"A month or a year passes by and people kept saying: you are in Guantanamo, Cuba," "But I refused to believe them." "No, they said, you can take it for granted, this is Guantanamo, Cuba." "Even the books we were given were stamped "Guantanamo Library", but I still refused to believe it." "There was no way to check:" "you are locked up in a cage," "You see nothing but water:" "how can you be sure where you are?" "We weren't supposed to know anything, or do anything." "Just sit quietly and not make any trouble." "That's all." "If you wish we could tell you why the Americans kept you there, what they wanted from you." "Here is your secret file from Guantanamo, it's supposed to be declassified in 2033..." "This part is called - "Reasons for Transfer to Guantanamo"" "To provide information on the following:" "To provide information about Tadjik refugees in Afghanistan..." "The refugees?" "Yes, they asked about them." "And to provide information about a school in Karachi..." "What could I tell them about it?" "They go to Pakistan themselves..." "These were the reasons why they decided to take you to Guantanamo," "They wanted information on refugees in Tadjikistan..." "And a school in Karachi." "That's absurd, 5 years for that!" "They could have asked then, on the spot..." "They could have just asked me while I was in Kandahar." "I mean, if they would at least have had some serious questions, I'd understand..." "But the whole world knew about the Tadjik refugees," "There were a hundred thousand of them." "Maybe more..." "Interrogation, huh!" "I'm surprised that they didn't come up with anything more serious." "I mean they could have at least asked you how a Soviet tank is constructed," "But no they even wrote officially that they were interested in a madrasah." "You must be angry with them?" "I mean I would be pissed off if I had to spend five years in prison for such bullshit." "All for nothing!" "Take a look at this poor bastard." "Five years in Guantanamo..." "To find out about some refugees in Tadjikistan." "It's not just this detainee..." "There are revelations throughout Central Asia about what's happening there." "An extremely interesting strategic region between China and Russia." "This is the State Department's brain the empire of the 21st century." "Bildt is already in correspondence with Karl Rove..." "This is the summary of the cables from Tadjikistan." "The first cable that we have is a scene setter" "For some important person who visited Tadjikistan:" "Regardless of our efforts there is a limit to what Tajikistan can offer." "That's to the United States." "It produces very little, it is poor" "It's government has minimal capacity." "The Tadjiks have some unrealistic ideas of what we can offer them:" "Mainly large infrastructure projects." "Including questionable power plants" "Tunnels to Pakistan and bridges to nowhere." "There is some truth to the quip that Tadjikistan's real contribution" "To our efforts in Afghanistan is to be stable and" "Allow unfettered overflight and transit to our forces" "Which the Tadjiks have done unfailingly." "Ok, so we have another one which is also kind of fun." "It's about how the United States is trying to make the local media more pro-American." "And how do they want to do that?" "Here goes:" "In addition to overt public diplomacy" "Other complimentary efforts could be authorized, such as:" "Aggressive media campaign through the Russian Media" "As well as placements of articles in the major Russian Newspapers" "Read in central Asia" "Ensure that editors see the positive material from Russian media" "And pay them if necessary to re-print it." "To re-print it?" "Yes, they will publish positive material about the United States" "In Gazeta." "Ru, Echo Moskvy and Interfax" "And then they will pay the local editors" "In Tadjikistan, so they re-print those articles." "Do they name some media which they wanted to pay for re-printing?" "It would be interesting to know who they regard as natural partners." "Well, we'll have to look at that in the full documents." "This is just a summary." "So, are we going through the tunnel or around the tunnel?" "Through I think..." "It doesn't look like it's finished." "I'm not sure this tunnel is finished." "I'm not sure either but there there are people here..." "Hi!" "We are heading to Dushanbe, is this the way?" "No." " When will the tunnel be opened?" " No idea" " All the way back..." " Maybe we should turn around." "I wonder if we would have been able to go through anyway?" "Those guys were wearing masks" "Maybe the car would go through, but not us." "Hi!" "Could you tell us how to get to the capital, to Dushanbe?" "Just go straight, and then take a left." "At the foot of the mountain?" "Yes, as soon as the road ends, take a left up the mountain." "Thank you!" "Good luck on your journey!" "We're on our way to the Asia-Plus news agency" "Here in Tadjikistan." "That's our first destination." "Here is the team:" "That's me, Johannes." "This is Dmitri, the Russian journalist from the magazine" "That we have been working with." "This is Alina, who is also a journalist." "And Katya, a film-maker from Kazakhstan." "And this is Theo who will be filming our journey." "We have to be careful." "Ok?" "Yes, I understand but..." "Hello, my name is Marat Mamadshoev." "Who is responsible for being late?" "Not us!" "It's ok, I'm also always late." "Everywhere media observe some red lines that can't be crossed." "What are your red lines?" "Surely we have taboo as well." "But if we were to talk too frankly about our taboo..." "What kind of taboo would that be?" "This interview is only one of the reasons why we are here." "And thank you a lot for that." "But there is another reason why we are here, that may interest you..." "It has to do with WikiLeaks." "I worked with the Russian cables, Johannes worked with the Swedish material." "There are also cables on Tadjikistan." "We propose to give you free access to the secret cables." "What you choose to publish, how you publish, if you publish in your newspaper" "Is entirely up to you." "But we demand that you redact the names of those who need to be protected." "Ok, we are interested." "Ok, in that case there are a couple of terms that you will need to agree upon." "They are written in a Memorandum of Understanding." "But it's not a legally binding document." "In short the terms are: that you may not give this material to anyone else, and you may not sell it." "And if there are people in need of protection..." "We are not talking about some politicians, but about small people." "Lets say a construction worker repaired a stove for" "A powerful figure, and found a hideout with gold." "Then obviously the powerful figure is interesting, while the construction worker will just loose his head." "In that case you need to redact the name of the construction worker." "Obviously we cannot decide in what situation the name of a person is