"transcript - thx to fero" "Since I was about that high - as they say, knee-high to a grasshopper" "I thought that God was calling me to religious life." "So after high school I entered the School Sisters of Notre Dame." "And I taught school, and I was a good little nun, for many, many years until I met a gay man and that friendship really changed the direction of my life." "The question that Dominic kept asking me - he said:"Sister, what is the Catholic Church doing for my gay brothers and sisters?"" "Do you speak any English?" "Ah, a little!" "I don't speak Italian at all..." "Sorry!" "These roads are so interesting " "I mean - they're not laid out rectangularly, they're just all curved..." "I don't know how anybody knows where to go!" "Oh!" "St. Peter's!" "Now that I recognize." "Oh, this... this?" "Thank you." "Thank you." " There are a few questions that he's going to ask." " Sure." " The pronunciation of your name is..." " Jeannine." "Jeannine Gramick." " OK." "This is St. Peter's Square, where I was, with the" "National Coalition of American Nuns in 1994." "The bishops were having a synod on religious life, and we were protesting, because we were not part of the synod." "They were talking about religious life and we weren't there." "So we had this big banner that said:" "No speaking about us without us." "And some Vatican guards came up and confiscated one of our banners, and took us to their police station back there and kind of - you might say arrested us." "They got our passports, our names, and where we were from..." "They couldn't believe we were nuns!" "This publication of the book in Italian is getting the word out." "Obviously, it wouldn't be something that Cardinal Ratzinger - or the Congregation - would be happy about, because they weren't happy with the original book in English, so I'm sure they wouldn't want it to be circulated in Italian or other languages." "But the personal significance of it is:" "It could draw some ire from the Vatican, but we need to forge ahead." "We need to do things that are liberating for others." "And I think the book will hopefully be a contribution to that liberation." "And we should not be treating others as second-class citizens." "Lesbian and gay people have a rightful place in the Church, just like everyone else." "We ask this God of life and love to bless her, to keep her strong, to keep her faithful, and we give thanks tonight for her." "58 years in this world, her 40 years in religious life, the 29 years of her presence in the lesbian and gay community, and we say: "Ad multos annos!" "Many more years!"" " Amen!" " Thank you!" "Yes - many more years!" "So what have you been doing travelwise these days?" "Well, I just got back from Philadelphia" "I went to celebrate my birthday and my father's birthday." " How old is he this year?" " Eighty-five." " Wow." " Does your dad know about your ministry to gays and lesbians?" " Oh, sure." " And he's cool with it?" " Well... the story about my father... when I first got into this ministry at the university, there was an article - about this nun meeting with gay people at the convent." "It was in the paper." "So actually, that's how my dad and my mom found out, they read it in the paper!" "But I was..." "I was seeing them that day, and they said: "What's this?"" "And I said: "Well, you know, I met these people at the university and we are having Masses for these Catholics who are gay."" "And my father said:" ""Well, why are you doing that?"" "And I said: "Well, somebody has to do it." "The Church has neglected this group of people."" "And then he said: "Well, why don't you let the other nuns do it?"" " And does he know that the Vatican..." "is calling for...?" "He knows vaguely." "He knows that the cardinals in the Church - meaning Rome - aren't happy with what I'm doing." "You know, he has said to me:" ""I told you, you can't go against a cardinal." "You never should buck a cardinal."" "(Male:) That's a cardinal rule." "(Male:) I haven't really gone to church for about four years." "I'm like - why should I spend time going to a church that doesn't like me, that doesn't want me for who I am, that " "You know, I don't think we should let what some people in Rome say divorce us from our community of faith." "But isn't that what being Catholic is?" "That you have priests, bishops, cardinals, the Pope?" "That hierarchy?" " That's not, I mean, what was " " As opposed to Episcopalian?" "But what was being Catholic when Jesus walked this earth?" "There weren't priests, bishops, cardinals, you know." "That is