French were betrayers and François PONCE" "PONCE was the French high commission in Germenay" "Germany was run by pool of LI commission so the French representer was Klaus Barbi's informer so all the request from the Klaus Barbi for that came up to high commission were quietly relouder" "But the Hardy trial led to public demands in France that Barbie, the Butcher of Lyon, be brought to trial." "For the first time, the French really push the Americans to hand him over." "He's the advisor of CIC and trained them and he got to know the CIC as well as in that unit in Augsburg that's why we locked in sending him beck to French what did you mean he trained tham?" "What did he train them in?" "Technics how to solve problem and hmm..." "how to get a things done he was a very clever man and he had a lot of experience in Frence" "Barbie's superiors did not believe the France accusations and decided to protect their man at all costs." "But the situation became untenable and the CIC decided the solution was to hide Barbie where French law would never find him." "The Ratline was founded by right-wing priests in the Vatican." "With the tacit approval of the papacy, they smuggled Catholic anticommunists out of post-war Europe." "Among the war criminals that they helped were the Auschwitz doctor," "Josef Mengele, and the organizer of the Final Solution, Adolf Eichmann." "The head of the operation was Father Dragonovic, a Croatian fascist priest who had excellent relations with US military intelligence and who, for a sizable fee, could dispose of awkward assets." "Dragonovic obtained Red Cross papers and visas for the Barbies, under the name of Altmann, and, in early 1951, they set sail from Genoa for a new life in Latin America." "Reportedly, Dragonovic's last words to Barbie were:" "If we need your help again, we'll be in touch." "He found the place of peace in the world the government was conserved at that time there were several ex-Nazis or Nazis conversant who lived there in Blivia there was a large Germany community" "One of the first things he saw here" "Bolivian journalist and author was a procession of Bolivian Falangists giving the Nazi salute." "As far as I know he even arrived here with the Jewish name," "Altmann has the German-Jewish sound to it as I understand he even dealed in business with other Jewish people who live here." "So he mingle with Jewish folks who ignore that he was one of those Nazis" "His first job was at Chulumani in the Yungas region." "A group of Jews had a farm there." "They hired him to be the manager." "There were two factors that Barbi was not happy about he's working for Jew and he's working with people he regards as inferior as Indians and by regarding to his friends in La Paz his behaviours were unpublicly and kept the political points by himself" "and teach the Indians to wash" "As soon as he had earned enough money, he managed to buy the farm." "Klaus Barbie's confident" "These people of Jewish origin just sold up and left." "In the second half of the 1950s, he felt his struggle wasn't yet over and decided to take Bolivian nationality." "He adopted a systematic strategy of befriending" "Bolivian military officials." "We became friends and we used to talk often because his house was close to my home in Copacabana in an almost deserted spot." "He lived there with his wife and his young son who was always with them." "He led a normal life." "Barbie began to involve himself directly with the armed forces, certain members at least, and to meddle in my country's politics." "After the month of turbulence after revolution matter and the bloody gun battle in plaza a military hunter has now taking over control Bolivian government officers behind me the strong man of the new hunter is the president the US trained air force general marian Barrientos" "This period marked the renewal of ties between the CIA and Klaus Barbie." "The contacts between..." "adventurer" " as far as I know, that is - between Barrientos and the US secret services were forged by Barbie during this period." "At this time, there was an ideological fight against extremism." "This was when Che Guevara launched his guerrilla war in Bolivia." "The bestiality of imperialism." "The bestiality of imperialism has no clear borders and belongs to no particular country." "Hitler's troops were beasts, just like the North Americans today, like the Belgian paratroopers are in the Congo, like the French imperialists were in Algeria." "Because it is the very nature of imperialism to turn men into beasts." "In 1966, Ernesto Che Guevara arrived in Bolivia." "He had been missing since 1965." "All around the world, CIA operatives were trying to track down Che Guevara." "He was the most wanted man in the world at the time." "How long have you been searching Che Guevara and how many countries have you been searching him for?" "Green Beret well we have different people in different countries, you know they are all in Latin America" "there were some network in Asia and countries close even though we have big number of people but we still can't succeed but I guess it's by luck right now" "He met with Major Shelton the commander of the unit from the US." "Altmann no doubt gave him advice on how to fight this guerrilla war." "He