relevant..." "And in what situation it is not, only you can do that." "We'd like you to sign the agreement today..." "But if you need more time, we'll go away." "Let's rather postpone it for tomorrow..." " Are you sure you can't make it today?" " Same time..." "It is a rather short text." "To be on the sure side, we'd rather get an approval from our superior first." "Besides, he knows English better than all of us together." "Perhaps you'll do it?" " We have our way of doing things" " Can't you do it now?" "I am afraid he is asleep we have 12 hours time difference." "He is in Washington DC." "Yes, he is in the US." "If he were here, we'd do it right away!" "I think it is a pure formality." "As comrade Suchov used to say, there is no need to rush to your own execution!" "Well, you are the top man." "You know best!" "No, the top man sits in Washington DC..." "The Washington overlord of Asia Plus..." "Umet Babakhanov." "You should fill out your name and the name of your newspaper here..." "M. Mamadshoev, here..." "We are in the office of one of the future partners" "And they are called 'Asia-Plus'." "Is there a chance that within the coming half hour" "You can be online for Skype?" "You can see me now, correct?" "Yes, hello!" "First I will just give a very brief description" "As to how I think you should approach this material." "The most important thing to do is to read all of it." "If you go searching for particular things you will bring your prejudice to the material" "And you will only find what you already know." "The other is to understand the situation in which these documents are made." "They are made by US diplomats, political officers, economic officers at the US Embassy" "And they are reports on their own activities back to Washington." "Of course I would love to be there myself but I have to live vicariously these days" "By sending these people around the world to engage in some form of remote adventure" "Let us search right away..." "You could at least have started with "Asia Plus", for the sake of decency!" "Marat searched for his own name, the first thing that he did." "They describe me as an "independent journalist"..." " He is called an independent journalist." " That is a big mistake!" " Again, "Marat Mamadshoev"." " Here it is written "Editor" now that is correct!" "So, there are too many references of my name." "Search for "Asia-Plus"." " So..." " 3000 pages!" "Oh my God!" "That's work for the whole night!" " Hello!" " Hi, is that Marat?" "Speaking." "Hi Marat!" "We wanted to make a check up." "Has Asia-Plus published any of the material that you got?" "Yes, we've published a number of articles..." "But the problem is that there are many things in the cables that we cannot publish..." "Because we will be in trouble." "For example there was a cable claiming that a man came to the US Embassy" "And said that he was planning a coup." "We can't publish a thing like this, he would sue us!" "There are things that are very interesting for us," "But I don't know if we can publish them." "Why can't you publish that the man is preparing a coup?" "Well, I don't know." "We have taken some advice and decided not to run the story." "I began with some funny stuff" "I was obliged to edit the column 'letters of readers'" "But the problem was that there were absolutely not letters to edit" "But the column should be published twice a day" "So I was obliged to invent those letters myself" "And I just invented a lot of them." " Did you get some, any letters from readers?" " Yeah, we've got some, I don't know..." "Maybe three, four or five in two months" "But they were all containing some criticism" "These letters you didn't publish?" "No, those letters..." "I wanted to publish at least those that were about" "Problems in the factual content of the newspaper" "Because I found it rather important to have some kind of self criticism." "But our marketing department had no self criticism and they forbid me to publish it." "So I invented letters about problems of veterans problems of pensioners" "Problems of no matter whom." "So that's how I became a journalist." "Now we are going to visit the magazine 'Expert Kazakhstan'" "Which is in the same holding company as my magazine" "And in the same building we have the news-wire 'KazTag'." "Why are you here on this mission?" "Why have you come here," "And why do you want to have these cables published?" "You could say that this is your moral obligation." "Who is paying for your trip?" "You could say that you paid for it with your own money..." "You paid for it all... that's it..." "I for example, wanted to visit Iran to cover the massacres..." "During the elections in 2009 or 2010, just because I was interested." "I paid for the trip with my own money, but nobody believed me!" "In order to pay for it, I bought vegetables and exported them to Kazakhstan." "It helped me to pay for satisfying my main interest, my passion, my curiosity." "I wanted to understand what was really happening there so I found a way to finance it." "If you can show me your goal clearly, it will be easier to negotiate." "Enough!" "Just sign the agreement!" "Share your own thoughts." "Theoretically I understand what you say," "But what's your personal view about the goals of WikiLeaks?" "Look..." "We have a position..." "The advantage of being a beholder." "We observe things that amaze a Swedish or American reader:" ""Look, they killed this guy!" We are not amazed." "We know that every war is cruel and unjust." "And then, the western countries attack Libya or some other country and say:" ""You've got to have democracy, democracy!"" "Then they lay there and understand that, yes - yes, they need democracy." "For sure!" "And Information is a weapon." "You admitted that information is a tool." "That WikiLeaks is a tool." "If an unskilled person will use this tool You can use a shovel to dig." "But you can also use it to behead." "Same here: if an unskilled man will get access to this compromising data" "It will lead to anarchy!" "In your view, people are not ready to consume every sort of information" "So they should not be offered the full choice of it?" " Right, this is my view." " But who is to..." "Who is the judge?" "I am the judge!" "This is not for WikiLeaks..." "but I for example, I'm against democracy." "I don't believe in one man - one vote stuff." "Look at me, I graduated from Law school, I worked, I served in the army," "In the special forces." "I was wounded." "I completed my studies." "I tried to improve myself." "I learned languages..." "I've read Aristotle in the original Greek." "I am sure that I am better and more worthy..." "Than a man who didn't try to improve himself." "This is my view." "Enough!" "I know what WikiLeaks is." "I've formed my own opinion." "It is an absurdist picture of all of us sitting here" "Because all are interested in other people's lives, instead of their own." "That is why WikiLeaks came to