"Tonight on Dragons' Den..." "I'm going to give you just a little piece of advice now - you could blow this." "Physical orders, written down, confirmed - what have you got?" "Nope." "Good try, but that doesn't answer my question, either." " If you develop a guerrilla brand, - if - you crack that, then you could make a fortune." "If any one of my MDs is ordering a Michelin-star meal," "I'd throw him out the nearest window." "Ugh!" " Ah!" " Oh, Yes!" "Welcome to Dragons' Den." "The Dragons have built empires by spotting great business opportunities." "But here, only the entrepreneurs who can offer big returns will get a vital cash investment." "The rest will walk away with nothing." "First into the Den, a former blue-chip corporate lawyer who has stepped off the career ladder to try and clean up in the male grooming market." "I took a gamble." "It was an itch I had to scratch." "But what we're setting out to achieve here could be enormous." "Win, lose or draw, I'd love to work with these guys and take the business to where I think it can go - right up in the stratosphere." "The sky's the limit for this entrepreneur, but will the Dragons be blown away by the fragrance of his business?" "Hello." "Ladies and gentlemen, it's my pleasure to introduce you to the British start-up Gruhme." "Gruhme makes and sells its own line of male fragrances." "When I started this business three years ago," "I did so out of frustration." "I felt like there was so much more to come from the male grooming market." "There was still a new 2.0 brand that was going to deliver what I wanted from the product - something fresh, masculine, modern and introducing the best of traditional techniques with a modern twist." "We were also looking to develop a line of products that would complement the shaving routine, such as razors and brushes." "My belief - that Gruhme is now ready to go into the mainstream corporate market." "We have a supply chain based here in the UK, worth over 250 million in turnover, who also represent decades of experience in this field." "The intention for Gruhme is to become a corporate player." "We have been niche now for three years, last year turning over just £30,000 from our two fragrances." "Before that, it was just £8,000, the year before, just four." "I'm looking for an investment of £75,000, in exchange for 15% of the business." "Ladies and gentlemen, I believe you're looking at the future of UK and, hopefully, global male grooming." "My name is Rob." "I'd love to take your questions and to offer you some samples." "A well-coiffured pitch from Rob Hallmark, who's willing to shave 15% off his male grooming business in exchange for a £75,000 investment." "I have some cards you can spray, if you'd rather not." " I was going to spray Nick, and smell him." " OK!" "And when you stand before the multi-millionaire Deborah Meaden, you only get one chance to make a first impression." "So, Rob, thank you for that." " Hello." "Deborah, thank you." " Can I start off by saying," " that is the sharpest suit and squarest jaw..." " Thank you!" "..I've seen in a long-time, and you fit your product very well." " Thank you very much." " So, that's a great start." " So..." " Are you flirting, Deborah?" " I'm not blushing, it's make-up!" "It's slightly direct, if I am flirting, isn't it?" "No, I get much more coquettish when I flirt." "Actually, you look like a Marvel cartoon character." "I'm loving this!" "LAUGHTER" "Is it Mr Incredible with the really square jaw line?" "Is it Captain America?" "I'm going to scrap this." "I'm going to go and try and get a job in Hollywood, maybe that's my missed calling." "Anyway, the reason I say it, you actually represent your brand very well," " which is, you know..." " Thank you." " That's great." "So, you're making in the UK." " Correct." " You develop the fragrances?" "What I did was, I approached..." "The original plan was to be purely organic, so I researched UK-based, organic, certified fragrance houses, which limited it to just a handful, which helped." "So, I started with the closest, and met the team." "In fact, met the director." "And he actually was a very good mentor, he recommended I didn't go purely organic - it was an acquired taste." "So, I started on a learning curve, and developed what I really wanted above all else, which was a fresh, wearable fragrance, something you would throw on as a grooming routine, bring it back to that morning shower, shave, fragrance" "out of the house." "And so we developed this scent, based on my brief, and a selection, so we whittled it down to this fragrance you have today." " Rob, erm..." " Peter." "I don't like the smell." "It's very, erm..." "It feels like somebody's sort of grabbed me and I've gone through a few lemon trees." " OK." " And there's some... ..lavender on the ground and I feel like I've been dragged along and then left up a lemon tree." "Interestingly, not everyone's into citrus." "My..." "That's quite specific!" "It's good, you should be a nose, Peter, I'm impressed by that." " What else is in it?" " We've got patchouli, which starts to pull through as a heart note, so that's pulling in more of a woody texture." "Then it's got oakwood and musk finishing at the end." "So, it has a woody, smoky finish to it." "Rob is standing firm on the smell, but it seems that Peter Jones is not for turning." "Now, Deborah Meaden wants to know where he stands in a saturated fragrance sector." "This is a market that has seen a lot of new entries recently." " Correct." " A - what was the gap that you saw and B - why do you attack that?" "I think what I was interested in in the marketplace is, there are a lot of start-ups, frankly hundreds coming in." "A lot were in the beard market, a lot of the male brands coming out were a bit too..." "Not to be derogatory, but a bit too T-shirts, tattoos and beards, which wasn't my sort of marketplace." "I just wanted something fresh and masculine." "So, aimed at guys." "Hence I like the monochrome colouring." "The strong name, it's not trying to be too clever, but it's got a twist." "And the lawyer in me was saying, look, you can trademark that." "It's a great name, so as soon as it was trademarked, that was really