"This programme contains some strong language and scenes which some viewers may find disturbing." "My name is Robb Leech, and I'm a film-maker." "Four years ago, I made a documentary about my stepbrother, Rich." "We grew up together in a seaside town in Dorset." "Two white boys from a middle-class family." "But in 2009, he converted to an extreme brand of Islam." "You foolish people risk your life for these degenerate rulers, these people that conspire to misguide you into the hellfire." "I found him living in a strange new world, and he changed his name from Rich to Salahuddin." "What's your name?" "Salahuddin." "Salahuddin." "There were loads of guys doing outrageous things like burning the American flag on the anniversary of 9/11." "Burn, burn, USA!" "Burn, burn, USA!" "And there was one particular guy they all looked up to called Anjem Choudary, who was always on the TV." "You seem not, if I'm right, to like Britain very much, and..." "Everyone talked about fighting jihad and implementing an Islamic state." "When we establish Sharia, we will expand the borders and take the fight to the enemy, rather than them occupying our land." "The shoe will be on the other foot, Insha'Allah." "But he was no ordinary Muslim." "My step-brother had become a radical Islamist." "And four years on, he's now in prison, a convicted terrorist." "Rich and I grew up in the seaside town of Weymouth." "My dad and his mum married in 1992." "I always looked up to him as an older brother." "But by our mid-twenties, we'd grown apart." "When in 2009, I read he had been converted by Anjem Choudary, a man the papers call a hate preacher," "I decided to make a film in an attempt to reconnect with him." "There's no bombs in your bags?" "No, Insha'Allah, unless the kuffar have planted one there in order to try and put me inside, I don't know, but as far as I know there's nothing there, Insha'Allah." "So if I hear ticking, it's just..." "Well, maybe an alarm clock or something." "After a year of hanging out, and filming, I was saying goodbye to Rich as he prepared to fly out for his first Hajj." "But his views were still hard to accept." "While I'm gone, the brothers are going to be doing a demonstration." "I think it's called "British soldiers will burn in hell", or something like that." "'All of my pent-up feelings escaped in a frustrated outburst'." "You tell me to my face that I'm a filthy kafir." "I've never said that to you." "You won't even touch me unless you use your "dirty" hand." "I've called you a filthy kafir, Robb." "I don't shake your hand, because Islamically, the sunnah is to shake with the left hand." "That is the sunnah." "But it's permissible to shake with the right hand." "You know, there's a reason and a wisdom behind that, and, er, I thought you understood that, and it's nothing personal." "You treat everyone who is not an Islamist as sub-human, by the way you talk." "That's not the case." "The people I've met, the lectures I've gone to." "It's clear to see that's the way it is." "I don't think that's the case." "'It wasn't how I wanted to say goodbye." "'When he returned, I was touched by his wish to apologise.'" "Certainly, if a non-Muslim comes to you, and they're open-minded and interested in finding out about Islam, then we shouldn't make them have those kind of feelings that you've described of inferiority or whatever else it is," "because that's not an inclining atmosphere to be in, so if that is how you felt, then obviously" "I apologise on my behalf, and I'm sure the brothers don't mind either." "'He seemed to have done some soul-searching, 'and was trying to get things back on track'." "More importantly, I think is the fact that I need to engage more with my own family." "I need to make more effort to try and show them the good sides of Islam, the things that they might like." "So what happened next was a complete shock." "REPORTER:" "Richard Dart, a white Muslim convert from a Dorset seaside town, was jailed today for six years." "# I hurt myself today... #" "Dart was heard saying that things had to be done." "These were serious individuals." "They talked about how to make explosives using home-made chemicals, and their intent was to commit terrorist attacks overseas." "# What have I become?" "#" "Today is 25th April, 2013, and Rich has just been sentenced to six years in prison for preparing to commit acts of terror." "The really poignant thing for me is the idea that two weeks before he was arrested," "I was sitting in a coffee shop with him in Ealing." "And in retrospect, now," "I know that he was planning on going to Pakistan and not necessarily intending on coming back." "The court heard his plans to go to Pakistan, near the Afghan border, to seek terror training with the Taliban." "I'm shocked." "Partly, I'm angry because Richard has ended up doing what he's done and having the extreme beliefs that he has." "And part of me is quite angry about that, but I don't really know..." "I don't really know who to blame for that." "I want to figure out what's happening, what is going on." "How is it allowed to happen?" "How can it happen?" "What is it people are drawn to?" "And what can be done, potentially, to stop it from happening?" "Now that he's been sentenced, I want to speak to him." "Part of me just wants to say hi, and, um, have a laugh with him, because we always had a laugh." "And the other half wants to ask him." ""How could you think that you were doing the right thing?"" "A few weeks later, something else made me even more determined." "What happened yesterday in Woolwich has sickened us all." "On our televisions last night, and in our newspapers this morning, we have all seen images that are deeply shocking." "I apologise that women had to witness this today." "But in our lands, our women have to see the same." "You people will never be safe." "Remove your government, they