exist." "It's a totally useless thing." "It just reminds us of how bad we all are..." "Paying attention to meaningless things..." "Such as what one diplomat told another diplomat..." "And it will change nothing in the world." "We spoke about it yesterday - remember the book on Aristotle that I gave you" "Nothing has changed since the days of Aristotle and nothing ever will." "From this point of view WikiLeaks is an ephemera, a one-day-event." "Now the interest to WikiLeaks has already vanished because its not important." "It's superficial." "WikiLeaks is a superficial shell." "Such things do not impact real changes of mankind of human existence," "They don't promote real changes." "The landscape is changed by inspirational things." "For example, we invented a project:" "how to organize our country..." "This was an idea of Solzhenitsyn." "If we launch it right, this project will inspire people, to change their surroundings" "But the WikiLeaks materials do not inspire people to change the world that they are living in" "Well, we are here, it means that somebody is inspired!" "Perhaps you're right." "I don't want to offend you." "So I'll put it this way:" "I'm not inspired!" "You travel, you are great guys." "But you are wasting your time." "You are wasting your life in vain!" "Nothing will come out of it." "I'm trying to convince my friend to start collaborating with you because" "Yerdos is taking a more journalistic stance than me, he thinks that" "I'm a journalist by profession, that's why I know for sure..." "That collaborating with you will bring economic benefits." "I'm not politically engaged but if we speak about money" "Circulation." "Yes it can help our sales." "I wanted to ask..." "Since we met last time, have you talked to anyone else?" "Because if "Expert" is going to participate - and as far as I understand we are leaning in" "That direction - we would like to talk about an approach where there" "Are not so many other partners." "I know that KazTag is already in on it, but that's OK, since it's a news-wire." "If "Expert" joins the project, would it be possible for us to have the material exclusively?" "Unfortunately we can't do that..." "Hi!" "Can't we pass, is the road closed?" "There are oil-workers on strike here." "They have been on a hunger strike for a week" "According to this police officer, oil-workers are on strike here." "Strange that no journalist told us of this before." " Are you on a hunger strike?" " Yes, it's already the 13th day." " Are you filming me?" " You don't want me to film?" "Don't film me..." "I'm telling you, I'm afraid" "People want to talk and discuss..." "but they are afraid... terrorized..." "Recently, almost everybody was nicked..." "The whole crowd was loaded up into a police van and beaten up" "Five men knifed themselves, two went to the hospital." "Three refused to go to the hospital" "Now six persons plan to knife themselves." " Why do they knife themselves?" " What else can they do?" "We've hunger striked" "Nobody came to us, neither the mayor, nor the authorities..." "We went to the mayor - no result." "He is apparently also in cahoots..." "And the TV doesn't cover it?" "The TV?" "We asked them, but they say:" "the mayor forbade covering it." "They come and film, but they only broadcast what the authorities say," "They never broadcast our interviews." "What do the journalists say?" "Do they apologize?" "What apologies?" "They say:" "we are ordinary guys, just like you." "Our job is to film, and our bosses decide what should be aired." "Massive unrest has struck Zjenauzen." "In the central square while people were strolling and enjoying street theater," "The festivities were suddenly smashed by a raging mob." "Unfortunately there is no other way to describe these people." "What the artists and local citizens gathering to celebrate the main government holiday..." "Had done to enrage the mob is beyond understanding." "It needs to be noted that the police acted more than professionally." "They attempted to defend the stage, but the rioters who were cheered on by their leaders..." "Outnumbered the law enforcers and crushed the fence." "After they had vandalized the stage they continued on their rampage." "They toppled the Christmas tree and the yurtas." "Then the most awful thing occurred:" "the criminals started burning cars," "Attacking public buildings, burning shops, private houses, cash machines." "Instead of celebrating independence day, the citizens of Zjenauzen had to save" "Themselves from the merciless mob." "I got fired because I wrote an article about the conditions of work that Swedish journalists have" "When they work in Israel and Palestine." "And the journalists that I interviewed were very frank with me" "And they told me about the different" "Things that they couldn't report upon" "The things that they could" "The censorship that they experienced at their work place." "When the material was published" "Two of the six journalists that I had interviewed" "They retracted their statements." "So you think they sincerely thought that" "You misunderstood them" "Or took things out of the context?" "I think if somebody does an interview with you" "And then you're entirely open and frank about it" "And then after a while maybe you realise that" "This is going to be shown on television" "Your boss is going to see this, your mother is going to see this" "And you start understanding the consequences" "It is not just a conversation between you and your friends." "But anyway I just thought about it because" "I think to an extent I made a very big mistake with that article." "And the mistake that I did was that..." "I did a very typical journalistic work about journalists." "And the standards for doing journalistic work about journalism" "Has to be a hundred times higher." "Because they will immediately backfire" "And they will start criticizing what you do" "In a completely different way than if it's a regular person." "Because a regular person does not have the power to say no." "Here is a cable which is marked 'Secret/Noforn'" "And that means that not even allied states are allowed to read it" "And it's a meeting between the US ambassador" "And the Kyrgyz foreign minister." "So here it goes:" "The ambassador and the Kyrgyz foreign minister" "Met at the Ambassador's residence mid afternoon." "President Bakiyev, the dictator that was" "Just kicked out in the revolution a few months ago" "Told him that he was authorized" "To sign the agreements on the US military base" "But the agreement must be kept secret." "The foreign minister said that" "He needed time to work with public opinion and the parliament" "Before he could roll out the new agreement publicly." "He asked for our assistance in preparing the Kyrgyz public opinion" "Specifically by placing articles in the local Russian language press." "I was fascinated about power." "I wanted to get to the top floor of the palace." "I served