when I started to take the brand seriously." "Gruhme, how do you...?" "I mean, it doesn't help that I can't read very well, but Gruhme, how do you...?" "Is that how you pronounce that?" " "Groom", yeah." " What is that, German?" "Well, interestingly, I have a bit of German Heritage." "Is that how you pronounce "groom" in German, then, or...?" "Or spell it?" "If I looked at that, I would say that's, like..." ""Grew" or "Grew-me"." "It has been heard before, that some have said, "Grew-me"." "I think the advantage is when they hear "Groom", it clicks and it stays, so it doesn't remain confusing." "Oh, I think when you verbally said it, I knew what your brand was." " Yep." " Obviously." "But I would have looked at that and said, that was "Grew-me"." "Gruhme for men clearly isn't growing on Peter Jones, and it appears that Touker Suleyman, the Dragon at the helm of a quintessential British menswear brand, is also feeling sniffy." "Rob, you missed a big trick." "Why didn't you pick an old English name?" "It could have been Smith  Jones, it could have been Barker  Smit, or whatever you want to call it." " Yep." " And package that as an old English type of product." " Yep." " That would have really attracted heritage, it would have..." "Lots of things." "Rather than being very contemporary, and just another..." "Another piece on the shelf, piece of everything else." "Yeah." "I think it's quite rare to see a brand start today to be this punchy, you know, go for that corporate heart stone, that the big brands like to dominate, as you say, like Boss." "The market, because it's worth billions, you know, we take 1%, that 35 million estimate in 17 years, that's only 1% of the market." "But you've been doing it for three years!" "30 grand is what a little shop takes on Jermyn Street by two o'clock on a Saturday afternoon." "My belief with Gruhme is, it's a new generation product, which means our USP is this start-up culture, the kind of Apple-IBM tussle between the big dogs and the new kid on the block, and I think consumers will come flooding to that eventually." "Oh, really?" "Don't compare yourself to Apple." "You've gone down the wrong track, you're going to compete with the big boys, you're going to struggle, you might do 60 grand next year, or 50, but you'll still lose money." "Go back and read your books, maybe go back as a corporate lawyer, because that's not going to make you money." "I'm not going to invest in you, and I'm out." "Not enough heritage to be distinct for Touker Suleyman." "And he's first to decline the deal." "But has Nick Jenkins sensed a fighting spirit in the young pretender?" "This is one of those extraordinary businesses, where, if you look at the actual cost of producing a bottle of even one of the high street brands that sells for £50 a bottle, what would that actually cost to produce?" "If you're a major brand..." " Yep." " They'd be looking at around about a dollar a bottle." "Yeah, OK." "So therein lies my point." "You are looking at cost of sales of probably a few hundred thousand." "The rest is gross margin." "But, of course, what comes into that is this enormous marketing budget." " Yep." " So tell us about that." "My strategy is to be an alternative, a challenger brand." "So I'm trying to go in places where those brands wouldn't go into and create a kind of guerrilla attack to what we are trying to achieve." "So we've approached hotel chains, who've really adapted the brand because it's different, it's innovative, it's new." "If I'm honest, they're kind of done with the big corporates now." "They're looking for something with more character, frankly." " If you develop a guerrilla brand..." " Yep." "If you crack that then, erm..." "Then you can make a fortune." "E-commerce gifting millionaire Nick Jenkins is finding Rob's sense of adventure commendable." "Can Deborah Meaden see the product in her investment portfolio?" "I have a thing about putting stuff on your skin." "You know, I have publicly said I wouldn't put anything on my skin" "I wouldn't put in my mouth." "So when you said you went down the organic route, I thought," ""Oh, maybe he has found a way of doing..."" "I understand the issues about doing an organic product." "The trouble is yours isn't organic." "I won't be investing." "I'm out." "Rob, you know what, I'm probably going to be condemned for saying this, but I can't help but say what comes into my head." " If I wanted to bring out an aftershave..." " Yep." "..and I wanted to go and invest in a brand," "I'd bring out Peter Jones aftershave." "There's not a smell that I really buy into." "So I'm going to say that I'm out." "Too pungent for Peter Jones, who turns his nose up at a deal." "Consumer specialist Sarah Willingham clearly sees the appeal of the man and his fragrance, but is the business potent enough for her to invest £75,000?" "Rob, haven't you picked the most difficult market in existence, with the most enormous brand names with enormous budgets, to try and, kind of, creep up on?" "It depends on how we want to achieve our growth." "I think some of those big budgets aren't being as effective as they used to be and that's almost their only trick - mass advertising, push products into retailers, push products into the home." "And even, I think, some retailers are finding the footfall's dropping away because they're all becoming very complacent." "I honestly think in reality that unless you've got some kind of superhero power, it would be a market that would really, really scare me to try and... (It's exciting.)" "Without a USP, without a story," "I think it's a tough, tough, tough market." "I just think you're going to really struggle to break into it," "I really do." "I'm afraid I'm out." "Four Dragons have declined the offer." "Rob's hopes now all rest on Nick Jenkins' willingness to splash the cash." "I actually quite like the brand, Gruhme," " because it's not trying to pretend to be anything else." " Yeah." "The difficulty is in trying to understand the probability of you being able to pull this off and that is completely unpredictable." "I'm afraid, unfortunately, I just can't get beyond the fact that what you are essentially have and what you've valued at £600,000 