"My name is Barry Sandler, I'm sitting here with Ken Russell, the.." "director of "Crimes of Passion"." "I wrote the screenplay.." "and we're here to discuss the genesis of the film and.." "how Ken perceived many of the scenes and how we worked together." "Anduh..we 'rejustgonnatake  a look at the movie now." "We started out.. uh.." "with a.. um.." "group therapy session, in which the hero of the movie.." "Bobby Grady.. uh.. comes full circle from beginning to the end." "And did you notice the music is by Rick Wakeman, one of the.. uh.. great English pop.." "Well, he was with a group.." " ..characters. - what was the group he was with originally?" " What did he have?" "God knows, well, he's had his own group for years but.." "uh.. he's.. he's very good at doing symphonic rock or he was." "God knows what he's up to now." " Yeah.." "And um.." "I gave him this theme.. of a.." "Dvorak's New World Symphony." "And.. uh.." "It's vari.. the film is variations, the music in the film is variations on Dvorak's New World Symphony." "And of course, New World released the movie in the United States." " And New World released.." "the movie, but they didn't it know it was symph, symph.." "you know, never heard a symphony, never heard of Dvorak, I wouldn't think." "Anyway, don't forget you said this film was book ended by this therapy session," " Right." " Well don't.." "do you remember that there wasn't one at the end?" "No we had to shoot it." " We.. we had a preview in Chicago." "No.." " San Francisco!" " ..ciso, right." "And the audience wondered what happened to the characters, the two main characters." "And we said.. well, it's not really the point of movie, but.." "Since I.. seemed to umm.." "squash some of their enjoyment, we uh.. thought well.. no harm in um.." "having another therapy session, summing it all up." "Which is what we did." " Yes, yes." "So here's a guy who's um.." "very constrained and very repressed and.." " Yep." "We set him up.." " Yeah, with suburbia, living in American suburbia with his sort of.." " Yeah, yeah." "middle class wife and his middle class children and his middle class house." "Wondering why, you know, he's unfulfilled." "And is about to meet the woman who will change his life." " Change his life." "We're all waiting to meet the woman or man who'll change our life." "Actually, eh.." "Yes, he does." "He also meets a man who changes his life too." " That's right." "Yes!" "Mr. Anthony Perkins." " Indeed!" "Yeah.." "I must say how wonderful Perkins was." "He plays this sort of street priest and uh.." "His clothes looks as though they were slept in." "And indeed, he used to take them home every night, I remember." "And sleep in them probably!" " And sleep in them." "Yes he did!" " Right!" "Ah, there she is!" " Ah, there she is: "Salondie."" "Yes." " Gosh.. what glamor!" "We couldn't use Miss America in this scene.." " No!" "Because, it was copyright, I believe." " Yeah." "Yeah, so what do we call her?" " Miss Liberty!" " Miss Liberty!" "It's better anyway, isn't it?" " Yeah, yeah." "Liberty Bell!" "Now, she's actually sitting in a gynecologist's chair, as any doctor would know." "And she's just about to be.." "sucked off by Grady, isn't it?" "No, well that's later in the movie." "This is just one of her tricks." " One of her tricks, yes, he's really up.." "to his eyes.. in trouble." "Right." "Actually, she's has had a child since then, so that was good practice, wasn't it?" "Isn't that right?" " Yeah.. she did." "But she loved doing these scenes." " She loved them." "And she loved opening her legs.." "I mean.." "And she is great in the movie." " She is wonderful." "I think it's her best film." "I think it's one of my best films and I think it's certainly your best film." " Indeed, it is." "Indeed." "A combined effort." "Now, I think there's a scene coming up, th.. this scene where um.." "there's oral sex coming up." "Oh, it's c.." " It's up later." " No, this it, this is coming." " Yeah, I remember asking her what flavor." "Oh, right the yogurt!" " For the yogurt, whether it was banana or lemon." "Whi.. which was it?" " I think it was lemon." "And I remember that.. when I said, "You know need to give a good hearty swallow."" ""Would you like mussels or winkles?"" "She uh.. slapped my face." "But she was a great sport.." " She was a great sport, she went.. went for everything." " She did went for it." "Yeah, she did go for everything." " And a.." "now this was a special effect." "This man was in great demand after this scene." "He never looked back, but little did the audience know that.." "inside there was nothing but a broom hat.." "A broom handle.." "and.. and I was on the end of the broom handle, giving it a bit of that!" "Ah, hah!" "I can't think what that's doing there now, but I'm sure there was a good reason for it." "A bit of Aubrey Beardsley eroticism." "Incredible it would have been!" "Yes, it would've indeed." " Yes." "Now here we're going to introduce the villain." "None other.." "than.. that's not him!" " That's not him, no." " There we use an extra." "That's not him either.." " That's not him either.." " But we're working up to it." "as you can see.. and..!" "and.." " That's the.. the Invisible Man, no it's not him." "There.. he.. is.." "the one and only.." "Tony.." " Anthony..!" "Give it to me.." "Sniffwise.." "Perkins!" "Now, I got this idea from Munich.." "I don't know if they actually have them here. [?" "] disgusting, so.." "Uh.. so this is intercutting to the protagonists in the film." "And here's a very happy man and uh.." "Now I saw a similar scene in a film," "Um.. not "Weather Report", what was it?" "Um.." ""To Die For"." " Yes." " Where she.." "a similar situation was in hand.." " Oh, right, yeah." " And she was doing the same thing but.." "her lips were as dry as bones." " Oh.. ah!" "You do remember that scene?" " Yes!" "Yeah." " So she was having oral sex with a guy but there was no sign of it." " Yeah." "Well, there you are, that was the lemon yogurt." "You see and the gargle was very good, wasn't it?" " Yeah." "Photographed by Dick Bush, who I used to work with on BBC doing lots of documentaries." "And had a garish look which we uh.. went for really." "In these scenes with China Blue, because the stuff with Grady was a whole naturalistic thing." " Yes, it was." "Yes." "These are heightened." " Yeah." "Also, you know to um.. give it credence, there are neon lights outside the window." "But, it's supposed downtown with a.. in a district with a.." "lots of neon lights." "What accent would that be?" " She had a different accent for each.." "Oh, that's right, for each character she portrayed." " Yeah." " Yes." "Gargling with scotch." "Hmm..." "Worse things to gargle with." "And there he is:" "Pyscho 17!" "That was real um.. whatever it is people sniff." " Amyl nitrate." "Yeah, it was real." " It was real amyl?" "nitrate, huh?" " Yeah, he never uh.." "He's never had such a good time on a movie." " No, no, I know and.." "uh.. we did take after take after take." "At his insistence, right?" " And sniff after sniff!" "I had one sniff once!" "Uh, he said it was to heighten sexual experience, actually um.." "it nearly put me away, for good!" "I never had sex again." "Now this was downtown LA wasn't it or Hollywood, was it?" " Yeah, Hollywood, yeah." "Yeah." " We're these real people or extras?" "'Spose they're extras." " No, they're extras, yeah, yeah." "I had some friends come and be extras for that night." " Right!" "Yeah." " Yeah" " They were used to it though." " Yeah, yeah." "Now here's a bit of Dvorak creeping in on the soundtrack." "Now he was.." "He wasn't going to be a preacher, was he, in your first script?" "No, the first draft, he was a psychiatrist." "A psychiatrist and a film buff, if I remember.." " Yeah." "He had posters, did he not?" " Yeah, yeah and we had lunch that day at uh.." "Uh.. and he answered.." " Here she comes, dynamite!" "He wanted to.. he had done "Equus" on Broadway just played this psychiatrist." " Right." " So he.." "Yeah.." " He came up with the concept of