don't care about you." "Like Rich, Michael Adebolajo was a regular at protests, organised by Anjem Choudary." "I'd be surprised if he and Rich didn't know each other." "Several of Rich's Islamist brothers have since ended up behind bars." "Often in the wings was Choudary, now dubbed by many papers as the most hated man in Britain." "All of you are in one camp, the camp of non-Islam." "If I'm judged an apostate by a sharia judge, would I be executed in your caliphate?" "You know that you have left the deen of Islam because..." "Anjem was master of ceremonies at Rich's conversion, as well as being a leader of Al-Muhajiroun, the now banned radical Islamist group he had embraced." "The people that I study with and myself, we have a different belief in a sense to what many other Muslims seem to believe." "You're jihadists?" "Yeah, absolutely, I support the concept of jihad as part of being a Muslim." "It's very important that sharia is implemented and I support it wholeheartedly." "To his followers, Anjem is a father figure, a charismatic preacher and mentor responsible for helping to shape the values and beliefs of those who look up to him." "He talks a good talk." "I'm not saying he intends it, but some of those who listen end up behind bars." "Anjem has always kept himself out of trouble." "Will you apologise?" "Radicalisation is calling for the sharia nowadays." "Radicalisation is exposing the British government, radicalisation is commanding good and forbidding evil." "We say, and we've always said, that we live here under a covenant of security." "It's not allowed to target innocent people, in return for our life and wealth being secure and we've said that over the years..." "He also believes in this thing called a covenant of security, which forbids attacking the country he's living in, if it isn't openly attacking him." "I'm keen to revisit some of the people and places I came across in my first film." "First up is an old acquaintance, convert Abdullah Deen." "HE CHANTS" "I first met Abdullah at another protest, four years ago, when he was a relatively new convert." "What brought me to Islam was that my sister died of a cocaine overdose, in this society, at the age of 18." "And I say that if this society is prepared to look after the youngsters, then you have to look after these people in this society and not introduce them to that lifestyle." "An active supporter at Islamist protests," "Abdullah Deen also had his own perfume range." "This is the business side of Abdullah Deen." "This is your trade?" "Yes, I have a wife to look after." "We got to know each other through Rich and to my surprise, I found I really quite liked him." "See you later." "Hopefully," "Allah will guide you and open your heart, Insha'Allah." "But it's nice to see you again, as always, man." "It's been a few years since we last hung out." "But I want to find out what he thinks about Rich." "Good." "I'm at an Islamist protest outside the Iranian embassy." "It's been a while since I've seen so many beards and burkas." "I'm feeling quite nostalgic." "Iranian government, go to hell!" "Iranian government, go to hell!" "But no time for reminiscing " "I'm keen to speak to Abdullah, and he's quick to defend Rich." "What is apparent is that there's no evidence to say that he had any plan in place, no evidence to say any plan was being executed, or even near to being executed, you know." "Me, myself, I've never fought, but to the West, I'd probably be considered a terrorist." "Not because of my fighting or blowing myself up, but just the idea that I carry that only Allah's law has the right to be on earth." "And the Muslims have the right to defend themselves against the foreign occupation from the West." "I believe it's another way to try and stop the call of Islam, to stop the establishment of an Islamic state on the Earth." "'It's not surprising to me 'that Abdullah Deen thinks Rich is innocent." "'But I can't argue with the fact that he pleaded guilty." "'I'd seen him just weeks before his arrest, 'and we'd talked about the future, and his plans to start a business." "'It was no more than a cover story." "'I can't get my head around the fact that he must have known 'it might have been the last time we ever met." "'I really felt like we'd come a long way 'and that things were on the mend." "'I'm angry, but it's hard to make sense of things 'through a wall of silence." "'I hope I can visit him in prison.'" "I don't want to speak to pundits or politicians." "I feel like I've heard it all before, and we're still in this mess." "I want some fresh perspectives." "Hello." "Lewis, how are you doing?" "Very well." "Good to meet you." "How are you doing, Robb?" "Not bad." "Come on in." "'After seeing my first film and hearing about Rich's conviction," "'PhD student Lewis Herrington 'has invited me over for an intelligence debrief.'" "This is literally where I do all my work." "'He certainly takes his research seriously." "'I feel like I'm in an episode of CSI.'" "Islamic fundamentalism is essentially an ideology, separate in a sense from Islam itself." "In trying to understand what I refer to as the UK Islamist movement," "I've separated people who are involved in this." "You know, I can readily identify preachers, fundraisers, jihadists, facilitators, and terrorists." "Can I just ask?" "Mmm." "You have Richard as a jihadist, not a terrorist." "Yeah, this is a really fundamental distinction between terrorists, and, um, jihadists, because a great number of young British Muslim lads are very empathic about what's going on in various different conflicts all over the world." "They hear stories given to them by Anjem Choudary about Indian troops, you know, raping and killing Muslims in Kashmir." "And they want to sign up, they want to go out there and pro-actively defend fellow Muslims." "They're not about to go and blow themselves