"Okay, this is it." "We're broadcasting on WQTI, streaming on WQTI.org." "The name of our live podcast is Justice Denied." "Our guest is Jeffrey Durning, distinguished heart surgeon, philanthropist, and defendant in one of the most sensational murder trials of the decade." "Jeffrey, thanks for joining us." "Thank you for having me on, Kathy." "Oh, please, give me a break." "You know they can't hear you, right?" "I must admit, I feel a little strange talking to you." "The last time we saw each other was a year ago in the courtroom when I was prosecuting you for killing your wife Beth." "I'm glad you had the courage to re-examine the evidence and come to a more honest conclusion, which is more than I can say for some of your former colleagues." "Yeah, well, if he's so honest, how come you're hiding from us, and telling your story on the air instead of in a courtroom?" "The first trial ended in a hung jury, so tell me, why do you think the Manhattan D.A.'s office is coming after you again?" "Maybe because you killed your wife and you dumped her body from a plane over the Atlantic?" "Obviously, the office has had a series of high-profile disasters." "They're looking for a rich, white man's scalp to make up for them." "Of course, now we have my old friend" "Erin Reagan saying she has new evidence, but like your wife's body, no one has seen it." "Police!" "Come on, out of the way." "Move!" "Get out of the way." "Oh, it looks like we have some surprise guests joining us." "We're gonna take a break." "Where is he?" "Obviously not on the premises." "Oh, my God, I hate these things!" "Aren't they supposed to shut off after three minutes?" "It's an older model;" "I guess the guy didn't get the message he needed to get it fixed." "Or that he needs to move the car for street cleaning." "How long has it been here?" "A couple days at least, right?" "Excuse me, ma'am!" "You know whose car this is?" "Hey, handsome." "What's it worth to you?" "Well..." "My tenant, Harry Clark." "I keep telling him he needs a new car." "I know he can afford it." "Would you have him come down?" "I would, if I'd seen him lately." "Ma'am, do you notice that smell inside your apartment?" "No." "But my nose stopped working years ago." "Too much fun in the '70s." "You know what I'm saying." "Come we come take a look?" "Sure." "Come on in." "Ugh." "Ma'am, can you please wait outside?" "Eddie, he's in here." "Oh, he's ripe." "It's been a few days, huh?" "Oh." "Poor Harry." "Ma'am, I asked you to wait outside." "Aw." "Is this Harry Clark, ma'am?" "Yeah." "Although, come to think of it," "I'm not sure that's his real name." "What do you mean?" "I never saw a bank check with his name on it." "Always paid the rent in cash." "And some of his mail came with different names on it." "Do you have a next of kin we can contact?" "No." "No one ever visited him." "Uh, Eddie, see if you can find some Vicks." "The smell's starting to get to me." "I may have some." "Thank you, ma'am." "We're all set, thank you." "Oh." "Well, if you need me for anything, just call me." "And, you, just call me." "Okay." "Good to see you, Nick." "You're looking well." "Thank you." "You, too." "Thanks for this." "Yeah." "How's the family?" "Good." "Yours?" "Grown up and out." "Your son, kind of a hothead, whatever happened to him?" "Detective, first grade." "Oh." "And the other one, going to Harvard?" "On the job as well, and my daughter Erin works for the D.A.'s office." "It's nice having a family business, huh?" "It is." "You know, Frank, when I heard that you got your father's job," "I was happy to hear that." "They gave it to the right man." "Thank you." "Tyrell Dawes, come on in." "Sit down." "You know why you're here?" "My parole officer said I should come by here, but I didn't have to by law." "This is your Offender Notification Forum." "We hold them for people who just got out of prison with a high risk of going back." "Come on, man, what do you got, a crystal ball?" "You're a gang member who just did three and a half for committing a robbery with a handgun in New York City." "Come on, man." "What do you got, an extra eight-by-ten for my moms?" "Turn it over." "What's "15" mean?" "if you commit another crime with a gun." "And that's a hard number;" "there won't be any pleading it down." "It's up to you, Tyrell." "None of y'all know me." "None of y'al know where I've been or where I'm going." "Yeah, we do." "You want to tell him or should I?" "May I?" "I am here for the same reason that you are, because the commissioner asked me to be here, and because I just finished a 20-year bid of my own in the state prison." "I could still be in that prison." "I killed someone who threatened my family." "Commissioner Reagan, who at that time was Detective Reagan, could've buried me." "But he didn't." "He gave me a fair