"Resync'd by dnunes Have fun :)" "(Dr Lemmon) A chimpanzee infant left with his mother is a thing, a lump." "Taken away, he acquires human psychological test performances which are well-nigh unbelievable." "(Stephanie) Nim was born at the primate centre in Oklahoma and I went out there to get him." "I had never been near that many chimpanzees." "It was frightening, intimidating, and I knew Dr Lemmon and his wife were watching me to see what kind of a mother would I be." "Carolyn, Nim's mother, was sitting right there holding Nim, and she knew what was going to happen better than I did." "She had had six of her previous babies removed, apparently, in the same way." "(door opening)" "When the time came to take Nim from his mother, she instantly took on this drama, this feeling of something about to happen." "(chimpanzee screeching)" "And Dr Lemmon shot her with a tranquilising gun" "(chimpanzee screaming)" "And then said," ""Quick, we have to get him before she falls over and falls on him. "" "She was trying to protect him and cradle him." "So, he raced in and got Nim and handed Nim to me" "and said, "Go back." You know, go back in the other space." "He was very dense." "Unlike a human baby that has fat, he was dense and hard." "He didn't struggle." "He didn't try to get away." "He just screamed." "As much as he may be screaming and protesting, he's also clinging." "He was attaching for dear life." "(Herb) Wouldn't it be exciting to communicate with a chimp and find out what it was thinking?" "If they could be taught to articulate what they were thinking about, this would be an incredible expansion of human communication, and possibly give us some insight into how language, in fact, did evolve." "And that's essentially why I started Project Nim." "(phone ringing)" "(Stephanie) I don't know what was in his mind, but he just called." "He was asking me to bring an infant chimpanzee into my home, raise this infant as if he were a child, and see if he acquired language as a function of being part of a family." "(Herb) Stephanie was a former student of mine." "She had a large family of her own children and her husband's children, was exceedingly empathic and warm." "A chimp could not have a better mother." "(Stephanie) I know nothing about chimpanzees, and I never actually sat down to study them" "as one could have." "As I should have, perhaps." "But my appetite and my drive to have that intimate a relationship with an animal was..." "Nothing would have stopped that." "The fact that we could share language with an animal seemed like a very radical possibility at that time." "(Herb) It had been known for some time that chimps aren't able to make the sounds of human language." " Do this, Viki. (blows raspberry) - (blows raspberry)" "So why not teach them sign language?" "The real breakthrough would be if, like human children, a chimpanzee could create grammatical sentences." "So, without much preparation and without really asking permission of my children, my husband, I said, "Fine, I can do it."" ""I even have the funds to do it with." "We don't need to worry about money. "" "And so it was launched." "The experiment was launched." "(Herb) When Nim came to New York, he was barely two weeks old." "The idea was that he would be treated, in every way, like a human infant." "(Stephanie) I had recently moved to a brownstone on the Upper West Side with my three children and with my husband, who had four children, Wer Lafarge." "Wer was a poet and a writer." "He redefined himself, became what, at that time, was called a rich hippie." "A new husband, new family, new house, and I brought Nim into that rather turbulent situation." "(Jenny) It just happened." "There was no family discussion about," ""Should we?" "Shouldn't we?"" "It was just, "Oh, we're having a chimp."" "We're going to teach it sign language." "And then the reality of it is sort of hitting you that it's really..." "You know, it's alive, it's not a doll, it's not a toy, it's not a human, it's a chimp and it's an amazing, sweet little newborn baby, needy creature, so..." "I think I fell in love instantly." "(Stephanie) Nim didn't like Wer." "And Wer didn't like him." "Almost instantly I saw how complicated this was going to be." "(Jenny) I think Wer went along with it." "It was clearly Stephanie sort of saying, "Let's have a chimp."" "It was the '70s!" "(laughs)" "(Stephanie) I breast-fed him for a couple of months." "It seemed completely natural." "Everything was about treating him like a human being." "By the time I had Nim, of course, I felt very comfortable with babies." "I wasn't prepared at all for the wild animal in him and the drive." "By the time he was three months old, I think, and starting to be ambulatory, he was just right there, nothing passive, nothing passive, ever." "I think he figured that he could just get in between Wer and Stephanie on some level." "And Wer put his arm around her, and Nim just, you know, half asleep, having a bottle, turned and bit Wer on the arm quite hard." "He didn't want Wer in the picture." "He wanted Stephanie all for himself." "(Stephanie) Wer definitely felt excluded." "Nim had just become part of my being." "That was incompatible with the role that I played as wife." "(phone ringing)" "(Jenny) "Herb's coming, Herb's coming, Herb's coming. "" ""Herb's coming" was a big deal." "(Herb) I would just go over and visit , just to see what his state was and how he was getting along." "(Stephanie) Herb was infinitely exciting." "I admired his intellect and his goals and his arrogance, all those things." "There was something that didn't sit right with me about him." "(Stephanie) The people that I am the closest to, throughout my life, are people that I have had some period of sexual contact with." "I don't think that the previous sexual relationship between Herb and myself made a difference to the project at all," "other than it was part of the glue that allowed it to happen." "Herb didn't come very much." "He wasn't part of the caretaking package at all." "Young newborn chimps are always raised by their mothers, not by their fathers." "And I didn't see any way of trying to change..." "Or any point in trying to change that." "For better or worse, I never regarded him as a child." "I regarded him as an intelligent, personable centre of a scientific project." "I had an implicit faith that Nim would learn signs." "We had to wait and see." "(Stephanie) How do they start teaching the child to sign?" "Does the child just watch and..." "Whatever." "I don't know." "It was a problem." "We were trying to teach this chimp sign language and nobody in the house really was fluent in sign language." "We would mould his hand into the sign for "drink", which is this, and then give him the bottle to drink." "It just happened." "(Stephanie) It was just