is someone else's formula and a nice name, but not enough certainty that this will work for me" "to be able to invest." "So I'm afraid I'm out." " Thank you, everyone." " Thanks, Rob." " Good luck." "Thank you very much." "Thank you." "And so the former lawyer leaves the room empty-handed... ..but with a third career choice." " Who is the Marvel character?" " Is it Captain America?" " No..." "No, I think it's Mr..." " Is it not Buzz Lightyear?" " It's Mr America." " I think it's Buzz Lightyear." "I think it's Mr Incredible." "'Not feeling Mr Incredible at the moment." "'It surprised me they were so unwilling to have a crack.'" "They were concerned it couldn't be done and that's where we're different." "Next in the Den, a man who believes people need more convenient access to some of the best cooking in the world." "I'm passionate about the business." "No-one else is doing what we're doing." "The challenge of going into something which was forward thinking and Internet-based was really, sort of, quite a fun thing to do." "It's tough, though, building something from scratch." "I just hope they like what the business has got to offer, really." "Hello." "My name is Peter Georgiou." "I'm the founder and CEO of Supper." "Supper is a web-based, on demand, high-end food delivery service currently working in central London." "I'm asking for 100,000 for 10% to help with marketing, key hires and further product development." "We've so far partnered with 25 restaurants, two are Michelin-starred, four are represented by Michelin-star chefs, and the rest are award-winning." "We've had sales of over £165,000 and successfully processed over 2,000 orders." "But we've only just scratched the surface." "The aim is to curate the best restaurants in London and place them all together on the same platform for the first time, assuring customers the best choice of eateries available anywhere online." "Supper is, in essence, a technology company." "We've utilised cutting edge tech to link customers to restaurants seamlessly." "However, the delivery process will now, and for the foreseeable future, remain human." "I'd love for you to be part of this culinary journey." "I believe your delivery has arrived." "Singing for his supper is London-based Peter Georgiou..." "..whose company delivers food from high-end restaurants straight to your door." "He's looking for £100,000 in exchange for 10% of his business." " Have you come from London?" " Yes, sir." " You have?" " All the way from London?" " Not in that!" "Multimillionaire Touker Suleyman has entertained at some of the top tables in the capital." "Is this an investment he could dine out on?" "Peter..." "I like the name." "I like the branding." "It's good." "I live in central London so I know every restaurant you need to know." "Have you got exclusivity with these restaurants or can they use any delivery service?" "Yeah, 80% of the restaurants you see on there have exclusivity, but a lot of the restaurants on there..." "Before we came, they wouldn't even consider delivery." "Peter, I'm quite surprised that a Michelin-starred restaurant would allow their food to go out of their restaurant, be placed in your hands and delivered 40 minutes later somewhere else." "Well, we don't work on those kind of timeframes." " What sort of timeframe is it?" " About 15 minutes." " 15 minutes?" " Yeah, we can get..." "The bike can get across London in three and a half, four miles, in 15 minutes." "On an average week, how many orders would you take?" "100 or so at the moment, but the average order is in excess of £68-70." "OK, so £70 is the order." "We take commission from the restaurant." "We have a delivery charge and a service charge." "OK, so on £70..." " Yeah, on a £70 order, we'll make £9." " You'll make £9." "So how much money have you put into it, or how much money is invested?" "What is your structure of the business at the moment?" "I've put over £300,000 in so far." " Of your own personal money?" " Yeah." "Wow." "A huge personal stake from a self-starter willing to put his money where his mouth is." "Now, Peter Jones wants to work out whether the cash has been well spent." "You've had the system developed which is the website, yeah?" "So far, it's the website." "The amount of money that you've ploughed into developing that site is 300,000 or less?" "No, obviously that's the whole business." "That's buying all the bikes..." "So, what have you spent the money on?" "A lot of the money has gone on technology, probably around 190,000 or so." "Right, and where did you get your money from to put the money in in the first place?" "My background is trading." "I was a City trader for 13 years." " Who for?" " I traded for myself." " With whose money?" " My own money." "And how much did you make?" "I obviously did OK, because I've had enough money to put into this business, so..." " Yeah, I've had quite a good run." " So, you made 300,000 or more, or...?" " Yeah." " More than a million?" "Yeah, I've probably taken much more than a million out of the market." "I didn't start the business to become, you know, a billionaire or anything like that." "I started the business because I thought there was a gap in this particular market." "We're here and we're proving that this works." "Peter Jones identifies deep pockets supporting a personal passion, but Sarah Willingham, the Dragon that made her millions in restaurant roll-outs, has been here before." "Peter, I'm going to be a bit controversial." "I'm going to completely disagree, actually." "I don't think you have got something." "I had the largest chain of Indian delivery restaurants in the UK." "I know how hard this is." "The problem is, if this works, it will fail." "There is a reason why top-end restaurants cap their seats and that is because they can control what is going through that kitchen." "It is fine-tuned and, actually, they operate to their capacity." "I've tried it in the lower end of the market with Gourmet Burger, with Pizza Express delivery." "It didn't work for this very reason, and it's because the kitchens cannot cope with that extra level of turnover." "So, if it's a success, it automatically fails, because they can't do it." "It is a difficult