shake." "So I listened to him." "Man, is this real?" "Every word." "Look at this." "They're all $100 bills." "There's gotta be ten of thousand of dollars in here." "Eddie, I wouldn't be touching that." ""Dear Sandi, I am so sorry about everything." "Maybe the rest of this money will help."" "What's he got to be sorry for?" "Yeah, and who was he?" "♪ Blue Bloods 6x18 ♪ Town Without Pity Original Air Date on April 1, 2016" "== sync, corrected by elderman == @elder_man" "What do we got?" "Four wounded." "One serious and likely to die." "Shootout inside the diner." "One of the rounds went through the front window." "The likely is an Alex Kalamogdartis." "Kala-what?" "I don't know, it's Greek." "Okay, what about the other three vics?" "Two of them were other customers, and the third was a 12-year-old boy walking by outside with his family." "Don't ask me to pronounce his name." "Okay, so we got a gang war at a greasy spoon." "Any witnesses?" "Well, no one's talking about why it jumped off tonight." "We do know this Alex may have had a dispute with the management." "Any actual witnesses to the shooting?" "Not so much." "Hey, boss." "Everyone's saying how it was too dark to see anything." "Too dark in a brightly lit diner?" "Well, they've been renting it out as pop-up nightclub sometimes." "The current owner is over there," "Stavros Constantine." "Hey, Stavros." "Hey!" "Want to tell us what this is about?" "I mean, I have no idea." "We've never had any trouble on club nights before." "Oh, well, can't imagine people shooting your place up if all you're doing is serving moussaka." "Listen, I'm as confused as you are, okay?" "One minute, I'm in the back making sure we got enough champagne for bottle service, and the next, bang, bang, bang, it's all hell is breaking loose." "So you're trying to tell us you don't know anything about this Alex Kala-what?" "...mogdartis." "Kalamogdartis." "Yeah, yeah, of course." "Of course I know Alex Kalamogdartis." "It's like the Trojan War with our families." "What's that mean?" "He's been trying to take over our diner." "Mm-hmm." "But he's been doing that to a lot of local businesses;" "he's a thug." "And you have no idea who shot him." "I'm afraid I-I can't help you." "Can't or won't?" "Okay, well, we're gonna assume that you don't have a cabaret license for this little nightclub of yours, so here's what we're gonna do." "You're gonna get your hands out of your pocket, and then you're gonna take a ride with us." "See if that jogs your memory." "Come on." "So what?" "Now that the supervisors have been and gone, we just have to sit here, safeguard the place until the public administrator comes and starts to try to make inventory of all this?" "Real-life police work, Eddie." "It's not all paperwork and donuts." "You know, we turned over a lot of money yesterday, and there's still no next of kin." "Some of this junk lying around might be worth something." "Bosses just want us to keep an eye on it till things get settled." "Yeah, well, hey, can we open a window, please?" "The guy's gone, but that stink is very much still here." "You know," "Harry must have been hiding from something." "Or someone." "Sounds like he's been locked up in this apartment the last 25 years." "Hey, Jamie, do you remember the New York Benefactors' Trust robbery?" "1992, $21 million stolen." "Yeah, biggest heist in the city's history." "Most of it never recovered." "Keep finding all these clippings that Harry kept about it." "Jamie, you don't think..." "Should we order first or argue first?" "I'm happy to get business out of the way." "We have an arrest warrant for Jeffrey Durning, and I want to know where he is." "What if I told you I don't know?" "Except that he's somewhere in Europe." "I wouldn't believe you." "This isn't about me." "It's about the facts of the case." "Right after the trial," "I started hearing from witnesses that Beth might still be alive." "She was a very unstable woman, Erin." "We are going to retry this case." "We just need him back in custody." "Obviously, you're worried about losing this case in a court of public opinion before it goes to trial." "If you have new evidence, why don't you come on my show to talk about it?" "How about this?" "I have you subpoenaed and brought before the grand jury, and if you don't answer the questions, I will ask the judge to hold you in contempt." "You'll never win." "Classic First Amendment case." "But I don't have to tell you that, do I?" "Good luck, Erin." "I guess I wasn't all that hungry anyway." "But maybe you are." "You weren't 100% honest with us last night, were you?" "What do you mean?" "I think you had more than breakfast, lunch and dinner on the menu." "Alex K is a known drug dealer." "He came to your place with a beef." "Now, you're trying to tell me that if we bring