"'Tonight on Panorama, do-it-yourself justice.'" "I'm going to say to the judge when I go back in it's not fair that I don't have a title." "I'm not a solicitor." "I haven't done this before, but I have a lot to say." "'Legal aid cuts means more people than ever representing 'themselves in court.'" "I got what I wanted." "So, yeah, all that work's paid off." "'But while some relish the challenge, others fall apart.'" "I thought that I could do it, and I'm quite a strong character, but when I got in there all the odds were against me." "'And judges are warning the scales of justice are tipping 'dangerously out of balance.'" "You are undermining the essential principle of equal access to the courts and equal access to the law." "'John's an engineer from Huddersfield." "'Now he's had to become a legal expert, too." "'He and his ex-wife are in dispute about how often 'he sees his child, and the case is going to court." "'John is representing himself.'" " Morning." " Morning." " How are we doing?" " I'm very well." "How are you?" " Yeah, not bad." " Are you ready for court today?" " Just about." " Great." "Is this your office?" "Is this where you kind of operate from?" "Yeah, we do a little bit here." "I do a lot of me printing at the library, cos I don't have printing facilities." "'Because he's on benefits, 'two years ago John would have qualified for legal aid." "'Now family disputes like this 'are no longer entitled to state funding.'" "You've got your shoes, your socks, your suit, your tie, your shirt..." " Yeah." " ..and your cufflinks." " We've got the cufflinks, yeah." "Just got to make an effort, haven't you?" "'Today's his eighth court appearance as a so-called "litigant in person"." "'That means no barrister or solicitor." "John will be on his own." "'For legal reasons, we can't use his real name.'" "There is a lot at stake, but... ..y'know, I can't afford a solicitor, so..." "I'm not going to walk away." "I had no choice." "You've just got to make the best of it that you can." "It needs to be done, so, yeah, bring it on." "Legal aid was introduced in 1949, part of the post-war plan to create a welfare state." "It was to give people access to professional lawyers, guaranteeing equal access to the law for all." "NEWSREEL:" "It is administered not by a government department but by the legal profession itself, through the Law Society." "'But by 2010, the annual bill for legal aid in England 'and Wales had risen to £2.1 billion.'" "The idea that this extraordinarily generous system that the" "British had acquired thanks to lobbying over the years should be sacrosanct and left untouched and couldn't be reduced was not one I agreed with." "'In April 2013, the Legal Aid Sentencing and Punishment 'of Offenders Act, known as Laspo, was introduced in England and Wales." "'It's cut the legal aid budget by £350 million by removing funding for 'most divorce, medical negligence and private family law cases." "'Northern Ireland and Scotland 'have also made cuts to their legal aid budgets, 'changing or reducing payments to solicitors and barristers." "'Without free access to lawyers for those of low income 'or on benefits, it's led to a new world of do-it-yourself justice." "'Ordinary people have to build their own court cases, 'construct their own legal arguments 'and ultimately persuade a judge of the merits of their case." "'Rochelle Ezekiel has reluctantly become one of these new 'litigants in person." "'She's taking legal action to try to win custody of her daughter." "'She's a beautiful little girl." "Got a huge dimple..." "'She, like..." "I don't know, she's really lovely, 'and she laughs a lot and she likes to sing and dance and... '..she's very friendly, and she speaks well." "'Rochelle did look after her daughter until she was six, 'but in May 2013 Rochelle had a mental breakdown and was sectioned." "'The child went to live with her dad's mum." "'Two years on, she's still there." "'Rochelle now believes she is well enough to have her daughter back 'and is getting her room ready for her return.'" "Yeah, I did decorate it for her, but at least she'll know," ""Mummy loves me, my mummy wanted me back with her,"" "whether she comes home or not, and all that." "She'll know when she grows older." "'Rochelle applied for legal aid but was refused." "'Under the new rules, she did not qualify." "'In the last year, family cases receiving state funding 'has fallen by 80%." "'Rochelle has enlisted her father's help with the court papers.'" "To be honest with you, I find this very difficult." "Sometimes, when you're filling in these forms, you don't know whether you're filling in the right thing." "It's too much work, you know?" "And if I go through the forms, I can just tell you I've got a C1A form, I've got a C100 form, an EX160 form." "I don't understanding the meaning of all this." "I'm a lay person, and I don't understand the legality or the legal jargon which is supposed to be stated in these forms." "You're staring at the judge and he's telling you this needs to happen and this needs to happen, but, like, to me, it's, like, "What are you talking about?"" "'Judges rarely give interviews to the media, 'but one former Court of Appeal judge feels so strongly 'about the reforms that he wants to speak out.'" "I think it touches upon an absolute basic principle of the law, which is access to the courts." "There should be equality under the law." "That means not just the way the law treats people equally but in their ability to be able to vindicate their rights and argue their cases irrespective of their means." "'But had legal aid funding gone too far?" "'Was