always boasted - though I cannot prove it - that it was he who devised the strategy for murdering Che Guevara." "He used the expertise gained doing this kind of work in WWII." "They made the most of the fact that he had this experience." "Altmann said once," ""This poor man wouldn't have survived at all"" "if he had fought in the Second World War." ""He was a pitiful adventurer,"" "nothing like his popular image." ""The people have turned him into a myth, a great figure."" "But what has he really achieved?" "Absolutely nothing."" "According to this CIA document, Barbie/AItmann also assisted General Barrientos in an assassination attempt aimed at Victor Paz Estenssoro, the previous Bolivian president, then living in exile in Peru." "Like many of Barbie's operations, this would involve an old Nazi crony called Friedrich Schwend." "Schwend was a notorious forger." "He was behind Hitler's plan to destroy the British economy by flooding Britain with false 5-pound notes." "So I knew the Carlos Altman Hans he was introduced as the German from Bolivia we were there for the New Year it's a long long table and Altman was sitting there" "Barrientos's sittng here and his wife was sitting there we were talking during the conversation, I just observe just the believer how the bustard Hitler actually betray at the very end of German youth" "Barbi suddent, I meant Barrientos suddently jumped up and shutted" ""don't against the leader in front of me"" "and I went up and said "HI Hitler" and laughing and I just noticed that Altman was not laughing and he made his hand to sign of sit down and be quiet and I think "oh, jesus, christ he actucally meant it!" "Barbie and Schwend were at the heart of a network of Nazis scattered throughout Latin America." "Unreconstructed fascists to a man, they dealt in weapons and information." "Among them were Hans-Ulrich Rudel, a famous Stuka plot and a protector of Josef Mengele, the Dutch Nazi Willem Sassen who workedwith Eichmann on his memoirs, and Walter Rauff, inventor of the mobile gas chamber and adviser to Augusto Pinochet." "All of them had attained positions of great influence within Latin America's numerous military dictatorships, selling their expertise in the field of repression." "Nazi ideology was transferred to Latin America, and its extremely brutal methods such as torture, assassination and disappearances were adopted." "Thousands disappeared." "At least some of them were working for an Austrian company, the Austrian state-owned arms company Steyr-Puch." "And, even if some deny it, they had close ties with the BND and the CIA." "Barbie's sprit of enterprise led to an incredible project:" "Persuading President Barrientos to found a Bolivian shipping line, even though Bolivia is a landlocked nation." "Bolivia had dreamt of ocean access since losing it in the mid 19th century." "Barbie exploited this patriotic feeling and thus set up Transmaritima Boliviana." "We have shipping to Hamburg, to Valparaiso, the United States, the Gulf, the Mexican Gulf, Houston..." "I have visited all these ports and..." "What's the name of your firm?" "Transmaritima Boliviana." "It was a business and I believe a lot of people made the lot of money there." "Because you use the Bolivian flags as other country use Liberia flags so you will have the ships go over the world with the Bolivian flags you could do whatever you wanted and it's the great cover of a lof activites including gunrunning" "An official company delegation went to France." "Being company president, Klaus went along as head of it." "During one of the meetings, he thought, "My God, I'm in Paris." "Here I am in France." "I have to visit the Pantheon." "He bought a bunch of flowers, beautiful, expensive flowers, and he went to the Pantheon." "He placed the flowers on Jean Moulin's tomb and stood there for a moment thinking about the past." "He stayed there a while." "He said he felt sad." "He wasn't putting it on." "But it was Barbie's work for Transmaritima and, in particular, this boardroom photo that led indirectly to his identification by the famous Nazi hunters, Serge and Beate Klarsfeld." "Ya we have this photo of the close committeemen of the council of the Transmaritima we showed that to the several people and and we bought the photos to the French police you know in order to see if that man is that man" "so they made the exmination and they told us that the man in 1970 is the man in 1943" "He called me and said, "I'm Serge Klarsfeld." "I'd like to know if the names Mina and Claudine mean anything to you."" "Yes, they were my sisters." "He told me, "We need to meet because Barbie," ""the man responsible for the arrests at the house in Izieu,"" "is still alive and his case is closed." "We can reopen the case but we need witnesses." "They asked the French government to extraditionhim from Bolivia for examaudition" "Nazi hunter and I found another Nazi mother whose children also had been departed from the same sheep home said that two girls departed" "She asked other people who had been directly involved or who had had contact with Barbie but none of them wanted to travel all that way." "But my mother, showed no hesitation and said," ""If we have to go..." She was 68 at the time and she left for Bolivia