my government not President Bakiev." "I wrote his speeches." "And he read them." "Because I can write beautifully, especially in Kyrgyz." "The president read his speeches..." "But nobody believed what he said." "I felt this all the time." "I even had difficulties looking people in the eyes..." "Especially during the last months of his regime." "I was on the 5th floor of the palace..." "When I saw all the bloodshed with my own eyes." "They attacked from the square..." "I ran from the back of the palace" "It's a long story..." "But on the following morning a weight was lifted from my shoulders." "Because I had found my liberty." "The Kyrgyz society is different from it's neighbors," "It's a vibrant society." "Demonstrations and all of that... is far from negative." "It's just the other side of the coin." "It's a society heading somewhere, trying to achieve something." "I think that the West has also gone through..." "A period of demonstrations and turmoil, right?" "I think that Kyrgyzstan, will soon..." "I want to accentuate it again " "Will become a model for other countries of central Asia..." "Unless someone interferes." "Do you believe this?" "I do!" "It's just that many have told us that this is temporary" "No, I believe in this." "What is happening" " The fact that Radio Liberty exists with its TV-project" "It doesn't exist in the other countries, not in Dushanbe, not in..." "That's true but..." "And that is not a merit to our staff." "It is a merit to the whole Kyrgyz society." "It is not a merit to the president." "The society demands it the society wants it." "In that case, are there in your opinion any questions..." "That you would not be able to publish?" "Anything at all?" "I mean is there any censorship or self-censorship on your station?" "You mean Radio Liberty?" "Yes" "We don't have any forbidden topics." "We are absolutely free." "But we have the statutes of Radio Liberty." "And that is that we must abide by the ethical standards of international journalism." "If you would want to" "We would be able to provide you with the archive on Kyrgyzstan." "Would that interest you?" "Absolutely, that would be very interesting." "And you would be able to use it?" "Absolutely, absolutely," "Absolutely." "Yes we can." "Honestly speaking I didn't expect our interview to be about" "WikiLeaks." "I thought that we," "That I would tell you about freedom of speech in Kyrgyzstan." "The agreement from the side of Radio Liberty..." "Will be arranged by my boss who is in Prague." "Should we hurry up?" "We're on our way!" "Hello, Dmitri!" "Yes" "Well... our people have said that we can't sign the memorandum..." "Since we..." "we in principle don't..." "We can't get involved in any limitations..." "But listen, this memorandum, first of all it is not legally binding," "It's a gentlemen's agreement." "And secondly there is an important issue about your responsibility." "And it says that if you do not fulfill the clauses the partnership is just canceled." "In other words there are no liabilities." "Well, yes... but its just that..." "Apparently we technically can't sign the memorandum." "All of these materials will be published sooner or later anyway." "Sure they will..." "But it's just a question of who is going to publish them." "It's a question of time and..." "You see, there are most likely some sensitive issues..." "I mean, we are nonetheless..." "An American..." "Maybe that's why." "Well, Radio Liberty is financed by the US State Department?" "By the Congress." "Here is a cable about a meeting that the US ambassador has" "With the governor of Mazar-e-Sharif here in Northern Afghanistan." "This is what the Governor says:" "He let loose with a litany of complaints" "About the Swedish presence in Afghanistan." "He described the relationship to the Swedish military as cold" "Saying that the only times that the Swedish commanders visit" "Are when they first arrive in Mazar" "And when they pay their farewell calls." "Nor did he spare criticism for the Swedish media" "Who he claimed never bothered to talk to politicians" "Or ordinary people during visits to the military base" "And thus only heard positive accounts of its work" "Instead of hearing the views of the local residents." "Then the cable goes on about basically all other Afghani politicians" "Asking that Sweden leaves Afghanistan." "It kind of leaves you thinking, why is Sweden here in that case?" "The right to vote I think is very appreciated." "And the people want democracy." "But it's difficult in a country with so poor education." "And so little experience in democracy to obtain democracy." "My colleagues and I are responsible for this section in Northern Afghanistan." "And we have this special task to find synergies..." "Between the armed forces and humanitarian aid and to cooperate with the army." "To find synergies with the army?" "What does that mean?" "Well, that's a good question." "And we have tried to find an answer to it." "Because this is what the government is telling us to do." "But they are not really explaining what it means." "But what do you think is the purpose of the U.S. military presence in Afghanistan?" "I don't want to speculate on that." "But do you think that there is a risk that your task which might be good hearted and important..." "Is used to bribe the locals to support that which you don't want to talk about..." "To support a military presence, which might be about something completely different?" "I don't know..." "Let me give you a list of projects that we support..." "We also fund the Institute For War and Peace..." "Reporting." "It was lucky that I noticed the mistake." "Hello is the IWPR?" "My name is Johannes, I just got your telephone number from" "Anne Charlotte Malm at the Swedish Military Base here in Mazar-e-Sharif" "We are just heading off towards your office" "Together with Enayat, a local journalist who will help translate." "Alright, see you soon." "When I knew that there was an attack on the United Nations" "I was just driving to the UN compound, in my car" "And when I got there, there was hundreds of people at the UN" "And the police were not letting journalists in." "But I got some information and I sent it to my office in Kabul." "It was a really hard day for me" "Because everyone was calling me to help them." "How does it work...?" "It was very good in terms of finding money." "But in terms of humans who got killed it was a sorrow." "I was very angry and it was sad." "But in terms of the news it was for the first time" "That the UN in Afghanistan came under attack." "There were journalists calling me from London" "From BBC, from CNN" "Asking 'hey we need to hire you for a day'." "Even from Sweden, Aftonbladet." "And then I was telling them I don't have time" "But they were paying very well when I was working for them" "So what do you do then?" "You tell them on the phone what's happening?" "Yeah on the telephone, I was writing on my