not of the essence of what Christianity is about." "Look at this, she's going right through." "Yay!" "Sister Chocolata." "Ladies and gentlemen, it is my great privilege and honor to introduce to you a fellow Philadelphian, Sr. Jeannine Gramick, of the School Sisters of Notre Dame." "Thank you." "Thank you." "Thank you very much." "And thank you, Frank, for that wonderful introduction." "So, what is the place of silencing in the social teaching of our Church?" "I think people are like pieces of cloth." "When you iron, the different kinds of cloth can absorb different intensities of heat." "And I think people are like that too." "For one person..." "What one person can do, may not be that difficult;" "and then somebody will look at them and say: "Oh, my!"" ""You are really terrific to be doing that!"" "But it doesn't take as much effort for that person because they may be linen." "But somebody else, who is silk, couldn't take all that heat or all that pressure." "And that's why I think we have to be very compassionate, and not self-righteous, and say:" ""Why can't you do that?" "!"" "Like I'm tempted to say in my community:" ""Well, why can't you stand up to the Vatican?" "I can!"" "But they - you know - they're silk!" "They are beautiful silk." "... and eight... stretch..." "All right, Jane!" "Here we go." "... and left, stretch." "And one and two and three and four..." "Now, to the right, left and to the left, right." "When I was seven" "I felt that God was calling me to religious life, that I could use my popularity with my peers to enable them to have a better relationship with God." "Which was very important for me." "That gnawing feeling continued and then in high school I wanted the gnawing feeling to go away" "I didn't really want it, because I was having a great time." "And I didn't know what religious life meant." "I didn't know at all." "But after high school I did decide that I would enter the convent and the day I entered the convent there was a little ceremony in Philadelphia." "Then, the Mother House was in Baltimore, so my parents drove me down and the whole 2.5 - 3 hour drive or however long it took" "I cried and cried and cried." "And my parents said:" ""You know, we can turn back." ""You don't have to go."" "They didn't want me to enter the convent." "I said: "No, no, I want to go."" "But then, when I got there - I never cried since." "I mean, about being in religious life." "But I guess I was crying because I was leaving the good life - so to speak." "But then life got better!" "Why do I feel called?" "I don't know." "It's the conviction that you have that what you're doing is the right thing to do." "And so it's hard to describe why that conviction, or that belief, is there." "I could've imagined myself doing lots of things but it would be like... walking in shoes that didn't fit you." "I just... feel that these were the shoes that fit." "I'm so glad I'm getting my hair done." "I'll feel so much better." "Oh, look at those trees." "Aren't they gorgeous?" "I wish I had hair like that." "Long, thick, wavy, beautiful, silky..." "Instead of thin... you know... just straight, that you have to perm... (Woman's voice, excited:) Jeannine!" "Oh, Carol!" " I'm so excited!" " It's good to see you." "I was just complaining that God didn't give me nice hair." "You can worry about that all you want, it's not gonna get your hair..." "Look at how nice and relaxed you are." "How unusual." "I know." "You have lots of nuns..." "I have Margaret, Jeannine - you - I had..." "Nancy, Sister Rodrica... (filmmaker:) What's the secret to doing a nun's hair?" "Short." "When I met Jeannine, she had her hair cut like Friar Tuck." "And she just sticks it." "I looked at it, I almost started crying." "You see, they would sit in church, and they would all look at the back of each other's hair and say: "Who did your hair?"" ""Oh, I go to this one..." See, that's what they do in the back of church." "Haha." "Bye!" "What about Frank?" "Well, I don't think Frank will like it." "He doesn't like "poofy hair"." "Good homemade chicken noodle soup." "You got it poofed." "I know!" "I knew you wouldn't like it." "But I like it." "Uh-uh." " I like it!" " It makes you look like an old lady." " Well, I feel better." " It's old lady hair." "I don't care." "I am old!" "I'm not a spring chicken anymore." " It's old lady hair." "A nun visiting Rock Island could get expelled from her religious community for speaking her mind." "But that's not stopping her." "Sister Jeannine Gramick spoke at Augustana College today about ending all