amazing." "And I thought, "Piece of cake."" "I was absolutely delighted." "He picked up quite a few signs after that rather quickly." ""Eat", "me", "Nim"" "were part of his first signs." ""Hug" was another one." "And it was as if, then, "Okay, we're off." ""Now we just got to build up the vocabulary. "" "As much as we were moulding him, we were moulding these damn hands and all this stuff, he was starting to mould us." "He knew every dynamic that was in the room, instantly." "(Jenny) He knew when you were upset." "Whatever had happened in, you know, a 13-, 14-year-old's life." "And he would come over and he would just come and sit with you and hug you, and then just kiss the tears away." "You know, it was amazing." "Just unconditional." "(Stephanie) He was my life line, he was my buddy, and he was bringing something out in me, a freedom to defy expectation and authority." "His greatest focus of defiance was against Wer." "(Jenny) He would kind of pull books off the shelves, and Wer liked his books a certain way." "When he saw Wer coming, he would really do it." "It was very focused." "It was intentional." ""Fuck you, I'm touching these."" "It was a problem." "(Stephanie) Wer was so impotent." "I mean, what could he do?" "He'd chase him around. "Drop that!" "Blah, blah."" "I mean, he won every time." "Nim saw Herb as his next adult male challenge." "I mean, that is the life that he's hard-wired for." "To take on increasingly powerful male figures until he's the top." "When Herb would come over, expecting to step in and have control of Nim, and he couldn't and didn't, we loved it." "We loved it." "(Herb) I cornered Nim and just went to pull him out of some" "hiding place, and he bit me." "(Stephanie) Frankly, everybody in the family got a kick out of Nim doing just what Herb hated." "No one ever put him in his place, and he just grew more and more and more powerful," "and that was exciting to me." "We didn't have to try to control him in any way." "In fact, we enjoyed just letting him hang out and see how it went." "(Herb) Stephanie being the kind of mother she was, was not very concerned about discipline." "It was sort of the hippie mentality, and I think what I would tell her would go in one ear and out the other." "(Stephanie) Herb would have wanted a schedule and a structure and charted progress and notes and all of that." "I didn't supply that, I couldn't create that, and I don't think Nim would have thrived in that." "(Laura) I was taking classes at Columbia University and there was a small sign that said," ""Research assistant needed, course credit granted. "" "A man opened the door and he was completely breathless." "Also, he's one of those men who was balding on the top." "So he had his hair pasted down, but he was so upset and dishevelled that his hair was standing straight up on one side." "He explained it was a language project and I immediately understood the scientific relevance." "Nim was going to test the nature-versus-nurture hypotheses that were prevailing at the time." "It really was at the cusp of science." "(Herb) You know, some things are just immediately obvious about someone from the beginning." "You know what kind of person you have." "I think she was 18, if I'm not mistaken." "(Laura) At the time, Nim was in Stephanie Lafarge's house, and my first job was to basically baby-sit." "To go to the house and ostensibly teach him sign language." "She came out of nowhere as a cute little thing from Ramapo." "(Laura) When I got there, I was actually really surprised." "There was utter chaos." "There was nothing." "This was a scientific project." "There were no journals." "There were no log books." "They didn't know who was covering Nim, when they were going to be covering Nim, who would be teaching Nim, when they would be teaching Nim." "They didn't know what they were going to teach Nim." "(Stephanie) She quickly felt her power." "It was completely visible." "Everybody had to adapt to it." "She wanted that mother role." "This animal climbed the walls all day." "He ripped apart Stephanie's house all day." "The kinds of things she was exposing Nim to were atypical." "(Stephanie) He loved driving fast in cars." "He loved motorcycles." "He loved, you know, virtually anything thrilling." "He liked alcohol." "You'd give him a sip and he'd want more." "We gave him puffs on a joint." "We didn't have to treat him like a child." "We could expose him to the sensations that we enjoyed." "I had an instinctive sense that something was very amiss here, that this is not the way you teach a child language or you interact with a child or you teach anything language." "(Stephanie) When Nim began to discover my body, my nakedness, he'd be curious." "Like a child, he was uninterested and then one day he was interested." "I never felt sexually engaged with him." "There was a sensuality, but Nim was, you know, a pre-teen." "(Laura) Stephanie was a graduate student in psychoanalysis." "Her questions had to do with the oedipal complex." "And she was interested in Nim's masturbation and how he masturbated." "I couldn't believe it." "I realised that I could not do what I call good science in Stephanie's home." "It just wasn't conducive to that." "So I set up a classroom at Columbia." "(Stephanie) He's gonna take Nim to school and I realise I'm starting to lose my role as the person who knows the best what he needs." "(Laura) We had to get him in a context that was neutral, calming, soothing." "I just mapped out a teaching plan for Nim and I did it." "(Herb) She was so enthusiastic about this that I made her, in a sense, the director of education, the curriculum." "(Laura) I was feeling good about myself." "Also, I was succeeding with Nim." "I could see I was succeeding with Nim." "I can see it, I can see that no one could hold a candle to me." "The only thing that mattered to him..." "It became more and more tense." "Words, words, words, words, words, word order, word order, word order." "He couldn't see anything else." "Herb started seeing the signs grow on that little graph." "Every day, every other day, every three days." "Laura taught him another sign." "Laura taught him another sign." "And I just went hell for leather." "(Herb) Nim's signing was just almost exponentially increasing." "I was very happy." "Words are a fucking nightmare when it comes to closeness, often." "And here I was, married to a poet, working for a linguist..." "You know, words became the enemy." "She started restricting the times we can come in the house." "She started throwing us out." "She, apparently, was encouraged to believe that she was now the mother." "(Laura) Stephanie began to threaten to take Nim away from Herb." "And Herb started panicking." "I definitely initiated the move out of Stephanie's house." "I think she was initially quite resistant to