up on the London Underground." "That's not... that's not what they're thinking." "Men like your brother, Richard Dart, from the available evidence, you know, wanted to go out, train as a Mujahideen, and fight predominantly in Afghanistan." "'So in Lewis' mind, Rich isn't really a terrorist at all - 'he wasn't planning on killing innocent civilians." "'He wanted to go to Pakistan to fight on the battlefield 'in what he believes to be a just war.'" "Next up, a video of another white convert who travelled all the way to Syria." "ON VIDEO: '..helicopter shot down.'" "There you go, there's quite a similarity." "White Muslim revert." "These guys are over in Syria." "They look like they're having a brilliant time." "Having a whale of a time!" "He's having the time of his life." "This is fantastic." "You know, because if you are a fundamentalist Muslim, your day involves praying, you know, five times a day." "There's no drinking, no smoking, no nightclubs." "It tends to be spending a lot of time in the coffee shop and talking about jihad, talking about all these guys that are overseas, fighting for their Muslim brothers." "How fantastically exciting a prospect that must be." "I think that's ultimately where your brother wanted to go." "'I can see the allure of foreign adventures with brothers-in-arms." "'For someone with not much going on, it must be quite intoxicating.'" "That's what your brother wanted." "To be that guy, I think." "'Before I leave, I want to know what Lewis thinks about Anjem Choudary.'" "I think whenever you read his tweets and all his stuff, he deliberately tries to be as provocative as possible." "I wouldn't be surprised if he was in Big Brother." "I could literally just see that." "Next year, Celebrity Big Brother, we've got Anjem Choudary." "Drink and fornication aren't really Anjem's thing." "But he does specialise in his own form of reality TV." "For example, here is the actual moment he converted my stepbrother, recorded and broadcast to the world via YouTube." "It's the last time I saw Rich, kafir-clad and without a beard." "As a white convert, Rich was quite a catch, and Anjem made sure he got pride of place during media excursions." "REPORTER:" "Choudary wants to establish an Islamic state in Britain." "These men study under Choudary at the London School of Sharia." "Salahuddin, formerly known as Richard, has been a Muslim for just five weeks." "Choudary provided him with a certificate of conversion." "Rich was no longer Rich." "He was Salahuddin." "If Salahuddin decides he no longer wishes to part of the faith, the penalty under full sharia law is death." "Anjem's love of the media spotlight means he's really not that hard to get hold of." "But I should have known we wouldn't be meeting in Starbucks." "# Just a perfect day... #" "He requests that I book a conference room at a favourite travel hotel in Chingford." "# And then later, when it gets dark, we go home.... #" "KNOCK AT DOOR" "Hello, Robb." "Hello." "How's it going?" "Not bad." "You've got the water out already." "Yeah." "I was going to have a latte, or a coffee." "The coffee comes with the room, doesn't it?" "Yeah, yeah." "Help yourself." "Yes, Robb, so you want to become a Muslim?" "Um..." "I need some more time." "What if you don't have any time?" "What if you get run over by a bus when you leave the Holiday Express, and end up in the hellfire?" "Then so be it." "Famous last words, eh?" "'It's a good start." "'I want to ask Anjem what he knows 'about Rich's plans to seek terror training in Pakistan.'" "Actually, I can't remember the last time that I saw him." "Er, possibly around 2011, maybe 2012, um..." "Brother Salahuddin began, um, keeping himself more to himself, over the last couple of years." "And obviously, I think he was arrested in, er, sometime in 2011, in July, was it?" "Or was it 2012?" "I can't remember." "What's your take on that?" "If Brother Salahuddin was in fact going to Afghanistan to stand with his fellow Muslims to defend them from attack, by, you know, outsiders, be they Americans or British, then it's not something that is unusual." "When you talk about Islam," "I have to say that most of the Muslims I meet, they point the finger at you and say you're responsible for brainwashing people like Richard." "Well, you know, if brains need to be washed, then surely it's a good thing?" "They're washed of the corruption and false ideas." "I think we all need our thoughts washed from time to time." "'Rich indeed moved away from East London 'about a year before his arrest." "'But I sense Anjem is using the opportunity 'to get his message across." "'And wow - what a message.'" "What's a true democracy?" "Maybe Germany under Hitler was a true democracy." "No, that was a dictatorship." "Oh, and Britain is not a dictatorship?" "It's not a dictatorship, and it's not..." "It's not Nazi Germany." "It's as bad in many respects." "It's not as bad." "I mean, talk to the average Muslim about how he's stopped at the airport under the Terrorism Act..." "I speak to a lot of Muslims, and I understand it can be..." "I know it's difficult." "..Rummaging through your underwear, and all your personal belongings." "I'm not saying it's right." "That's as bad as Nazi Germany." "You might as well be in a Nazi Germany concentration camp, when you come to Gatwick or Heathrow Airport, the way that they treat you." "Like second-class citizens." "Gatwick is nothing like Auschwitz." "Well, you know, I mean, there's a lot of fabrication about what happened to people in Germany and, er, Austria." "But the point is that Muslims are treated as if they're living in an apartheid state in Britain today." "'Is this Holocaust denial?" "I'm not sure." "But I'm completely astonished." "'I accept that Anjem had no role in Rich's plans or terror training." "'But he undoubtedly played a pivotal part 'in developing Rich's