forms of discrimination against gays and lesbians." "So you can't speak about the investigation, or homosexuality." "Right." "That was this May." "My response to my Superior General in Maryland was:" "In conscience, I choose not to collaborate with my own oppression." "Like I'm being silenced." "That I couldn't even speak about my... my life and what I've been through." "What's happened since then?" "Will they remove you from the order?" "Well, the threat, um..." "One of the potential consequences would be dismissal from my religious community." "Now, that hasn't happened yet." "But that could possibly happen." "Do you think it will?" "I've been told it will." "Almost everybody would know that the Catholic Church, as most mainline Christian denominations would say that homosexual activity is wrong." "You know, there're many things in Scripture that had meaning for the people 2,000 - 2,500 years ago that don't have meaning for us today." "Slavery is condoned in the Scriptures." "Does that mean it's right?" "So in 1975, the Vatican in its Declaration on Sexual Ethics said that there are people who are homosexual because of an innate instinct." "And that's what a sexual orientation is." "It's an innate sexual instinct towards someone." "So there's no moral blame or condemnation." "It's not morally wrong to be homosexual." "But the Christian churches will say it's wrong to act on that feeling." "As one theologian puts it, how can we have a "be but don't do" theology?" "How can you say:" ""It's OK to be a bird, but you can't fly"?" "And the only answer that the institutional Church has given at this point, has been:" "But there is no possibility of procreation and there is no... what is called complementarity of man and woman." "And you need that complementarity." "The scriptural passage in the Old Testament, the Hebrew scriptures, would be from Leviticus." "That a man shall not lie with another man and then their punishment would be death." "Those two passages from Leviticus are in a section called the holiness code." "Of course, there are other things in that holiness code that are prohibited that we as Christians don't follow today." "For example, the most obvious is the Jewish dietary laws." "And so we put that aside and we do eat pork, we do eat shellfish, we ordain a man who is humpbacked or..." "So, why do we hold on to this?" "And it's a hold-on, because we try to justify prejudices that already exist, and we're gonna use the Scriptures to back them up." "I almost wonder if the churches" " our church, your church, any church - is reluctant to talk about heterosexual activity of all the people who are screwing around with other people and having lustful thoughts and other lustful activities that I think they would alienate too many people" "if they actually beat that drum more than the homosexual drum." "(Sr. Gramick:) That's right." "There's a woman in my community, she's an elderly sister, very frail now, but she taught for years and years, English, and in her elderly years she said:" ""I used to think that there were many absolutes in life." ""This couldn't change, this is absolute the way it is."" "She said, "But now that I've become old," ""I realize there's only one absolute." ""And that is God."" "Anything else can change." "All right." " Thank you all." "(inaudible) the party." " Thank you very much." " You're welcome." "St. Augustine was responsible for a lot of our teachings on sexuality." "And Augustine taught - maybe you knew this, maybe you didn't - but Augustine taught that if a husband and a wife" " so they had to be married - had sexual intercourse with each other and they did not procreate a child as a result of that one act of sexual intercourse, then there was sin involved." "And that was the teaching of the Christian Church for a long time." "I see change happening." "You know what else?" "I admire people who stay in the Church." "Because if everybody left" " it's like everybody going to San Francisco - well, we're not gone to San Francisco, we're in Iowa." "It's been hard for me because I work in a Catholic church and I feel in my heart I don't want to abandon the church." "Because I find the music ministry very life-giving and through the liturgy, at least at my particular church, I'm able..." "I find it life-giving still." "It gives something to me." "And my gayness, I think, is a gift to my liturgy and to the music that I do." "My own creative slant, perhaps." "I think there's a spirituality there that I can bring that a straight person cannot." "I really do." "And I