the preacher." " Well, I'd seen.." "I'd seen since I was in America.." "quite a few uh.. shows of those sort of medicine men, preachers, you know." "Full of crap!" " Yeah." "And I.." "I.." "I was amazed how.." "what.. what power they seemed to have over their flock and how.. how.." "and.. and so we changed the character to a typical American Bible puncher." " Yeah." "It was the era of the Jimmy Swaggart.." " Yes, that's right!" "Tammy Faye and Jim Baker and all that." "Yeah." " Yeah, yeah." "The lighting effect is really good." " Yes, yeah." " Yeah." "And all the time, we're getting from the New World symphony." "I think they made some remarks and they weren't very good." "So we cut them out." "No.." "Now this is Grady's place, where he has little business." "Security business, I think." "Yeah, home security." "Right." "Now these two characters: the hero there and his sidekick, his mate, his friend." "We were.." "I.." "I was thinking at one time they should be changing their roles, wasn't I?" "Yeah.. in terms of the actors." "Yeah." " Yeah, yeah." "But I'm glad we didn't, cause uh.." "it turned out to be all for the best." "Bruce is good though." "He's really.." " He's very good indeed." " Yeah, yeah." "Yeah." " And John as well!" "This is John's first movie, actually." " Yeah, I know." "Very good job." " Yeah." "This was a real shop wasn't it?" "At the shopping mall." "It was right uh.. uh mall right off Hollywood boulevard." " Yeah." " Uh.." "Right.." "No, right off Franklin actually." " Right." "Yeah." "Tiny.. at most.. yeah!" "Some of it was done in the studio, wasn't it, and some on location?" "Yeah." " I can't remember what." "Most of it half and half." " Yeah, yeah." "China Blue's bedroom was uh.." "certainly studio." "There you are see." "So you see the actual place outside." "And there she goes, mo.. motoring along." "I remember uh.." "Ruth Myers who designed her dress with me." "We uh.." "we got the design out of a Sears Roebuck catalog." "We can.. copied it exactly as far as remember." "Is this on Hollywood Boulevard?" " Yeah, this.. no!" "Yeah, well it's about down.." " Just the for the fact of it." "East of Hollywood and then we dressed the set." " Yeah." " I remember too." "A good pop!" "Which she's about to get." "Nicely put." "There's the garish lighting." " Yeah, yeah." "Now she's doing the dumb.. dumb blonde bit." " That's right." " Yeah." "Sinister room." "Yes, there's the old uh.." "screen of the.." "Here we are with Dvorak again." "Yeah, a little bit of Oriental eroticism." " Yes!" "And the ratings board uh.." "They didn't cut that out?" " Yeah, they didn't want in there." "Out of.." "I don't know why?" " But uh.." "Anyone, any book shops has those." " Yeah." "In fact, I got them from a local bookshop on Oriental art." "So a kid can wander in a bookshop and see them but he's not allowed to see 'em on the screen." "even for a few seconds." "Whereas in the bookshop, he can pour over them, for hours on end if he wants." "How many times did.. did you have to recut the film to get it down to an R?" "Like about 5 or 6 times, wasn't it?" " Oh, yeah." "Then it was taken away finally and cut by the projectionist and the company lawyer as far as I know." "It looked like it too." "So this is the original." " This is the original, this is your cut." " Yeah." "Perhaps that lighting is good." "I forgotten how good it was." "We've worked on the script for some time." " Yes." "As new ideas came we fed 'em into the.." "And uh.." " Barry Sandler computer brain." "Yeah." "And uh.. it was a great experience and is.. yeah know.." "directors don't respect the written word as.. as much as you do, most directors." "Ah, yeah, but most writers don't write the written word as well." " Well.." "The dialog is brilliant in this." "I mean some of the.." "most brilliant dialog of any film of its type." "It's absolutely fabulous." "And the actors were pretty good about keeping to the script." " They did." "Though I don't think there was any ad-libbing at all." " No." "I don't remember any." "Not them I'm against if it's good." "But they didn't need to because.." "they couldn't do better." "Did you rehearse?" "You didn't rehearse that much with them." " No, I don't.." "believe in over- rehearsing." "It gets stale." "No." " I do really do fine, I mean.." "It's important to work out the choreography of.." "where they're standing, where they're going but.." "to keep on.. especially with good.." "it depends on the actor." "But these were terribly good actors." " Where.. yes, uh.. do you remember how.." "we came to uh.. to get Kathleen." "Remember.." " Well, you showed me.." "I showed you yeah.." " You told me to see "The Man with Two Brains"." " First it was "Body Heat", and you.." "thought she was good in "Body Heat", but the one that sold you was "The Man with Two Brains". - "Two Brains" yeah." " Cause of her ability with comedy." "Exactly, yeah." "I wish she was funnier than what's his name, who was it?" "Steve Martin." " Yeah, I thought she was funnier than Steve Martin, I mean he.." "had to look to his laurels in that film." "She was much funnier, more subtle." "Did you find that.. that we had any problems working on a limited budget.." "with uh.." " Well, I remember on the first day, this was first day I think.." "we fired the continuity girl because the clock.." " That's right. - the clock.." "was at different times." "I can't even see her making clock there now, but.." "so that didn't get off to a very good start." "But it was very low budget film, we couldn't afford the best, could we?" "No." " So working under this sort of pressure then.." "The actors took less than their normal salaries to do it." " Did they?" " Yeah." " Yeah." " Yup." "I think the soundman was stoned and had the sound machine set on um.." "automatic." "Some of the some sound was distorted." "I know we had problems with the.." "But there are technical things you can overcome though in the end." "You can do posting, kind of looping and everything." "The.. the point that um.. you were to do this film." "You had just.." "you've been working on "Evita", for a while, hadn't you?" "And then that.." "Oh, right!" " didn't come together.." " Yeah.." " How did we end up uh.." "how did you end up getting.." "thi started, how did we.." "Well, I don't know." "I'd.." "I think I'd.." "I wouldn't accept the actress they wanted to play Evita.." "that is that one they promised wouldn't go." "And so I withdrew from the project and i.." "I'd come over to see my agent, who'd never got me much work." "And he uh.. gave me, I don't know, about 5 scripts to read on the plane going home." "And I remember the time, I got off Jumbo at Heathrow London," "Uh.." "I got on to him and said we have to do "Crimes of Passion"." "Forget the rest.." "they should be consigned to oblivion but here we got a potential.." "masterpiece.. and uh.." "and he started um.. you know, seeing what he could do." "That's right." "Yes." " Then, did you come to England?" "Well, no, what happened.." "I remember cause my agent had said we were the same agency:" "ICL." " Oh, so we were, yeah." "And my agent had said, "What about.."" "Ken Russell?"" " I said, "What about Ken Russell?" "You crazy?"" "It's like one of the five directors in the world, I would kill to.." "have direct a script a mine." "So uh.. she got to your agent over there that's right and that's how they got.." " Right." "They got it to.." " Yup. - to you!" "And um.." "that's right, that's how it all came together." "Then.. then I came over to England." "Right." " And we did some work.." "there on the script." "And um.." "then back in this country, it was touch and go for a while, because there was a new regime at uh.." "at New World and they were.." " Yeah.. - away, you know.." "they weren't sure if they were going to move forward on it because it was such a.." " Yeah.." "controversial subject." " Yes." "They've must have changed their mind because they did." "Yes we did.. did.." " Then we had the little trouble at the end, didn't we?" "Well, with the ratings