with Beate on February 20th, 1972." "She was never feeling over for the hatred just hope justice to be done you know she could stand the fact that he was living in Labas free and all for her life was broken" "This was unexpected." "Barbie never thought it could happen." "We talked about it." "He said, "It's barbaric, she's German!" ""Still, she was a child during WWII." "She doesn't know what went on." "She doesn't know the facts and circumstances that led to war." "For almost three weeks, it was front-page news in Bolivia." "On the last day, to show how angry they were at not having seen Barbie, they chained themselves to a bench outside his office." "They came back because they were deported." "Mrs Halaunbrenner, this was your first flight?" "Yes, and I'm very disappointed." "It's a long trip for a 68-year-old." "The government there supports Barbie." "I went there to obtain justice." "We were the only TV station that followed Beate Klarsfeld there." "She was deported but we stayed on after another week, we got an interview with Klaus Altmann at the Interior Ministry." "I'm now showing photos of Barbie that were taken during the war." "I'll ask Mr Altmann if he recognizes them." "Have you seen these photos?" "Yes, I have seen them often in the papers." "I have seen others too but I don't see any resemblance." "I see a young man but I don't see any resemblance." "I see a slight resemblance." "Possibly." "I'm now showing Klaus Altmann a photo of Jean Moulin to see if he recognizes him." "No, I haven't..." "I saw this in Paris Match." "I saw this photo once in that magazine." "At one point, even though we hadn't spoken in French," "I asked, "So you've never been to Lyon?"" "You've never been to Lyon?" "A man who doesn't speak French would never have understood." "You've never been to Lyon?" "I have never been to Lyon." "I have been to other places..." "Marseille..." "Toulon..." "The evidence against him was so strong, he admitted that he was Klaus Barbie." "Banzer's government detained him for a few days." "They consulted the Supreme Court about what to do with him." "When I was chief of security for Banzer," "Klaus Barbie's wife came to see me at the presidential palace because Klaus was in San Pedro prison and she wanted to get him released." "Banzer asked me to go with her to see if her husband was all right." "So I went to see him in prison." "At the time, we had political problems:" "Demonstrations, murders..." "I asked him, "How are you doing in here?"" "He said, "Why are you worried?"" "Those were his words." ""Don't worry about two or three deaths." "That's nothing compared to what I've done."" "At the time, there wasn't any kind of democratic system in our country." "Judges were appointed by the president, as in a dictatorship." "The Supreme Court discharged him of all responsibility, of all culpability." "He was released without being troubled." "Moreover, he was legally Klaus Altmann, not Klaus Barbie." "Various political prisoners" "saw him frequenting government offices, the prison, the centres of repression, etc." "He's a entrepreneur of terrorism he's a entrepreneur of anti-communism form of what was called anti-communism violence you need to understand that anti-communism violence for most part particular in South America was not directed that to comminists it was directed that school teachers it was directed that labour officials" "and some left members' point of view that was the communist in the Barbe's world" "My political experience was in workers' rights rather than in actual politics." "Union leader." "Then came Banzer's coup in 1971." "At the people's assembly, they turned up and arrested everyone who was there." "They took me to the Interior Ministry and left me there for 48 hours, on ice." "It was more or less midnight when I heard a loud noise at the dormitory door." "The door flew open and I saw the silhouette of a man with a machine gun who told me, "Get up!"" "We got into the van that was waiting outside." "And there, waiting in another vehicle, was Benavides." "Former chief of police currently in jail" "I was there for the arrival of every political prisoner:" "The ELN, communists, extremists, right-wingers..." "And that was when they started hitting me." "They pulled me up by my hair and they must have hit me a thousand times." "Afterwards, my face was completely deformed." "You couldn't see my nose, my eyes..." "Nothing." "They kept kicking me in the spine." "My back still hurts." "What kind of torture techniques did they use?" "Electric cattle prods, clubs, the "submarine" where they put them in a tub of water." "Those kind of things." "All the agents vanished and I was left on my own." "There was no one else." "And when they came back, they were saying," "How did he tell you we should hit her?" "And who was there?" "It was Barbie." "The best adviser the army ever had was Klaus." "That's for sure." "You will find a lot of books that say he personally interrogated people." "But it's absolutely not true." "I think that's him." "I think he's the one who made me sit on ice." "And when they took me out of there, this man said to me," "If you get involved again, you will die." "He tried to give examples" "by referring to the past." "This is what we'd do in