laptop," "And I was sending them emails." "I earned more than ten to twelve thousand dollars." "You mean per month?" "No, just in a couple of days" "How much!" "?" "Ten, twelve thousand dollars!" "?" "Yes, sending videos, selling videos, selling pictures, text." "Only for two days when I worked with a Swedish guy" "I took three thousand dollars." "Therefore Aftonbladet and everyone is very angry with me." "Why are they angry with you?" "Because I am taking their money." "No they are not angry at you." "They are sometimes angry." " Frontline reporting" " International justice" " Women's rights, Good governance" " Peace" " Democracy" " IWPR" "IWPR makes a difference" "The greatest guarantor of freedom is truth." "We have been working with the WikiLeaks materials" "In different parts of the world, in different countries" "And we are looking for a media partner in Afghanistan." "Somebody who would be interested in taking and" "Working with the WikiLeaks material here." "If you think it is something that you can work with" "Then we would be willing to give it to you." "There is no doubt that you are trusted to work on these stories" "But we have a problem." "The problem is that we ourselves had a newspaper here" "It was a daily paper, with activities in the past years" "And there was a group of journalists that were working for it." "But some people made a plot against them" "And one of their colleagues was sentenced to death." "He is very afraid." "I will sign for the information." "But if you sign it, it means that you will be" "The person that gets the material." "I will be the one." "And then I will give the information to him." "In that case you will be the one in control of the material." "I will be the one, because I can speak English" "If you ever want to be in contact with me I will be available." "He is very old." "The weather is very hot." "It is because I don't understand English..." " He was a communist." " He is a joker..." "And he is very afraid that you are going to plot against him." "No, I am making jokes!" "Let me make another joke... he was a member of KGB." "He was a member of the CIA." "OK, I will put a signature on another paper" "And I will put the name of my organization on it." "It's called Otash." "Fire." "We are Fire." "I was against the governor" "My brother was prosecuted because he was critical of the governor." "I will do this, but I will give the information to him" "In order to help him to use it in his reporting." "Please give the information to Enayat." "Enayat, please sign it." "Hi Julian this is Enayat I am an Afghan journalist" "Based in Northern Afghanistan." "I just met Johannes this morning" "At a ceremony in the PRT ISAF base in Mazar." "I didn't know that..." "However when I heard initially" "That having access to this information would help me" "As an Afghan journalist" "To disclose the faces of warlords" "The faces of those who have committed crimes" "The faces of those who have committed genocide." "But later on when I knew that having these materials" "Could be dangerous" "Since Afghanistan is an insecure country" "And there is no guarantee for the life of a journalist." "Therefore it made me a little bit impressed" "And it made me a little bit stressed." "Therefore I don't know how to deal with this material" "But I know these materials are very important" "In order to help the journalists" "In order to enable them to do their stories" "Because all these documents are a proof." "By having these documents they can do their stories." "One of the most important things for journalists is that" "They are facing a lack of proof and information." "I don't know, I'm still thinking of how to deal with this." "Well, the country that you are in is somewhat unique" "As far as the US is concerned." "We don't quite understand what the risk situation is in your country" "And how much pressure can be" "Meaningfully applied to you and other people." "For example, if you immediately said:" "I have this material." "And you said this publicly in many papers" "And that we're going to show what is really happening here." "And I got this and I don't care" "What the US government thinks about this" "And they can go to hell." "And you said 'and its just me that is doing this" "And no one else'." "That would be a very strong motivation" "For them to crush you." "Yes, as far as I know" "US forces are more than our army by numbers." "It is clear that this is another US..." "In terms of having forces." "And you know they have access to all information" "To every Afghan everywhere." "I'm sure there is some information, there are some reports" "About what the US really wants." "Do they want to continue this war" "In order to have its profits?" "I'm sure that if a group of journalists came together" "We would be able to handle it." "But if it's only me" "I'm sure it's difficult for me." "It's not an easy job." "Here's a cable about the Turkmeni President and Jebediah Bush" "The son of President George Bush Senior." "It's called 'Meeting with the President'." "TX Oil directors, including Jebediah Bush" "The son of the 41st US President" "Met with the President of Turkmenistan." "The purpose of the meeting was to explore possible" "Business opportunities in Turkmenistan's oil sector." "They immediately recognised the emphasis of" "Form over substance in Turkmenistan." "They were both surprised and impressed by the rapid" "Pace of construction in the capital." "The oil directors worked to build a more personal" "Relationship with the Turkmen officials" "In the hope that it would lead to some of the proposed projects." "The presidential meeting was featured on the front page of" "'Neutral Turkmenistan' newspaper on the following morning." "This is the main office of 'Neutral Turkmenistan'." "The main office of the most important newspaper in the country." "Which is founded personally by the President." "Who sent you here?" "Who ah..." "Well, I know what visas are and all that..." "So I'm just curious who sent you here?" "We came by ourselves, I don't know..." "Did you come as tourists?" "Who invited you?" "We have a question that can only be resolved with the help of a local journalist." "Well, you see, I'm not a journalist." "I'm a Member of Parliament." "Yes, but..." "No, no, no." "I'm just explaining who I am." "Since our President is..." "The publisher of our newspaper..." "He appointed me..." "Because..." "Well there is no because, he just appointed me." "When you read about Turkmenistan, you know what they write." "You know it, I know it:" "That Turkmenistan is a country where there is no freedom of expression whatsoever." "That there is no criticism, only love and admiration." "Is that so?" "You know what I respond to that?" "Do you think you are the first person to say such a thing?" "You know what I respond to that?" "I recall that American president..." "In those terrible years of the last century," "Who spoke to