you mean." "Yes." " Yeah." "Where's the wine..?" "[?" "]" "Yeah, well I mean the point is they.. they.." "I had the same trouble with "The Devils"." "The company accepted the script, exactly as it was." "Anything.." " We didn't change a thing." "You know, and then they're very surprised when they see it!" "You know on the screen!" " Yeah, yeah." " And the reason is that they.." "they're morons.. they don't understand, they don't.." "they cannot visualize scripts.." "they don't, they cannot.." "they I suppose they read the printed word themselves in their own.." "mundane.. monotonous voices." "They.. they can't.." " No." "realize the reality that can uh.." "that can come off the page." "And so they're always surprised even though they.. they know it backwards." "It's bizarre." "I think we're coming up to the video soon, aren't we?" " Yes, that's right, we are." "That was added.. - afterwards, yeah." "Yeah, I shot in England the video.." "and it's only a truncated version, I think, although this may be longer than.." "than it originally was, I'm not sure." "I must say looking at the film, this is um.." "DB's best work he ever did." "Yeah, oh Dick Bush's work.." " Dick Bush." "Yes, I mean it really is.." "I've forgotten how good it was." "It's absolutely impeccable." "And it's really an interesting contrast seeing these.." "uh.. shots of Grady at home with the naturalism but.." " Yes, yeah, yeah." "Uh.." " A warm mellow sort of.." " Yeah." "instead of the harsh.. reality of.." "whoredom." "So there he is on the phone, getting a job." "That's going to lead him to meet our heroine." " And to a web of mystery." " Oh, yes!" "I thought she was terribly good." "I didn't.." "I could never fathom whether she was really like this or acting like.." "mad or natural." "Which is very good sign." "Annie, yes!" "She's.." " Annie Potts." "Now here comes the video." " Yeah." "My daughter.. both my daughters are in it:" "Molly Russell and Victoria Russell." "Victoria Russell is the bride and Molly is the bridesmaid." "And we shot in England." "With Rick Wakeman, I think he's in it too." " Yes." "Yeah" "Yeah, they're getting ready to.." "see it!" "This actually wasn't in the script, this video, this was.." " Was it not?" "to note.. well it was.. it felt it was.." " What are they doing?" "But it was um.." " Here they go." " Yeah, here we go." "That's my daughter and her boyfriend at the present time." "That was a local estate." "That's my other daughter.." " That's Molly, yeah." " Molly." "And who was the singer?" "An English rock star, I can't remember her name." " Yeah, I can't remember her name." "This is about matrimony and uh.." "there, there was Rick Wakeman!" "I love this shot.." "Pow!" "Ah, that's very good." "There they go." "All materialism consigned to the pool, but the man is after materialism." "And so is the bride." "Now, she's out to save her symbolic.." "loves." "And there he is with his silver." "And there she is with two:" "no birds." "And there's my daughter with two drowned doves." "There they are." " Huh!" " A decent burial." "And then they'll go on watching television for years, wedded to their possessions, you see." "That's the symbolism of it all." " Yeah." "Yeah.." " That's what they see." "And just their hopes turned into tiny coffins on the TV screen." "But he's not getting the message, because he wants a bit of nooky!" "That was shot in downtown LA.." " Yes, it was. - the heart of the uh.." "Was it noisy?" " ..textile." "Um.. not particularly, no." " I think we did them because we wanted.." "the view from the window." " Yeah." " We wanted the realism." "We could've actually painted a black coffin." "Couldn't we?" " Yeah." "Because I remember all offices are always hell to shoot," "Then you have to hide the lights, there's less space, you know got 60 people, standing around the camera and then you got to hide them all, no reflections." "But it uh.." "it worked out all right!" "Oh, yes and here we are with Joanna." " Now this the other side of her, the uh.." "Fashion designer.." " The public persona." "Never guess she was a whore by night, would you?" "I wonder she what enjoyed best." "I have an idea." "I think we did about 20 takes of this, I can't remember why." "Yeah, it was door." " Yeah, because you run it all on one take, I remember it.." " Yeah" "And he fluffed a bit." " Yeah." " Yeah." "Well, an actor's note has to be in one take.." " Yeah. - though I'm sure he could've done it generally speaking it." "The end always got a bit.." "undynamic, I remember." " Yeah, oh, that's right cause he.. he gotta handle the gun." "Yeah, that's right." " Yeah.." " there was a problem with a gun." "Never mind.." "got in the end." "That's another.. the New World Symphony again." "I don't think a symphony has ever been used as theme music like this in a film, has it?" "Uh.." "I can't think.. you're.. you're the expert I would uh.." " Uh.." "Not in uh.. only its symphonic form, not as um.. pop." "I'm the pop style." "I love that building, I've known it in LA for years." "Like um.. - [?" "]" " It's a fantasy castle." "Yeah." " It's a fairy tale castle." " Yeah, yeah." "Which is a fitting place for the heroine to live actually." "And there's our private eye." "Watching her every move." "I can't get over the quality of this, it's really superb." "I've probably never seen it on such good uh.." "you know.. stock before." "Now that book was significant, I can't.." " "The French Lieutenant's Woman"." "Oh, yes!" " Because it's about a man obsessed with a woman.." " That's right." " with uh.." " Yeah. - two identities, yeah." "Now she's going off to work." "And the flute mirrors every drop.." "of urine from his penis." "Which was six." "I counted." "Six drops." "You'd have to reshoot it though." "Now we are downtown again." "Yeah, the music took on like a more dramatic.." " Yeah." "effect." " There's Grady." "She really has the mysterious quality about her." " Yeah." " Yeah." "Now she is ready for business." "Nice little bit coming up with Tony Perkins, I seem to remember." "Oh.. and this black and white." "That's right." " Yeah." " Yeah." "They work so well together, the two." " Yeah, yeah." "They got along well, they were uh.." "Yeah." " Had good respect for each other." "They could've become a great team.." "like um.." "Spencer Tracy and Katherine Hepburn." "Much more interesting!" " Yes!" "I like that line." ""Onward Christian Soldiers".." " Yes." " they're playing, yes." " Uh, huh." "Well, I like her." "A nice little cameo." "They like to know why um.." "you feel the film has developed this kind of cult follower.. why uh.." "It has uh.." " Well, I think.." " endured?" " Well, I think.." "I think um.." "Some of my films, not all, are ahead of their time." "And uh.." "I think if "The Devils" was generally released again in its original form, that would become a cult movie." " You had a uh.." "similar problems with the ratings on "The Devils" too." "Didn't it get an X-rating in this country?" "Uh.. yeah, yeah.. yes." "Yes, religion often gets an X-rating." " Yeah, yeah." "And there rel.. this.. this a religious film in my book." "You see I'm a lapsed Catholic and um.." "I suppose I can't sort of get out of my system, it's all a.." "you know the um.." "the Catholicism is about redemption and.." "it's also about love a lot, you know and uh.." "And I uh.." "I paid a few tributes to it." "I can't remember where it is, a scene later with a nun, isn't there?" " Yes." "Yes" "And uh.. gosh, look at those legs!" "I mean those legs, very good." "And some of the fantasies, I remember um.." "there was one of in partic.." "I rather.." "I think put in.." "myself and that was the air hostess." "Yes!" " You like.. you had a very good line in.. in during that, you know." "There was some more TWA tea." " Yeah and yeah." "Yeah." "And uh.. uh.." "Yeah, I mean those uh.. they don't do it.." "so, yes they do have short skil.. skirts and um.." "and when they bend over in front of you and uh.." "show their G-strings when they're pouring coffee for the next passenger