thing, and I think one thing we haven't looked at - the corporate market, and how, when corporates order," " they will order £300, £400, £500 at a time." " Yeah." "And some of them want to sit in their own offices and have private meetings." "They don't want to go to these particular restaurants, because..." "Sensitive information." "So if we can tap into that market, there's not many restaurants that don't want more business during the day." " And in the evening..." " Except for the high-end, Michelin-starred ones that actually are so fine-tuned that every hour is all about prep." "They cannot be making things randomly out of the hours." "I think it is a big mistake." "And for that reason, I'm not going to invest." "So I'm out." "Serial restaurateur Sarah Willingham predicts hell in the kitchen, and bows out." "But Peter Jones is having concerns of a very different kind." "Peter, you mentioned about having somebody order at a dinner table or lunch table in their office a Michelin-starred meal." "I can tell you, I've been in business for 30 years," "I own 28 different companies, if any one of my MDs was ordering a Michelin-star meal," "I'd throw him out the nearest window." "That's such a decadent lifestyle." "So your business is not only niche," "I think your model is really in question, your valuation is ridiculous, so I can't invest in something like that." "So, sadly, I'm out." "Two Dragons have declined the deal on the table." "Is Touker Suleyman tempted to invest in Michelin-star meals on wheels?" "If you had come here today and said," ""I have got a contract with every restaurant you can't get into..."" "You know, where you've got to wait three months to get a booking, or they're always fully booked unless they know you, and you had your USP, something very unique, and said," ""People want to get into these restaurants, they can't," ""but I can deliver it..."" "I agree with you, but we've spoken to all those restaurant groups, and they're on the wait-and-see." "So, obviously, it's a sort of chicken and egg." "We need to deliver and show that the business is taking off, and actually, this is working, and high-end restaurants can actually use our service and be confident that when they've given us the food, the customer will receive it" "at the other end." "With all due respect, it's a very small proportion of the population in Kensington and Chelsea, in that area," " that are going to want Michelin food delivered." " No, but..." "They want the experience." "So my thing is, they want the experience of going there and having that Michelin-star experience." "They don't want a takeaway, and pay Michelin star prices." "So, for that reason, I'm out." "A flawed food concept for Touker Suleyman, who becomes the third Dragon to decline the deal." "Now, Deborah Meaden is pondering whether a £100,000 investment will even touch the sides." "How much have you allowed in your future projections for further investment?" "OK, well..." "I mean..." "The thing is..." "I know that the business..." "Like, obviously, we have however many customers... 1,200-1,500 customers, and if we get to, say, 6,000 in the next, you know, three weeks, four weeks, whatever, we do a big marketing campaign," "then hopefully we'll achieve those." "And I understand, they're not super sexy for an investor." "But they are quite conservative." "Peter, I'm letting you run with this," " but it in no way answers my question." " OK." "Probably, in order to achieve a growth of, say, 6-7%" " on 30%, 40%-plus..." " No." "Nope." "Good try, but that doesn't answer my question, either." "Around 300,000-350,000, probably." "Of what?" "Cash to keep the business going..." "So, you're going to need an additional 300,000-350,000?" "Yeah." " First of all, I'm glad you're aware of that..." " Yeah." "..because I absolutely promise you, you're going to need more money." "And I can tell you now, knowing you're going to need more money, which means that I'm going to get more diluted and, I promise you, it'll be a lot more than 350,000," "you're going to dilute me to the point at which I'm..." "I'm just not going to be interested." "I'm sorry, Peter, but you've structured it wrong, which is a shame." "So I'm out." "The final bill is too much for Deborah Meaden, which leaves just one Dragon." "Does e-commerce expert Nick Jenkins also take the view that Peter's food delivery concept is overcooked?" "Now, if you had come to me with someone who really understood the restaurant business, years and years of experience of understanding how kitchens worked, that would be helpful." "If you had come to me with a really good understanding of how the logistics side of this worked, then that would have been really helpful." "But, unfortunately, you've got lots of passion, lots of enthusiasm, and you have thrown a lot of money into this, and thrown your life into it, but that's not enough to convince me that you can make this work." "So I'm afraid I can't invest, and I'm out." "Thank you very much." "So the final verdict is delivered, and Peter Georgiou heads back to London without a Dragon investor to join him for the ride." "I think they, sort of, underestimate the sort of appetite for this kind of delivery service." "I suppose it is niche right now, but it may not be niche in a year or two's time." " Made me hungry." " Yeah." " Is this beef tartare?" " Beef or tuna?" " I don't know." "Nick will eat it." "Just don't eat the plastic, Nick." "Still to come on tonight's show..." "Boxing gloves." "This is what I need!" "..a culinary challenge..." "It's probably the most alien food that I have consistently eaten over a period of time, ever." "Nobody buys a snack that does that." "..and a clash of personality." "We didn't start off on the right foot." "I think the excitement - you got a bit carried away with it." "Don't blow it." "Go and talk to the wall." " Go and climb the wall." " Sensibly." "Next into the Den, a married couple trying to combine their family tradition of making a living from the South Wales shoreline with a popular Japanese snack." " Oh, they've got water here." " Can you pour me a glass, please?" "Don't drink too much now, right?" "(Just forget about the