his people and said:" ""Smile, god damn you!"" "Don't hang down your head." "Just smile!" "But don't we search for truth in a diversity of opinions?" "Diversity of opinion?" "Look, I'm an experienced man and I'm trying to understand where the truth is..." "I can't." "Do you understand?" "You read this - it seems right." "You watch this - it also seems right." "It seems as though all is confirmed by facts." "But try and solve the puzzle." "Well, that's it." "I'm sorry but I have a... newspaper!" "Why is the president on all of your front pages?" "Is that by law?" "I don't even know how to answer well, you see..." "There is no demand of harsh criticism by journalists." "So you have criticism of the system from the top?" "No, not the system-rather specific workers or organizations..." "That don't fulfill their quotas." "So the journalist is an echo-chamber for the people?" "Obviously it doesn't sound good when you put it that way... but we have other tasks..." "Let me just show you some pictures of our nature." "And you can judge for yourselves." "The desert." "Here it is still in spring," "But it is starting to wane." "Look at all this beauty." "Where else can you see..." "Such amazing canyons." "In the Soviet days I was younger, of course," "All of this was much more interesting." "I lived for journalism." "Now I have settled down." "I choose my topics" "I don't jump on everything." "Now I'm a friend of nature." "It interests me more." "Well, you have to agree that it is more pleasant..." "Than digging around in..." "In... excuse me..." "some kind of shit..." "Trying to prove something to someone." "Sorry for not being contactable for a while" "We've understood that quite a few people have" "Been engaged in our search and rescue mission." "We've had the Swedish Ambassador in London" "And we had the Foreign Ministry in Sweden" "And Dimitry's editors..." "And the former Ambassador to Uzbekistan all engaged." "I think we got them just..." "Oh, and Jan Helin as well..." "It was just at the fail safe point when we pulled them back." "Twenty-four hours and there would have been a public stink." "On the positive side we can give you some small good news" "We were actually deported from Turkmenistan." "Excellent!" "Journalists!" "I think this, this for instance" "Should journalism be lucrative or not?" "Is an issue that is very interesting for us." "But I'm not sure this is the right place to propose it..." "It's not an issue, it's just..." "These particular people we are working with, who the fuck are they?" "Why do they do anything?" "Why would they work with these cables" "Why would they not work with these cables?" "Many of them for money!" "Yes, then this needs to be said!" "They do this for the money!" "Everybody does things for money!" "Why are you judging that?" "Who said that I was judging that?" "You are judging it!" "No, no, no, you are judging that." "This movie is judging that!" "I'm just saying that we need to be concerned" "That we are not going around places" "Saying that we are better than you" "Because I've had the situation and I've fucked off" "And you're still there." "This is what I don't like." "I don't like this approach." "Where have you seen that?" "Well I've seen it when you go to people" "You knock on their doors" "Then suddenly you are WikiLeaks" "And then when they have a strong reaction you're like..." "A strong reaction?" "When they say they won't publish the cables?" "What are we going to do, force them?" "No, you have to call before..." "But why?" "Then you'd get a totally different opinion" "Then you would only get the response that they want to give" "As opposed to showing the audience what they will say" "But do you not think it is an interesting question" "To see if media around the world will do this" "And who will and who won't?" "Do you really not think that is an interesting question?" "Do I think that it is an interesting question?" "No..." "That they are too scared to publish US Government documents" "Is not an interesting question?" "No, even if they are scared there are many other criteria." "What criteria is there other than fear?" "Interest, newsworthy-ness..." "No, no, no, you could write a script..." "Every news organization that has a website" "Has a website developer" "Who can just go, puff like that" "And they get free hits in Google." "It is very, very profitable to publish cables" "Because you don't have to write cables." "It is free stories!" "The point as far as I see it is that" "There are boundaries to free speech" "In the same way that there are boundaries to our thoughts" "And to our language" "And 'newspeak' is basically what we are dealing with" "And these boundaries, they look different in different countries" "But they always exist in either one way or another" "And that is called either censorship or conformism" "Or self censorship or whatever it may be." "We have a unique opportunity to" "Actually just show where these boundaries are" "It doesn't necessarily mean that this boundary" "Is better than that boundary..." "Yes, or every boundary that there is..." "But people are usually unaware of where these boundaries are." "The easiest way of getting hold of them is by asking a person" "And they will say 'well I cannot write about the king'" "Or 'I cannot write about sex' or whatever it may be." "But most often they will lie." "They will not tell you that there are any boundaries" "They will say 'we have no boundaries whatsoever'." "And this is what you will get when you interview any journalist in the United Kingdom" "Or in Brazil, or in Sweden or wherever." "So what we have here are the tools" "For actually catching these boundaries." "If you push any organization, they will have boundaries" "Any organization!" "Yes!" "So what are they?" "All of them..." "What are they?" "Is this being filmed now?" "Are you filming now?" "He is filming now." "Can we discuss things before we film?" "Well, I'll discuss things and you'll see its all very easy." "It's not as suspicious as it sounds." "With the Guardian you've got a paper that's been around for nearly two hundred" "Years." "It is completely solid in its traditions." "It's internationally engaged" "It's at the forefront of digital innovation." "We're doing something that is almost unique in journalism" "There is no one else that looks like us." "I'm very happy to talk, but..." "I just need to establish the..." "So you're talking to me for a film" "Which is documenting..." "We're documenting how we roll out..." "So this is..." "So essentially you're interviewing me..." "Yes." "Something that surprised us" "The Guardian removed, redacted" "A substantial amount of US Government cables" "That we had provided the Guardian." "For example in Uzbekistan, in Tashkent" "The US Government cable said that" "There was a connection between the Karimov family and the Mafia." "But the Guardian version of the cable which was then given to us" "Protects