down the list, you know it's.." "I don't know if one supposed to feel any sort of.." "erotic sensations but um.." "I certainly did from time to time!" "That's a great shot where's he uh.." " Yes, a private eye outside the window." "All three of them.." " Yeah, yeah. - right between the two of them." "She's totally unaware he's there." " Yeah." "A lot of the shots, I notice, are almost like metaphorical in a way." "Yes, they are." " The way you've placed these actors in this.." " Yeah.." " this frame." " Yeah." "It's very good dialog." "That's all on the set, isn't it?" " Yeah." "So, tell me, what did you um.." "you know, it's years since we've made the film." "I mean what.." "what point were you trying to make in the script?" "Well, we're really dealing with the.. you know, the hypocrisy and the.." " Yeah." "and the uh.. facades and the fears.." " Yeah. - that people by.." "both uh.. him and his marriage." " Yeah." " Which as is fraudulent and.." "hypocritical as uh.." " Yes." "uh.. the fantasies that they're putting on.." " Exactly, yeah." " it's really common and um.." "and ultimately the morality of the film is you know.." "it's a plea for honesty, to be uh.." " Yeah, yes." "Yeah, absolutely." " To.." "And I.." "I find particularly in this country, I mean I think.." "hypocrisy is sort of um.." "is a common disease the world over, but I really do feel in America in particularly in Los Angeles that the.. everyone wears a mask." "And this film is about, you know, its mask." "It's about the.." "persona that I think we.." "we have to wear.." "to um.. in a way survive because.." "one has to be really tough.. and.." "it's a.. it's a.." "I suppose the easiest way is to be someone else." " Nothing." "Because one is so vulnerable oneself, one.. one knows one.." "doesn't really stand a chance and you can't.." "you can't show yourself to be vulnerable or weak.." "because you'll be trashed and you'll be thought to be nothing." "It'll be taken as a sign of weakness." " Yes." "That's what I feel." "Yes!" "And.. and this is a woman obviously who's very eh.." "insecure and frustrated.." " Yeah." " has been.. had gone through a lot of bad." " Yeah." "relationships which have left her.." "pretty uh.. isolated and alienated.." "and this is her way of achieving whatever false.." "version of intimacy.." " Yeah." " she uh.." "and she can lie to herself about it um.." "I suppose you know, if you do pretend to be someone else, you lose yourself, don't you?" "you lose your inhibitions.." " Exactly." " so.." "and then.. you're.. in a way, you're more honest." " Yeah." "And his character as well that uh.." "he's.. he's a man whose frightened for whatever reasons uh.." "he has, who dons this facade and um.." "and ultimately sees himself in her." "Yes." " He knows that it's too late for him, but that maybe he could save her, so that.." "Yeah - and that in the end of film.." " Yes. - he's.. he's.." "what happens is.. is ultimately a noble act on his part." " Yeah." "And that Grady through the interaction of watching these two." " Yeah, yes." "and the action with her, sees the.. the dishonesty and hypocrisy.." " Exactly." " of his living too.." " Yeah." "and.. and breaks through that." " Yeah." "But it's.. it.. it would only have happened.." "with each of them coming.." " Exactly." " to contact with the other." " Yes." "So.." " Because also within.. with even within the thing, they're still.." "it's facile, it's on top of facile, isn't it?" " Yeah, yes." " Because.." "They're not really.. they're defending themselves and attacking and the.. they're changing chameleon like the whole time." " Yeah, yeah." "This is funny too, because I remember in the very early draft of the script," "I had written a back story for the.." "Tony Perkins character, where he was a.." "shoe salesman, remember, and he spent his days.." "trying on shoes at women's.." "he was at women's feet all day and he needed to assert his power.." "through this facade." " Right, yes." " And you felt, no don't, we shouldn't.." "Um.. specifically.. uh.." "to say what he is or where's he's coming from, but you wanted the audience to more to imagine.." "what his um.." " Yeah, that's right." " his.. his background was." "Right. - which I think is a.. uh.. a smart choice." "Um.. ultimately that uh.." "because he's such a uh.." "a bizarre character, he has a life of his own." " Exactly." "Is there a porno?" " Th.. well.." " It's of a porno movie." " I think.. yes!" "Good material, isn't it something funny." "Of course, these.. these images also show that she's an intellectual, she's.." "Yeah.." " That she's just not just um.." "you know.. um.." "her eroticism, you know, her.." "sensibility.." "Of art and sex, if you like, because that's what she's peddling, isn't in a way?" "I mean she's an artist.." "she's an actre.. you know.." " Yes. - she is.. she's not just.." "and I.." "I know uh.. um.. a call girl in England.." "who um... does.. dresses up as all sorts of things and uh.." "including um.." "Blanche.." "no, not Blanches.." "in uh.." "Scarlett O'Hara in "Gone with the Wind"." " Uh, huh." "and uh.." "you know her.. her customers like to be beaten by Scarlett.." "as they scrub her bathroom floor." "I mean it's a weird scenario, but uh.." "uh.. it's obviously uh.. fulfilling." "Yeah.. well this the whole w.." "we go sort of to the psychology.." " This is honesty, you know, it i.." "I mean.." "I think, do think.." "I don't know in sex that people really do what they want.." "to do with their partner." " Well, it depends how.. um.." "much trust the other has in." " Yeah.." "And.. and again I think a lot of people that by donning these facades.." "not being who you are, you have that ability to.." " Yeah." "to um.. to go all the way in terms of your fantasies." " Yeah, yeah." "You know, it's kind of a release.." " Yeah." " it's kind of an unleashing." " Yeah." "Um.. - and there's an obviously a need to do it." "Th.. th.. it is a release as you say." " Yeah, yeah." "But ultimately, you know I think what the movie makes is that it's.. it's.." "as exciting and.. and. and titillating and provocative as it may be.." "it's still ultimately not satisfying." "Yes." " Not as satisfying.." " Yeah.." " as reaching a kind of.." " But, no.." " honesty and intimacy." " Yeah.." "Yeah.." " What these do characters do.." " Hmm.. - achieve." " Hmm.." "But uh.." "I mean, you know, the movie so.." "is basically an exploration of the psychology of sexuality." " Yes, yeah, yeah." "And I.." "I love how you fr.. just framed these two characters in terms of the their beds." "Yes.." " With her lying in this bed.." " Yeah, yeah." "Totally isolated." " And it's cold, it's a blue light, it's.." " Yeah, yeah. - lonely." "Having just come from Grady who has been spurned by his wife." " Yeah, exactly." "This is very harsh honest stuff.." " Yeah." " Cause, it's uh.." " Yeah.." "it's cold, light of day." " Yeah, yeah." "So this where were.. were presenting him basically a decent.." "honorable guy." " Yeah, absolutely." "See the guy another a chance.." " Exactly." " And um.." "So it's uh.. uh.. purity is about to clash with perversity." " Yeah, exactly." "And we'll see which one wins, right?" " Uh.." "Can't remember whether I.. did I operate this or did Dick Bush?" "There was a lot of stuff, you did operate on.." "on you own." "I don't recall in this scene though." "Um.." " I think I did it all, didn't I?" "It's possible, yeah!" "We were.. we were at this location for a few days, I remember." " Were we?" " Yeah." "Cause we had to shoot out.." "there's one factory that.." " Mmm.." "we'd rent it out.. because we had to shoot out all her stuff there." "Actually, he.. he's better than I thought he was.." "Yeah, he is.. he is good in it." "he's.." "It's a difficult.. in a way, he's got the most difficult role, I think." " Yes, yeah." "Being the straight man, is not always easy, is it?" "It's really.." "Yeah.." " And also being credible and.." "A lot of stuff that was cut, that you cut from a.. the.." "the first cut ran so long that