the dogs in, they're not gonna find anything?" "I'm no drug dealer." "I run a family business." "Okay, well, maybe you wouldn't let him sell drugs in your club, and that's why he had a beef." "Come on, help me understand here." "Finally got a couple of witness statements and a photo from a parking lot camera." "Good work." "Hmm." "What's up?" "You know, I'm thinking, if you didn't fire the shots, then you definitely know who did." "Who's this?" "I don't know." "You want to keep your business?" "You're gonna take another look and give me an honest answer this time." "Come on." "Come on!" "Who is it?" "!" "It's my father." "Nick Constantine is hardly a friend;" "I arrested him once." "Not just that." "Your testimony at his trial..." "Was entirely truthful." "And helpful to the defense." "And now that same person was present, arguably with motive, at the scene of a shooting and can't be found." "Am I, in some way, suggesting we give him a head start?" "No, boss." "Then what's your point?" "That old media has handed down the perception that you pulled punches when you testified at his trial." "And two days ago, he was at your side at an Offender's Notification Forum in the role of model ex-con." "I tell you what, you manage the perception," "I'll manage my department." "Less than a month ago, you came out strong against the mayor's Fresh Start program." "This isn't that." "Not your call, all due respect." "You need to distance yourself from the appearance that you've put your eggs in the Nick Constantine basket." "A man does a wrong thing once in his life, in this case, for the right reason." "There is a part of me that believes that there can, in fact, be a chance for a second act in people's lives." "Any idea where he's headed?" "We're tracking friends, cell records and credit cards, but after 20 years, he doesn't have that much of a network to plug into." "Which means he can't be that far." "Let's make it clear that we're devoting all our resources to hunting him down and making sure he pays." "In other words, grandstand before all the facts are in." "Is he even the prime suspect?" "Well, he's more than a person of interest." "Then let's just find him." "Yeah." "Yeah, thanks." "Public administrator's gonna be another day." "They are backed up and understaffed." "Well, Jamie, I just found more cash." "Shouldn't we tell major case this could all be connected to that bank robbery?" "I already put a call in." "It's no longer an active investigation." "All the robbers are either dead or in prison, and the bank went under in the crash of '08." "We got no reason to think that Harry was involved other than the clippings." "This cash could be legitimate." "Well, then where did all the money come from?" "Doesn't look like this guy's had a job in a really long time." "And why all this dog stuff and no dog?" "Hey, we just walked in your apartment, what would we find?" "Some laundry that needs to be folded, couple unpaid bills, maybe something in the DVD player" "I'd rather nobody find out." "Really?" "The Little Mermaid." "Oh." "Jamie, I don't know." "Part of me thinks this could be an integrity test by IAB to see what we would actually do." "Do you know how crazy that sounds?" "Can I help you?" "Officer Jamie Reagan?" "You left a message for me." "About Harry Clark." "I'm Sandi Harper." "This is my grandson, David." "You knew him?" "He was a friend?" "I knew him." "I wouldn't say he was a friend exactly." "He just sent me money." "Mindy, I don't know what this is." "You gave us a statement that Jeffrey told you about killing his wife, and now you're just trying to take it back?" "Jeffrey came to visit me the other night." "At my apartment." "He's still in town?" "He heard that I was helping you and telling you the things that he said about Beth and how she disappeared." "Did he say how he heard?" "It sounded like he had a source that knew people at this office." "He said that I could disappear, too." "Just like Beth." "He directly threatened you?" "He made it clear that it wouldn't be good for me." "He called me his little shark bait." "Like it was a joke." "And then he left." "He thinks you guys will never find him." "I understand you're scared, but we need your testimony." "Otherwise, he's gonna go out and do this to someone else." "Seriously?" "Like this is my fault?" "I tried to tell you people about this before, and you wouldn't believe me." "You tried to tell who?" "The prosecutor who had this case before you." "Kathy Elliott." "Traffic camera last spotted Nick's car at this intersection." "You see anything yet?" "This is it." "This is the car Nick was driving." "Of all the places he could be hiding out, and he chooses a diner?" "Well, it makes sense." "He's probably hungry, doesn't have a lot of cash." "Go with what you know." "Like a