the identity of the mob-boss." "So, why did the Guardian do that?" "I don't remember the document itself so I can't..." "You can speak more generally than that" "I would guess..." "That..." "The libel courts of London" "Have been used extensively by..." "People from the former Soviet Block..." "To protect their reputation." "There's quite a lot of case law built up around that." "Some of these people are very rich" "And can spend millions on fighting cases." "Also, In Kazakhstan there was a cable which said that" "ENI..." "An Italian energy company operating in Kazakhstan" "According to many sources connected to the US embassy was corrupt." "So this is not an allegation against an individual" "Rather an allegation against a company." "In Great Britain, what is the situation?" "The law in Great Britain is that a company can sue." "And two or three years ago" "We were sued by a very large company." "Was that Texaco?" "Tesco." "And that was a classic case where the burden of proof was on us" "And very rapidly we got to easily a million pounds" "In total costs trying to defend that." "So yes, the law in Britain is that companies can sue." "We have a partner in Bulgaria." "They are extremely interested in a cable" "That came out about Bulgaria." "Detailing some of the penetration of the Bulgarian state" "By Bulgarian Mafia." "I have to go at about five past..." "That cable was some five thousand seven hundred words" "The Guardian redacted it down to some two thousand words." "It removed all the names of alleged Mafia members" "And the names of all the companies." "But one name remained, which was the name of a Russian" "Who was the subject of the Guardian story." "There was an unfortunate side effect of this, which was that" "It made this Russian individual look like he" "Was the subject of the entire cable." "From memory..." "We had a kind of rubric at the beginning of the series" "Where we tried to explain what we were doing." "We tried to explain why we had redacted some..." "And again from memory..." "There are difficulties in publishing this" "For among them legal considerations." "If your point is that we could have..." "Been more explicit in explaining" "Both why we were doing things..." "And the nature of the material we were cutting out" "That's probably a fair point." "Were you approached by the British Government?" "Or US Government?" "Before November the 29th?" "We had..." "It was decided that" "The New York Times would approach the US Government proactively." "Separately we had two sets of communication with the American Government" "One was via the Embassy in London" "Who come along to see what we would tell them" "Which was not very much because" "We already had the channel through the NY Times." "The second channel was a phone call setup by the State Department" "But also involving other agencies." "Their primary aim was to discover" "What documents we were going to use." "If you take away the army entirely from a country" "Then wait for ten years" "Will there be a change in the country?" "If there is no change, then you might be able to say" "That the army is actually not a powerful institution." "But we actually know that" "If you take away the entire national defense force" "And wait long enough" "The country will be run over by a neighbour." "And we have this powerful institution" "Powerful enough to set agendas, to set values" "To provide examples of behaviour that is punished" "And behaviour that is approved." "The institution that sets all perceptions of the world" "Other than the ones which you immediately encounter" "And perhaps those of your family and close friends." "A tremendously powerful institution" "Now has competition through a different mechanism." "So there must be change as a result." "To suggest that there is not change as a result would be to say" "That these media institutions themselves" "Had no meaningful power previously." "Good afternoon, you probably have seen either in person or on TV screens" "The State Department briefing that we just finished." "I won't repeat everything I said at the start there but" "The most significant response to what has happened is" "Exactly what Secretary Clinton is doing in Astana, Kazakhstan as we speak." "She is there working constructively on co-operation and security" "In a very important part of the world." "Clearly the unauthorized release of these documents" "Represents risk to the United States and to others with whom we collaborate." "This is why we condemn what WikiLeaks has done." "From Kazakhstan through Russia, into here and through most of the geography in between." "I'm going to interview you as much as you interview me." "And we have followed the path of from the different countries where" "The Wikileaks material has been published." "Only looking from the outside" "Without having any particular knowledge about it" "You get the impression that all these private US institutions" "Have acted from being pressured in one way or another" "By the US Government." "In order to block flows of money..." "No, no that's not true!" "That is absolutely not true." "In my time in government at no time did government tell any private company what to do" "There have been rumors and suggestions of that" "And to be honest there has been no evidence by those who have questioned this." "Companies protect their own reputations" "It's not for the government to tell a company what it should and shouldn't do." "They have taken actions because they they see it as in their interests to do this or that." "But how would you look at it if the same thing were to happen to the New York Times?" "If the New York Times were all of a sudden stopped from getting funds..." "And they would have their offices closed down." " You're painting a hypothetical, but I can't follow it." "You can paint a hypothetical where they are in the exact same position as for example WikiLeaks." "The New York Times decides to publish everything that they get." "No, I mean, there's a very sharp distinction here" "You have two actors who are in the business of communicating with a broader public." "One actor made clear, the New York Times and other publications" "We are going to report on what we have we want to do it responsibly" "And we want to do it in a way that is respectful of" "The danger that this might cause to specific individuals." "And the New York Times voluntarily withheld" "Certain documents and certain names because they recognised as we did" "That the publication of these documents" "The publication of these names would put real live human beings at risk." "Whose street?" "Our street!" "Occupy Wall Street!" "Occupy Wall Street!" "The New York Post sent a very intrepid reporter down there to sleep overnight!" "You spent Thursday night in Zuccotti park?" "I did!" " Live to tell about!" "What was it like?" " It was a scary place" "I mean Zuccotti Park right now is it's own country." "Listen, you're