we.." "was taking away with stuff with he and his wife.." "Was it?" "Yeah, because um.." "I think i.." "What was your thinking in doing that?" "Basically.." " Well, I think.." "I don't know, I would imagine, you see, you got the message pretty quickly.." "Yeah.." " You know I mean um.. it was just reiterating the theme.." "of a disintegration." " Yeah." "I know what it was!" "It was a lot of Annie Potts's stuff that.. that.." "came out because.." " I.." "I think her.." "I mean she was meant to be a real pain in the arse and um.. but.." "you know, you can establish that.." "without too many scenes.." " Yeah." "and I think it was sort of um.." "gilding the lily a bit." "There was a scene where's she trying to say, "Well, I've been uh.."" ""I know I've been.. you know uh.."" ""bitchy to Bobby and I.." "I feel badly about it and frustrated and all that.."" "But, I remember at the time we were talking about you said, "Well, you know.."" ""it's really not her movie, I mean"" " No." " "she's there to be.."" " Yeah." "Yeah, that's right." ""the life that he's coming from."" "Yeah.." " And I think she objected to that, didn't she?" "And she wasn't.." "Did we cut it before we shot it..?" " No. - or did we shoot it?" "We cut some of them before we shot it and then we shot it." "And you looked at it and you said, "Right, you know something got to go."" " Yeah, yeah." "Yeah, films have to be a certain length." "Most films are too long." " Yeah." "But, unfortunately you ultimately have to make these choices.." " Indeed." " Um.." "and some certain characters have to suffer as a result." " Yeah." "But I don't think the character suffered as such because.." "you could.." "I mean I don't think his frustration with the sort of life.." "he was leading is.. was jeopardized in any way." " Yeah, yeah." "I mean it's.. it's.." "it's so many people's story, isn't it?" " Yes.. it really is, you know." "and uh.." "not that many people are totally satisfied with it." "They want something else." "They want adventure." " Yeah." "They want excitement." "And why shouldn't they have it?" " That's right." "And you.. you can have it at home." "You know, you can." "But somehow or other, it gets lost." "Yes, you need to make the effort." " Yeah." " Here comes the uh.." "The.. the.." " Oh, the air hostess!" " Yes." " Right." "Yes, you had a good time with that, I remember." "Just ingenious idea doing the airline hostess." "And she.. she.." " My ideal airhostess." "She just loved doing these.. these fantasy sequences, one after the other." "She.." " And she did them so well." " Yeah, she did." "Extraordinary." " I don't know.." "um.. who've could done it better." "Do you?" " No!" "No, I think she did a remarkable job." "I mean not many would do that, anyway, Hollywood stars, would they?" "No, that's what.. it's such a bold and daring performance." " Yeah." "And she was a huge star at the time.." " Yeah!" " to.. to.." "To actually.. - to actually undertake this part was so brave of her." "and uh.." "She.." " I remember she tau.. she too.." "taught us some of the positions." "She won the LA film critics award for this as well." " Yeah." " Yeah." "No, she's.. she's tremendous in it." "Yeah." "You know this uh.. was also a very controversial sequence as.. as we'll see." "that um.." "oh, they had a lot of problems with.." "with the Ratings Board." "But.. but.. we.. you didn't have any problems with the actors shooting these scenes." "No, she was very cooperative as I said we.." "there's a scene in a moment, where shadows go on the wall and uh.." " Yeah." "in var.. various positions, and um.." "she said let's try this one and that one and other one, you know now." "Both Grady and I were rather surprised, I remember." " Yeah." "And what a.. what about him?" "Did you have any problems with him?" "No, no, he would do anything." "What, can't blame him, can you?" "Might never had a cigarette in his life." "And it's very beautiful, isn't it?" "It's um.." "I mean it looks.." "sensual.." " Yeah.." " is the word." " Yeah." "not necessarily erotic but it's very sensual." "Oh, I remember this bit!" "Yeah, we had to get him to wash his feet his several times." "I think.." "I don't think this is being seen now, it's innocuous enough but.." "not too many toe sucking in American movies." " No!" "I don't think so." "I mean it's quite erotic." " Did you choreograph.." "these uh.." " Yeah, yeah.." " beforehand?" " Yeah." "No, we worked.." "yeah, we worked on them." "And was.. did she have a lot of ideas, a lot of thoughts?" " Quite a few." "Yeah." "Yeah, that's an interesting choice of music to.. to underscore on that." "Yeah, the more I see this, the more I'm surprised she.." "how little she seemed to be inhibited." "Yeah.. well, that's to her credit as an actress." "But it was very necessary.." " Yeah." " I mean, it's not gratuitous, I mean.." " Yeah." " Now are these the.." "remember these were the scenes she did.." " Yeah and the strobe lights, yeah." "where sh.. her input was um.." "Now, the reasons we're doing these silhouettes, rather powerful, I mean it really was um.." "creative, artistic.." "reason wa.. was also that the fact.." "you wonder who's point of view it is?" "You know it.. it.. it's.." "When you're seeing an image, you're seeing it from someone's point of view." "and um.." "no one could be in this position, I mean, cause it would be by the window." "But I.." "I got over that, as you'll see shortly." "By a sort of uh.." "it's a sort of cheek, I suppose, but.." "Well you'll see the.. that the reasoning for this position.." "is that the Peeping Tom.." "is on the other side of the wall." "So that's why we were looking at the wall." "Cause on the other side, is none other.." "than the frustrated preacher." "Well, I should uh.." "tell you that uh.." "Ken Russell is no longer with us.." "I don't mean that in the cosmic sense, but uh.. he.." "uh.. had to catch a plane back to London.." "and um.. uh.. so.." "here I am on my own to uh.." "convey my thoughts." "Um.. see that.. that.." "what you just saw is an interesting uh.." "intercut of um.. various.. uh.." "paintings and drawings that.." "that Ken.." "wanted to juxtapose into the film for.." "uh.. either shock value or to make a comment on the blindness, for example on the one you just saw, of uh.. people to the truth, to the reality of uh.." "of.. of their lives and um.." "as.. as obviously uh.. um.." "evinced by these.." "three particular characters." "Um.." "Shayne, the Reverend Shayne." "Perk.." "Tony Perkins is always observing, is always looking, is always um.." "tha.. that's his way of.." "um.." "assimiliating into the world, he's not a uh.." "He's a person who is um.." "uh.. whose.." "weakness and ineffectuality prohibit him from.." "uh.. um.." "being part of.." "society, of humanity." "So he's always looking at things and.." "and uh.. his.." "right now, seeing these two characters.." "um.." "uh.. trying to.." "relate." "Now as we see, these two characters having their problems relating and it's.." "his vision, it's his view.." "of the problems they're having, that allows him to.." "relate to them." "And to see her.." "panic and to see her.. um.." "her need." "That's after, I try to create a um.." "an.. an intersection, an interconnection, an intersection of these.." "all three of these characters." "And now here you see his attempt to.." "uh.. reach out to her." "desperate, pathetic though it may be, but um.." "this is actually is um.." "probably my favorite sequence in the movie." "He's trying to come off as very cool and very wise and knowing." "he's se.. he's just seen her vulnerability and seeing her.." "her own desperation, so he feels.." "a certain power right now." "and um.." "She's just uh.." "her wounds have been exposed, in a way, she's no longer able to play the game, quite as uh.." "as powerfully as she could before, I think Grady has gotten to her, he's.." "penetrated.. something.." "that shell.." "around her and um.." "she knows it and uh.." "she's having uh.." "great doubts." "And now she's uh.." "Oh, this