think people see it." "But... yes, my church has abandoned me." "But I'm still there, at least for now." "It's hard." "I have two friends, a lesbian couple in Brooklyn and they went to the local parish church just to see what it was like, and they liked the liturgy there, they liked the people" " they were welcoming - but then they went up to the pastor and said:" ""You know, we're a couple."" "And the pastor said:" ""Fine, we welcome you."" "Well, they knew they had made it when they got envelopes to put their contributions in, and it was addressed to them, to the couple." "So they knew they'd made it." "They had their envelopes." "With their names on it." "They are a couple and they have a son." "So they're a family." "Do you want anything to drink?" "You want something to drink or eat?" " I think I'll have that..." " The lemonade?" " No, that..." "Yeah, the..." " Or orange juice?" " No, the lemonade." " OK, you wanna sit here, Daddy?" "It was only rather recently, in the last couple years that I came to understand that he" " I think - had kept a lot of his feelings about lesbian and gay people quiet." "He hadn't shared them with me." " Well, not that much lemonade." " Oh, all right." "Well, just drink whatever you can drink." " All right." " I'll drink a little bit now." " OK." "You know, he thinks that gay people aren't... right." "There's something wrong with them." " (unclear) I got 50 more done." "Then I took a break for ten minutes." " OK." "Now that he is older and has fewer inhibitions," "I think he's saying more of what he really felt." "I got two more plates." "Don't have no more bread." " OK, no more bread." " What, the board of health." " That's the board of health." "Hahaha." "I'll take care of this and you take care of that." "One more!" " Yeah." "So, to me, prejudice against a whole class of people means there's a lack of some kind of knowledge there." "Because when it comes down to each individual, my father is always loving and kind and accepting." "And when I started to think about it, I just said to myself, he just didn't make known his views earlier, because he didn't want to hurt me." "He wanted to support me and what I was doing." "What do you think of your daughter's work?" "She said:" "What do you think of the work that I do?" "Ah, she does all right." "She's too fussy." "Is this two-way traffic or one-way traffic?" "Two-way." "See the cat going?" "It's two-way." "We always have to be, I think, rooted in the reality and understanding of a person's journey." "And the person's maybe inability to make a certain part of the journey, and to be grateful for where they have traveled." ""New Ways"." "What are you doing?" "!" "No!" " These aren't done." "These aren't done." "Yeah, but where's the..." "None of them are done?" "No." "What happened to the one I just did?" "It's right here." "Oh, OK." "Hold on to it." "Realistically, it's been difficult to balance meeting his needs and being attentive to him with also trying to... to work, to be in the ministry." " Now, let's see." "And I found that there are not enough hours in a day." "Then it comes out that I'm a little witchy." " Not the exact word I would've used, haha." "A little grouchy?" "I don't think so." "It's alphabetical." "New Ways Ministry is a national Catholic ministry and our main focus of work is education." "Helping Church leaders understand gay and lesbian reality better." "And helping gay and lesbian people see the ways that the Church is trying to welcome them into the community." "New Zealand, Japan, Japan, Australia, Japan..." "What section are you on?" " Canada." "... and I think you wanted a drink." " I'll have a big coke." "Oh, you want a big coke." "Then this must be Frank." "I got involved helping out here with volunteer night not long after the first silencing." "I remember, at Dignity, one time at an assembly they were asking for volunteers for New Ways." " We have more over here." " Don't be worrying." "(Frank:) Save the day." "Now, where am I supposed to attach this?" "(Frank:)" " To the top." " The top. (ironically) Thank you, Frank." "(Frank:) OK, a lot of negativity here." "(Laughing.)" " That's twenty-five." "After we're done with that, then we'll do twenty-five more." "(Frank:) You know, we had 70,000 of these printed." "If you're Catholic in America, you're getting this." " Hi Jeannine, how are you?" " OK." "Oh, thank you." " Bye, Jeannine." " Bye-bye." "Pizza's here!" "The first time that I came to Rome as a nun was in 1987." "Some of the people were saying to me:" ""How can you go to