a tough Queens girl right?" "You grew up in Queens, you're not afraid of this stuff." "You went down there." "What surprised you the most about what was going on in Zuccotti Park?" "What surprised me the most about what's going on there is that it's totally lawless." "Did you disguise yourself?" "Did you try to look like a protestor?" "Were you going undercover?" "You weren't advertising that you were with the Post, right?" "When I spoke to people I told them that I was a Post reporter so it was no secret." "And how did they receive you?" "Well... some people didn't really like that I was a Post reporter to be honest." "What's very disturbing to hear though you write from your article" ""The threat of rape is very real here for men and women"." " How did you sleep that night?" " I didn't!" " Too cold?" "Or too many characters?" " Too many characters I think..." "Candis Geovi from the Post, thank you very much." "Hi!" "How are you?" "So like I said, once you start the interview close the doors and don't come out." "It's General Assembly at the United Nations and we have important people coming through." "The UN General Assembly opens this week" "So there's a lot of presidents and foreign ministers" "And some of them troop through here." "Really?" "Is that customary?" "Yeah, it's pretty typical." "When they're in town, some of them invite themselves and some of them we invite to" "Meet with the editorial writers and things." " And how does that usually work out?" " They're usually pretty predictable" "Once in a while one of them makes news but it's good to just give them a chance" "To come over and air their views." " It kind of makes you into an Embassy" " We're the Embassy of the New York Times..." "You may have discovered this yourself foreign news organizations don't always get" "The kind of access they would like to officials in Washington" "If you want to ask the military or the White House to respond to classified information..." "It can be difficult if you're a representative of a foreign news organization." "I think that's a shame, but it's a reality" "So I think they felt we would be in a better position to" "Confront the administration with what we had" "And solicit some kind of reaction from them which turned out to be the case." "And your counterpart, was that PJ Crowley, or some other people?" "The first couple of meetings I think they went over and had them in person" "And there were representatives of the State Department." "I assume the intelligence agencies we there." "I know that the CIA was represented." "I don't remember if the military was there" "Because at that point it was mostly non-military matters." "After the first couple of conversations they just had a daily phone call basically." "There was none of this 'everybody gathered in a room'." "They would say: 'We really think you should hold back this'" "'Particular cable and here is why'." "Then we would discuss it and decide whether to withhold it or not." "In many of the countries where we have been traveling" "Talking to either editors or politicians there has been a concern that" "These materials can have a destabilizing effect." "Did you consider the consequences of publishing them?" "We considered it yeah, and we talked about it a lot." "Yemen is a good example of that because the State Departments argument was that" "These could be destabilizing" "But I kind of think it's not our job" "To decide what is destabilizing or to preserve the stability of countries elsewhere." "Would you have acted differently had the material" "Been of such character that it would have potentially destabilized your country?" "It's hard for me to imagine what that would be..." "You had an example a few years ago" "With the warrantless wiretapping." "Yes." "Can you explain how you reasoned at that point in time" "When you didn't publish the material?" "When I didn't or when I did publish them?" " When you didn't..." " When I didn't publish them..." "The concern wasn't whether it would destabilize our government" "The concern was whether or not it would" "Be of significant value to people who want to attack us." "Had it been your choice and if you were the sole owners of this material..." "You would not have published them?" "The whole thing?" "No." "First of all because there are... in the documents that we posted" "We redacted many names of people who would have been put in danger." "We have not studied all the documents" "To know how many more people might be endangered to post the whole thing I think would be irresponsible." "Let's say you would have redacted the names" "Of those who would have been in danger" "And published it all on your site would that be indictable?" "Probably not..." "But we had decided how to handle the material regardless of the legal consequences" "Just on journalistic grounds..." "And we only wanted to publish..." "Do you need the room?" "You need me or the room?" "I was going to send you a 'hero' gram but then I heard you were in here man" " That was fabulous!" " Glad you liked it." "Oh shit yes!" "It made the Drudge report, so I'm getting a lot of traffic!" "It's been a deep improvement on traffic this morning." "It's not the kind of traffic you necessarily want" "Because a lot of people use the word scumbag." "It's a technical term!" "We're talking about our favourite subject..." "WikiLeaks." "This is Arthur Sultzberger, he is the publisher." "I've just gone back to the writing life" "And my first op-ed column was published this morning" "It was a somewhat... half hearted defense of Obama against..." "Disenchanted liberals." "And you know what the Drudge Report is?" "The Drudge report is a website a very conservative website" "That basically aggregates headlines from all over the place" "But with a kind of right wing commentary." "It's got a huge following." "So, if Matt Drudge, the guy who runs this website..." "Finds something that you've written and puts it on his homepage" "With a snarky comment it drives traffic amazingly." "I mean driving traffic is nice, but the traffic that he drives" "Is mostly you know... 'you scum bag, you idiot'." "But traffic is traffic." "Here it says that in the year 2000 you sent your son to a school in Karachi." "Yes, it was in Karachi." "Does it say that he was ten years old?" "That's wrong, he was eight years old." "And it says that you were on your way to visit your son in the spring of 2001..." "When you illegally crossed the border into Afghanistan" "And were captured by the Northern Alliance because you had no passport" "When they interrogated me in Guantanamo, they asked me how I crossed the border without a passport" "I told them that I didn't have a passport." "But I had a beard." "In 2001 a beard was like a passport in Afganistan." "Then if you had a turban, that was your visa." "Nobody asked for documents." "No, seriously." "That's what I told the interrogators." "And that's the whole truth."