is Ken's favorite uh.." "moment for his favorite fantasy." "Obviously, he harkens back to what we were talking about earlier about the religion and um.." "it's pretty uh.." "pretty outrageous." "But I guess, you know, for.." "to do this movie, the two of the.." "the actors just went for it." "And uh.." "quite uh.. amazingly so." "Yes, now he's revealing a uh.." "one shred of humanity that.." "that he's allowing himself to feel." "And.." "now we're revealing the fantasy within the fantasy on her part." "that she's uh.." "tried to um.." "one up him, in their continual power game." "Yeah, so now he's just been had, so he's.." "he's got to uh.." "get back at her one better." "It's this continuous struggle for power between the two of them.." "that um.." "that increase the tension in their relationship." "This was uh.." "I remember this one of Tony's favorite scenes as well." "We're shooting and he loved uh.." "playing that moment.." "of uh.." "savaging her verbally, exposing her." "In his own twisted way, it.. it.." "it's his ability to relate to her.." "by seeing her.." "vulnerable, because he sees himself in her." "And she's now.." "um.. uh.." "torn between what he's bringing out in her.." "what Shayne is bringing out in her, the truth of her facade and.." "the.. the vulnerability and the.." "and the humanity that Grady is bringing out of her by his.." "his.. attempt to reach out to her." "and she sees at the same time, his own vulnerability and.." "uh.." "China Blue now is seeing herself in Grady.." "just as Shayne saw himself in China Blue." "Uh.. this is a key line." "She said it's a part of my imagination." "She says that.." "well that's.." "And it's just a great performance, you can see how the conflict in her eyes.." "He wanted again.. s.. see her grow in isolation here." "We're just seeing this empty street on a.." "Sunday afternoon." "Seeing the world, that you know, we've.." "we've known as night, now seeing the same world in the.." "raw light of day." "Yeah, there he is ever lurking, ever.. ever uh.." "present.. and uh.." "on the prowl." "As he's sinking deeper uh.. into.." "his own fascination with her.." "into the web of China Blue." "Uh, the lady on the right is uh.." "Louise Sorel, who is uh.." "since then become a very popular uh.. daytime soap opera star." "I believe "Days of Our Lives", she started on "Santa Barbara"." "Uh.. she's uh.." "become quite a uh.." "quite of uh.. major.." "soap opera player." "I had great fun with this uh.." "this scene." "Kathleen had a great time playing it too." "She uh.." "she loved the.." "she always played for the humor.." "in these fantasies which uh.." "and she's very funny." "The humor was uh.. to a large degree a defense.." "and a way of um.. perhaps rationalizing the uh.." "the twisted nature of her activity." "Speaking of twisted, here we have.." "Reverend Shayne." "This was um.. uh.." "Ken didn't want any.. uh.." "overt act of violence in the film." "You notice there's not an act of.. uh.." "of.. you don't see up until.." "the end, you don't see an act of uh.." "bloodshed of.. of uh.." "of murder." "I mean the violence is psychological." "Uh.." "and uh.." "you know, we're living with characters who abuse one each other.." "abuse each other psychologically." "But um.. he didn't.. in.. in the script there was an actual murder, but he really didn't want.." "this to be a.. a film dealing with murder." "This uh.. about the complexity of uh.." "psychosexuality." "So he used that dummy as a.." "kind of a um.." "poetic imagery." "We're going back to the lighting to the.. to the.. visual look of the film." "What Ken was going for in contrasting.." "this garish neon underworld.." "of uh.." "China Blue and Shayne, contrasted with this.." "very kind of bright, naturalistic suburbia.." "that we see in the home of uh.." "of Bobby.." "and Amy." "And uh.." "Donnie and Sheila Hopper, their friends." "uh.. who've come to visit." "Uh.. for a typical barbecue.. uh.." "in the land of suburbia." "and these characters have their own uh.." "verbal sparring and their own attempts to wound the other.." "which are really not all that different from.." "the uh.. conflict of.." "China Blue and uh.." "uh.." "Reverend Shayne." "Ken always preferred the.. the scenes with um.." "uh.." "China Blue and Shayne." "I.." "I think he.." "he really enjoyed getting into that very subversive, very uh.. perverse.." "uh.. arena." "that whole underbelly world." "Rather than this more conventional, you know, naturalism of the uh.." "suburbia." "Unfortunately, one.. one of the elements that was cut from the movie was uh.." "the friendship between the two guys." "They're good buddies dating back from high school days." "Oh, this is an interesting sequence, this uh.." "This is the old HP." "This was uh.. something that uh.." "I recalled.." "in my college days in a fraternity house." "Uh.. they used to do this as kind of uh.." "a stunt and it was something that uh.." "it's quite vivid in my memory." "So, I always thought.. at some point I always wanted to incorporate it into a film." "It fitted well, because it was uh.." "in a way Grady's attempt to relive his childhood or his uh.. his youth.." "um.. by this kind of juvenile act." "Uh.. which um.." "it serves three purposes, it.. it uh.." "it is an act of anger against his wife at this point, because she's so obviously.." "uh.. detests it.. as you can see." "And um.." "and uh.. it is, it's a reversion back to his youth." "It's also uh.." "and obviously in the uh.." "the uh.. phallic uh.." "symbolism here.." "of what he's uh.. going through." "And probably was he's not getting at home, as we're about to find out." "This is an interesting shot, I remember um.." "this is a uh.. five or six minute sequence that's all done in one take." "And um.." "it speaks to the.." "the skill and talent of.." "of Annie Potts and John Laughlin." "They were able to sustain this all in one take." "I remember we shot uh.." "we shot three takes." "And I believe this was the first one that uh.." "that Ken used.. um.." "It was the first uh.. it was the first take." "Ken used the first take." "And uh.." "We see the whole breakdown of their marriage.. uh.. and.." "certainly in the.." "context of their physical.." "the physical aspect of the marriage." "Contained within this one.." "um.." "interaction.. this one uh.." "conflict." "Again, what we were discussing earlier with uh.." "Ken.." "uh.." "that.." "one of the dimensions that missing in the final film is the other side of.." "of the Annie Potts's character and her own frustration and her own.." "um.." "uh.. sense of.." "iso.. isolation and alienation in the marriage which she.." "voices to Sheila in.. in a scene that we had cut from the film." "So does in a way, give a certain.." "balance to her character, so she doesn't come off as a total shrew." "We kind of understand.. uh.." "her own um.. frustration, her own inability to deal with um.." "confrontation and with um.." "her disenchantment with marriage and with her life." "Um.. um.. at one point she even says to Sheila," ""I'm taking it all out on Bobby and I really don't mean to."" "And it does temper that character a bit." "I was sorry to lose it but as.." "we said earlier with Ken.." "you know, when you have two hour and forty minute first cut.." "and you've got to cut uh.. you know, forty-five minutes out of it, something has to go." "And um.." "he felt, I know it's a difficult decision, but he, you know.." "felt big money was on China Blue." "And her relationships with the two men." "And uh.. he felt he really wanted to um.." "focus on that." "Which I felt was a wise decision, but uh.." "unfortunately at the expense of the uh.." "Annie Potts's character." "Um.. and she was so good at those scenes too, so it's.. it's always uh.." "um.. painful to have cut.. uh.. um.." "scenes where actors were so good." "and it did offer that other side to her character which gave the character um.." "another dimension." "It's an interesting lighting effect with the uh.. the leaves.." "coming through the