it right that legal aid was 'used to sue the NHS for medical negligence?" "'Was it reasonable that the taxpayer should bankroll family break-up 'and child access disputes?" "'And was it fair that legal aid was lining 'the pockets of the country's lawyers?" "'Law form Duncan Lewis earned the most from taxpayer-funded 'legal aid in 2011." "'In one year alone, they were paid £15.8 million." "'The papers called them fat cats.'" "That image is a gross misconception." "£15.8 million into 19,000 clients in its crudest form amounts to about £800 per legal aid bill." "I think what you would find is that the vast, vast majority of legal aid lawyers would be on a salary between £22,000 and maybe £40,000." "There's a suggestion that solicitors were bankrolling fairly dubious court cases with legal aid, effectively underwriting the risk of doing so with taxpayers' money." " Would you say that's something that happens here?" " No, not at all." "I think it's really, really important that everybody fully understands that there is no gravy train, there is no bankrolling public purses' money when it should be spent elsewhere." "We're really keen to increase your online profiles, OK?" "'The Government has reduced the money it pays to 'solicitors for civil cases by £141 million a year." "'Duncan Lewis has restructured, 'but many smaller companies have stopped doing legal aid work." "'To minimise the impact of legal aid cuts on vulnerable people, 'the coalition government did put in place some safeguards." "'If victims of domestic abuse can prove 'they have been subjected to severe or sustained 'violence in the last two years, they can apply for legal aid help." "'Jane's former partner has a conviction for abusing her." "'We've hidden her identity for legal reasons.'" "I had a lot of black eyes and a lot of body bruising." "Physically, the effects, I suppose, they go quite quickly, the bruising disappears, but mentally, the scars, you know, they stay forever." "'Now Jane believes her ex-partner has been violent towards their child 'and wants to stop his access arrangement." "'But his abuse towards her was more than two years ago, 'so she doesn't qualify for legal aid." "'She can't afford a solicitor, so she will have to take the case 'herself and question her abuser in court." "'It's a situation that concerns many family court judges.'" "I think it shocking that a woman should be put in the situation where she has to cross-examine her abuser." "'When it came to her day in court," "'Jane couldn't face questioning her former partner." "'I was extremely emotional." "I left the courtroom in tears." "I felt sick.'" "I didn't feel like I had anybody on my side, nobody there to back me up." "I felt like... ..the whole process from start to finish was just a waste of time." "'The judge ordered that her former partner should have supervised 'access visits.'" "What would you say to people who say, "You had your opportunity," ""you had your moment in court"?" "I thought that I could do it, and I'm quite a strong character, but when I got in there, all the odds were against me, and it's a totally different situation when you're there." "I don't believe you've got... a chance, to be honest, being stood in court doing the job that somebody gets paid an awful lot of money for." "And they know the ropes." "I didn't." "The courtroom is a very frightening place for an ordinary member of the public." "And it doesn't matter how much you try to put them at their ease, they've come in all tense and wound up about having to be in this arena." "'Campaigners challenged the restrictions on legal aid 'for victims of domestic violence in court, but they failed." "'Even a Parliamentary committee recommends there should be 'more flexibility when evidence of abuse is older than two years." "'But reformers say limits were necessary.'" "You can't just have historic allegations of domestic abuse being used to give you legal aid in a case where that allegation of domestic abuse is nothing to do with the argument that the parties are now having." "And I'm sorry, you have to have some sensible rules." "The rules are there to protect vulnerable people, and the rules are there to give special treatment to those who have recently experienced domestic abuse." "'The Government did create another safety net for vulnerable adults who 'don't automatically qualify for legal aid." "'It's a discretionary scheme called Exceptional Case Funding." "'Rochelle, who has a diagnosis of bipolar disorder, 'would seem like a good candidate, but her application failed.'" "I tried to get exceptional funding because of my mental illness, because of my mental illness and because of the fact that my dad's not really capable of representing me at 70-plus..." "..cos it is a lot of stress and it is a lot of hard work." "And obviously, with a mental illness, it makes it harder." "'In the last year, 1,500 people applied for exceptional funding 'but just 69 were successful." "'Critics say it shows the scheme is not acting as a safety net, 'but the Government told us the system is functioning as intended." "'It's been two years 'since Rochelle started legal action to win back custody of her daughter." "'Today is the start of the hearing which will decide 'if her application has been successful.'" " Morning." "How you doing?" "Are you well?" " Yeah." "How are you feeling about today?" " Well, I'm a little bit worried, to be honest." " You're worried?" "I've been trying to relax more than anything else for the whole case, to be honest, cos the amount that you have to do..." "When you get to court, they do ask a lot, and I want