Dragons, yeah?" "Forget about them.)" "'I had lots of respect growing up with my grandfather." "'People knew his name for miles on end.'" "There was always an obligation on me to keep his name alive." "And I think he'd be immensely proud to..." "To see his name..." "To see his name on the products throughout the shops." "(Come on." "Do it for the boys.)" "An emotional connection to the past, but will the entrepreneurs manage to hold it together when laying out plans for the future?" "Hello, Dragons." "My name's Ashley Jones and this is my wife Kate." "We're here today seeking a £70,000 investment for 20% equity in our company Selwyn Seaweed Ltd, which produces light and healthy seaweed snacks." "Selwyn was my grandfather, and established a business over 50 years ago on the beautiful shores of the Gower Peninsula." "Selwyn would gather his cockles, mussels and laverbread daily and sell them throughout the South Wales valleys." "In 2008, I visited Japan, and I was impressed by their mutual love for seaweed." "Whilst there, I discovered flavoured, roasted seaweed snacks, and after some research, decided this was a perfect new direction for our company." "We've sailed the seven seas to source only the best - dim ond y gorau, grade A Nori seaweed." "And in July 2015, we launched three flavours of seaweed snack - honey and sesame, which has won a Great Taste award, sea salt and vinegar and coconut and chilli." "Seaweed-flavoured food and drink are set to be the next big superfood trend in Europe." "This presents a great opportunity for manufacturers such as ourselves." "And we would love it if a Dragon or Dragons were to join us on our adventure." "Who would like to try some?" " ALL:" " Yes, please!" "A passionate pitch by a couple with the sea in their blood." "So, we have three plates there." "Kate and Ashley Jones are looking for £70,000 for a 20% stake in their seaweed snack business." "Deborah Meaden has digested both pitch and product, and appears to be grappling with a snack food dilemma." "So I've eaten and all of my salt and vinegar I thought were lovely." "Thank you." "And, actually, I agree with you, they're actually quite satisfying." "But I'm slightly disappointed by the consistency." "When I'm eating a snack, I kind of want to..." "You know, we're all used to tearing this off and pick up fingerfuls." "This doesn't feel like a snack." "I've got slightly sticky fingers and I'm not quite sure how to eat it." "It kind of feels to me like it should be a little less alien." "The seaweed comes in very thin forms, so it's almost like a sushi sheet." "There are, obviously, secondary processes where we can maybe make a sandwich or different ideas..." "We can make the product thicker, but at this stage, this is what has been eaten around the world and that's the format we've decided to take on." " Kate, Ashley." " Hi." "I'm a convert of seaweed, so I just want to start by saying that." "I spent a year in Japan and it's probably the most alien food that I have consistently eaten over a period of time, ever, anywhere in the world, but I actually think just because they eat it in Japan doesn't mean that" "it will translate over to a Western palate." "It's quite hardcore, isn't it, as a flavour?" "Do you think the UK market's ready for a seaweed snack?" "I absolutely adore the flavours." "I snack on them all the time, my kids snack on them and, yes, it is relatively new to the UK market, but we believe that it has great potential." "It's healthy, it's nutrient dense and the flavours, I think, do appeal to the UK consumer." "One question for you - how much does a packet of this cost" " at retail?" " Retail, 99p." " OK, the slight issue I have here   it is only 4g." " Yeah." "So this is actually a snack for people who don't want to fill themselves up." "It's like a weenie, weenie, weenie packet of crisps." "I would much rather pick that up and feel better about the way I've eaten and..." "I get that but it's like, "Here's a packet of crisps" " "with a crisp in it."" " Yeah." "Yeah, it is the same as other seaweed snacks on the market." "I think, as it is at the moment, you're pioneering in a very risky market." "You're producing what is, per gram, an extraordinarily expensive product." "I would be more attracted to this business if it was starting with the raw seaweed and you were doing it locally because then it would be an interesting story." "I really hope you end up producing your own, but I'm going to have to leave you to it, I'm afraid." " I'm out." " Thank you very much." " Thank you." "Not authentic enough for Nick Jenkins, who becomes the first Dragon out." "Peter Jones has backed everything from hot sauce to noodles, but are the numbers attached to this seaweed snack rock-solid?" "So take me through the amount of money that's gone into this business." "We spent, personally, about £275,000." " Are you serious?" " Yeah." " You've spent £270,000?" " Yeah." "We've built a new factory which is..." "We think is good enough for any supermarket." " Do you own the factory?" " No." "We've built the factory on the previous owner's land and we have a rent-free agreement." "You built the factory out and you don't own that factory?" "No, but I have a great relationship with the owners of the land" " and we have a lease agreement for 20 years." " I bet you do." "You've just given them money for the next 20 years in advance on the back of a business that you haven't yet properly launched." "Peter Jones is struggling to get to grips with their strategy, but does Touker Suleyman share his concerns?" "Guys, it's all about the brand." "You are entering a very, very competitive field and unless you have the cost of production really low and you have an excess capacity that you can really churn out..." "Yeah, we can produce 20,000 packets of seaweed a day" " in an eight-hour shift." " And how many are you selling at the moment?" "Not enough at the moment, obviously." "We're only producing three days a month at the moment because we have spare capacity." "So you actually run the factory three days a month?" " Yeah, and then we sell the stock then." "So we have..." " It's just us." " The rest of the time, the factory stays idle?" " Yeah, yeah." "A