married guy who divorces his wife, then marries the same kind of girl." "Shouldn't we call it in and wait for backup?" "No." "We're not gonna let him run out on the check this time." "You go that way." "Excuse me." "I need you to follow me." "Nick Constantine." "How the hell you been?" "Remind me." "Danny Reagan." "Think you know my old man." "Right, Danny." "The hothead." "How you doing?" "Maybe we should talk outside." "Why would I do that?" "Everybody out of the diner." "Let's go." "Let's go." "Come on." "Come on." "You know, Danny, at my age I'm not going back to prison." "We can do this the hard way if you want." "But I think you might've caused enough pain for your family already." "If... if I come with you, quietly... it's on one condition." "I'm listening." "I talk to Frank." "Nobody else." "Just Frank." "I'll see what I can do." "What's the old man doing?" "Talk to him." "I got word your suspect wanted to speak to me." "Yeah, he asked." "And I didn't say yes." "Why not?" "I don't typically offer up the commissioner's time as part of my deals." "I'd like to make an exception in this instance." "Well, since when do you come down here because a suspect asked you to?" "Can't think of the last time I did." "Look," "I know he's your collar, and you certainly don't need my help, Detective." "You're as good as I got, but he was my collar first." "I have to know." "Well, he's in the box." "It might be better if I talked to him in here." "Okay." "Thank you." "By the way, the gun we found on him does match the one used in the murder." "The coffee at our diner used to be the best coffee in the city." "There's no chain places, one supplier for all of the diners in town." "No special bean that comes out of a cat's ass." "I didn't come down here to reminisce about coffee." "Hmm." "Alex Kalamogdartis." "He was not a nice young man, Frank." "Well, he died this morning." "And "not nice" is not grounds for a justifiable homicide, Nick." "Rotten apple from a rotten tree." "Come on, the kid had a record as long as the old man." "I know that." "Tell me what happened." "I got nothing to tell." "I'm at my family restaurant, celebrating my freedom." "In walks the kid." "Hot and bothered, stirring up trouble." "Just like his old man." "Next thing I know, bodies are falling." "Who fired the shots?" "I don't know;" "it was dark, it was crowded, music was loud." "Why do we have this picture of you leaving with the gun?" "I wasn't thinking, Frank." "I panicked when I saw the gun on the floor." "All I could think was I got to get it out of here." "You got a problem, or does the problem have you?" "You trying to cover for somebody?" "Not at all." "Like, maybe you got used to life inside, had it wired pretty good." "You're dead wrong." "I'm not covering for anybody." "Right, and you have no idea who the shooter was in your own restaurant, with your own people around." "Nobody saw nothing." "Where was your boy when this happened?" "In the back." "Who with?" "I don't know." "I gave you the benefit of the doubt once." "You owe me the truth." "I paid my debt to the State of New York." "20 years." "I gave it 20 years of my life." "I don't owe anybody anything else." "Not good enough." "Start over." "That's Harry." "With my late husband David." "Two of them were thick as thieves." "Drinking and gambling every night at the Old Bluff." "Sandi, you said that you weren't friends with Harry, but he kept sending you money." "Why?" "Oh, I don't know." "Maybe he felt sorry for me because I had to raise my grandson on my own." "The child has special needs." "He's smart." "And he was doing well in the program I sent him to." "That school they had him in?" "Full of screamers and head bangers." "How much was Harry sending?" "Are you gonna tell the IRS?" "No." "Never more than ten grand." "Every few months." "Now the program says David can't come back until I pay the next bill." "Sandi, I hate to ask you this, but that's a lot of money for a guy that didn't have a job." "Do you know anything about Harry's involvement in the Benny Trust heist?" "That's where my husband worked." "What did he do there?" "He was a guard." "The guard who got killed in the robbery?" "The bank got their money back from the insurance, and then went under before they paid our benefits like they promised." "Harry was the only one looking out for us." "Did you ever ask where he got the cash?" "No." "But I knew something was eating him inside." "And they always said the robbers must have had an inside tip." "You think Harry was the conduit, because he was drinking buddies with your husband?" "He sure acted guilty around me." "You think he got a cut afterward?" "I don't know." "I needed the money." "For my grandson." "I guess you got a judgment about that, huh?" "I don't know what to think." "So what happens