extremist convictions.'" "It's been a pleasure." "Thanks." "Look forward to the day when you become a Muslim." "Yeah, OK." "Don't hold your breath." "'As enigmatic as ever, he leaves me a little note." "'But which one of us is talking rubbish?" "'In our post-interview photo shoot, I appeal to Anjem's playful nature 'and offer to pose arm wrestling." "'He seems intrigued by the prospect, and tells me he would beat me." "'I tell him that it would be highly unlikely, 'and ask him to put his money where his mouth is." "'On this occasion, he is unwilling to take up the challenge." "'However, he suggests it may be possible 'at some point in the future." "'I tell him I'll hold him to it." "'I can't make my mind up about Anjem." "Is he a joker?" "'Does he mean everything that comes out of his mouth?" "'I get the argument about foreign policy 'and agree with him on many things, 'but there's always a point where he goes way too far." "'For most of us, what he says is crazy.'" "But his followers soak it up." "I can think of one place that might shed some more light on Anjem and his friends." "East London Mosque has often been linked to extremism by the media, and has been the subject of more than one investigative documentary." "It's a place Rich used to pray at sometimes." "Back then, I was never able to get access within its cloistered walls." "It was an idea I gave up on." "However, much can change in four years." "Food raid!" "It's 9pm, and it's Ramadan." "I have struck up a friendship with the mosque's communication officer, Salman, and his friend, Tariq." "I join them for a rather belated breaking of the fast." "It's been a long day without food and water...for them." "This is apparently a "special iftar"." "No, it's not." "Every household..." "All I care about, yeah, it says food, it says hot, and it says halal." "That's it, I'm happy." "DOORS CLOSING" "'It's late, so one of my friends leaves for home.'" "Take care." "'It's now just Salman and I to break fast.'" "Oh, you're a weak vegetarian!" "'But I don't think Salman has invited me 'into his office to talk about special iftars." "'There is some Muslim fan mail he wants to show me.'" "We have to deal with hate mail that comes through our doors." "By far, this is light compared to some of the other stuff that's in here." "Um..." "look at that." "Someone's sent this CD here of pornographic content, to the mosque, thinking that one of our imams or someone unsuspecting is going to open it." "How often do you receive these?" "When, let's say that a specific news story has run about the Muslim community in a negative and pejorative way, it just incites these individuals to send us hate mail." "I guess Anjem Choudary is kind of held responsible for a lot of it?" "Yes, by all means." "Every time he says something in the media, that kicks off tensions." "He gets prominence." "I've spoken to journalists and they have him on speed-dial." "When they need a nutty joke, you know, a nutty quote, they just quickly press the speed dial, and ask him" ""What do you think about this?"" "And he'll give them exactly what they want, and they've got their headline." "'Conversation turns to Woolwich." "'East London Mosque had strongly condemned the attack.'" "After we published our condemnation of the murder in Woolwich, an individual came to visit the mosque." "He's coming after prayer and what he does is, he comes to myself and one of the imams who is closely affiliated with this mosque and he starts a conversation with me, asking why we condemned the Woolwich killing and that's it," "things started getting a bit heated from that moment on." "'Another radical Islamist was about to make his entrance.'" "He called in one of his friends who's actually a revert." "And he starts a conversation with me and to the imam, with no respect or any kind of decorum." "Do you know them?" "Yeah." "Oh, you know them?" "I'm not sure if it is, but it looks like Abdullah Deen." "Ah, I think that's possibly his name." "So, yeah, he came into the mosque and he was starting trouble." "'It's my friend, Abdullah Deen, the perfume seller, 'who we met earlier outside the Iranian embassy." "'I must say I'm a little confused to see him taking on an entire mosque'." "How do you get across to people like that?" "You know, how do you do it?" "It's tough." "You know, everybody tends to blame the Muslim community." ""You guys are not doing enough." "It's your problem", blah, blah, blah." "How do you get through to people who've gone that far down the line?" "How do you pull 'em out?" "You know?" "What do you do?" "Stick 'em into solitary confinement, what?" "You know." "It's the million dollar question." "That's it, really." "And I don't think even sticking them into solitary confinement helps." "You know?" "The members of the congregation just kicked them out." "You see, that's community dealing with the problem." "You know?" "They'll take action." "They're not going to say "Hey, come in", you know," ""How about you hang around a bit longer" ""and spew out more of your hatred?"" "No, you're seen as a problem." "Get rid of you, you're not allowed to propagate any hate from here." "And they know that if they don't leave, they will probably get thrown out physically." "Removed?" "Yeah." "'Abdullah disputed the mosque's point of view, 'but didn't want to comment on it." "'To see him kicking off at the mosque is surprising." "'I have never seen him in this light before." "'But then again, seeing this change in character 'is something I know only too well." "'One of the things that struck me most 'about getting to know Rich and his friends 'was the contrast between scary and nice." "'I often enjoyed hanging around with these guys." "'They were very polite and good natured, sometimes even funny.'" "We're off." "You're off?" "We're like bad eggs, we're off." "'And then there was this kind of off-the-scale