to be on point," "I don't want, like, little details to be missed." "So I think if I keep going over it, it's going to kind of do my head in a little bit." "Here it is." " That's it." " Yeah?" "I'll let you go." "'Rochelle will be representing 'herself in court against the solicitor appearing for the father." "'She can't afford to pay for an expert witness 'to attend court on her behalf." "'Despite that, she seems positive.'" "Hopefully I'm going to get my daughter back, so I'm quite happy." "And if I don't get her back, then at least I'm going to have, like, unsupervised contact with her at my house, and stuff." "'Rochelle's parents come to give her some moral support.'" "You all right?" "What's going on?" "'Today, the judge will ask Rochelle to present evidence of her 'capability to look after her daughter." "'But by early afternoon, she's had enough.'" "Basically, I've just walked out of the court, because I've lost my temper." "They're basically listening to everything the solicitor's saying on the other side, not listening to what I'm saying." "I'm going to say to the judge when I go back in, it's not fair I don't have a title." "I'm not a solicitor." "I haven't done this before, but I have a lot to say." "I'm being treated unfairly and I need to, like, get my point across." "I'm really emotional about what's been said." "Some solicitor wouldn't be so emotionally attached to the case, where I am, and, like, I can't help it, that's my child." "'Rochelle goes back in to argue her case." "'I spent the day in court watching how things went." "'She remained very emotional, and at the end of the day, 'she's disappointed.'" "Bye-bye, darling." "Bye." "I'm talking too much when I should be keeping my mouth closed, cos I'm getting a bit aggressive and I'm talking, y'know, when I'm not supposed to be talking." "I'm a little bit like... ..y'know, "No, I know!", like, instead of keeping my mouth shut and waiting for them to finish." "To represent yourself in court as a litigant in person, you need to understand the procedures, and the most important procedure is presenting your case at the right time in the right way, and Rochelle is incapable of sticking" "to the rules, doing what she needed to do when she needed to do it." "That was evident by the frustration of the judge, who continuously had to stop her and ask questions of the witnesses on her behalf." "'It seems this experience is not unusual." "'According to a recent government report, 'judges estimate that cases involving litigants in person can 'take 50% longer 'than those represented by a legal professional.'" "In measuring the cost and the savings, there never seems to be an accurate measurement of how much extra it costs if you don't have skilful, independent advocates arguing the case freely, assisting the judge, because the cases will take longer," "the judge will be desperately trying to identify the issues, identify the appropriate questions and assisting the witnesses in giving the answers." "'The Government say that recent figures do not show strong 'evidence that the length of court hearings has significantly 'changed since the legal aid reforms." "'They say there have always been litigants in person in family 'cases and have allocated £2 million for advice and training schemes.'" "It has never been possible just to say to the taxpayer," ""We'll give every man a lawyer"." "Why, if you're very poor or on benefit you get paid for by a taxpayer is a question worth asking, and I'm in favour of doing that, but only where there's a general public interest in doing so," "not just where it'll give the litigant a better chance of winning, in his or her opinion." "'Back in Huddersfield, John will learn today whether 'his four-year battle to get more time with his child 'has been successful." "'He'll have to present his case against the barrister 'and solicitor appearing for his ex-wife.'" " Good morning." " Morning." "All right?" " How you doing?" " Yeah, not bad." " So, it's the final hearing today." " Yeah." " So you've got everything that you need?" " Yeah, I've got everything." "As you can see, it's getting bigger and bigger." "It started off with a simple application form." "I've got 900 pages now." "But look, let's get in there so you can do what you need to do." "Let's go!" "'John hasn't worked for the last four years, 'giving him plenty of time to become an expert in family law." "'Now it's the moment of truth." "Can he compete with paid professionals?" "'He has." "He's won.'" "I guess I was methodical." "I tried not to miss anything out and even had more in reserve if necessary." "It's taken a lot of research and a lot of dedication." "I've almost not had a life." "It's taken over." "But of course I've done it for my child." "'Litigants like John show that an ordinary person can represent 'themselves successfully." "'But even with his levels of determination and ability, 'there can be other obstacles to getting access to the courts." "'Jason Pink embarked on the most complex form of litigation, 'medical negligence, following the death of his father in 2010 'after surgery for a heart condition.'" "This is perfect for him here, because literally half a mile from where he was born in the house." "'Initially, the operation was declared a success, 'but Mr Pink died two days later 'following emergency surgery to relieve pressure in his heart." "'Jason believes the doctors chose the wrong procedure.'" "I wanted an explanation." "More than that, I wanted an apology, which is all I wanted in the beginning, just someone to say, "You know what?" ""We've probably made some mistakes, and