now?" "Hey, Reagan." "What the hell do you want?" "I heard you had my father here." "Yeah." "Well, unless you got something new to offer that you held back on before, there's nothing you can do to help him now." "Wait." "I think you're gonna want to hear this." "Okay." "Come on." "Whew." "We're good to go?" "GPS is working." "We good with the warrant?" "Just in time." "Judge says, "Kathy's her own worst enemy."" "If she wasn't pushing this-- a live video interview to drive up ratings-- we wouldn't have probable cause she was meeting with Jeffrey." "There she is." "Can't believe she's doing this." "She was one of the best trial lawyers I ever worked with." "One thing about Kathy, she was always more about the attention than the case." "Let's go." "Please, don't complain about the driving today." "No promises." "My father's the strongest man I know." "I can never be like him." "Okay." "He did 20 years in state prison, and he never complained about the food." "After being in the restaurant business." "No, he... he deserves to have his life back." "He only just met his granddaughter." "I'm sure this is all going someplace." "When Alex Kalamogdartis came in the other night and started threatening him," "I couldn't take it." "So you're saying you were there during the argument." "Yes, yes." "I'm sorry that I lied before." "Like I said, I'm not as strong as Papa." "Okay, we've moved past that." "So you heard Alex threaten your dad, then what did you do?" "I went, I went and I got my cousin's gun from under the cash register." "And then what?" "And then I just started shooting." "And shooting and shooting and shooting and shooting!" "After it was done," "Papa took the gun and told me to keep my mouth shut." "Okay." "I did it." "Yeah." "I'm gonna need you to write that all down, okay?" "My father's still got a few good years left." "I can't let him go back to prison for something that I did." "You want a lawyer?" "Now?" "Seriously?" "Yeah." "It's my right." "I didn't shoot the kid." "You got no right to keep me here." "You asked for me." "And now you want a lawyer?" "It's done." "He confessed." "Full statement?" "Signed, sealed and delivered." "Good work." "Stavros..." "In English." "Papa, I'm sorry." "Don't do this." " I already did." " No, you didn't." "I shot him, Papa." "He didn't give me a choice." "Take him down to Central Booking." "Yes, sir." "Come on." "Wait a minute." "Wait a minute!" "Wait a minute!" "I don't think you're gonna let him do this, Nick." "You're not a perfect man, but you love your family and you love your son." "It's how it had to be, Frank." "Otherwise, those people were never gonna let us be." "Ready to make a statement?" "Yes, I am." "We got the cuffs on the wrong man." "Nice ride." "Smart." "Jeffrey knew we'd be looking for him at the airfields, so he's all set to get away by land." "Well, I guess looking back, I could've seen the signs." "Beth was always a little flighty." "That was part of the energy that drew me to her." "She started disappearing for longer and longer periods of time." "And then one night, she just didn't come back." "You two, sit down." "And shut that off." "On your feet, Doc." "Come on." "Come on!" "Looks like this interview is over, Kathy." "Jeffrey Durning, we have a warrant for your arrest." "Wait, this is all wrong." "We also have a warrant for your arrest." "For what?" "Hindering prosecution." "You lied to us about where he was, and you're assisting a fugitive." "Wait." "There's something you need to see that changes this whole case." "Oh, really?" "This... was taken in Caracas two days ago by a friend of Beth's." "She's still alive." "Hey." "Hey." "Put the brisket in the fridge." "I got us a bottle of wine;" "we're in business." "Grandpa, do you remember the Benny Trust heist?" "Oh, sure I do." "Happened when I was PC." "We always heard that it was an inside job, but we could never prove it." "Most of the thieves killed each other before they could spend the money." "Why?" "Just a hypothetical, but what if I told you that I found some of the money?" "I'd say forget the brisket, you're taking us to Peter Luger's for family dinner." "Seriously, it's a closed case, isn't it?" "No, the term is "not an active investigation."" "Big difference." "Let's just say a couple of partners stumble on a bundle of cash in a dead man's apartment." "Well, if they take it for themselves, they're out of a job and maybe on their way to prison." "Let's just say though that they've made all the right calls and turns out nobody's looking for that money, but it's clear that the dead guy wanted to leave it to somebody who really needed it." "He died without leaving a will?" "Yeah." "Well, then it goes to the public administrator." "What if they just don't find all of it?" "Well, then these partners have an