ranting 'that would take me by surprise." "'And their sense of superiority over us non-believers.'" "Burn, burn, USA!" "Burn, burn, USA!" "'If you were to ask any young Muslim where the hate comes from, 'they'll probably tell you about foreign policy." "'Western wars in Muslim lands are a hot topic among Islamic youth.'" "My stepbrother, Richard Dart, you may..." "Now I know, I recognise your face." "My Brother The Islamist." "I watched the documentary." "It was, er, emotive, to be honest with you." "He met some strange guys, I would say, and the thing is that to focus on them is very strange." "If you spent your whole documentary focusing on the three guys he knew and not thinking about the wider world context that has bred this situation..." "Wherever you go, you'll hear the same thing." "Any Muslim you speak to, go and ask any young guy out there, they will tell you what they see, constantly, day in, day out." "They see what happens to their fellow Muslim brethren." "You have to ask yourself, why is it that Muslims are so frustrated and can't do anything when they see their co-religionists being tortured and humiliated in disgusting and horrible ways on a mass level?" "'I'm always told it's the main reason 'for the radicalisation of converts." "'And it's always used to justify acts of terror 'when they're committed." "'I don't think it's all coincidence, 'and it doesn't take much digging around 'to see things that will make your blood boil." "'This infamous leaked video 'shows US forces gunning down a group of people, 'which includes journalists." "'To watch this makes me sick and incredibly angry." "'But I'm no extremist." "'Maybe it's time I consulted a psychologist..." "'An imam psychologist.'" "This is part of the crisis of the Muslim world..." "'Sorry, a fish and chip loving imam psychologist" " Alyas Karmani." "It's bizarre, it's such a Pakistani thing to do on a Friday, have fish and chips." "Even from when I was a kid, we always had fish and chips." "My mouth is watering, so we need to stop soon and get stuck in." "How's the fish and chips?" "Pretty good." "OK, good." "Better than down south, eh?" "Oh, I wouldn't say that." "OK, OK." "I think there are some pretty good fish and chip shops in Weymouth." "OK, uh-huh." "'He has an interesting theory that draws comparison 'between extremists on opposing ends of the shouty-shouty spectrum, 'and how similar they really are'." "One of the important things we're trying to show is that the process of someone becoming what you call a far-right extremist, it's a similar process for any other type of extremism." "It's no different." "And what it is, it's often young angry men, who feel very disaffected, they don't feel they've got a place in society, who feel there are things wrong." "And they feel powerless." "A lot of it is about being disempowered." "And suddenly, the ideology gives them power." "It gives them some kind of significance, some kind of importance." "You'll also find that both sets of groups are authoritarian." "They are kind of misogynistic, they see women's role as very subservient." "You know, there are charismatic individuals who are involved in these groups who manage to connect with these guys, and provide them some kind of direction and focus." "Those individuals have vulnerabilities." "And they prey on those particular vulnerabilities to really entice those individuals into their particular kind of narrative." "So regardless of whether you're on the extreme right, or if you're an Islamic extremist, those people have gone through a similar process and have had similar stories?" "That's right, yeah." "You'll find similar stories." "You'll find it like," ""I didn't fit in in society, I was bullied when I was young"." "Issues around emotional wellbeing." "You've got individuals with issues around psychological trauma." "Sometimes they've been the victims of violence themselves." "Sometimes being in a dysfunctional family," "I mean, not having a father figure sometimes." "All of these are similar issues that they have experienced." "But guess what?" "Becoming a warrior, and becoming someone who is a champion for their race, does bolster their self-esteem." "'I guess you really do have to be lost to be found." "'I can definitely see parallels in what Alyas is describing 'and Rich's own life." "His dad left the country 'when he was quite young, and when he grew up, 'he always admitted he didn't quite fit in with society.'" "I remember one time, I went to a McDonald's in France, and they literally got Eminem, and a rapper called Nate Dogg, talking about illicit sexual intercourse and swearing." "And it's not being censored at all." "And you've got little kids running around there." "You know, it's quite shocking." "Even then, I was a non-Muslim, but obviously you have that Fitrah of commanding good, forbidding evil." "And I was quite outspoken about it." "I was like "What's going on?" ""This is terrible that this kind of thing is going on"." "A few days later, and I'm mingling with tourists on Tower Bridge." "But it's not the boat regatta I'm here to see." "I'm here for another very different British pastime..." "Protesting." "The English Defence League are staging a rather boisterous protest." "Back off, back off!" "Move, or I'll move ya!" "Fucking scum, the lot of ya." "That's not very nice, mate." "BLEEP!" "'They really are a charming lot." "'But I'm not here to mingle." "'I'm here to speak with Tommy Robinson - their leader." "What do you think about young British people that have been radicalised?" "Young British people?" "Yeah, my stepbrother was radicalised." "Oh, how are you doing?" "You're Richard Dart's brother." "Er, I think that ideology...you see, what has been done since that happened to your step-brother?" "Now he's in jail on terrorism, what's being done to tackle that ideology?" "What are the