"David was... a spark." "Um, he was talented..." "He was just a good person and somebody that we all felt a connection to." "We couldn't understand why someone like this had been taken away from us." "It was so strange and surreal that...it was like, one minute he was there at all these parties, and the next thing" "I knew, and..." "my best friend's gone." "We began to become suspicious, because it just didn't seem consistent with how David had interacted with people, he would always share what he was up to, he was very excited about what he was doing..." "Once he disappeared there was everything from, he was visiting family across the country, he was doing" "Hurricane Katrina aid relief..." "It was kind of a shock because we weren't sure where he was, what he was doing, why he wasn't returning any of our calls... and when it came around to school beginning, and he" "wasn't there, that's when we kind of realized that something might not be right." "One morning I woke up, two guys were at my house" "They were woken up at six o'clock in the morning with escorts, telling them, you know, they had five minutes to leave..." "And they were just like, "Hi, Tai...you need to wake up and put clothes on, you're going to a school in the Dominican" "Republic," and I was like, "Psh..." "I don't think so..."" "Both my parents were standing there, you know, saying, "We love you, David, we love you..." I was like," ""Well...what's going on?"" "And I was I was of course, I was like, you know, "That's not gonna happen, how could that happen to me, I'm staying here!"" "And they're like, "No, you have no choice." "You can do this the easy way or the hard way."" "They tied a belt around my waist, um... dragged me with the belt to their car." "We left on Tuesday morning, and... um..." "left the house about eight o'clock... got here about eleven at night." "We went through the airport, they dragging me with the belt the entire time..." "um... flew down to Miami, and then I finally figured out where we were going." "At three o'clock in the morning I had broken out of the bedroom." "Which was not a very good way to start my stay here." "All I can do now is trust God." "Like...just put all my trust in him that something's gonna happen... that something... um... you know, maybe somebody will come for me down here." "Or... they I'll get through and learn what he wants me to learn." "That's me!" "Kate Logan." "Growing up, I was sort of the rebel of my family." "As a teenager, I was the only Evangelical Christian in a house full of liberals." "After high school I attended a Christian college to study film and I did mission work wherever I could...until I found myself in the Dominican Republic, where I learned of a small Christian boarding school that claimed to rehabilitate troubled teens from the United States and bring" "them to know Christ." "So I set out to document the positive effects a school like this could have on the lives of those who seemed to need it most." "I never expected that I would become part of this story." "So, I just got here to Escuela Caribe..." "I..." "I honestly don't know what to expect." "Um..." "I'm excited, everyone seems really friendly... um..." "I guess in a way I'm just hoping for the best..." "I mean I guess I just gotta... have a heart to really seek the truth... and really not be afraid, um... of finding it." "You know, I just pray that my instincts will align with God's, and that I will be able to find the truth and that I'll just have the courage to find it... um... and that I'll have the open-mindedness to" "really listen, um, to really listen and understand people here." "Jesus is calling each one of us here this morning to follow him." "We here at Escuela Caribe, we here at" "New Horizons Youth Ministry will set out a structure and discipline that will help you how to understand how to live your life." "How to restructure and rediscipline this life that is in disarray." "But greater than that, each one of us sitting here this morning in this congregation can praise God that he has set it out and shown us the way." "So what is Escuela Caribe?" "When I have an opportunity to describe Escuela" "Caribe, I tell them it's a Christian therapeutic residential boarding facility." "Ah, now that's a long term for... a place where kids that are just been in trouble can come and get their lives straightened out." "My name is Beth and I have been here for... about four months." "First name is Tai, I'm 16, and I've been here for a year, a month, and..." "like... seventeen days." "My name is David and I've been here for um, it'll be six weeks on Tuesday." "Today's Sunday." "My guess is if my parents have it their way, I'll be going home in May or June." "We can take a child just so far... but there's a spiritual aspect that God has to take over, as those people that are not Christian will not understand what I'm saying but those that do know that a spiritual transformation takes" "place when you do accept Christ, and what you never thought was possible in your life becomes possible." "Tell me more about the founder Gordon Blossom." "Pastor Gordon Blossom...was a juvenile delinquent." "Pastor himself was, uh, spent time as a student as a teenager in Stark Commonwealth, which is a home for boys, residential treatment." "And he really felt called to have a place in a foreign third-world culture, he believed that was an aspect of the therapy and it really is, it's called culture shock therapy." "Taking a kid outside of the environment that they fell secure in and putting in them in another environment where the language is different, the food is different, the whole place is different." "It's an aspect of the therapy that he felt was very significant." "You take a kid out of their normal environment and you do get control, you do get opportunity to work 'em in a different way...because they give that to you because of their uneasiness, their unrestfulness, so there's a" "variety of things that works with that." "Usually by the time a parent gets to this point in their lives, it's gotta be pretty bad at home." "It's gotta be pretty... um..." "intense... and... so, by the time they're getting to the point where they feel they need to send their child away for eighteen to twenty-four months, they're usually ready to go at that time." "Um, I tend to tell myself that I'm just here for school." "Except, I'm not." "Uh, I started having panic attacks in October of '05 and it got to be where I'd have three a day, end up in the hospital for whatever reason and, um, I got because of that I got really frustrated with my school 'cuz" "it would get to be where, um, I couldn't be in the class for the whole entire period, or like I'd have to leave 'cuz I would get stressed out or I might have a panic attack and it was it was" "really crazy and a couple times I would just, like, leave the school... and, um, they would have to call the police to bring me back." "Um... and... and I also tried to kill myself." "When I was like ten I was raped, and... um... when I was like eleven my mom married without telling me or my brother." "I kind of started to not trust my family very much and just...separate myself from them a lot and just...find ways to let out my anger like lying, and stealing, and drugs, and a" "lot of drugs and stuff like that, and just guys." "Basically, I got sent down her because... um... my parents and I didn't get along at all." "Um..." "I'm gay, and... um... my parents, they they just weren't okay with that, they weren't willing to accept that fact." "My mom said something along the lines of, "I could never love a gay son."" "And... um... they were just basically finding any way possible to, you know, fix the problem, change it, and..." "I was just always felt like I was rejected because" "I've always felt like it was a part of me." "I was surprised to find out why these kids had been sent here." "These certainly