tree." "They're shot in broad daylight on a uh.. on a uh.." "on a soundstage but um.." "to give the night effect." "But uh.." "Ken was.." "trying to give that shadowy image." "To give a certain um.." "sad, almost uh.." "frightening effect, I suppose." "See Grady's now evolving in terms of his uh.." "his attempt to reach out to.." "come to some form of truth and.." "and honesty and uh.." "in his marriage." "And it's thro.. through his interaction with China Blue that it's.." "uh.. allowing him at this growth.." "because of course he sees, you know.." "the uh.. he.. he sees the identity.." "that [?" "] coming through the Joanna identity." "And see the facade of China Blue, so it's through that uh.. that.." "awareness and that um.." "that realization that allows him to uh.." "to open up to her, this way." "You know, in some of the early test screens, the audiences uh.." "very um.." "had a difficult time with some of this dialog because obviously it's very personal, it's very um.." "very strong for uh.." "probably the reason I think, because of the nature of it a lot, people uh.." "there was uncomfortable laughter in certain areas uh.." "and this scene especially." "But on the other day, you know, you're.. you're trying to deal with uh.." "you know, boldness of.. of.. of um.." "of sexuality and marriage, you have to deal with it uh.." "in that kind of uh.." "that kind of impact." "See th.. that here.." "this.. ah.. ah.. admission by her.." "makes sense.." "from the scene that was cut out of the film, but we see that she is.." "coming to the similar conclusion that he is." "Um.." "yeah.. this is.." "She realizes now she's been exposed." "He knows the truth.." "of both her identities." "Sad but raw." "The beauty of her performance is that we.." "we some.." "tension beneath the surface whenever she's Joanna Crane." "Um.. she's this uh.." "tightly coiled uh.." "barrage of.. of frustration and tension and insecurity." "What Ken was saying earlier about her uh.. um.." "proclivity to uh.. to art and to the uh.." "to the art and artwork is manifested in her own apartment." "Ken was very uh.. conscious of the color coordination of her.. her apartment." "We had to change the set a couple of times." "Because he didn't feel it was uh.." "that color coordination really reflected the psychology of that character." "He was very specific, well in most of his films he's very.." "um.. conscious of the texture and the uh.." "and the color schemes and how they reflect uh.." "the people in the scenes." "It's interesting framing of that shot, the two of them from a distance." "And they're both going through their own.." "isolation and the grappling with uh.." "let's see.. the uh.. the fears and needs of intimacy." "To answer the phone, "Joanna Crane", is.. speaks to her.." "the uh.." "her very constrained, very business like.." "approach to uh.." "to her life." "Again, as an avoidance of intimacy." "So a lot of groups, religious morality groups objected to the.. the uh.." "depiction of the break up the family in this movie in that um.." "he's was leaving the family to go off with this.." "woman." "When in truth he.. he.." "It.. it's not about the break up the family, it's about a man coming to terms with.." "with uh.. his own sense of duty and honesty." "And um.." "Uh.. uh.. he's going through a lot of pain in having to cut those ties." "As we just saw in that scene with his son." "Ken had a great time doing that uh.." "that scene with the uh.." "the dummies." "It.. it's pretty spooky." "The shadows and.. and.." "he spent hours trying to light that particular shot within the.." "the elevator, just to get the right effect." "We shall see on the.. with the.." "the Tony uh.. character." "See now, sh.. you see her own.." "growing sense of.. of.. of terror.." "at being discovered now by Shayne as well." "So now both these men that's she uh.." "played these power games with.. these uh.." "uh.. the.. these facades.." "with.. have both discovered the reality of her.." "identity and uh.." "it's now escalating into uh.." "uh.. panic in her part." "She's finally been found out." "But you see, both of these men are trying to reach out to her.." "and that's part of the whole.. uh.." "ambivalence that she's going through that uh.." "they need her, they need her to come to terms with their own.." "integrity." "And uh.. she knows it but she doesn't feel secure enough to be able to.." "to uh.. afford them that at this point in her life." "and uh.." "as a result of her flight from both of them.." "particularly from Shayne.." "she's about to suffer the consequences, but see.." "sh.. now she can't bear to be uh.." "found out, so she must return to her.." "the one thing that gives her strength and.. and security and.." "and um.. power.." "and uh.. at this point of her life, she never's been more in need of that.." "and uh.. sh.. here's a great scene where's she about to reach that uh.." "that part of realization that.. that will manifest itself into this epiphany." "through her interaction with this cop." "In this fantasy which is.." "not played for laughs which is uh.." "life changing for her." "See this is a part of their ritual game, it's obviously.." "something they done before." "And she thinks she now returning to her.." "facade of power, that's she safe but she's not safe." "This whole sequence had to be cut for the um.." "to get an R rating." "Which the studio insisted on, which is uh.." "too bad, because it's uh.." "very much the key to her whole.." "uh.. transformation." "And without this scene in the movie, uh.. you.." "there's no point of epiphany from which to uh.. to change." "And it's one of the injustices of uh.." "the rating systems I suppose, that impose this on filmmakers, having to cut their films to get a certain rating, that she ultimately lose very important character elements." "But you see, I mean.. she's just gone too far now." "I mean she's now taking out all her rage and her frustration and all her need and pain.." "and she's allowed the fantasy to.." "um.. escalate to the point of uh.." "that's it gone too far, it's now gone into the realm of reality which.." "terrifies her." "We were in the script originally, she was going to have a um.." "kind of fit where she just.. you know.." "goes nuts trying to uh.." "expel this rage but uh.." "Kathleen had a very good instinct that she wanted to.." "do something much.." "quieter.." "more internal.." "in the trying to put her makeup and I think this is a remarkable.." "moment for this character and.." "clearly in the performance." "That she just can't bring herself to uh.." "go back to China Blue in a way." "Yet she know she has to yet.." "even that now starts to frighten her, cause she knows she can no longer keep the facade going." "The fantasy has been broken.. by.." "the uh.." "reality of these men exposing her." "And then finally will.. will.." "What will impact on her most profoundly is the sequence she's about to uh.." "experience." "Peggy Feury plays that woman who's uh.." "uh.. she died a few years ago and she's uh.. she was uh.." "a great acting teacher." "Plus a.. plus a lot of remarkable actors studied under her." "Again the way Ken frames that uh.." "that image of China Blue, sitting at the back alone.." "pressed against the back of a uh.. car.." "to convey her uh.." "isolation." "Again, she's called upon to.." "create a fantasy by this.." "by the wife of a man who's dying of cancer who can't .." "cope with the reality of his own life." "So she now has been purchased for him to.." "escape.." "but what happens is.." "going to transform them both." "Gerald O'Loughlin is a terrific character actor who's uh.." "just been in a lot of movies with uh.." "just really through himself into this." "And this is a sequence it was very unsettling for a lot of people because uh.." "for.. obvious reasons, I mean the man is very sick and um.." "you know, the.. the movie is unsettling for a lot of people but um.." "I think it's important to shake people up to achieve certain dramatic points." "She's uh.. trying