interesting dilemma." "A few years before the heist," "I was up in the Bronx for the Big Blackout." "The looting was insane." "We were locking up people left, right and center." "Someone had broken the front window of a store that charged the most ridiculous prices." "I saw a lady my age, with three little kids, carrying out a bag full of diapers and groceries." "I looked her straight in the eye... and I let her go." "I made a judgment call." "Every good cop's got to be able to make one." "Not that we're talking about anything real here." "You sure this is okay?" "The public administrators are already done." "You're the closest thing to a family friend." "We're just giving you a chance to pick out some clothes for Harry, for the funeral." "No one else is coming?" "He had no will, no heirs." "Just the letter to you." "So, we'll give you an hour." "Whatever you leave behind goes to the landlady or the-the clean-out company." "Just... make sure you look everywhere-- the cupboards, the closets under the bed." "I'm still not sure about this." "Public administrators got most of the cash that was just lying around." "We both know there's more." "And no one's looking for it." "Sandi needs that money to keep her grandson in that special school." "Just doesn't feel right." "What if someone starts asking questions later?" "Guess you'll have to decide if you're gonna rat me out." "I can't believe you had me arrested on felony charges." "Well, you knew where Jeffrey Durning was and you chose to mislead us and protect him." "The flaw in your argument is that there is no underlying crime." "Really?" "I've given you proof." "You mean that picture from Venezuela?" "It kind of blows the whole case out of the water, Anthony, doesn't it?" "One little problem." "I just got off the phone with the guy in the photo." "He's five-foot-six." "Beth was five-foot-ten." "And in the photo, she's looking up at him." "How's a woman who's four inches taller appearing shorter?" "Obviously, it would be tough." "I'd say." "Doesn't mean I'm wrong about everything." "You're just trying to neutralize me because you're afraid the former prosecutor is gonna make Jeffrey's defense a slam dunk." "What about all the witnesses Jeffrey intimidated?" "Their stories didn't hold up." "Then why did Jeffrey go to Mindy's apartment the other day and threaten her?" "He's worried the truth will come out." "I had no idea he'd done this." "You let your ego get ahead of the facts in this case, and you've been poisoning the jury pool with your podcast." "I thought I had a subject who was innocent." "Is it safe to say that you could've handled things differently?" "I'll give you what I have on Jeffrey from my files." "Bless us, oh Lord, in these thy gifts, which we are about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord." "Amen." "Amen." "Ah, the prodigal son." "Better late than never." "What took you?" "I texted Erin I was running a little behind." "He did." "Where were you?" "Uh, funeral." "Whose?" "Just a guy." "You know him well?" "Uh, no." "Actually didn't know him at all." "Turns out, nobody really did." "What's that mean?" "Means he barely came out of his house or spoke to anyone for 25 years, and passed away without anyone really wondering where he went." "That may be one of the saddest things I've ever heard." "How deep did you dig?" "Didn't really dig, actually." "Just a few days sitting with his stuff and waiting for the public administrators to show." "Did he have something to hide, something he was hiding from?" "No record." "At least not under any of the names that we had." "Well, maybe he never got caught;" "couldn't forgive himself." "Any more of this, and I'm gonna have to go back to church and pray for his poor soul." "Right?" "So you actually went to the funeral for someone you never met?" "Yeah." "Ever done that before?" "Nope." "Just felt like I should." "That's it?" "Yeah, kind of hard to explain." "At least for me it is." "Wow, you give this family half an opportunity, and the questions just don't stop." "Sorry I brought it up." "Nicky, boys, you hear a lot of harsh stories at this table." "I don't think they're harsh." "Cool, maybe." "Okay, ear of the beholder." "But if there's one thing you need to take away from this table, I hope it's that you don't have to be" "Jamie's age, or Danny's or Erin's or mine or Pop's for that matter, to learn to show some grace where it's needed." "To save some grace for strangers even, who find themselves without family or friends." "Or whatever reason got them there." "Will do." "Me, too." "I'll try." "I'd like to think the reward is in the attempt." "Well, the good news is, none of us is ever gonna end up alone." "Not while another one of us is still standing." "And again, amen." "== sync, corrected by elderman == @elder_man"