weren't the hardened criminals that I had expected." "I fear the chaos of my former life... and it's still there I'm just not in it." "Life continued while" "I was here." "I did pushups while the boys drank beer." "I dealt with my issues they dealt drugs." "I grew as a person they grew weed in their closet." "I created a new life for myself while they created a new life that's due in September." "I changed for the better...while they changed their parents' worst fears into reality." "And they invested their lives when they bought in." "They bought into the sex, bought into the drugs, they bought into the cash, and fraudulent love, and it's amazing I'm not there myself." "I'm going home, and it might be chaotic." "I'm leaving a place that's almost robotic and entering a nonsense world." "But I have confidence in the face of the nonsense..." "I have faith to fight the fear." "But still I ask:" "pray for me when I leave here." "I'm going home, and it might be chaotic, but with some help, I'll succeed." "Alright." "Yep." "Dear heavenly father, I just thank you lord for today, lord, and just, uh, watch over their thoughts, their words, and their actions, God, and just ask that you bless this food to our bodies as well as the hands that prepared it, in" "your name we pray, amen." "May I be seated?" "Yeah." "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world." "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world." "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world." "May I please take my meds?" "Thank you." "Um..." "I'm on self-harm support, and so I have to eat with a spoon, and, um, at Star House I couldn't be in the" "Mud Room by myself cuz there were chemicals, and I can't be in the kitchen either." "So it's..." "I've been on it before, but um..." "I'm working at I'm working to be off it and stuff, like...when I offer to get people's dishes, if they have a fork, I can't pick it up, I have to ask someone else if they" "would be willing to take it off the plate for me." "If you feel like you can't help yourself then we'll help you by taking away the things that could potentially harm you, and that's pretty much what the self-harm support is all about." "It still doesn't prevent them from hurting themselves 'cuz there's shoelaces, belts still in there from every other girl, but... yeah." "May I step into the bedroom?" "Yes." "Woo!" "She's hot." "Matt stepped it up and he really got us together, and now he's now he's gone, and I guess I guess it's my turn, but... it's gonna be hard, I'm the newest one" "here, so... it's difficult, but... it's gonna be it's gonna feel like we've had a major loss for a while." "Morning routine... you wake up, you get your supplies, you do your room job which consists of making your bed, sweeping the floor that you're assigned to and doing your PA which is your personal area, where um... you, like, where you keep all your" "clothes and stuff like that and making sure that everything's inspection ready." "This collar has to be the length of half your pillowcase..." "like, that wide and then from here to there, that wide." "All the corners have to be made with a forty-five degree angle... and we can't have anything in our backpacks... either." "I've been looking forward to checking this bed all week..." "Really?" "No." "Oh, it's on..." "Darn right." "That's the first time in, what, two months?" "But they should be even." "Like, the hangers should be evenly spaced." "And like, all the buttons should be done up." "What have you been using as soap?" "The bar of soap." "Yep." "Button's undone." "Don't know why I missed it..." "Looks pretty good, Dave..." "For tennis shoes or boots or anything, the shoelaces, they can't be tied and the shoelaces have to be tucked into the shoe." "What's these laces can't be intertwined at all." "They weren't knotted but they were together." "No." "I'll go with a four-minus." "Okay." "May I see my point sheet?" "Yep." "John...!" "John...!" "Yo!" "This is gonna kill me right here... that one." "Can you explain the points and levels system?" "I could do, like, a five-hour-long... explanation." "Point sheets are filled out by supervising staff... um, such as the house father, and it determines the student's rank." "It's up to the house father to score the point sheet on a zero, which is rebellion, to five, which is excellent, scale." "Can you just kind of go over what zero level restrictions are?" "There's no other way to say it, but... zero level student you kind of... they..." "get treated like, we'll say six-year-olds." "They have to be told or they have to ask what we want them to do for everything." "Zero-levelers are putting so much pain on the house, so much pain on the house staff and just the other students in the house that... a way to kind of show them the amount of pain they're putting on everybody else is to" "put a little bit of... that type of pain on them." "Um, they have to get a time in to use the bathroom, um... they have a certain length of time that they can go." "They don't have many special privileges, they do not get any free time whatsoever so they must be working the entire time." "Generally to get on third or fourth level you have given in to the ministry and the expectations that we hold students accountable to." "I came here in..." "when did I come... the summer of... of, uh, '79, and we had a level system at that time." "And the basic expectations, responsibilities and the privileges of the level system have stayed the same, those have not changed." "Children's phone calls are recorded." "You wanted to know about the letters as well?" "Um... the letters are most parents don't have well, none of the parents have had a problem with this, they agree to this." "Um... we will monitor the incoming and outgoing mail for a time." "May I begin sweep-up?" "Yep." "Bust out?" "Yep." "Alright, guys, we're gonna have to bust out and sweep out, we only have, like, five minutes left." "What else do I miss about home... um... the ability to, um... sit, um... by a piano or a guitar and sing freely." "I miss being able to, um... call up my friends and say" ""I'm having a really hard time right now... do you want to go talk about it over a cup of coffee at Starbucks?"" "I don't have that anymore." "Um..." "I really miss my dog." "Um..." "I just really..." "I miss the old days, like, before my parents ever found out that I was gay." "I guess here, like, I am... you know, I'm learning, even though I'm not graduating with my friends... it's just..." "like, it's really hard, and... all I can do now is trust God." "Yeah guys, we really need to step it up, especially there's only six guys, we need to be aware of what's going on, you guys are forgetting a lot of stuff, things are going by missed, you weren't hustling hardly at all" "this morning..." "late for a lot of stuff." "Let's do... ten pushups..." "Yep, my count, you ready?" "Yeah." "Begin, down, down, down, down, down." "The latest session I was in, um, had to do with, um, me giving out information to Matt." "I was really worried about, like, a lot of my friends back home." "I asked him, like, you know, "Could you make my friends aware so they know that, like, I didn't drop off the face of the earth," and um, I guess they" "contacted Matt and that happened, and..." "I got a session." "Matt told on David?" "I guess he lost a bunch of privileges." "I guess after his session David isn't allowed to interact with anyone?" "I feel really bad for him..." "She's been standing there for, like, over an hour..." "I don't really know what the logic is behind it, but... seems kind of unnecessary." "...my role, I think, and..." "I'm not getting you guys what you need as house father, and one reason is because, um," "I'm allowing you guys to come to me a lot with, um, some of the emotional stuff and all that kinda goodness... so... just don't bring it to me." "Personally?" "I'm just doing