it, especially since she didn't know exactly how Nim was going to end up." "God had spoken." "That's what had happened." "That's what was going on." "And we didn't have control." "So... my separation from him was just as abrupt, in a way, at that moment, as his was from Carolyn's." "I was ostensibly conscious but I was no less..." "I was as unaware and, you know, un-in charge and helpless as she was." "It..." "It was heart-breaking," "saying goodbye." "(Stephanie) Part of me did not want him to learn language." "He was less with language than he was as his unique self." "(Herb) At that time, a very lucky thing happened." "I was aware that there was an estate that Columbia owned in Riverdale, a very large estate, that used to be the home of the President." "And I went to him with a proposition that if he allowed me to raise the chimp there, I would pay for the heat." "And he said "Sure."" "(Laura) This was amazing!" "This was a fairly tale." "(Herb) It was a 28-acre estate surrounded by lovely gardens." "And that allowed me to put up Nim's teachers in magnificent surroundings and not pay any rent." "Life was good." "(Laura) Nim got out of the car, ran up to the front door, rolled down the hill, and he was gone." "He was free." "So, there was no reaction at having taken him out of Stephanie's house." "He was fine." "And it was like he had been there his whole life." "(Herb) He certainly was a different chimpanzee in this mansion than he was with Stephanie." "So, I sort of got into more, you know, interacting with him." "(Laura) Herb's power as a professor, his age, completely impacted me." "He was my model." "(Herb) We really clicked together." "(Laura) I wanted so much to be a part of his world." "I wanted to be in that world of academia." "(Herb) I had strong personal feelings about Laura, but I don't think that in any way got in the way of our science." "(Laura) Some of the daily bodily requirements that Nim had had to be addressed, and very quickly." "I eventually couldn't handle the diapers any more." "He was getting bigger and he was eating more of our food, so pragmatically I had to get him off those diapers." "I watched his facial expressions when he needed the potty and I began to see it and grab him and bring him to the potty." "(Herb) He did actually use the toilet correctly, but it was certainly not as reliable as what you'd see in a child." "(Laura) The idea was that I would live with Nim and I would train him for a certain period of time in the house, but then I would bring him in every day to Columbia University." "(Bill) This was an experiment to teach or see if a chimpanzee can learn sign language." "I just thought it was really intellectually interesting." "Interesting to understand how much chimpanzees are like us and how much they're not." "At that time he was terribly cute and getting little photos in New York magazine." "There was a daily lesson plan, if you will." "We were supposed to teach these particular signs to Nim and they were supposed to also teach him everyday activities." "Dress yourself, undress yourself, this sort of thing." "(Herb) Like children after they learn a few words," "Nim has spontaneously put signs together." "In many instances we allow Nim to use his own signs, that he almost invents, so long as they're consistent." "For example, this is the sign for "play" that he invented." "He's learning signs rapidly." "They're going up, up, up, up, up." "(Herb) The project was literally humming." "You know, everything was going very smoothly." "I have a chimpanzee who was making history." "We did get a grant somewhere in that time." "(Laura) The project had begun to enter the media, so there was all this excitement and hype about the project." "We were thrilled." "We've probably all seen performing chimpanzees on television or in circuses, but Nim is no ordinary chimp." "Since he was a few weeks old, Nim has lived in a close association with a group of scientists under the direction of" "Dr Herbert Terrace of Columbia University." "They're performing a unique experiment to try to determine whether apes can be taught to communicate with humans using language." "How big will he be when he's full-grown?" "Oh, he's going to be big." "He's going to be about 5 feet tall, perhaps 150 pounds, and supposedly five to six times the strength of a man." "How are you going to be able to handle him then?" "(Bill) He had grown." "I guess he was probably something like that." "If you had to hold him, you really had to hold him." "And he'd gone from being this meek little huggable toy to quite a robust young chimpanzee." "His eye teeth were never taken out, which means that he's got fangs, essentially, sitting here." "Extremely strong jaw." "If you didn't assert dominance in some fashion, you were going to be in trouble eventually." "(Herb) He could size somebody up in two seconds." "Whether they were confident or secretly unconfident." "(Laura) If I stood up too quickly, if I accidentally showed him my back too quickly, if I had food and I didn't think to share it with him, he'd cross that threshold and go into attack." "(Bill) You could tell that he was getting an attitude." "The hair would go up on his arms and he'd sort of get this look in his face." "(hooting angrily)" "When he would bark," "I'd feel it inside, the danger." "He had to lunge." "The contact, the rip, the tear and the release." "And he had to draw blood." "(Herb) She did not tell me that in an alarming manner." "She was just reporting it." "Maybe I was just too looking ahead with blinkers and not wanting to hear that." "This is 37 stitches." "I had four here, nine here." "This one sent me into the hospital." "This one actually was the most dangerous one because he hit a tendon." "(Joyce) It's a lot of work to take care of an animal that's not your species who has that kind of energy level." "I probably didn't know the difference between chimpanzees and monkeys." "So, I was as blind and as ignorant and as naive as probably they came." "I was on a quick learning curve." "I have high energy and enthusiasm for a goal." "And he was my goal, apparently." "(Laura) Joyce was a great teacher." "She signed, she was completely dedicated and motivated." "She wanted to do this." "This was fantastic!" "(Joyce) He bit me really hard, and I bit him on the ear right then and there, and I said, "That's over." "You will never bite me again. "And he never did." "He did like a lot of human body contact." "Typically, when we would leave the property, he would be really attached to you." "The world would scare him, so he would always come close." "Bill and I hung tight with Nim." "(Bill) We sort of hit it off on a lot of our different thinking." "She and I got together as a couple." "(laughs)" "(Joyce) It helped that we liked each other." "And I think that