factory only operating three days a month is small fry for Touker Suleyman." "Deborah Meaden is a convert to the taste, but will she see seaweed as a solid investment?" "If I were you, I would try to do something different." "I wouldn't do what everybody else is doing." "I'd turn it into what I would call a snack." "You know, I've make it edible for me when I'm walking around, because I'm not quite sure what it is." "Nobody buys a snack that does that." "So I'm afraid I won't be investing." "So I'm out." "I just feel that the consumer is..." " It's just not there yet." " OK." "You need to have a particular palate, you need to really yearn for new, exciting, healthy things." "Of course there is a market for that, but it's not a particularly big market." "It remains quite niche." "I don't think we're there yet." "It's not for me, I'm afraid." "I'm sorry, I'm out." "Sarah Willingham and Deborah Meaden cast the business proposition adrift." "It's down to Touker Suleyman to revive the hopes and aspirations of a seaweed harvesting dynasty." "I'm very concerned that you've got this production facility and you've got three days' production per month." "My advice would be to find out what else can that factory make?" "And keep the brand totally separate, otherwise you'll always lose money." "I personally think you're very passionate about seaweed," "I can understand why, but I'm not going to be on that journey and I'm out." "That just leaves me." "I do like the product." "Thank you." "Both of you are incredibly passionate and driven." "That's a positive thing because people buy people first." "The issue is that I still can't get my head round why you would spend a quarter of a million pounds on rent as opposed to buying the very thing that actually is an appreciating asset." "Nobody in their right mind would pay 20 years in advance on a building." "I've never heard of it in 30 years of business." "I guess that shows my commitment, that I want to be there for 20 years, running a business." "I think that's bordering on ludicrous." "We could do something else with the building, obviously." "It's ours for 20 years." "So, therefore, we could make different seaweed products or even leave the seaweed behind and do other food manufacturing" " in the premises." " But that's not our intention." "We truly believe in this product." "My grandfather's been in business all his life, my father, my mother." "We're passionate about being in business and doing the best we can." "Yeah, but there's a difference between passion and the direction of that in business and what you get out of it as a result." "I would get concerned, if I was to invest, the speed at which you would make those emotional decisions and not really protect the very thing that would be important to me, which is my investment." "I'm not going to make you an offer." "So I'm out." " OK." " Thank you." "So it's all over for the kelp crusaders, who failed to take a Dragon back to Wales, but still have fire in their belly for the business." " We tried." " Did well." "We'll make it." " We will." " Yeah, for our boys." "We're still passionate about our product and about our brand..." "And certainly determined to succeed." " OK?" " Good luck." " Let's do this." "The final entrepreneur in the Den is a Cornish engineer with a passion for building things." "When I was a kid, playing with Lego that was..." "I've always known that was what I wanted to do." "I always wanted to make stuff." "'And because I am passionate about sport,' it was a natural progression to work in an area to do with sport and fitness." "So..." "It's all good." "'We're a small business from Cornwall' and we want to take over the world, and why shouldn't we?" "A confident prediction from an inventor with ambition." "But will the Dragons share his vision?" "Hello, Dragons." "My name is Simon Heap and I'd like to introduce Rugged Interactive." "I'm here today to ask you for £100,000 in return for a 10% equity share in our company." "Using motivational technology and innovative new software techniques, we've, erm..." "We've tried to take the best of gamification and competition and make exercise more motivational, more fun, more exciting." "Interactive fitness is just at the beginning of its market growth." "There is no doubt that, in years to come, going into a gym and running on the treadmill or lifting weights will become archaic and unusual." "Our CardioWall, FitMakr and TrailBlazer products are now profitable and we expect to triple our turnover next year." "We sell globally and... design and manufacture our products in Cornwall and we're very proud to do so." "I'd now like you to come up and have a go with our sports scientist Lucy and our designer Lauren." "OK, so who would like to have a go?" "TOUKER GROANS" "Futuristic sports equipment inventor Simon Heap is looking for £100,000 for a 10% stake in his lightpod-bopping business." " Do I just go here?" " Yes, you're on this side, you're on that side." " Go!" " Hit the red one." " Just the red one." "They test various things - stamina, high impact, interval training." "More speed, less power!" "Faster, faster!" "Four, three, two, one, zero." " You're done." " 64-45!" "Some friendly competition in the Den." "I might have a go." "Sarah, are you going to have a go?" "I'll have a go." "But when it comes to spotting a business opportunity, the gloves are off." "Boxing gloves." "This is what I need!" "I might just wear these in the Den constantly." "Go, go, go!" " That's good." " Hit right on the..." "Right in the middle." "Oh, it's really even." "Come on." "Stop, stop, stop!" "It's finished!" " SARAH GROANS" " Deborah wins." "Deborah wins." "That's just as well because I get really grumpy when I lose." "Technology business guru Peter Jones is the only Dragon with enough puff left to ask the first questions." " OK, so that's game one." " Yes." "And what's the difference between the other two?" "So they all run off the same core technology." " So, it's the same idea with that?" " Exactly, yes." "Yeah." "It's in a different body." "It's more suitable for different environments." "So that particularly goes well in schools and trampoline centres, recently." "And, obviously, the