what I have to do to go home." "That's all I want." "Is to go home." "Whatever they want me to do in order for me to go home, I will do it." "Cuz I want to go home." "What was that about?" "Apparently, like..." "I'm not really here because I'm gay..." "like, whatever." "But..." "just be like, relationship with issues is why I'm here, but he tried to tell me that, like, my relationship issues weren't based on my sexuality, but... then again it was because my anger derives from rejection" "from my parents, and he didn't believe that." "Opening up is a really difficult thing to do because I really have to put... a face on that isn't me." "I have to hide behind that mask again of, "Oh no, I'm not gay..." I have to hide behind the mask of, you know, not being able to express who I am, and it hurts." "It hurts a lot." "The other night, um...one of the students here, he claimed that he had a secret of his own." "Um... he was bisexual, or he thought he was bisexual, and... um... he was on first level... the next day we were cleaning the bano and..." "um... we aren't allowed to get off work-related... but... um..." "I like, we felt that, you know, it would be, like, an okay time to just like talk about it, just say, like, you know, "Yes, my parents did send me here" "because I'm gay," that situation, like... but... um, later on, I guess one of the students like, heard something or heard whispering..." "I had a session." "I had to go in," "I had to admit everything, I had to basically, um... come out to my group leader, my teacher, and, um..." "let my house father know what was going on." "It was probably the most humiliating moment for me." "It was the scariest thing in the world because, like, you go in there if I, if I touch the door, I touch the door, they were just like, "Two pushups, now!" They were like, "Well" "you're in big trouble!" you know." "And..." "I was so scared," "I was like, my nervous reaction is to go like this a lot, like," "I fiddle with my fingers." "And Craig, my group leader was like slapping my hands, just like, "Get your hands away!" Like," ""Get your hands away!" "Look at him straight!" "Tell me what happened!" "Get your hands away!" Like, I kept I kept doing that like as a nervous reaction, they were just like, "Stop that!" "Two more pushups!" "Two more pushups!" "Get your hands away!"" "Mmhm." "I know." "Ugh..." "How do we deal with kids that come down and have homosexual issues... or claim to be even bisexual, you know." "We really don't even look at that." "A lot of our, our kids have been hurt sexually by people." "And so, many as we have gone through counseling have come to understand that the reason why they have enjoyed the same-sex relationships is because they couldn't trust the other sex." "The whole issue is, what's the deeper issue, and you have to get to the root." "And then they see that, "Oh, I'm so glad," many of our kids go," ""Oh, I'm so glad that I'm not, um, a homosexual."" "And I said, "But but you claimed you were when you came,"" "they said, "yes, because because the sexual act felt good and I trusted that person, but now I understand that God's given the sexual act, you're SUPPOSED to feel in the sexual act," "it's just in the wrong context that I was feeling it."" "So, homosexuality, we really don't focus on that." "So I just woke up and I heard a staff member screaming at a student outside my window." "He's really just, like, laying into him, screaming at the top of his lungs." "And it looks like there's another student digging a hole... the students aren't talking back or anything, just kind of have their heads down." "I'm gonna go see if I can get a better shot." "I was beginning to become really uncomfortable with many of the ways that students were being treated here." "I started to question everything I believed to be true about the school and even my own faith." "I wasn't sure how long I could continue playing both sides." "I kept praying, asking for a sign, but I was still confused." "In search of answers, I reached out to a woman who had written a book about her time at the school." "I was sent to Escuela Caribe because I ran away from home... and I..." "I left home because my father was violent." "I wrote "Jesus Land", my memoir, as a tribute to my brother." "We were sent down to Escuela Caribe together." "And... after he died I found this green notebook where he was writing about his experiences at home and also at Escuela Caribe." "And... so I wrote the book again as a tribute to him, a way to immortalize him." "And also to kinda set the record straight, you know, what this this school is not a nice place." "It's not a good place for children, it really hurt both my brother and" "I, tremendously." "Let me give you one anecdote of an image that kind of sums up Escuela Caribe for me... was... uh, one day, I saw a counselor punch my brother in the stomach." "Uh... completely unprovoked." "And, at the time we weren't allowed to communicate, and just the feeling of utter helplessness that I felt seeing my brother being physically abused by a teacher at this place and not being able to do anything to help him." "That's the kind of sick feeling that I took away from this place when I left it." "It's just "Believe what we believe or else...or else we'll be violent towards you." "And that's... how I feel about Escuela Caribe." "What kind of punishments have you gotten?" "Um, for panic attacks, I've gotten punishments like usually I would just get six units, which is either six swats, six hundred exercises, or six hours of work." "But I don't usually like swats..." "usually that's that's a last resort...cuz, I can only take five at a time and it still it's pretty painful." "you have, of course, um work manual labor." "Um, exercises, certain amount of exercises per something that was done wrong." "Um, we do have, um... the, uh, swats, or, um... that as a discipline." "We still use the paddle, we used the paddle thirty years ago." "We still give pushups, we give pushups thirty years ago." "You know." "They still run casitas here, from the bottom from the gate to the top." "When they have a one or a zero on their point sheet form the day before, they get for every one they have they get one casita, and if they get a zero they get two casitas, but they can't run more than three in a day." "There's one right here... and then there's one in the back too... they'll heal in a couple of days, though." "This one was a pretty big one about a week and a half ago but it's healed now." "Just gotta take care of them." "So how did you feel about the run?" "Um... tired." "Upset." "But eventually it is gonna get to a place where it is gonna be very uncomfortable." "And you are gonna hate that." "That's gonna be pain you don't want and it's my duty to let you know that's where it's going so you can make good decisions." "Alright?" "Alright." "So this is for you to figure out." "But the disrespectfulness, and the whole beyond-zero-level... stuff... and you know what I'm talking about?" "Mhm." "It's gotta stop." "Okay." "Alright?" "Yes sir." "Alright, fifteen squat thrusts." "Excuse me?" "Yeah, I'm fine." "Okay... okay." "May I begin?" "Yeah." "One... two..." "My name is Mary Powell and I worked with New" "Horizons Ministries from March of 1991 to April of 1994." "Was there anything that you personally saw or knew was going on while you were staff that would be considered physical abuse?" "Um..." "I didn't see it...but I heard it." "Especially, like, in the QR." "Um, the QR is forbidden to talk about, you're not allowed to talk about why you were there, that's something that" "I've never heard, I mean, I wasn't even told not to say that but it's just one of those things that you don't say." "You're in the room by yourself, you get a mattress that's that thick at its thickest, a pillow, and a blanket." "You'd hear, there'd be four or five big guys, staff members, in there with