that helped Nim's life because we enjoyed each other's company, so we would do things together and we would hang out as kind of a unit." "Oh, he loved the cats." "(Bill) He was really, really tender with the cat, and he'd hold it, and he sort of liked the feel, the touch." "Something about it." "He would hold her and be like..." "And you could see him, like, shaking because he'd be so excited that he had her." "(laughs) He actually kind of pushed her down on the ground and then curled around her, and just laid there, like, "I'm in heaven."" "(Bill) I would say that it was fairly clear that there was something more going on than the project, at least from his side." "And I think we all felt it and we kind of had..." "I don't want to say resentment, but it was like," ""Oh, jeez, would he stop this Laura thing?"" "If someone showed me some attention," "I thought it meant that they cared for me." "He had power." "I'm sure that, you know, unconsciously I took advantage of that." "Somebody admires you, um, why not..." "So, yeah, we very briefly got involved and he very, very briefly and abruptly got out of it." "The entanglement completely affected my decision to leave." "It's the humans I wanted to leave, not the chimp." "Herb didn't want it to happen." "He went into a very enthusiastic mode of trying to convince me not to go." "I wasn't panicked." "I wasn't panicked that the project was just going to grind to a halt because Laura left." "As I recall, Joyce and Bill pretty much took care of that." "So..." "I didn't lose any crucial aspect of the project." "I started to go to get the boxes to leave, and Nim pulled loose from the person's hand, he climbs to the second floor of the house." "Then he must have lunged 25 feet." "He landed on me." "He took my head and he started pounding it into the pavement." "It took four males to get him off me." "He wasn't my child." "He wasn't my baby." "You can't give human nurturing to an animal that could kill you." "(Herb) One of the easy parts of the project was to advertise for teachers." "It was like, "Uh, this is nice."" "I didn't set out to have women on the project predominantly, but it certainly turned out that way." "And if that's the way it turned out, that's the way it turned out." "(Renee) I was a trained interpreter for the deaf." "When I set my mind to something," "I get what I want." "I kept saying, "I want to live here."" ""When I am moving in?" "When do I get to move in?"" "And I would annoy Herb." "And finally he let me move in." "(Bill) Probably, as time went on, it may have become more difficult for women to work with him." "He was going to take advantage of them and he was big enough and strong enough that he could." "(Renee) I mean, it hurt!" "His bites hurt." "When he bit your hand, he got the nerve." "And you'd get a running shock up your arm." "We had epic battles, but we made up." "He'd make that face and sign "sorry"." "So, "Well, if I sign this, she'll forgive me. "" "I had a relationship with a chimpanzee, and I had conversations with another species." "(Joyce) It's not just him signing that was important to me." "It was what he was thinking and experiencing, because we would talk when we would hang out." "We would talk about the things we would see, the things we would hear." "As far as I'm concerned, our classroom was the house and the yard and the field trips that we would take." "(Herb) Science is a very objective enterprise." "You can't have personal anecdotes of how I worked with Nim up at Delafield as opposed to the classroom." "That's just of no interest to a scientist." "Joyce did not see anything special about the classroom." "Hated it." "Hated it, hated it." "He hated it." "We hated it." "That's not surprising, because she didn't get the results in the classroom that I was hoping for." " Do you know what time it is?" " (man) Yeah." "(Bill) Going into a dungeon of a classroom, which it really was." "I mean, the thing was 15 feet square, including the observation booth and everything else." "No windows, no place really to have any activity." "Trying to get Nim's attention was a bit of a struggle, and he would rather have been been doing something else." "Pay attention to me." "Shh!" "So, this is the sign for "dirty", so we used it for "toilet" for him because it's a contact sign." "He would jump through the signs that I asked him to jump through and then he would have had enough." "And he would say, "I need to go to the bathroom."" "And that's when I knew, you little bugger." "You used that sign because you knew it would make us leave there and get us out of there." "(Bill) He was growing smarter and smarter." "And smarter in the sense of recognising situations that he could take advantage of, of when he could get what he wanted." "(Renee) He was starting to discover himself." "There was a big rock in the front yard and he used to like to hump it." "And we'd say, "You're gonna hurt yourself." "That's a rock."" "Like, look at himself and go, "What's that?"" "As this whole thing with the physicality became an issue, we were much more cautious, I think, about letting the cats around him, and letting him play with the cats." "(Joyce) He would even try to, not engage directly in sexual relationships with the animals, but definitely to bring them to him and to his penis area." "And I just said, "No, that's not what they're there for. "" "(Herb) We realised, I think all of us, that it was becoming increasingly difficult to pursue the experiment." "(Renee) Nim was scratching hard, he was biting harder, biting more often, biting more people." "(Bill) We had mentioned the growing concern that we had about how to deal with Nim." "(Nim screeching)" "Dr Terrace was pretty much an absentee landlord." "(Joyce) Herb was never alone with Nim, and Herb never had to spend any kind of time with him." "Once in a while, you know, photo shoots." "For him to either take photos or for him to have photos taken of him." "(Herb) Yes, there were occasional bites." "I imagine they increased in frequency just because Nim was getting older." "In that sense, he was becoming more chimp-like." "But it didn't seem to be a cause for alarm at that point." "(Renee) It was the end of July, it was July 28th, and Bill had him, and we did the body-to-body transfer." "I mean, you're holding Nim and the other person comes up and you just kind of hand the chimp to the other person." "And I said, "Come on." And I got the tether." "You know, you've got the loop first and I then tied it to my belt." ""Come here." And he came over and he put his arms around me." "He just crunched my face." "It just happened." "And I grabbed Nim and just dragged him into the house." "And he was like, (exclaims) "Sorry, sorry, sorry!"" ""No, no, no." And I passed that armoire with that mirror and saw all this blood." "He