the war." "That is why the agents adopted these different methods." "This is the way to do things to get this country on its feet." "I tried to find Klaus Barbi" "I was working as the freelance of the New York Times after several hours of showing his photos around we were able to locate his house the picture was this house there" "so we knocked systemly to the door and I saw Barbi was on the window over there and we shut and hoping he would open the door to talk to him and about 15 or 20 minutes later a van showed up and the van parked right over there" "and it was a large van, about 6 well-armed militaries showed up with machine guns and very aggressively told us to get into the van and obviously we were very very concerned and we were taken to the 7th division of Cochabamba" "that was the area controlled under general VISTOSO who later on will become the president of Bolivia and we were interrogated for couple of hours and their big concern of interrogate was how did we find out where Klaus Barbi live" "during the interrogation, they said if we didn't tell them who's our sources they will pull our finger nails out they were pretty aggressive" "Barbie's neighbour He was my declared enemy." "He thought I was a Jew, he was always getting in my way, he threatened to make me disappear." "I swear he did." "I had a lot of problems with Klaus." "A lot?" "A lot." "Violent ones?" "Very violent ones." "Once, in a football stadium, he tried to have me arrested on the spot." "Things like that, using his influence." "In later years, we got on better because he realized I wasn't a Jew, just a Bolivian." "When he found that out, he apologized for his behaviour towards me in the past and offered me his friendship." "From that point on, he was friendly and polite." "Our relationship from then on was perfectly cordial." "As the seventies progressed, Barbie became more politically active." "As his business card shows, he chaired the Bolivian branch of WUNS, the World Union of National Socialists." "New Nazis from around the world came to him for advice and training." "When Bolivia had a brief period of democracy in the late 1970s," "Barbie and a group of right-wing officers, gathered around General Luis Arce Gomez, decided to stage another coup." "The coup would be financed by Bolivia's richest man, the cocaine baron, Roberto Suarez." "The plan was to establish a true national-socialist regime, a Fourth Reich in the Andes, with Barbie as its ideological leader." "Barbie was secretly given the rank of lieutenant-colonel and set about using his far-right contacts in Europe to recruit "advisers" and paramilitaries for the coup." "They tried to establish a system of control, not only of the people but also of the armed forces." "He looked for National Socialists, National Socialist ideologues, to form a paramilitary unit for the coup." "Barbie didn't want to let the Bolivians lead the coup." "He thought it would be chaotic, and the results unpredictable." "That's why the coup was organized internationally." "There was a group of supposed paramilitary members." "Bolivian lawyer Supposed because they had close ties with the government that qualified them as paramilitary." "They called themselves "The Fiancés of Death"." "Some time before the coup," "I had authorization to carry weapons." "This is my gun licence." "This is my agent ID, from the Bolivian Republic Intelligence Service." "Joaquin Fiebelkorn, special agent." "They got together in a house located a short distance from the city centre where they invited friends" " I was invited once - to show them an exhibition space filled with standards, flags, insignia, emblems, eagle decorations..." "That was my private hobby, collecting those things." "There were rooms decorated like that just like a Nazi museum." "Barbie was with them all the time." "They were friends, part of a team." "The intelligence and support team for Arce Gomez." "They seemed to be very well-trained men, experts in terrorism intelligence and torture techniques." "The Americans knew the coup was coming on July 17th." "Here we are coming out of the Interior Ministry." "We had just received instructions on what we had to do." "The Americans wanted to create a very strong anti-communist axis from Bolivia to Chile." "The Americans most certainly did not share the Barbie group's idea of founding a National Socialist state." "But they accepted it." "Barbie also arranged a deal for tanks with Steyr-Puch, tanks for the Bolivian army." "The last order, if I remember rightly, was for some 18 tanks that were ordered from Austria at the time." "Not even Chile had such good tanks as Bolivia!" "Union organizers, political militants, activists and subversives must leave the country." "The Americans thought that the new military government would get the drug trade under control." "Instead, they themselves took control of it." "They simply carried on acting like the drug barons before them." "The minister of cocaine as the central figure in the most territory of cocaine operation in the world in Bolivia so as the 80% of the cocaine under this earth it's impossible to pen point exactly how much moneyhe and his country made from the drug trade" "the best guess is around a billions dollar a year" "I think