the kid, and there's just all, like, just you could just knew that the kid was being tossed around" "and slammed against and this is after, you know, a kid has probably been in there for days!" "You know... with... not like, a sheet... you know, to cover up with, depending on how insubordinate they were." "I would say to you... that we all have our perceptions." "Um..." "I would tell you that we are not a perfect organization." "And we definitely make mistakes." "There are things that have happened here, and that will happen here in the future that shouldn't happen." "Has there ever been anything here that has taken place that... we wish we could change, I would I would have to honestly state that there has been things that have taken place." "I am not going to deny that there was never any form of abuse that has happened here, um, I think in any area of childcare there is abuse, I've... heard just general incidences that have happened in the past where students" "were abused, you know." "There's no denying that whatsoever.... um... however, that lot of the onus I believe also falls on the student." "I wanted to know that he was safe but something in my my spirit knew that he wasn't safe and he wasn't in a good place." "The pieces started to fall together, um, and finally there was, um, communication that confirmed that he was actually, um, had been taken out of the country." "One of my son's friend came back from the school, he'd been in the school, and said he'd seen David down there." "So we started by, yes, researching the school, and try and find out what the school was about, and we formed started to form plans on how we could possibly get in touch with David." "We had weekly meetings with a group of us trying to figure out what we could do we really wanted to get him home for graduation." "Do you get back on second?" "Yeah." "I'll be on second again so I'll be able to talk to everybody." "But then again I made fairly bad points yesterday." "So I'll probably be on first, point probation and then by next" "Sunday." "I'm not really excited, but... it's alright." "Um, Pico's this trip we take every year... in the summer, usually." "And we all pack up our stuff and hike for five days, six days, straight, um, up a bunch of mountains to the top of" "Pico Duarte." "You guys still didn't hustle before, you're still not following her directions, still not listening to her." "That's not okay." "That's not okay when we're back at the house, that's not okay now." "Do you guys understand?" "Yes sir." "Okay." "So you guys you give me ten squat thrusts." "Uh... begin and recover." "Yes sir." "So I expect from this point on that you're gonna be responding to Liz, she says, you guys, move this stuff to this thing to here, that you're jumping on it, you're doing" "that." "If she says "let's go", you're responding, you're actually moving." "I know you're tired, but..." "Beth, start working on the tents." "... or..." "let's see..." "I think it's funny..." "because, if any of my friends were here and they would see, like, these people just rolling in the mud, they would probably cry with me right now 'cuz this is like the most excruciating, gross, nastiest thing, do you" "know what's in this dirt?" "There's like cow poop, horse poop, all kinds of poop, and then people put it on their face it's nasty!" "This is not like a mud bath, or exfoliating or anything of that sort." "It's horrible." "At this point..." "I hate my life." "First they don't tell us that Rachel, the staff member, has to be with us when we're interviewing students which is kind of a big deal because it takes from any credibility of any interviews with students we have whatsoever, and then" "we every time we try to film, like, a confrontation with a staff member and a student, um... they all, like, don't let us." "Can I talk to you?" "Oh, yeah." "All we're left with is just, like, pretty shots of nature and kids saying, like, how great this hike was and how great the program is and if things don't change then we're gonna have to switch gears, and... it's just what we're" "gonna have to do, because we're trying to make a good film, we're trying to make an honest film and one that's credible." "Once the staff started restricting my interviews, I set up the camera, left it unattended, and started to film from a distance." "Um... yeah... and, like, I don't know, like, I like, I struggle with my mom a lot, like it was hard, like I could never sit down and, like, just have a" "conversation with her without, like, yelling, you know?" "And it was always just hard to do that." "Yeah." "Probably." "But..." "I don't know." "It gets frustrating." "But like, I do talk to my mom a lot and like, like I, I try to like just tell her, like, kind of like what's going on and stuff like that but, like, sometimes my mom doesn't believe" "she doesn't grasp things very well." "You know?" "So I'm just like, "Mom, I'm trying to tell you how things really are in this program," and she's like, "Dadadada, they're fine, they're fine, it's not that bad." But it is." "You know?" "And, like, I'm just like, if if you saw..." "how things were... you'd be sad." "You know?" "It's I, I don't know, maybe maybe it's abuse, maybe it's just draining, you know?" "Sometimes it's just like, you have to stuff up your emotions so much that you can't really let 'em loose and so, like like I don't know." "It does get hard when, like you know, like, different things happen." "But..." "I don't know." "It's difficult." "Do you think you're going back in August, right?" "I'm supposed to be, but things change a lot so I don't really know if I'm still leaving or... but..." "I'm that's what my mom said, but... they, they can always convince your parents to make you stay here longer for their money." "Yeah." "You know?" "Like, a lot of, like you know, like, a lot of organizations, run privately, dadadadada, but like, um, but it's it's cool because they're all like, "It's not for the" "money, no no no," but it is." "Everything's for the money." "How could they how could this school still be standing if it wasn't, you know?" "Yeah." "It's like allow this to happen, they're going to crumble in your hands." "Okay, but you gotta do it this way." "If you are struggling with the fight know that God does not waste suffering." "If he plows, it's because he purposes a crop." "But your feelings and experiences evaluated in the light of God's word." "Those of you that are considering a relationship with Christ, remember that the spiritual life is a stern choice, it is not a consoling retreat from the difficulties of existence." "And like, I always had, like, aspirations of going to college and stuff and like, my parents just were never, like" "I don't honestly, like, I don't think they knew how to confront it and stuff and like, they're telling me, like Mr. Seabrooke that I have all these problems that like, I didn't even think" "I had, like, with anxiety, like, I never really thought of myself as having an anxiety problem." "Back at home, like, did you feel stressed out or like you had too much on your plate and didn't know what to do?" "Well my schoolwork was a good, like, four hours of homework every night just because, like, they were all" "AP classes and stuff." "If I was doing as well as you were in school... um... you know, like... that would just speak volumes to my parents." "I'm just like, God, why did, like, you let this happen to me, like my birthday will be five months exactly for me." "Mhm." "I'll be eighteen by then." "Yeah, turning turning eighteen here is not all that much fun." "I know..." "I don't know if you heard this, but I got this fear and I'm a little nervous/ But I will flow these beats and I will spin them/ They will make you move your feet, and" "I'm not sinning'/ I came down here to deal with some issues" "And now I'm leavin' things to Jesus Christ and he wants to kiss you... he wants to love