government doing to address that ideology?" "What are the Islamic community doing to address that Da'Wah on the streets of our country?" "Nothing." "What do you think it is that causes people to become radicalised, then?" "It's a powerful, powerful ideology within Islam, and it's a togetherness, a brotherhood." "Straightaway, you belong." "Straightaway, you belong." "So I don't know what your brother was like." "But the majority of these people are lonesome, and don't really have a belonging in life, don't have a big community feeling." "And they're taken into that, and straightaway, it's "Wow"." "And then they're manipulated and manipulated and manipulated." "Do you not think that sometimes, this results in more radicalisation?" "Mate, we started four years ago, yeah?" "And every on year on year, this radicalisation has been going on for 1,400 years, know what I mean?" "You're not going to blame us for 9/11, as well are you?" "Or 7/7?" "Or the Beslan massacre, was that our fault?" "It doesn't mean we hate all Muslims." "It just means there's an Islamist problem, there's a problem when it comes down to manipulating people's minds, and what is being done to protect those people?" "'He's not likely to find a job as a diplomat, 'but like Alyas, Tommy does have a point." "'Young people perhaps lacking identity or direction in life 'are incredibly vulnerable to being sold big ideas 'and the sense of belonging 'that being part of a radical movement provides." "No surrender!" "No surrender to the Taliban!" "Scum!" "Scum!" "Scum!" "And like Rich, they are easily manipulated." "Murderers!" "Murderers!" "Alyas, the fish and chip imam from Bradford, has invited me and some friends to join him in a "thought experiment"." "But first, there is some BBC paperwork to fill in." "Can you think of the kind of hazards involved in this thought experiment?" "How could you put that in a risk assessment?" ""Hazard - radicalisation"." ""Hazard - radicalisation"!" "'He says he can show us how easy it can be to become radicalised." "'But he hasn't met my PC middle-class friends before.'" "How many people in Britain are of the view that those four " ""Actually, nah, they don't represent the 2 million Muslims in the UK." ""They're nothing to do with that, they're crackpots"." "How many people have that view?" "Which view?" "That they're the minority, they don't represent..." "Yeah." "Honestly?" "Do you actually think that?" "I'm just, um, yeah, I reckon..." "Yeah, I honestly believe that.." "'They're not going to make easy fundamentalists.'" "I want you to imagine you're a young Muslim growing up in Britain, in your early twenties, and after ten years of nonstop War on Islam in the media..." "People access a different media." "You've already got no hope or credibility in the mainstream media." "I'm going to look for an alternative media that gives me the issues from the perspective that I want." "So you go looking for that." "Where are you going to look for that media?" "The internet." "Yeah, and on the internet, whose narrative is it?" "That's the whole thing." "Whose truth is it?" "'Despite my friends' stoic determination, 'it's hard not to be affected by the imagery that Alyas is showing us.'" "A particular mindset is exposed to that, immersed in it." "Alongside a very powerful narrative, which is basically, "Look what's happening to us"." "We become desensitised to violence." "If I can add, very charismatically, a few verses from the Koran," ""We've got to fight jihad, guys"." ""We've got to, and if you're martyrs...and the glory of Islam," ""and the glory of sacrificing our lives to save others..."" "For someone who's nothing, you know what, who feels "Society has pissed all over me." ""But you know what?" "I can have the glory of being a warrior."" "This is where Richard's case is really...that's why I'm doing this, because this is about vulnerability." "There's vulnerable people out there." "The environment is so, I could say so fertile, for you to do that radicalisation, creating the anger, the frustration, the sense of despair.." "it's really easy." "I sense that Alyas has struck a chord." "Yeah, I still don't think I'd ever see violence as an answer." "Maybe not." "Thanks, I hope that's been quite useful." "My friends haven't been radicalised." "But then again, they're not really vulnerable, which I guess is the point." "Yeah, I find it hard to understand how, still." "From Richard's point of view, let's say, he's had a very similar identity to what we've got." "To go from that to that just by being exposed to that," "I don't think it sits right." "There's obviously something else..." "My friends can't get around how a simple lack of identity can cause somebody to go so far." "And I agree." "A charismatic preacher and the effect of foreign policy may also be part of the deal." "But there is someone else who I want to meet, with a very personal story that doesn't quite fit the mould." "The police came and told us of his arrest just before midnight." "I'll never forget the shock I felt on hearing the news." "I could not believe that my son could be involved in something like this." "Vicki Ibrahim's son, Andy, didn't have anyone to radicalise him." "It happened all alone, through the internet." "Cos he was spending so long on PC games, he didn't really go out with friends very much at all." "We realised he hadn't been talking to people at the mosques about things, but he had been spending enormous amounts of time on the internet, looking at what people would call radical or extremist sites." "He had done a reconnaissance of a shopping mall in Bristol, he had bought bottles of peroxide, and these were stored in his flat." "He had made some HMTD, which he stored in the refrigerator." "What's HMTD?" "Explosive chemical." "We only discovered all this after his arrest." "Andy was stopped before he got a chance to