had bit through my cheek almost to the inside of my mouth." "It was folded over, so you could see inside my face." "I don't recall if she went to the emergency room, but I think something like that happened." "It was just bad." "I was probably worried that she would sue me, or this would become public, this would become public knowledge about how" "life-threatening the project might be." "They couldn't sew it because of the infection and the risk of infection, so I had an open gaping wound on my face for three months." "And when I got out the hospital, I said," ""You know what?" "I want to see Nim."" "He went... (grunts)" "And he went to reach for my face again." "I went, "Whoa!"" ""That's it." "I don't need closure now." "I'm out of here."" "I was scared." "I'm tenacious and I didn't want to let go." "Sort of like breaking up with a bad boyfriend." "(Herb) I was sorry that it came to that, but you just don't know how Nim is going to change and you just can't count on having outstanding teachers all the time." "I felt I was spreading myself too thinly and experiencing too much stress and not enough, you know, good results." "Nobody keeps a chimp for more than five years, because at five years, they don't know their own strength and they can do a lot of damage to people." "He called us together and dropped the bomb and said, "It's over."" "I was one very angry young woman." "You don't say, "We're not doing this any more."" "And because Herb had that card to play, he played it, 'cause he was in the power seat." "(Herb) I think I said," ""There's no point of this going on scientifically. "" "I felt that Nim had progressed a lot, and we hadn't had the chance to really analyse our data." "I just knew that we had reams of data." "(Bill) This whole mass of data that needed to be organised, and that was going to be a long and tedious process." "(Herb) The fundamental question was," ""Can a chimpanzee create a sentence?"" "I don't think I had any definitive conclusions to that." "We had to wait and see." "(Bill) It's kind of like you're almost there and you feel like there's going to be a conclusion, and it's like, "Okay,"" ""it's over."" "(Herb) I thought that the surroundings in which he was born would provide the most psychological support for Nim." "I felt the basic needs would be taken care of." "(phone ringing)" "So, once I got Bill Lemmon to agree to take him back, that was it." "(Joyce) I hope he'll be okay." "That's why I want to go with him." "I hope that I'll be able to introduce him to his new life but still have an old part of his life with him, namely me." "And he can get used to it and I can fade out and he'll be fine." "It won't just be an abrupt break between old and new." "(Bill) And we get Nim up early one morning, he gets a shot and he's out." "(Herb) I chartered a plane and hired a pilot." "Nim was given tranquillisers to reduce the possibility of his getting out of hand." "If he was tranquillised, he'd be easier to control and not do any damage to the plane, which could be quite dangerous." "(Joyce) So that's how we get him to Oklahoma." "It was just a nasty thing to do." "Very deceitful, I think." "(Herb) The question is, what was going to happen in Oklahoma?" "And I didn't have any sense of that, so, that was my concern." "(Joyce laughing) "Holy shit" was my first thought." "And I think his reaction was "holy shit" too." "Like he knew we were..." "He knew it was bad." "He'd never seen a chimp before, and he was holding on tight." "(screeching)" "You look around, you see cages and you hear the sounds of a lot of chimpanzees." "Would I have envisioned this, when I started on this project, that he ever would end up there?" "No." "It turned out to be a surprisingly more primitive facility than I remembered." "(Bob) Because our cages were cages." "They weren't just a room with a locked door, they were cages." "I mean, it looked like a prison." "A really stark, ugly, dark, dank prison." "(Alyce) They had a chain around their neck with a lock." "Should you get into a bad fight, you could grab the chain and keep them off of you." "It was like prison behaviour." "We had to put up an electric fence around the island because we had had several murders and two suicides." "They'd just push them out into the water, and chimps can't swim." "(Joyce) Dr Lemmon ran the place." "I had an immediate horrible reaction." "He walked around with a cattle prod." "I remember trying to push Nim away, because I knew what he was gonna do." "And Nim is screaming and holding on to me very tightly, and the only reason he let go was because he got zapped with the electric prod." "Come here a minute." "Mac, come here." "Mac, come here." "Come here, come here." "(Bill) The reasoning behind the whole Mac-Nim interaction was that Mac was not dangerous." "(Alyce) He was small, so he was not an aggressive, dominant chimp, so he was the perfect one for Nim to start with." "(Bill) Hey, Mac, uh-uh!" "Buh!" "(interviewer) How did you expect Nim to react to his first meeting with another chimp?" "(Herb) I think what happened was that Nim was very apprehensive about Mac and he took his time and then when he was ready, he and Mac got it off." "I feel very good about this, because I can leave now knowing that Nim has a friend and he's going to worry less about his human companions and have at least one other chimp to turn to." "(Bill) It was time to leave, and that's when I took Nim and put him in the cage." "Sure, I didn't want Joyce doing it, so I just said, "Well, I better go do it."" "I didn't want Terrace doing it." "So, I just decided I was gonna do it." "(chimpanzee grunting)" "(cage rattling)" "You know, we coaxed him down there and then, because he trusted us..." "I just led him in there and took the lead and tied it around the far end of the cage and said goodbye and walked out and shut the door." "(chimpanzees hooting)" "(cages rattling)" "He was sort of hooting and trying to come after me, 'cause he didn't really know where he was." "But I just walked away." "And then when he wasn't looking, he ran out, out the door." "I did feel badly." "I felt in a certain basic sense that was not the right thing to do to somebody, you know, who had been part of my life for so many years, and that I was definitely doing something that he somehow would feel was unjust or wrong." "He had a little doll or something that I think I left." "(Joyce) I strongly believe that we made a commitment to him and we failed." "We did a huge disservice to that soul, and shame on us." "(chimpanzees hooting)" "(Bob) Assumed, I guess wrongly, that Nim was going to come back and he was going to be celebrated in the sense that he was going to be the great signing chimp." "No, exactly the opposite." "Exactly the opposite." "Nim, in the cage, no special treatment, no yogurt, no