Arce Gomez." "Got some real problem 90 of his big lead of transporting cocaine certainly to the United States what you saying is that the government worked together in cocaine smuggleing game" "we can not be involved in the drug trafficing business for one reason we are upright people that's why we can speak with clear and strong voice on this point we hold the truth in our hands" "All they did was replace them." "But this Fourth Reich in the Andes was short-lived." "As the cocaine traffic exploded, the Americans withdrew support." "In 18 months, the regime collapsed replaced by a democratic government." "The paramilitaries and foreign advisers fled the country." "Only Barbie had nowhere to go." "Or had he lost the will to run?" "In the space of one year, two personal tragedies struck him:" "The death of his son in hang-gliding, followed by the death of his wife from cancer" "he didn't really have sercuites you know work as bodyguard" "Ernesto Che Guevara was his very good friend he advised him on several of deals he wasn't there with bodyguards he really did walk on the street freely if somebody really want to run after him they knew where to find him" "Klaus Barbi known as the butcher of Lyon was seized at the downtown of Lepastier where he's been living since 1957" "The new left-wing government decided it was time to neutralize Barbie once and for all." "And he was once again imprisoned in San Pedro jail." "This is barbaric." "I have no ties at all, neither physically nor politically, with the paramilitary groups." "In the 30 years that I have lived here, 31 years now, in fact," "I have always vowed not to get involved in Bolivian politics." "The German ambassador refused to come for him." "So I called the French ambassador who needed to consult his superiors." "Then I had to call Debray and ask him to speak to President Mitterrand." "I described the situation." "I was going to release him and kick him out of Bolivia." "I wanted him to go to France." "He told me he needed time so I said, "You have an hour."" "Mitterrand comes to power." "Who does he pick as his adviser at the Elysée?" "Régis Debray." "And Régis Debray had promised that Klaus Barbie wouldn't stay in Bolivia." "He and Serge Klarsfeld put together..." " not the extradition since it wasn't an extradition - but the "acquisition" of Klaus Barbie who was handed over in return for a few favours and perhaps, for a few weapons as well." "I was afraid the army would come and try to rescue him." "Thank God, they didn't." "Had they attempted to free him, we would have killed him." "There were six of us on a cargo plane without a single seat." "When we took off, the thing that worried Barbie..." "He didn't know he was going to France..." "He thought he was going to Germany..." "So he did his best to look calm, telling himself," "At last, I'm going home." "Nothing will happen to me." "He asked me, "What does a razor cost in Germany because they didn't let me bring anything." "He wanted me to confirm he was going to Germany." "Perhaps he had doubts but he adopted this rather superior attitude." "Finally, he landed in French Guyana, on French territory." "And the surprising thing was that the pilots of the Bolivian C130 refused to open the doors for the prosecutor and the prefect who were there unless they gave them money." "When we got to Cayenne, the pilots adopted a strange attitude and turned off all the lights, plunging us into darkness." "It was a Sunday and the French authorities managed to find some dollars somewhere." "And it wasn't a small amount." "They passed the money to the pilots through the window and only then did they agree" "When the doors were opened, the first thing we heard were voices speaking French." "At that moment, Barbie probably realized he was on French territory." "Barbie was taken to a hangar in the airport where a judge read the charges to him." "Barbie's reaction on hearing the charges was one of shock." "He had tears in his eyes." "As the sun was rising, we transferred to a French plane." "We were struck by the way his attitude changed in this new situation." "Klaus Barbie was becoming totally demoralized" "Klaus Barbie..." "We are on the second half of this one-way trip for him." "We shall now try to interview him again." "Are you aware of the charges against you in France?" "No." "They read them out to me but there are so many charges, I can't go over them right now." "Do you think France, Europe and the rest of the world should forget these crimes?" "Absolutely." "There have been so many crimes lately." "There have been more than 100 wars since WWII." "All these recent crimes are known to the general public." "But you know that European countries and, in particular France, haven't forgotten?" "Well, I've forgotten." "If they haven't, that's another issue." "That time I was a Minister of Justice" "Robert Badinter, minister of Justice 1981 - 1986" "I remembered calling up to the director of the prison ministration tell him to release Barbi into Lyon" "because during the war that's where he tortured victims" "How do you feel about Barbie's return to France?" "I feel a sense of relief." "I could almost say I'm happy." "How would you like Klaus Barbie to be punished?" "I'd like to see him shot or