kill." "But his actions still led to him being convicted as a terrorist." "He's now in prison." "I wish we could go back five years, and none of this had happened." "It's very hard to deal with it." "Five years on, it's still very painful for all of us." "I'm reminded of the devastating effect this stuff has on families." "I wonder what kind of material Andy might have been looking at." "This highly disturbing recruitment video was made by Al-Shabaab and aimed at British Muslims." "It quickly went viral." "The mujahideen of Woolwich, Mohammed Merah" "Nidal Hassan, Farooq Abdulmutallib, they all saw themselves as part of a bigger struggle." "A struggle for the dominance of Allah's law on earth and the establishment of his Sharia." "So if it's impossible for you to make it safely to any of the lands of jihad, then follow the example of your brothers in Woolwich," "Toulouse, Texas and Boston." "The internet can be a dangerous place." "It's deeply shocking." "Abdullah Deen, the star of East London Mosque CCTV, has agreed to meet up for a stroll." "I used to have TV." "You know when you get TV, then you buy the Sky, you buy the Sky, you get tempted by the movie packages, you get the movie packages, you watch a film, you try to stick to Halal films." "Before you know it, you're watching a film that doesn't have Halal in it." "'I'm relieved that today 'he is still the likeable guy I met four years ago.'" "I mean, don't you miss having a TV?" "It's not that I miss it, but there's a lot more time on your hands to find something to do." "Living in the Western society is very limited, you know, for Halal activity to do." "We are taught that all play is a waste of time, except for archery, swimming and horse riding - and play with the wife is one of the things that's not a waste of time." "'We have never seen eye to eye 'when it comes to Islamic fundamentalism, 'but personally I have always got along with him.'" "I mean, you're friendly to me because, you know, um, we get along...as people." "Um...getting along as people..." "Our way of life would not get along with each other." "It just so happens that all the times we have been together, it is for the purpose of Islam, we're taking about Islam, what Islam entails." "So as far as I can tell, you're questioning Islam, so I'm obliged to give you the answers." "You might be able to say that we get along, but let's talk about the afterlife, and what comes next, in this sense we're not going to get along." "Because I, as a Muslim, believe that for your salvation on the Day of Judgment, you should embrace Islam, and worship Allah and accept the final message of Muhammad, sallallahu alayhi wasallam and if you don't accept this as a way of life," "then I, as a Muslim, believe which my Koran teaches me, then this person will be placed in the hellfire, after continuously hearing, er, the call to Islam." "So we'll get along, I can be kind to you, we can even sit down and eat some chicken and chips together, this is not an issue." "As long as it's Halal." "But we will be separated on the Day of Judgment." "I'm devastated." "But it isn't the first time I have been shot down." "So every time I've spoken to some of the brothers and I've felt there might be sort of friendship, or...sort of warm feelings towards each other, I'm just being mistaken." "Obviously they're trying to incline you to Islam, innit." "And maybe you'll become a Muslim." "And then you can have a proper friendship." "Obviously, it's not false they're trying to get close to you." "But until you become Muslim, then there's going to be a barrier there, because Allah tells there to be." "It's funny - this is the first time I've actually been to the prison." "It's strange knowing just behind those walls there, somewhere, is Rich." "I wonder what he's doing." "It's Friday, so...probably" "Friday prayers today." "Is he reading the Koran in his cell, is he playing ping-pong?" "You know." "It's just strange thinking about life behind the walls." "# Well, I heard there was a secret chord" "# That David played and it pleased the Lord" "# But you don't really care for music... #" "And he's refused to see me." "I don't know why he's refused to see me." "Maybe it's because... he knows I'm making a film, and...he doesn't trust me." "Because I'm a disbeliever." "And he doesn't trust disbelievers." "Maybe everything in the two years after the film went out and leading to his arrest, where we were getting along just fine, and being friends was..." "just a facade." "And that... ..he'd always intended to leave the country, to try and get training, to fight jihad." "To die a martyr." "I hate what's happened to Rich." "What he's done to himself, and his family." "But I still worry about the rhetoric from Anjem, and preachers like him." "Does he know that when he takes these guys under his wing, does he actually know that he's playing with their lives?" "He's playing with their families' lives?" "Dunno." "And does he have a conscience at all?" "I feel like I have been here before." "Just push!" "'Yes, it's that travel hotel in Chingford." "I've got a couple of heavies with me." "Where are the lattes?" "That machine's not very good. is it?" "Shall we get them to make some?" "You know the score." "'I want to challenge Anjem again 'on accepting responsibility for the part he played 'in radicalising Rich, and others like him.'" "Brother Salahuddin embraced Islam at my hand." "And he's a fantastic individual, and very good friend of mine." "I believe that even if he was going abroad, he was going abroad to develop his own character and his personality." "From an Islamic perspective, for the Muslims to go anywhere in the world and stand with their brothers and sisters and defend their life and their property is extremely noble and commendable, in any Muslim's book, wherever you may be in the world." "OK." "And you would