granola, no..." "None of that." "It was pretty traumatic for the chimp." "They curl up and lay down." "They lose interest in food." "They just..." "It was a bad start with Nim and I." "The chimp is very upset." "And he just looks at me and he jumps and lunges at me and bites through an artery right in here." "I did use a small shock stick." "(chimpanzee screeching)" "He had to grow up and not be a single, spoiled child any more." "So, you got to socialise, work on his "chimpanzee"" "and manners." "Everybody needs a job." "Meaning and purpose." "I had them out, they would help me in the big kitchen where we prepped our food and did stuff, they'd sweep..." "Nim was a compulsive hand washer, he'd do dishes." "Vanessa liked to dust, little Mac liked to clean cages and wear my boots." "This was a special group of chimps." "They weren't ordinary chimps." "You know, they had the capacity for higher consciousness." "(screeching)" "Terrace came back a year later." "(Bob) Herb arrived with still photographers and cameras and that sort of thing." "It was a shoot and it was arranged as such." "(Herb) There was no question that he was very happy that he could see me again." "There was no anger that, "Why did you leave me here?"" "It was just, "Hey, that's great." "I wanna see him again."" "(Bob) You could see that he was like, "Holy shit, I'm going back to New York!"" "It was like that." "Like he was going to be rescued." "It was kind of sad." "(Herb) I played with him, we got into games of signing." "I remember I got him to sign "hug"." "I got him to sign "Herb"." "In fact, I could get almost any sign out of him." "I didn't have to go through a drill." "So, it was a very entertaining, comfortable afternoon." "No bad behaviour of any kind." "(Alyce) At the end of the day, looks at his watch, gives me Nim back, and flies off." "And is gone." "Next morning he barely ate." "He just started to crater." "(Bob) Herb never came back." "I thought, "I'm going to become Nim's friend," ""and I'm going to hang with Nim and we'll see what happens. "" "I mean, there wasn't much I could do for him in terms of the cage, but get him out." "Oh, you saw that, huh?" "See you later, Nim!" "We just liked each other right off, and sometimes it's like that." "Chimps aren't humans." "You have to kind of understand chimps to be able to understand how to work with them and be with them." "I took him out on walks." "I didn't bring food." "I didn't do the kind of things that would interrupt the relationship or the building of the relationship." "He grows on you quick." "He was so charming." "It didn't occur to me that animals had that kind of personality like ours." "(Alyce) And you had to be true of heart." "You had to be true of heart." "If you had dark places in you, they'd know it and they wouldn't like you." "Good morning." "With us this morning is Dr Herbert Terrace, a professor of psychology at Columbia University." "For several years, Dr Terrace was in charge of an experiment where he and several other human beings tried to teach a chimpanzee named Nim the sign language of the deaf." "But now in a book just published, which is called Nim, you're saying, Dr Terrace, that these experiments don't prove as much as you had originally thought they did?" "(Herb) I changed my mind about the data." "I suddenly saw what the key to this was." "Nim was a brilliant beggar." "He learned how to beg and he could work his teachers and always get what he wanted by moving his hands in different ways." "And most of the time he moved his hands in the ways that the teachers suggested." "And the motive for signing was not to say," ""What a nice cat you have over there," but, "I want it."" "(interviewer) When the experiments were over, you returned Nim to the primate colony where he was born." "A year after that you went back for a visit, and we came along with a camera." "You and he are talking in sign language here." "Here we have it in slow motion." "What's Nim saying?" "(Herb) He's saying, "Give Nim banana."" "Why is it that you're saying that he can't speak like a human being?" "Well, a string of signs is not necessarily a sentence." "You can learn a list of words by rote, and that says nothing about your ability to use a grammar." "Aren't you very disappointed that you spent all this time and all this money?" "Well, it would have been very electrifying news, almost like communicating with a creature from outer space, if I could show that another organism could use language the way humans have." " But it didn't work." " It didn't work." "Thank you very much, Dr Terrace." "(woman) I hope somebody can still talk to Nim, in any event." "(Bob) I didn't care about the language argument after a while, it didn't matter to me." "He might not have had sentences or grammar, but there's no question that there was communication going on, and I saw it clearly." "He talked about the trees, the berries that he found." "He liked to play." "Favourite sign, "play"." "(Bob laughing)" "Holy shit, he doesn't know which one to grab." "(Bob) He knew what pot was, or hash, or whatever." "(chuckles) And he wanted to smoke a joint." "Stone." "Smoke." "Now." "When we went out on walks with him, Nim was one of us, and if we smoked a joint, he smoked it with us." "In the circle, we handed it to him." "Chimps are like us, they're hedonistic, they like to do pleasurable things, they like to..." "You know, they like to have fun, and hell, who doesn't?" "(Alyce) And there was something in marijuana..." "They weren't aggressive." "You talk less, you do different things, you enjoy each other." "(Bob) Lily and Nim lived together in the pig barn." "(Alyce) Both of them didn't have many chimp friends, and then they became friends." "They were seen copulating, and we think Nim might have been the father of Lily's baby." "Had the best time in my life, I still say that." "I've never had such a good time." "Except maybe at a Grateful Dead show." "Pretty close." "I don't even know which one I'd..." "Actually, being with Nim..." "I'd rather be with Nim than Jerry, and, for me, that's saying something." "(man) That's real." "(Bob) Yeah, yeah, yeah." "That's a banana?" "Wanna eat the shoe?" "That's a shoe, this is a berry." "(Bob) And that's when Mahoney started showing up." "He was standing around, looking at chimps and writing on his pad and whatever." "When someone..." "When I found out who he was, and I'm sure it didn't take long for me to figure it out, I was..." "Obviously he was checking out the chimps for the lab." "LEMSIP is best known by its acronym, L-E-M-S-I-P, which is Laboratory for Experimental Medicine and Surgery in Primates." "He represented the devil to me." "Most of the work that we did with the chimpanzees, for example, was" "testing various candidate vaccines for, like, hepatitis B, hepatitis