strung up, but that isn't possible in France, so I hope he's put away for life." "In an extraordinary twist, the man who defended Barbie was a Maoist communist of Vietnamese origin, Jacques Verges." "An iconoclastic and controversial figure," "Verges delighted in demolishing his opponent's complacent attitudes." "He skilfully argued that the trial, like so much of Barbie's life since the war was a quagmire of hypocrisy moral ambiguity and opportunism on the part of the French and their allies." "This trial was organized by Mr Mitterrand." "Mr Mitterrand was a civil servant under Pétain." "Mr Mitterrand was close to the former "cagoulards", extreme right-wing conspirators." "One of them sponsored him to receive Vichy's Francisque medal." "One can see why Mr Mitterrand would need this trial to clear his name." "As 800 journalists from 27 countries advance on Lyon, the growing tension is worrying the authorities, who may call in reinforcements." "I think that the Barbie trial shouldn't be taking place, simply because he was a man obeying his superiors during war time." "What is a crime against humanity for you?" "For me, there's no such thing." "Crimes against humanity don't exist?" "So how do you describe the deportation of the Jews?" "I told him, "I don't think you're innocent." ""Nor that you're the monster people say you are." "You are a tragic figure of our times." "You are no better or worse than an American officer in Vietnam," "You're no different from a Russian officer in Kabul or certain French officers in Algeria."" "Barbie had my legs burned, sir." "Do you understand?" "Why did he have my legs burned?" "Why did he deport me?" "How many times did he torture me?" "How many times?" "He's the one who slapped my face twice." "He's the one who interrogated me." "He's the one who sent me to the camps." "Barbie always said that he only dealt with members of the Resistance and the Maquis." "In other words, the enemies of the German army." "I ask you..." "The children!" "The 44 children!" "What were they?" "Were they in the Resistance?" "Were they in the Maquis?" "What were they?" "They were innocents!" "Like any other French person living in France, we know that the fate of the Jewish children was in fact a matter that interested the French political authorities." "Because, and you know this, members of the jury, the proposal to deport Jewish children was a French proposal." "I saw a head emerge from the line." "I realized that it was my father." "We waved to each other." "A German asked, "Is that your father?"" "I said, "Yes."" "He told me to go and kiss him." "He signalled to my father to come over." "Just as he was about to hug me... they forced him to his knees and shot him in the head." "Barbie didn't shoot him in the head but Barbie sent us there." "He's a man..." "How can he still be alive?" "Still alive!" "A man like him!" "French tribunal, do not forget that Klaus Barbie, in his dismal task, that of an occupying army, had legality on his side." "He had French legality on his side!" "In the name of humanity, in the name of the law, acquit Klaus Barbie immediately!" "He is just the convenient scapegoat for a vengeful battalion that isn't the army of the victims, that poor, faceless, nameless army that, to this day, continues to be recruited without respite." "In a few moments, the court and jury will retire to deliberate." "I therefore ask you this question:" "Do you have anything to say in your defence?" "Yes, Your Honour, a few words in French." "I was not responsible for the raid at Izieu." "I never had the power to decide who was sent to the camps." "I fought the Resistance, that I respect, harshly but it was war," "and the war is over." "Thank you." "Please sit down." "The proceedings are over." "Will the accused please stand?" "The court and jury have ruled as follows..." "I don't think my father was a butcher he's a very nice and sweet father very tender" "and for me all of those accusations and defamations are still the war consequences maybe I'm feeling knocking the war again for us the war hasn't finished" "The court and jury sentence Klaus Barbie, by a majority decision, to life imprisonment." "This hearing is now over." "This hearing..." "Silence, please." "Silence, please." "A little dignity, please." "looking at Iraq as a good example or you can look at Afghanistan and how defeat the Russians we used the extremely radicalization Islamic group we never willing to use people who just simply democracy" "at the end of justify of the means, they were willing to use the Nazi war crimials and willing to draw the line ever" "I observe that Lieutenant Barbie has been sentenced to life imprisonment while in Nuremburg" "Admiral Dönitz, Hitler's successor, and Baldur von Schirach, Governor of Austria, did not receive life sentences." "Clearly we surpass our masters in this field." "States the government do hire people to do horrible things torture to interrogate, sometimes even murder and they have indenture so they can be denied or defecated" "I didn't fell pittyful for Barbi but I found discuss of the established world the world of stated government" "Barbi wasn't fair to say you all needed me and now I'm in this court alone as a hidden world policy there and I felt that"