you, and never miss you" "He wants you to come back, the prodigal son... yeah he wants to be your number one, he wants to come and give you all of his love like the fountain from above/ He got me from my knees and he picked me up, he wiped my" "face off, he filled my cup/ He is the number one savior and if" "I could have him he'd be a flavor." "Looking good..." "okay, this one, you can be silly... three...." "You know, parts of Pico were like back home in Colorado in the mountains and I used to do a lot of hiking with my dad, and like, four-wheeling with my dad in the mountains and it really, like, you know, kinda brought me to the realization" "that, like, you know, my dad isn't here and I'm not going to see him for a while." "And like..." "I don't know, him and" "I used to have a really good relationship, and..." "I guess... like, it just made me realize, like, you know, how bad our relationship was and stuff, so... unfortunately the people I really got to know are gonna leave in like fifteen days in August, they're going to Marion, or going going all the" "way back home, so..." "I'm just kind of stuck here." "After all this, it became very clear to me that this so-called therapy was doing more harm than good." "And it was getting harder and harder to hide these feelings from the staff." "This morning we have a lot of people here with, uh... a lot of different things on their minds." "How many people enjoyed Pico this last week?" "Is there anybody here that did not really enjoy themselves on Pico this last week?" "Two, three hands?" "Okay." "Well you know, that's honesty, I like honesty, you know." "No, we we gotta recognize that this morning... that we have a great opportunity once again as we're gathered together to see what God's about in our lives... how is he gonna transform and change who YOU are... are you willing to submit" "to God... as your master." "Follow me." "This is gonna sound kinda shady but I kinda wrote like, a letter, I was just like, "Aw, if only I could give this to, like," "Kate, to give to Angie or something," but... and just, it feels it's so crazy that she goes to..." "She's going to Biola, yeah...'cuz we'll definitely meet her, and hopefully bring it to her." "You'll love her to death... you'll love her to death... she's one of the funniest people you'll ever meet." "So... yeah." "...but that's something that you guys can really begin to think," ""Hm...what are we gonna do what am I gonna do with this?" "Forget everybody else on the team, I gotta get me straight before it becomes a team, what am I gonna do about this?" Or say," ""Hm...he's still checked out." "That Brian Wall...they all must be crazy in North Carolina..." "that guy doesn't know what he's talking about." You know?" "That's fine, at least you're being honest, you know." "I respect that." "But realize, here comes the pain... you know?" "See you next week on Friday." "You see what I mean?" "It's all gonna come painted out on the point sheet or, the inspection sheet again." "And then we'll all look at it and go, ugh..." "UNH." "You know?" "Alright." "Let's get the" "What's up with this place?" "Uh, we got inspected." "What usually happens during inspection is, um," "Mr. Anderson, the Home Life director comes by and he... basically checks the house, um, to see how clean it is... um, if he finds a bust, he usually starts throwing stuff as... what's happened in the room, I got a couple shirts thrown," "and... surprisingly my PA's not too bad." "So yeah, now we're all just, um, in here to..." "basically put everything away and fix all of our busts that we had and stuff." "Yeah." "David, you [unintelligible] or something?" "Yeah." "Everybody's on the line." "Oh, okay." "Sorry for keeping you." "Yeah." "If you get in trouble, just tell them we had you." "May I step out?" "Yeah." "Is jumping almost done?" "Um, yeah, there's only like a few things left..." "Fantastic." "May I step in?" "May I step in?" "Patience is a virtue!" "It's something I'm developing." "Pardon?" "Five chin-ups." "Right now?" "Yes." "You may begin." "One... two... three..." "four... five" "I ask that you bless this food to our bodies as well as the hands who prepared it, in your name we pray, amen." "Amen." "You can succeed if you choose to just put some of the things that you've done in the past behind you and forgive and let God work through you and grow you through those experiences." "And you can overcome it, and you can start anew, but those are choices that you need to make, um, and I can't make those for you, I can't push you into that decision." "But that's a choice that you need to look at and you need to make, you know." "Um..." "because you can be ready to start anew and afresh, and..." "and persevere and push through some of these failures that have pretty much sent you down here, you know." "But... again, those are your choices." "Alright... tomorrow we're starting, looks like King David." "One... two... three, may I recover?" "Yes." "David..." "Um, I had a few obstacles thrown at me today." "I got a letter, you know, from my parents." "And... they were just telling me, you know, like, you know, how much, like, fun they're having, like, going up to the mountains and four-wheeling and how they brought, like, some of our" "friends, and anyway." "And also, like, my mom sent me a Colorado quarter, and I was just like, "Ahhhhh..." So... um, I tried to handle that pretty well." "Um, I try to avoid conversations like, yeah, well, you know, if I work on this, like, you know, then" "I'll go home then, and you know, like, I'm trying to avoid conversations like that." "And, um..." "I had a decent day, I mean, like... the stuff that, like, with the counseling you know, getting the letters and that sort of stuff did kinda hit me, but like it took me it took me about a good half-hour like," "after counseling to just like, bring myself back down." "So..." "I guess you could say that was a bust." "So overall I guess you could say I had a pretty good day." "Uh..." "I'll go for... a... four-minus?" "Uh I'm gonna give you a... four-minus." "They're like through my letters, like, I kind of get the feeling that, like, my parents are totally, like, hiding this... that they're hiding the fact that, like, I'm here" "because of this, like, I think they're telling me that like," ""Oh, like, he's studying in the Dominican Republic doing, you know, like, cool cool cool,", you know." "Yeah." "Which... isn't entirely true, and then like... yeah, it is that, but, it is a lot more than that." "I think that... it might be helpful... you know, yeah, okay, these are things that bother you and these are things that concern you, but..." "I think at some point I think it's important to step back and go," ""Why do these bother me so much?"" "I also feel like... my parents, like, sent me here to like, hide me, just like..." "from, like, being embarrassed." "So... enjoy hiding for a little while." "I don't trust my parents, like, why should I trust, like, them sending me to this program, so like, why should I trust the program?" "Mhm." "And like, I'm really trying to like... find trust in that." "Because, like... because I want my parents back." "Like... really bad." "So." "And just..." "like, I'm trying my hardest to just like, you know, trust in the program and stuff, and like... every day that kind of just, like... choose like," "I wish I could talk to my parents." "I think that there is value in taking time out." "We need discipline, we need guidance, we need that black and white... um, expression, I think." "We need that." "And one thing that I'm gonna try to do more is be more black and white" "'Cuz I think that does help increase security and alleviate anxiety." "I think that's a plus." "Yeah." "We got plenty of time to get relational and all that garbage." "Back home I had, last semester a four point three GPA." "I mean, I had everything going for me, I was trying to