C, HIV, AIDS." "I think it's very difficult to fund the kinds of research that I happen to be very much interested in." "It's been difficult to fund social research in general." "(James) We heard about Dr Lemmon's problems, which were financial." "It was finally arranged that, yes, we would take a very large part of their colony." "I thought Lemmon was trying to scare the university." "I thought they would go," ""Oh, gosh, you can't sell them to a medical lab."" ""We've got to do something."" "I thought the community would rise itself up." "Bob and I tried so hard with public appeal for something for the chimps, and there was no response." "And then, shortly after that, the chimps were indeed sold." "(interviewer) Of the chimps that are being sent off to the lab today, how many of them were subjects of the signing research?" "Only one was restricted to signing research." "This is Nim." "(lorry engine running)" "(James) As a chimp, you've got no way of knowing what's happening to you." "You're just suddenly cut off from seeing everything outside." "Suddenly, after a day and a half of constant driving, you get out the other end and you're in another sort of room." "(chimpanzees hooting)" "I wouldn't say they were jumping with joy to find themselves in a new place." "Come on." "Come here." "Come on." "One more time." "One more time!" "(chimpanzee screaming)" "It's over." "It's all right, it's over." "I took on the role of being the one who chose which animals would go into which types of study." "And I hated it." "(James) Spike, Spike, come over here, Spike." "Spike, come on over here." "Come on." "You want to go away with Spike?" "These animals will be used on hepatitis vaccine safety tests." "It is a federal law that before a new batch of vaccine can be released on the American market, it must be tested in four chimpanzees." "There's no way, in all honesty..." "There's no way you can carry out research on animals and for it to be humane." "It can't be humane, because you already put them in a cage." "That was already the first step, and from there on, it's downhill." "(chimpanzees screeching)" "We realised that certain of the Oklahoma chimps could use sign language and were trying to sign with us." "What we did was, we wrote down on sheets of paper, which we posted all over the place, on doors and walls and everywhere we could find, certain signs, and it was hoped that, as time went by," "everyone would pick up at least a certain amount of sign language." "I didn't see" "Nim as special, above anyone else in the group, because they were all going through the same thing." "(Bob) I made a big, big stink about it in every way I could." "I called the press." "We bitched as much as we could." "(Jim) The student Bob Ingersoll, he used to hound me every chance he got, and I would start to get really annoyed." "And then it dawned on me that he was the only one who cared." "Nobody, nobody, except the press, helped us." "(interviewer) Is there anything that you would consider doing to prevent what is going to happen to him?" "Unfortunately, there's nothing I can do because legally Nim is not mine." "Nim was loaned to me for the duration of my project." "That project ran out of funds... (phone ringing)" "(Henry) Somebody at the Boston Globe told me to read a front-page story on that day and he said, "I think you'd be interested," ""and I know you take unusual cases."" "As a human being, I thought it was a kind of esoteric, unique form of animal cruelty, all the worse for that." "And as a lawyer I thought it was just plain illegal." "If the facts are, as I'm being told, that this young chimp was brought up from infancy in a human family, you can't stick him into a little cage in some horrible medical lab and use him for medical experiments." "It's per se animal cruelty." "Early on, I decided this:" "If this animal has been deliberately brought up from infanthood to think of himself as human, then, if I'm going to represent him, I have to treat him like a human client." "Give him his day in court." "(Bob) Henry and I, Mr Herrmann, were in communication pretty much every day." "He used a really cool strategy, actually." "He said, "Hey, this chimp can speak for himself."" ""Let's bring him into court and let him talk."" "What I had ready as a trial exhibit was a steel cage and a couple of strong guys with a pole ready to carry it into court." "And I was going to get Nim to go into a frenzy and signal "out, out, out"." "And I believe the judge said something to the effect that, "I'm not letting a fucking chimpanzee"" ""come in here and make a mockery of my courtroom,"" "or something to that effect." "And that's when I said I'm going to bring, in effect, a habeas corpus petition on behalf of the chimp." "Bring him to court." "Our opponents were pigheaded, but they weren't stupid." "They realised that win, lose or draw, once I got into court, they'd be losing, because even if the judge refused to hear him, the media attention would have been devastating." "And the dean of the medical faculty said," ""That's it, get that chimp out of here."" "Before anything could happen, swooping down, like in some Wagnerian drama, comes Cleveland Amory." "I want this to be a place where those animals that have been abused, that have been misused, will finally and forever have a place that they never will have to fear again." "(Henry) Mr Amory had, up until then, perhaps a well-deserved reputation for doing important work for animal rights." "And he just went and buys the chimp, takes him to his Black Horse Ranch or whatever it was called, and says, "I am saving Nim."" "(reporter) Cleveland Amory to the rescue again." "Nim will live here for the rest of his natural life." "(Marion) "Here my story ends, my troubles are over, and I am at home. "" "And that's what it says as you drive into Black Beauty Ranch." "He was the only animal we ever bought." "And we didn't know a thing about chimpanzees, but we just thought it was better..." "What we could do was better than where he was." "It was never meant to be a home for caged animals." "It is really a home for abused and abandoned equine animals." "That's animals just with hooves." "(Henry) We were aghast that he would just pick up this chimp, transport him to a horse ranch somewhere in the middle of nowhere," "and there was nobody there who knew how to take care of a chimp." "(Marion) We brought him to Black Beauty and built a house for him." "It was a big, kind of a square place and it had a porch outside so that he could go outside, and he had all sorts of toys to play with, but it was solitary." "Chimps are social animals." "And you can't just put one chimp in a box and expect everything to be cool." "Some of the time he was sitting like this, in the corner." "And you just thought, "What is he thinking,"" ""what