every fantasy she knows to try to.." "reach him." "Try to turn him on." "Try to move him in some way to responding.." "and nothing's working." "Finally he breaks down.." "and.." "and it's this one moment that finally hits that nerve in her that makes her see.." "the facade that she's been living with." ""Least.. at least you stop pretending", yeah that's the key line." "It's a tough sequence to shoot, I mean it was obviously uh.." "uh.. draining dramatically.." "and it always uh.." "takes it toll on the actors." "a lot of.." "the tension on the set that night I remember.." "but ultimately you know, if the scene works.." "that's all that matters." "Again framing her from a distance." "Yes, now she's.." "facing him as uh.." "Joanna and it's.." "we'll see whether or not she can uh.." "deal with that.." "intimacy." "She can't even face him, notice how Ken has positioned her." "Or maybe it was Kathleen's instinct to position herself that way." "Yeah, she can't even bring herself to face him at this point." "But she wants to, but she's afraid to." "Ken stages a lot of the.." "two actors in one.." "long shot." "It does that consistently throughout the film, this interesting psychological.." "approach to um.." "to their conflict." "The original script, I remember they try.." "to get on here and it doesn't work, she just can't bring herself.." "to do it and um.." "then.. they split up.." "and they come back and the.." "the next time they try it." "But um.." "Ken felt and I think correctly that um.." "that.. that.." "this is where they needed.." "he just felt instinctively that this is where they uh.." "they needed to uh.. connect physically." "As.. is each other, I mean that they.." "which both of them had reached their points.." "in their own uh.." "gross transformations as characters to uh.." "to warrant.." "th.. this kind of um.." "sexual intimacy." "And this is.." "an interesting contrast to the first time they.. they had sex in um.." "the Paradise, in China Blue's room, the Paradise which was.." "very lurid and very graphic and very.." "pure physical, carnal.." "lustful.. sex and this is much more sensual, much more.." "tender.." "and much more.." "euphoric really." "Again the uh.." "the artwork to reflect on the uh.." "you see which Ken added after uh.." "but not that particular shot but.." "some of the artwork were kind of added after we uh.. finished the shoot." "Intercutting it.. and here we see uh.." "Shayne." "Who is uh.. uh.. reaching um.." "the point of uh.." "near breakdown in his own metamorphosis." "Where he's torn between.." "his need for her and his.." "rage at her for rejecting him." "and uh.." "he's about to.." "take it out on.." "her." "That is such a dramatic turn at the end of act two." "I mean both of these characters have.." "uh.. achieved this union and now.." "they've now come to new discoveries about themselves as we'll see with Grady." "As he's.. confronting his wife now." "Who wants him back, however he's a new man." "Obviously uh.." "carrying his own.." "burdens of anger." "This was a little bit a.. more understandable in terms of her.." "her own change.. uh.." "through the scenes that were cut where.." "she was so in conflict with whether to leave him, whether to stay.." "wanting to feel to her own independence, yet at the same time.." "uh.. frightened to.." "and uh.." "wrestling with uh.." "the idea of being on her own and.. and uh.." "living this marriage which clearly wasn't working." "And uh.." "now that she's been on her own, she feels she.." "she can't take it, she wants him back." "But he's uh.. just come to the point where he can't come back to the lie." "Now he's pushing her buttons, her uh.." "her own fears of abandonment." "She's getting very defensive." "Again the framing of that character, I mean uh.. the.." "the uh.. the stance of that character.." "looking away from her, not being able to face her.." "which is um.." "seems to be consistent throughout the film." "That these characters have trouble facing each other." "See, here's a man who's torn between he's uh.." "hi.. his.. uh.." "obligation to his family and his feeling that uh.." "that he's uh.." "got a duty as a husband or father, yet at the same time.." "that China Blue pushed buttons in him, which make him come to terms with his own.." "needs.." "to be uh.. true to who he is." "I don't think he says a word in this scene, I think it's just that we see the torment in his face." "Oh, this a uh.." "interesting moment." "It's one of my favorite moments where he opens it.." "and she's given him a present." "And what is the present?" "It's uh.." "it's an old uh.. football jersey." "Again she's trying to uh.." "rekindle the past and trying to bring it back to a point of.." "happier.." "more deluded.." "happier, more deluded point in their relationship." "But he sees it as an act of desperation, which it is and uh.." "Yeah, John doesn't say a word, it's all conveyed through his uh.." "his attitude and his uh.." "his action." "Closing the book on the past." "Ah, I'm about to.." "have the final confrontation, where these characters rip their souls wide open." "To finally get to the truth." "Ken worked very hard.." "very hard to get the lighting.." "just right for this sequence." "To create the.. the right uh.." "spooky.." "look.." "look at the reflection in his glasses.." "and the different angles to uh.." "try to create terror and uh.." "and fight their own fear." "It's quite uh.. remarkable on Tony Perkins's part.." "this whole sequence because he goes through.." "such a.." "a range of emotions and um.." "reactions and.. and impulses here." "that.. that keeps you.." "guessing what his real motives are.." "which ultimately be revealed but uh.." "See, on the surface it see.. seems that he's being very abusive.." "clearly, but he has uh.." "he has a different purpose." "and um.." "but she doesn't know it yet." "See again, I.. see what the character is.." "is enframed where the.." "the camera is positioned where he's.." "at a distance in the shadows, as the camera moves along with him." "and uh.." "we don't.." "know quite what he's up to.." "but it's interesting in terms of the way he plays it." "I mean we think he's uh.." "certain moments he's very lucid, other times he's mad as a hatter but he's uh.." "he's got a clear set of uh.." "intentions in this sequence." "Yeah, we went through about uh.." "three songs before we were able to get the rights to uh.." "an old standard we finally ended up with this song, which absolutely, you know, works for the sequence." "But um.." "see it was Tony's idea at the point to uh.. to burst into that kind of.." "wild, outrageous melody." "But you're.. never quite sure what he's up to again, here we go." "I love that framing that uh.." "him.. him in the forefront and her standing over him, it's just uh.." "it's just.." "a very powerful image." "First time we showed this movie to an audience, they had no idea what's going on with this scene, where it was headed." "Character going down a long hallway, camera from a distance." "The final.." "intertwining of these three characters now.." "where she's.." "broken through.." "through.." "her interacting with both of these men.." "to her own truth." "And Shayne has sacrificed himself to allow her to do that." "And uh.. now she's free to.." "experience.." "an intimate relationship.." "as herself, as Joanna." "and he now has come to his own growth, as we're.." "about to see." "He's come.." "come to accept his own honesty and.." "his own reality." "This was a sequence we uh.." "went back and uh.." "no, we didn't go back.." "we.. we shot.." "after uh.. the first preview, as Ken indicated earlier.." "that we needed some kind of closure.." "to this character to get a sense of.." "some hope or some future." "Basically, ties things up." "Yeah, I'm not sure if it's going to work out either, but at least it's a first attempt." "The camera now for the first time is moving in on this character.." "as we the see the.." "purity of.." "who they are." "Subtitles by sineinegral @KG."