get theater scholarships...and I can't have that anymore." "I was trying to get, um, in the international baccalaureate diploma, that's gone." "Basically everything that I've been working for for three years in high school is gone... so..." "I'm facing a lot of disappointment." "I..." "I honestly think that there is some there's got to be some kind of law against holding you here past the age of eighteen because.... although we are in the Dominican Republic, this is a US establishment, I am a US" "citizen, I should be... free..." "by my eighteenth birthday, but... no." "Right now, like, I just feel so open but like... it's so hard because I feel like..." "I'm being forced into a ball and psychologically it's not going to be good for me." "I feel like I'm going to need some major counseling once I get out of here." "I feel like I'm gonna lose my mind here, I feel like I'm going to..." "like, I'm just going to crack and I'm just not going to be able to go any further, and... it's just so, like... it's so hard for me, like..." "I mean, so many things running through my mind, I don't sleep..." "I mean, like, right now" "I just..." "I'm just thinking, like, every little way of getting out of here but then again I'm just like, "God, you put me here, I'm trying to trust you." So..." "So wait, so... tell me..." "what happened to you this week?" "Well, I was on zero level this morning when I woke up, but" "I've been doing my requirements to get on second, I was gonna wait 'til next week but then Mr. Anderson was like, "No, I want her on second now," so I got my paper signed and now I'm on" "second." "And it's kind of freaky because, like, I'm afraid that" "I'm gonna let some people down, you know, like, when I build relationships on second, you know, and stuff like that." "Um, this morning I got off my self-harm support." "And, basically what you have to do is you have to go in and see Mr." "Anderson and tell him some reasons of why you think that you're ready to get off of it, so, now I'm support-free and I'm good to go." "I don't think I'm gonna need self-harm support anymore, I've been on it a couple times and each time I've been able to gain... more I've been able to better um be able to talk to people when I need to instead of just holding it" "inside and everything." "Great!" "Good, thanks!" "You leave Monday morning?" "Yeah." "Are you serious?" "It's true." "That's so sad... who am I gonna run away from my house breaks to?" "I don't know!" "That's so sad." "If you could say something to your closest friend, what would it be?" "To... um... my closest friend... um... okay." "Angie, um..." "I had a lot of fun with you the day before I left going to all the graduation parties with you and um... it really meant a lot to me, and... um..." "just thanks for all the good times and the the trips down to Denver..." "I mean, like, this is probably last year was probably the best year of my life with her." "So, That's about it." "It's been six weeks since I arrived here at Esceula Caribe and it's going to be really difficult to leave the students here." "Especially David." "I do still have his letter and his best friend Angie just happens to be a freshman at my school." "So I'm gonna find her." "David wrote you this letter, um, and he gave it to us to give it to you." "Okay..." "And I think it really helped him to know that you were gonna get this letter, so..." ""Angie... this may come off as a shock to you but our worst fears have come true." "I am currently in the Dominican" "Republic at a school called Escuela Caribe in Jarabacoa." "I don't know why I alarm you I don't want to alarm you so I will try to lighten things up." "Rusty, your Willard needs rescuing." "If this letter is seen by staff here I will receive a due penalty including swats... including swats?"" "What does that mean?" "Yeah, it was a, uh... one of the punishments that they do sometimes is swats which is basically like getting a spanking with a wooden paddle or a leather strap." "Seriously?" "Mhm." "Oh my gosh... "I am entrusting Kate with this to get to you safely." "I need a lot of help so please, please, please, if you can, get me home." "They want to hold me here for over a year..." "I've been here for about a month and a half and I've already begin to lose my mind." "I beg you to please let your mom know and use all the power you and your mom and your dad and your sister can to free me." "Angie please pray for me for strength." "Please bring me home, mom." "Love, David."" "The letter came... um..." "and that was real powerful for me, that was when I decided that, you know, if we're sending people down there I'm gonna be one of them that goes down there." "You know, the planning..." "was probably a really good thing to have to occupy the time, I mean that he wasn't eighteen yet, because it let us plan some more." "So I think looking into the school, trying to make contact with the school, trying to understand who they were and how they held students, what they did." "Money was raised and put together for two members of the group to actually go down to the Dominican Republic." "So everything has to be lined up when we go in, I mean it's get the most documents we can together to go in so that in one visit... we say this stops." "He thought it would be a good idea if we had something from an attorney in San Domingo." "That will give us enough that we should be able to get him released, you know, I mean that's just..." "all there is to it." "It goes a long way to have somebody from the consulate say," ""I know first hand that this young man wants to leave." "And he has the right to do it, now that he's eighteen."" "I think at this point, we go in there tomorrow with whatever we have." "Oh, whatever we have." "And that's it, and we'll get him released one way or another." "Oh, we'll get him released." "You know, he's a good kid, he's a smart kid, this kid does not deserve to be in this place." "Six four seven three..." "Hi Mark, this is Doug Lyons... good, how you doin'?" "You wanted to talk yeah." "He's just one that needs that needs to be, uh... needs to be able to walk out of there and we want to make that happen for him tomorrow." "We recognized we were probably gonna get one shot at going on to the campus and demanding his release and so there were times spent for the couple days in advance trying to be sure everything was lined up as best we could." "Hi Mark, this is Doug Lyons." "Uh... we're, uh... uh... we're at the base of the hill here, so I guess if you wanna call David and tell him we're comin'." "We arrived, um, at the school, um, Doug and I went onto the campus and were allowed on, and were... brought to an office to sit down and meet with school personnel." "Then we presented, uh... what we were there for." "Then we presented the letter, and said, we want" "David out of here." "Game's over... it's done." "You're... this is he's eighteen." "He's gonna come home." "And this.... guy we were talking to, his whole demeanor changed, he started sweatin' bullets, I mean, he had... perspiration all over his forehead instantaneously." "And from there you could tell that a lot of activity was going on in other parts of the office." "People were concerned, there were phone calls being made, um... we were told that he wasn't there." "Um, and that we wouldn't be able to see him." "And they were trying to push us out." "And, uh..." "Mark was being way more persistent than I was about staying there." "It became clear after a while that we were not gonna leave the campus with him, that we weren't going to be granted the access no matter what we had tried, and that we were gonna be asked to leave." "It looks like the US embassy isn't gonna do anything." "As soon as Doug and I left the school campus, um, the phone calls started to come in." "Okay, well, well, well, why why don't you, uh, why don't you call David on the, on the phone?" "You can get a hold