encourage that?" "I encourage people to fulfil their Islamic responsibility." "If I thought it was better for me to go abroad, I'd be abroad." "But I feel I can fulfil my responsibility..." "But do you encourage others, who look up to you, and follow you... to, to do that?" "Well, the thing is," "I don't think many people look up to me and follow me..." "I think they do!" "No, they follow the Koran and they follow the tradition and the message of Muhammad, sallallahu alayhi wasallam." "It's not individual, if you like, eulogising that's taking place here." "No, but I mean it's..." "It's people following Islam." "I'll come to your point, your point is, am I recruiting people and sending them abroad?" "The point is no." "'A straight answer - I wasn't expecting that!" "'I'll continue.'" "Can you admit that you have that influence on people?" "Well, look, ah, I don't think that" "I'm influencing people to go abroad, quite frankly and honestly." "There's nobody that's been abroad who's..." "You're not stupid." "..written a letter to me," ""Thank you very much for facilitating my trip abroad."" "You know, if you want to believe communist, you know, outlets, like Hope not Hate, the fact that I'm behind 200 or 300 people going abroad, ah, you know, I am a conveyor belt to terrorism" "and, you know, I'm the biggest factor since, I don't know, Osama Bin Laden on recruiting people to go to the battlefield, then you can do that." "But you know, I think there's a hospital in South London for mental people, I'm sure they have places for people like yourself." "'I live in south London!" "'Still not quite there yet..." "I'll try again.'" "What I kind of almost want you to do is just accept that you have some kind of responsibility for being so influential in Rich's journey, his story, and others like him." "It's just, take a little bit of responsibility there because it's..." "Look, let me put it like this." "I do believe that I was influential in, ah," "Brother Saluhuddin's development, in his Islamic understanding." "And I believe he became a very good propagator of Islam." "He used to come to all our road shows, our stalls, etc and I am extremely proud of him." "I think that, you know, he passed his message from your film," "My Brother The Islamist, to millions of people around the world." "But I at no time asked him to go abroad, you know." "I didn't ask him to attend any kind of training camp in this country, and by all accounts he lost contact with me over the last year, and I heard about his arrest like everybody else." "I didn't know he was going abroad, you know," "I didn't know where he was going, he was doing it on his own account." "I knew he wanted to go, I think, to Egypt, he wanted to study Arabic language, but Afghanistan or Pakistan training for jihad operations, this is all new to me." "So, you know, this is where I stand because I believe in a covenant of security in this country and I believe that we can fulfil our responsibility here so this is where I stand" " I'm not saying I didn't have an influence, but if you want to say that I'm the one who encouraged him to go abroad or to carry out operations, this is not the case." "How about that arm wrestle?" "Are you ready for the arm wrestle?" "You know what, when you arm wrestle you end up hurting your arm for a few days." "And I need my left and my right arms." "CHANTING:" "Sharia for Burma!" "Sharia for Burma!" "# All around me are familiar faces" "# Worn out places Worn out faces... #" "I don't think Anjem and I are ever likely to agree about what happened to Rich." ""Fight them with your wealth, with your body, with your tongue!"" "His rhetoric is intoxicating and I think his views are dangerous and often irresponsible." "Jihad!" "Jihad!" "Jihad!" "Jihad!" "But he's smart." "He knows where the line is." "The thing is, some of those who used to follow him aren't always afraid to cross it." "# ...the dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had... #" "I believe people like Anjem plant seeds that grow into extremism." "The seeds thrive on anger and frustration." "The problem is, there's a lot to be angry about." "# ...mad world" "# Mad world... #" "Extremism provides a potent identity and sense of belonging for those who maybe were once lost." "And for some, it gives a powerful sense of purpose - something to fight for, and against." "The unsettling truth is there is no simple answer to what happened to my step-brother, and continues to happen to others every day." "I cannot reach Rich through the prison walls." "I wish I could look him in the eye and ask him what he was thinking." "I find myself returning again and again to the last of our filmed interviews, six months before he left to find training in Pakistan." "In Sharia, if you kill a non-Muslim unjustly, there's a hadith that says you'll never smell the fragrance of Paradise." "What are your hopes for the future?" "My hopes for the future?" "Hopefully, similar to when I first came into Islam, to try to continue to seek the pleasure of Allah, Insha'Allah, to struggle for the Caliphate until the day that I die, Insha'Allah, and die on what we call Tahweed, the worshipping only of Allah" "and the following and obeying only of Allah." "Is Rich a terrorist?" "I think he would say Jihadist." "In hindsight, maybe a prison sentence shouldn't have come as such a surprise." "Somebody told me that you've been inside, quite recently?" "Yeah." "What did you do?" "It was a religiously aggravated common assault." "They're the sort that Anjem's preying on." "Very easy to manipulate, very easy to manipulate." "You look at most of them, I don't know why, a lot of them are ginger." "They are!" "It's the truth." "Because they haven't been accepted." "But start showing 'em some love, they're in." "My son needs me." "He deserves a second chance." "We should give him that chance."