St. Peter's?" ""Because it's the symbol of the Vatican, which has been very oppressive to you" ""and to the people that you're working for, lesbian and gay people."" "I would come here quite often, during the course of the day and just go up there, sit down and pray and what I thought about was all the people, the Christians that went before us throughout the centuries" "and what their faith meant to them." "And how the faith of many-many people brought this about." "(Frank's voice:) Often when Church people or Church ministers stand in solidarity with people who are oppressed, they receive the same punishments or oppression that those people receive." "The classic example would be the missionaries in Latin America, who would stand with the peasants and with the campesinos, who are being murdered there." "And what happens to the missionaries, they too are murdered, or beaten, or tortured." "And the same thing seems to be happening here that Jeannine and Bob have stood for so long with gay and lesbian people, who are oppressed and what happens is, they receive the same punishment." "of being excluded, being told, "keep quiet, we don't want to hear about your experience, we don't want to hear about your conscience." "We'd just rather you'd be quiet and do as we tell you to do."" "It seems that lesbian and gay people are accepted by the higher authorities of our Church as long as they are silent." "So, I would be acceptable to the Vatican if I were quiet, if I was silent." "But... that's not right." "We - each one of us needs to speak the truth from our vantage point." "And only when all the voices are heard, and each person's piece of the truth is laid out, can we arrive at where the Spirit is calling us." "That's where Cardinal Ratzinger's office is." "It's the offices of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which used to be called the Holy Office and prior to that, it was called the Inquisition." "The Office of the Inquisition." "So that's its history." "That building has been the home of the bureaucratic department of the Vatican that has silenced a number of people over the centuries." "And from that office came the piece of paper, the Notification, in 1999 that said that I should no longer be in pastoral ministry with lesbian and gay people." "Oh, my gosh!" "Is that Cardinal Stafford?" " Yes." "I thought so." "You may not remember me." "I'm Sister Jeannine Gramick." "From Baltimore, remember?" " Yes, I do remember." "You wouldn't know if Cardinal Ratzinger is in right now, would you?" " No, I don't." " No." " Sorry." " OK." "Um... can I just go up there and ask the person, or...?" "I mean, I've never been in the building." "Do they have...?" "Who does one...?" "Go up to that door there and indicate that you would like to talk with the secretary to the cardinal." "And if he's in and he's not busy, I'm sure he would be able to see you, and you can ask him about it." " Great, thank you." " Yes." " Thank you." "Make sure to let him know who you are, that would be important because..." " Nice seeing you again." " OK." "Uh..." "The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith?" "Do you have a proper document?" " No." "Oh, my passport?" " Yes." "For there?" "No, Cardinal Stafford just told me to go in there and ask for the secretary of the Congregation." "Thank you." "So this priest came down, Father George and he knew my name and he knew my history and he said, when was I leaving, and I said, Thursday morning." "And he said that it was impossible in terms of Cardinal Ratzinger's schedule to get some time with him either Tuesday or Wednesday." "Now, I don't know if there would be time even if I had written, but you know - you don't know." "I felt a little nervous, at one point I'm thinking, is it good for me to be here?" "Even to make my presence known?" "Because, will that stir up another controversy?" "Another letter from Rome?" "So it was just a feeling of trepidation." " Hello." " Telefono." "(Male voice:)" " Yes, this is Andrea." " Hello, Andrea." "(Italian accent:)" " Tomorrow afternoon 4 o'clock, you have an appointment with another journalist." "OK." "We were also to go down to the Con- gregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, we were there today, but Cardinal Ratzinger wasn't in, and we don't think he'll be in tomorrow," "but I would like to give Cardinal Ratzinger a copy of the book." "(Pause:)" " Really?" " Yes." " My God. (nervous laughter)" "These are the events scheduled for tonight." "The Church and homosexuality." "Presentation of the book "Anime