of those guys." "Okay." "So that's not, not, not, important to, uh... to do that, is that what you're saying?" "It's not... okay, so what you're saying is it's not the house trip is more important than his rights, is what basically you're saying." "But I understand that, I'll call Mark to see what he has to say, and then we'll go from there." "Okay, thanks Jeff, buh-bye." "So, we're leaving without David." "I'm really worried about David..." "I can't imagine how the staff must be reacting." "There was work done to get a judge to issue an order that said David had to appear in the United States." "Because the embassy wouldn't force Escuela Caribe to release David, we had a US judge issue a writ of Habeus Corpus, which is designed to free those who are unlawfully detained." "It was December, 'cuz I remember there was snow on the ground, and my phone my phone rang at two in the morning maybe, and I answered it, and it was a whisper with my name," "like, "Hello?" And hearing his voice was like... it was like the best thing ever." "And I remember just screaming, like, darting into my mom's room, like, bawling my eyes out, you know, telling her that it was him, and...we, uh, when we were" "on the phone we decided to meet at Starbucks the next morning." "So, Angie just got a call from one of David's friends that he's in the Starbucks, don't know why he didn't call Angie, but, we think he might be in here... what's going on..." "You can't film in here." "We can't oh... can we not... are you sure we sorry." "What are you guys doing here?" "I'm not sure if I can talk to you guys." "I think I just want to go home." "He didn't call, and... when I found him he didn't want to talk." "I really hope that he's been fed a lot of lies and" "I really hope that he has no idea how much everybody has been stressing over this and praying over this and like, losing sleep over this, and like... spending so much time on this." "Oh, man." "I don't think I've ever been this devastated before." "And, uh..." "like, Mrs. Johnson set up scholarships for him and the Wallaces were..." "gonna help him with college, and... we were gonna help, and... we had all those meetings, and people have done so much, and... he's gone through hell and back, and like, he just..." "I don't know, like," "I want to say that he doesn't know all the things that he does but I think he does a good deal." "It's like I'm heartbroken but" "I'm mad and I'm, like, devastated, but I'm like... furious, I just..." "Things kinda fell apart after this." "David wouldn't talk to me, his parents and Esceula Caribe threatened to sue if I continued with the film and I was forced to put the project on hold indefinitely." "My own faith had been totally shaken." "I didn't even know if I wanted to call myself a Christian anymore after all the things I'd witnessed." "Luckily, a couple years after I graduated things calmed down and I was finally able to catch up with Beth and Tai." "Come on in, guys." "I think about the Dominican all the time." "I talk about it probably at least maybe once a week." "Um...my coworkers all know about it, my friends all know about it, my family all know about it;" "I was there seventeen months to the day." "Did you graduate down there?" "Yes, I graduated high school down there." "When I first got back it was definitely awkward for me, I had lost a lot of friends, a lot of people didn't know... didn't really remember me, didn't know where I'd gone" "or why, and I didn't really wanna talk about it," "I didn't wanna say where I went or explain what" "I'd been through because people wouldn't understand." "Probably one of the worst things down there was the QR." "Um..." "I'm definitely claustrophobic so being in a... five by ten room with the doors locked... was definitely very frightening." "Granted, I wasn't in there all day, a lot of the days, um, I was either outside scrubbing walls or... doing manual work." "Um, but that was probably the worst part of my experience." "I still get nightmares, I still get nightmares about... weeks of Pico..." "And, you know, about getting swats, and about... you know... having to run casitas until I was coughing blood, I get nightmares about that, I do still think about those things." "You can't really forget those things." "Now, when I think about the Dominican, I don't think about the negative I mean, I might think about all those swats that I got, because I got a lot, I don't think about all" "of the pushups..." "I got a lot." "Um, I think about the positive stuff." "Sometimes I think of the negative stuff, but it's a part of me and it's a part of my experience." "I am angry, I am angry at a lot of the staff members who... uh, watched things happen to not only me but other students and... not do anything about it and think that it's okay." "A lot of it was just so broken and not wanting to be in pain anymore and to behave to deal with... the punishments." "I've I do miss it, I miss, like, the structure, I like structure." "They didn't just walk up to me and pick me out of a crowd and say, "Bend over, I'm giving you ten swats for no reason." It's because I messed up." "The whole focus there, the whole brainwashing and trying to conform, and... making..." "haveing forced to be somebody that you're not just because you're different." "It's crazy how they would twist the words of the Bible just to make theirselves sound make what they were doing sound legit!" "Other students that went there whether it was for drug or alcohol, they were already out doing what they wanted, they didn't care, they didn't want help, whereas me, I wanted the treatment, I wanted the help, we just didn't" "know what else to do." "I needed to do and I wanted to do whatever I could to get out of there, so if that means... if that means saying that I'm born again or..." "whatever they wanted me to do, then I'll do it." "If that means I need to sing, then I'll do it." "If that means I gotta, you know, run this casita so many times or... you know, take these paddles, I'll do it." "As far as I'm concerned, um..." "Escuela Caribe is... what saved my life." "It definitely hurts me to hear people say negative things about that place because like I said, it did save my life." "Um... but however, I don't know what happened behind closed doors." "What got me through the whole situation was knowing that... at the end of the day, what they were doing was not right." "I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy." "I wouldn't." "Not a day." "Shortly after this David finally reached out to me again." "He explained that the Escuela Caribe staff had told him that if he had had any contact with me, he would be ruining his relationship with his parents forever." "Then David told me that he wanted his story to be told, and that he trusted me to help him tell it." "So I met him back in Colorado." "You excited to see your Colorado friends?" "Yeah..." "I'm, uh..." "I'm excited, a little nervous, I haven't been home in a while." "I mean, what made you, like trust me in the first place to, like, decide that you could give me this letter that could get you in so much trouble?" "It really took a leap of faith because... um... it all seemed so perfect when... you came to the house, you asked to interview me, I didn't really kinda say, "Please please interview me, please" like, I didn't, you know?" "We weren't allowed to do that." "And the fact that for my interview, they closed the door and I was in privacy." "I'm really excited." "David, how you doing?" "Aw..." "How are you guys?" "Great seeing you." "Sight for sore eyes right there." "It's good to see you." "Cheers, guys, it's good to see you." "Good to see you too." "things were okay, and I finished out my senior year at" "Westley... got to graduate." "Yeah, I know, that's cool." "Like, I got to graduate from my high school." "Yeah, I know." "It aw, it was so nice." "But so." "You gave many of us an opportunity