is he missing, what can we do?"" "Will you please be sure to stop off here in the nation's capital?" "We had a TV down and then he broke that, and then we put one up in the ceiling, and he found a way to get up there." "(chuckling) Well, okay, you don't get a television if that's gonna be your attitude." "(Bob) I wrote letters to Cleveland bitching at him about how leaving Nim there alone was virtually torture." "Not only did they not care what I thought, they wanted me as far away from them as possible." "They wanted to make that pretty clear, and they did make that pretty clear." ""If you come here, you'll be arrested."" "I felt it, you know, and I just wanted to..." "I don't know, I..." "(Marion) He got out a number of times." "What he wanted to do was go in the ranch house, be in the ranch house, be with people, sleep in a bed." "Well, we had a bed for him in his house." "We never slept in the bed in his house." "One time when he came in the house, there was a little white poodle that just barked and barked and barked at this chimpanzee coming through the door." "He just picked it up and swung him against the wall." "He meant to shut the dog up, but, of course, he killed the dog." "There was another time when he went in the house and he picked up a chair and threw it through the window." "This is a very miserable chimpanzee, you know?" "He'd had such a chequered life, he'd gone from here to here to here to here to here." "They should not be taken away from their mothers in the first place." "(knocking)" "(Stephanie) I knew that Nim was there." "I didn't know anything about the quality of his life there." "You heard good things and bad things and so on." "And I thought, why not go?" "(Jenny) So we all flew out to Texas, we go to the ranch, we meet the people taking care of him." "He was alone." "He was the only chimp there." "I happened to be looking at him when Stephanie got out of the car, and he saw her and he recognised her right away, and the look on his face was just," ""Oh, now you come."" ""Now you come." "Now I've been through all this, and now you come. "" "(Jenny) He definitely recognised us." "Whether he was happy to see us, I don't know." "(Stephanie) He wasn't particularly attractive to me now that he was an adult chimpanzee." "I didn't have a," ""Oh, isn't he beautiful," or anything like that." "He was..." "I didn't know him." "My mother decides that she wants to go into the enclosure with Nim." "Which didn't..." "Which happened sort of, "I'm going to go in with Nim."" "We said to her," ""He doesn't look like he's going to welcome you,"" ""so maybe you shouldn't go into his facility."" "I was curious. "Is he gonna sign?"" ""What's gonna happen?" "What's it gonna be like?"" "Stephanie, please don't go in there, he's not in a good mood." "You know, you can tell he's not in a good mood." "(grunting)" "I opened the gate and walked in." "Nim went up to the, like, first-and-a-half storey, something like that, pretty high up." "And I realised how much danger I was in." "(hooting)" "He came down, and then it was a blur." "He grabbed her by the ankle and he starts dragging her, running back and forth, literally like a rag doll, just pulling her back and forth." "I think he's going to kill her." "He was gonna swing her against the wall and then swing her against the wall again." "There was nothing loving about it, he was furious." "(hooting)" "I remember there being discussions about getting the gun or not getting the gun, yeah." "So they got a gun." "No, he's not going to kill her, he's just really pissed off." "(grunting)" "(Stephanie) Things dissipate and he sort of wandered off and I was able to get out a door." "I have no idea how long the whole thing lasted." "The fact that he didn't kill her meant a lot, 'cause he could have." "And he would have been dead, 'cause they would have shot him." "(Stephanie) I had abandoned him, and he had managed to grow up, and I had walked back in as if I had not abandoned him, and he said, "No."" ""This is my space."" ""I'm going to put you in your place, but I'm not going to hurt you."" "We had done so much damage, removing him from what his life should have been." "We exploited his human-like nature without regard to his chimpanzee nature." "We were co-opting him right from the beginning." "It was wrong." "It was wrong." "(Bob) About a year after Nim was sold to the Fund, they purchased a female chimpanzee to be with him." "Around ten years after that, I heard she was in failing health." "I was worried that Nim was going to be on his own again." "That same time I was told that a new guy had taken over the ranch, and his name was Chris Burn." "So I approached Chris about visiting Nim." "Once I met Chris I was really, really reassured that things were going to be much better for Nim." "(man) Look, Nim." "Somebody's come to see you." "Oh, he's got his hackles up." " Hey, it's okay. - (Bob) Hi, Nim." "What's up, bud?" "Nim." "Nim!" "What's up, bud?" "(clicking tongue)" "Yeah, I know, buddy." "Who am I?" "Who am I?" "Hey, who are you?" "Play, play." "Play where?" "Where?" "(Bob panting playfully)" "You are having such a good time." "I said to Chris, "I have a way to help you," ""and I know I can help you to get other chimps," ""so let's work together."" "Buddy, things are improving." "Things are way improving." "It's taken awhile, though." "It's taken a long time." "Hasn't been easy." "(James) On August the 10th, 1995, the Dean of NYU Medical Center announced that LEMSIP would be closed," "and I thought, "I'm going to try and save as many of the chimps as I can,"" ""but in a very quiet way, secretly."" "(Bob) Hey, Lulu." "What's up, girl?" "How you doing?" "(James) That's where Bob came in through the secret network." "(Bob) What's up, Nim?" "Who is this over here?" "Who is this over here, Nim?" "Who is it?" "This is gonna be your new roommate!" "Isn't that nice?" "(Bob) What do you think, Mitch?" "I told you it would be nice, didn't I?" "Jim Mahoney moved literally 50, 60 chimps." "And we did indeed get two chimps from LEMSIP, through Mahoney, to Black Beauty Ranch." "(James) Mitch was a youngish adult male and Lulu was very gentle." "Lulu immediately went to her defence and Nim came over." "Very good, Lulu." "She's so good." "(Bob) Yeah, you're a friend, Lulu." "(James) I think Mitch and Lulu really helped him out enormously." "What?" "Now you're making noises for it." "What's the name of this?" "Nim's." "Nim's what?" "Soda pop, I know." "(Bob) Things were as good as could be expected, based on everything you know that had gone on previous." "Oh, yeah, that's so good, Nim." "Isn't it good?" "It wasn't exactly perfect." "But it was pretty damn good." "(James) Chimps are truly wonderful animals." "They're very forgiving, the vast majority of them." "They'll forgive you."