we're truly sorry."" "But very quickly it became apparent that that wasn't going to happen." "'The Pinks felt they had no option but to sue the hospital trust." "'Jason gave up his job as a lorry driver to fight the case 'and discovered that he had a major problem." "'When we filed the case, it was told to us that we 'would need an expert of note to give it grounds.'" "They wouldn't allow three days or two days or whatever it would take in a courtroom and all the people involved based on the opinion of a lorry driver." "'Jason needed an expert witness to confirm his belief 'that hospital negligence was a factor in his father's death." "'Before the reforms in 2013, he might have qualified for legal aid, 'which would have paid for an expert, 'a bill that can run into thousands of pounds." "'The Pinks wrote to dozens of heart specialists, but without 'a solicitor to brief them properly 'and no fee offered, they all refused." "'Then one expert said he'd take another look.'" "The letter I read, it touched a cord, I think, probably essentially it was clear to me that he was grieving, and it seemed to me that I could help them by helping them understand what had happened," "by analysing the information that they sent to me and helping them, indeed, seek redress in the only way that they seemed to be able to use at that time." "'He came back with a report that ratified and agreed with 'everything I'd ever thought, every point that I'd ever made.'" "And it was truly a euphoric moment to think... y'know, "I've spent three years of my life doing this." ""At least I've not kidded myself."" "'Had we not had that, it probably would have ended that day.'" "'A judge agreed to hear the case, but before it came to court, 'the NHS trust made a settlement offer to the Pinks." "'The hospital told Panorama that they do not admit liability and paid 'the money to limit the potential risk of litigation to both parties." "'Despite his own success, Jason believes it's wrong 'to have removed legal aid for cases like his.'" "If you kill someone on the street or if you accidentally kill someone in hospital, a death is a death and it needs to be answered." "So I don't see it as a private case," "I see it as a necessity that people should be brought to book, they should be made to face the consequences." "'The Government say that our legal aid system remains 'one of the most generous in the world, with a £1.5 billion budget." "'The Labour Party say they plan to review the cuts 'if they get into office.'" "We are horrified at the impacts of the Government's cuts to legal aid, and we're going to widen access to justice." "One of our priorities will be to ensure those women in particular who have lost out as a consequence of the Government's changes to legal aid in domestic violence are able to get legal advice and representation." "Does that mean putting money back in where money's been cut?" "There are savings to be made." "We voted against every single one of their proposals." "We will do what we can to widen access to justice again." "'Rochelle has spent two years 'and £800 fighting to win custody of her daughter." "'If she had got legal aid and a solicitor to represent her, 'it would have cost the taxpayer an estimated £10,000." "'Today, Rochelle finds out if she's been successful." "'The written judgment has arrived.'" " Hi, Rochelle." "How are you doing?" " Hi." " Good to see you." " How are you?" " How are you feeling?" " I'm good." "I'm good." " So, you've got the letter?" " Yeah, I have." " OK." "Great." "It's over here." "What's been the worst and best time in the last two years?" "I feel all of it's been really bad." "It's not been something that I'd want to go through or that I'd wish on anybody, cos it is a lot of hard work and it hasn't been a really good journey at all." "It's a long letter." "'The judgment is detailed and a complex read.'" "It's saying that it's a difficult decision." ""I've concluded that it is in the best interests that she should" ""continue to live with Mrs ----."" "It's not good." "Do you understand everything that's been said in that written judgment?" "Yeah, I do, but I'm not happy with it." "And I'm not leaving it." "I'm not leaving somebody else to raise my child." "'Rochelle has lost her case." "'Her daughter will continue to live with her paternal grandparents." "'She will only see her under supervision." "'She fought her court battle on a low income 'and with a history of mental health problems." "'She'll never know if access to a lawyer 'could have changed the outcome." "'The next wave of legal aid cuts are due next year." "'Many people believe these reforms are needed, but equality before 'the law and access to it 'are difficult principles to put a price on." "'It might take us years to realise the savings 'from do-it-yourself justice." "'Figuring out the cost might take even longer.'" "I am quite certain that if you don't allow those who can't afford it legal assistance, that more and more serious miscarriages of justice will occur." "It seems to me inevitable that that will happen if you don't have skilled, independent advocates arguing cases." "When the financial system eases and when you don't need more money for hospitals or schools, then perhaps you should start putting some back into legal aid." "But you've got to ask what justice really requires and really means." "JASON PINK:" "Luckily, I was confident and strong enough and able enough to do it, but for all those people that can't, for whatever reason, they shouldn't be disallowed the opportunity to bring a case with merit to a courtroom." "And that's what's happening."