to take up much of what we had been wanting to teach our kids and to believe ourselves was true about the world that we live in." "And in some way, like, you really helped me to, like, because a more, like, understanding and tolerant person without you ever realizing it." "That's the thing, yeah, you've changed, I mean all you've changed all of us, and you've changed all of us for the better." "And, you know, the things that we... we did, you know, to help you, really helped... me, I know, and and to grow, and to be, uh, a better person." "Oh my God!" "Hi, I didn't want to interrupt!" "Oh my God!" "Good to see you!" "Ohhh..." "Hi...!" "For the six weeks before I came back, um, the school had prefaced me with the fact, you know, this film is going to harm everything, and my dad said he hired a lawyer and he was ready to... um, you know, fight everything" "that had happened." "Yeah." "So, I don't remember what exactly I said, if it was like," ""I don't know if I can talk to you right now."" "Right." "Because I was so nervous, surprised, and also just like," "I don't know if I'm gonna get in legal trouble for this because of the action that my dad was ready to take..." "I'm sure..." "really overwhelming." "It was really, it was so overwhelming, and I remember seeing the footage of you, like, being so upset afterwards, and" "I knew that like, this wasn't right." "I just immediately got attacked with feelings of like, what did his parents tell him?" "Like, you know, and I was I just had all these thoughts of they told him that maybe he they told him, like, "Angie wants you to be here!" "You know, she got she was she was excited, she hates you!" Like, I didn't know like what had been said or if anyone else or if the school was like, "There was this girl," "and... you know, you can't be friends with her ever again"" "and I was just like, I was like, at that moment I was like," ""I'm losing, like, one of my best friends."" "The love you guys had for me while I was there definitely helped me with all the feelings of... rejection and hate from all the staff, even though they called it this other type of love... which is sick." "Um... it kept me going." "Like, when you think about it and when you think about, like, all the things you've gone through and then, like, where you are now..." "I just really also want to have something for other kids that have been in institutionalized in a similar program anywhere, I recently learned that there are thousands... hundreds if not thousands of programs like this that are forcing kids to conform and breaking down their mindset," "and they're just kids." "I'm just so proud of you." "And I know that" "God is so proud of you." "Thank you..." "And I just love you so much..." "I love you too." "In order to improve the standard of care in this industry, it's important to consistently shed light on the urgent need for reform." "Community events are instrumental in that effort." "Hopefully with continued advocacy and increased public awareness, all residential programs will be free of abusive practices." "Parents will be empowered to make safe choices for their children and children will receive the services they need to be healthy." "Sincerely, Congressman George Miller, senior Democrat, California." "They told us that, um, you know, since we're in the" "Dominican Republic, and we know you have rights at eighteen, um, you know, you don't have those rights anymore in the DR because, you know, there's some clause in Dominican law saying that, and I was just like," ""That's not true." "That's not true."" "They told you that, like they just lied to you and." "They told me that." "They straight up lied to me and I said, "That's not true."" "We are at the first historic SIA convention twenty-twelve." "So survivors for everywhere are flown in for this event." "And we made it a whole weekend because there's so much to talk about." "I say this just to let you know that while I can never understand what you've been through because I've never been in these centers, I do know what it's like to be afraid." "Before we get into how to have solutions to some of these horrible things that are going on, I think it's very important to tell your stories." "So one day I go to sleep and in the middle of the night, three, two men and one woman, kick down my door." "Um, I was sleeping without clothes on, and they take me." "Um... they watch me dress and they take me in the middle of the night, and they take me to Julian Youth" "Academy." "They put me on "no-touch" because they questioned my sexuality and they said I was confused." "And I looked the staff member Tiffany Smith in the eye and I said, I'm not confused." "I know how I feel, and no matter how many things I say that they did to me such as getting frostbite and not being allowed to wear gloves, I don't know, getting medically sick that I" "was throwing up blood every day but not getting medical attention, all kinds of things like this, I could tell you a million things like that." "But what the worst part was the emotional feeling." "It felt like I was being suffocated for sixteen months and five days." "So I'm here today to hopefully encourage other people who are scared to talk about what happened to them and just to bring awareness that... these are weeds that need to die." "By attending SIA, Survivors Of Institutional" "Abuse, um, I feel that there is not just one facility or teen program that is like the one that I was locked in, but many." "And it's very scary because I thought, just like many survivors, that mine was the only one and I need to do something about it, because this is unheard of, I can't believe this is happening." "There's no way that you can count 'em!" "Because there's no government regulation." "I mean, this kind of thing I knew went on in North" "Korea, I knew it went on in the former Soviet Union..." "I was shocked to see that right here in the United States of America, good old American kids that have done nothing wrong are getting tortured, sexual abused, and a lot of times unfortunately because their parents are tricked into" "sending these kids to these places." "I remember being in New Bethany and... and wondering if anyone cared, if anyone knew where I was, if anyone was ever gonna find me or any of the rest of us, or were or was this what was going to be the rest of my life." "And..." "I, yesterday when I was amongst all of these people, it occurred to me that there's a child, many many children right now all across the country wishing that same thing and wondering that same thing and hoping that someone is gonna" "come and save them and they don't even know at all that we're all here and we are all here for the same cause, and we are all here trying to save their lives." "It's been five and a half years and..." "I've just... you know, coming to my parents about this and telling them that I feel like it wasn't okay that I got sent away, it took me that long, and this is just the beginning to this healing" "process and understanding, and... it's gonna take a while." "Do I call myself a Christian?" "No, because today... being a Christian means so many different things." "So what do you believe in now?" "What do I believe in now?" "I believe in love." "We're in the business of trying to save prodigals." "There's a real struggle in my spirit about doing that." "Because, if you look at the story of the Prodigal" "Son, the Prodigal didn't get saved... until he decided to make a change." "So, are we just beatin' our heads against the wall by trying to change kids that are prodigals... hm." "Good question." "I guess that's for another discussion for another day and another time." "Uh... because we're doin' it." "So, I don't want to really..." "question that right now." "They were living in hell, what we were doing was wrong, it did not help them." "And, we need to answer for that." "Somebody's got to answer for that."