climbing wall is for climbing, so it goes well in climbing centres and in schools." "It's the same thing." "And if you had it up there, you'd be climbing along and around it." "Can I just feel the...?" "I just want to feel the grip on it, actually." "Because that is the deal-breaker, isn't it?" "The thing is, these are really easy for kids to hold on to, so they forget about how much they're using their body and they scamper around the place and they love it." "OK, that's good." "OK, so you turned over, the most recent year," " and your best year is 250,000 revenue?" " Yes." "Can I call my advocate at this point?" "Would that be OK?" " What does he do?" " He's new business and sales." " What's his name?" " Martin Worth." " OK, let's get Martin up, then." "Thank you." "With a financial grilling looming, it appears the sports equipment innovator isn't prepared to take on Peter Jones alone." "Enter Simon's business associate, Martin Worth." "Will he be able to provide clarity on the fitness of the finances?" " This is Martin." " Hi, Martin." " Hello." "So, I was just asking Simon, the last 12 months you've turned over..." " Generated sales of 250,000?" " Yes." "And he then, I don't know why, but seemed to get a little bit worried and then called for you." " Are you his safety blanket?" " I don't know." "I've never been called that before." "So, talk me through the last..." "This last year, 250,000 in revenue." "What was the gross profit that you made?" "So, in the last 12 months, we anticipate posting..." "Just about breaking even on that figure." "Was that what I asked you?" " Gross profit." " Oh, sorry, the gross profit." "In the last..." "Well, the..." "The gross profit that we're posting at the moment is around about 50% on the turnover." " So around about 125,000?" " Yes." " You've valued your business at £1 million." " That's right." " Yes." "And you're definitely old enough to be slightly sensible." "Yes." "Careful." "So, what's..." "What am I missing?" "Well, it's been an incredible run rate over the last quarter." "Our run at the moment is £50,000 a month and that is growing month on month." " Shall we go through the balance sheet?" " Go ahead." "Ask me questions and I'll respond." "I'm not an accountant." "You know, numbers..." "I'm an engineer." "My background is not, you know, numbers." "So, you know, I've left that to others." "What's the number at the bottom of your balance sheet?" " Is it positive or negative?" " Positive." " How much?" "Obviously, that varies, but, at the moment, it is..." "Roughly £10,000." "Actually, it's a bit less than that." " Simon, do you not know?" " I don't know exactly." " No?" "The trouble is, if you put enough ish-es into a balance sheet," " you can end up being several hundred thousand pounds out." " Yes, yeah." "So, I'm asking you." "You don't really know, do you?" "I don't." "Despite the arrival of backup in the Den, it hasn't saved Simon from an edgy exchange over the balance sheet." "Will Touker Suleyman go any easier on the business duo?" "How big is your forward order book in money terms?" "In money terms for the next year, we're looking at 800,000." " Physically written orders?" " We've..." "No, no, no, physical orders, written down, confirmed   what have you got?" " We've got several commitments..." "No, no, no!" "Physical orders in money terms, signed, sealed and delivered," " that would confirm?" " Yes." " How much?" "We've got commitment on the 800,000." "So your next year's turnover would be in excess of, what, £800,000-1 million?" "That's our estimate, yes." "You have not got £800,000 worth of committed orders, have you?" "Can I ask the boss?" "Have you got £800,000 worth of committed orders?" " Can I answer you in a different way?" " No, just..." "It's a yes or no." "We..." "We have a forward..." "We have a forward order book for..." " 800,000?" " No, for half a million." "Our pipeline is half a million." " Your pipeline?" " Yes." "You have not got forward orders of 800,000, have you?" "No." "Confusion around what's been promised and what's been confirmed has left the Den disgruntled." "The Dragon who made her millions in holiday parks wants to drill down into what's driving their sales to date." "Can I ask - how much do they cost?" "How much do they sell for?" "This one here, depending on the..." "The warranty and the support, is around about £8,000-9,000." "So, what I'm interested in is how that will enhance my revenue." "Why would that make my business in a gym better?" "OK, so..." "So, you know, gyms are boring." "They have a high churn rate." "People go to the gym and I think it is something like two thirds of gym users buy a membership and never go back." "I can cut this short and say it makes it more interesting..." " It makes it more interesting." " ..when you go to a gym." " It makes it more compelling." " OK, OK." "I've played something really similar to this on Brighton Pier." " Yes." " I've played it many, many, many times." " Because it's a lot of fun." " It is." "So, what is your USP?" "You know, as a business, our USP is our..." "Our ability to create and innovate." "One thing we don't talk about is it is Internet-connected, it goes up to the Cloud." "But why is that a benefit?" "It's not a benefit for the majority of people, but for professional sport and health care and schools, it's a real benefit because it means they can track longitudinal performance." "You know, this isn't just a British business." "This is a British business selling worldwide." "We know it's popular in America." "We know it's popular in China." "We know it's popular in France." "We're ahead of the game." "Nobody else is where we are." "The entrepreneurs have come back fighting." "But for one Dragon in particular, it's wasted energy." "As you probably know, I was at university business school with your business partner, Harry Stevens." "So, according to the rules of the Den," "I won't be able to invest." "I didn't actually know that you were coming in today and I didn't say anything until the end because I just thought I would sit back and..." "And watch the fireworks." " But we will let nature take its course." " Thank you." "But I'm out." "Den rules dictate that the Dragons can't know anything about the business beforehand, so Nick Jenkins walks away." "But are Simon's products innovative enough for tech pioneer Peter Jones to overcome his concerns about their order book?" " Martin, we didn't start off on the right foot." " No." "I think the excitement - you got a bit carried away with it." "But I've got to say, I really like it." "And I don't think it's a game, potentially, that will become repetitive and boring, either, because it's got that whole cardiovascular fitness piece." "It's not a game." "You know, this is basically to try and get you healthy." "The thing I do like also, it's typically, quintessentially British." "I love it and I love it so much, I want to make you an offer." "But I want to make you an offer on the basis that I do think it works best in terms of collaboration, so I'm going to offer you half of the money..." "..but for that, I want 15% of the company." "And I'll offer the other half." "It's an extraordinary turnaround, with two Dragons ready to invest, although asking for 20% more of the business than was on offer." "Has Deborah Meaden also seen anything in the game of throws to tempt her to invest?" "Do you know the thing, for me, you actually got me very, very early on, and it's the fact that it was watching these two play that made Sarah and I think, "We want a go"." "I've seen games that work and games that don't work and I've seen why they work and why they don't work and this is..." "This has got something about it." "So, I, too, am going to make you an offer." "I'm going to offer you half of the money and I want 15% of the business." "Thank you." "OK, we need somebody that understands global business and, you know, can make those deals happen." "And, you know, I don't want to sort of, say," ""Peter, give me your CV," but, you know..." "I wouldn't." "I'm amazed." "You must have done your research." "Yeah, but I'd like to hear, you know, not in terms of..." "Not your experience..." "No, I can give you all the words till I'm blue in the face." " Yeah." " All right, you tell me, what does Peter's global business do?" "Well, international technology and expansion and exploitation of new ideas around the world." " So, you know..." " So, which bit of that...?" " No, listen." " That sounds like a slam dunk to me!" "I mean..." "Don't blow it..." "Don't blow it now." "I need to declare my hand." "I'm going to give you just a little piece of advice now - you could blow this." "I do think you've got amazing offers." "So, I'm out." "Don't blow it." " Go and talk to the wall." " Go and climb the wall." " Sensibly." " We're going to talk to the wall." "(Of all the questions in all the world...!" ")" "With Sarah Willingham and Nick Jenkins out, there are three Dragon offers to consider." "But they're demanding 30% of the company, three times as much as the 10% the entrepreneurs wanted to exchange for the cash." "They're getting a great deal." "I think 30% is a little high." "I think, you know, if you could come back with a lower percentage, that would..." "That would seal the deal." "We were looking somewhere around 15." "I mean, we are..." "We are way apart, aren't we?" "You're 15 and we're 30." "That's way off." "But there's a middle point, isn't there?" "Deborah, would you do anything if your investment was repaid?" "Yeah." "Yeah." "Yeah, that could be an option, a buy-back." " Cos this is all about risk." " Yes." "The minute I receive back my investment, I will give you back 5%." "So, that leaves me then with 10% in the company." "I would agree that, but I would put a timescale on it." " OK." " Within the next two years, Peter, would that sound sensible?" "Deborah Meaden and Peter Jones have joined forces to clinch the deal." "Touker Suleyman is now flying solo." "Will he up the ante?" "Touker, where are you here?" "I would say, I'll give you the whole 100,000 for 20%." "HE EXHALES" "A bold late move from outsourcing supremo Touker Suleyman, who undercuts the other Dragons by letting them keep more of their company upfront." " 30% with a 10% buy-back..." " Yes." "Thank you for your offer..." "..but I think we're going to go with Deborah and Peter." " Excellent!" " Wow!" " SARAH:" " Well done." "Congratulations." " Well done." "The entrepreneurs snatch victory from the jaws of defeat..." " Well done." " Lovely." " Glad we got there in the end." "It's very exciting." "..and they walk away with £100,000 and two Dragons well-suited to take the interactive fitness machines global." "'It was up to us not to mess it up.'" "There was a point where perhaps it looked as though it was going that way but, you know, I think it was..." "They understood and they got it." "Well done, guys." "Well, Touker, you put the cat amongst the pigeons then." " I thought it was going wrong at one point with Martin." " So did I." "It was the structure I was worried about - about who they employ." "Was that why you got so worried, you offered 100,000 to undercut us?" "A triumphant end to a pitch that looked for a while like it was going totally the opposite way." "Three Dragons vying for a business is a fitting way to conclude tonight's show and, indeed, this current series." "The Den has opened its doors to a myriad of entrepreneurs and an accomplished few have secured investment." "Along the way, the Dragons have encountered the innovative, the ingenious and the outright implausible." " That..." " Oh, he's going to break it." "Dragons, I'm a multimillionaire." " I don't need money." " I'm oot!" "It's quite good, isn't it?" "Oh, yes, now we're talking." " You all right there, Nick?" " I've been reborn!" "How about if we just cut to the chase?" "Do you understand you are standing in Dragons' Den?" "Don't blow it." "You worked in three investment banks." "God help us!" "I think you're just a scaredy-cat." "Ohh!" "I like what I see." "I think you've got a cracking business." "I'm going to make you an offer." "I would prefer it that you didn't try and negotiate and then at the end of all of this, we can share the honey." " Bee-hive yourself." " Like it." "Excellent!" "Well done." "Oh, I'm really pleased." "Thank you." "Thank you." "Thank you!" " Unbelievable!" " Brilliant!"