Gay"." "Arrived in Rome, Sister Jeannine Gramick." "In the book there are many pages concerning the life of the rebel nun..." " Rebel nun." "You are the rebel nun." " Oh, no." "A rebel nun." "Several times this evening, a number of our presenters referred to me as a rebel." "I do not think of myself that way." "I think of myself as following where I feel God calls me to go." "The main purpose of, I think, my life is to try to build bridges of understanding between lesbian and gay people and the hierarchy and the wider Church that is not lesbian or gay." "We must learn to live together and accept each other." "Oh, you're welcome." "My name is Tommaso." " Thank you very much." " You're welcome." "God bless you." "Unless the hierarchy gets to know lesbian and gay people on a human level, one-to-one, socially, they will have all these myths and stereotypes." "So coming out as gay or lesbian is important not just for oneself, to feel proud and good about oneself, but also to help the rest of the Church." "Well, yes, I have fallen in love, before I entered the convent, and after I've entered the convent." "She asks - if she can - if it was a man or a woman." "Well..." "I prefer not to answer that question." "I have made it a practice, or principle, not to reveal my sexual orientation." "The reason that I did that was because I wanted to put the emphasis on the ministry and not on my personal life." "It has become increasingly more difficult for me to justify to myself why I do not say..." "But it's increasingly more... well... it becomes... it's a problem for me." "I keep asking myself, maybe I should." "But..." "I don't know." "It reminds me of other moments in the Church's history " "Joan of Arc, Galileo, you can name numerous people who are deemed heretical, silenced, burned at the stake, whatever was the mode of punishment at the time, only for 400 years later for the Church to say," ""Oh, they were right."" "And saint them." "So I just..." "I guess..." "How does it feel to be the Galileo of the year 2000?" "Well, I'm not sure that I would say that I'm a Galileo." "When you have the Vatican, representing the Church, go so far as to say you can't speak, how do you stay Catholic?" "How do you keep your faith through that?" "You stay Catholic because we realize that the Church is the people of God." "The Church isn't merely Church leaders." "How has Father Bob Nugent reacted to all this?" "Father Nugent has chosen to comply with the request to be silent." "So he is no longer speaking about homosexuality, or the investigation, or anything that led to it." "And people have asked me:" "How do I feel about that?" "He's not doing..." "His path is different from my path." "And I say:" "He respects the decision I made and I respect the decision that he made." "It's important that we not expect people to do what we would do." " Vatican II says that the Church is the people of God." " Right." "However, often the hierarchy of the Church can send out an edict that would say you cannot speak, or you're no longer a Catholic, or I will no longer offer you communion." "Which denigrates people and makes people feel:" "Well then, I guess I'm not a Catholic." "I think there are very few instances that I'm aware of where an edict was sent out that you can't go to communion." "But we put it on ourselves." "We think:" "Oh, I'm lesbian or gay, so I can't go to communion." "Or:" "I'm divorced and remarried, so I can't go to communion." "We put it on ourselves because we say to ourselves:" "Here is a teaching of the Catholic Church or whatever church and I don't believe in it and therefore I'm going to keep away from the sacrament." "If the Eucharist was meant for people who are pure and holy," " God!" " who would go there?" "Which one of us is worthy to receive Christ?" "None of us." "The Eucharist is meant to nourish our spiritual life, to help us to grow in our love relationship with God." "So let's not censor ourselves from things in the Church that we have a right to." "We have to learn, I think, in the Catholic community to pay attention to a Church teaching that is a best kept secret in the Catholic Church." "And that's the teaching of the Church about the primacy of conscience." "One's conscience." "Now hopefully, when we make conscience decisions hopefully they will be in tune with what our Church teaches but even if what I come to believe is not the same as what my church leaders say," "I have an obligation to follow my conscience." "Most Catholic and Protestant theologians do not agree with the traditional position that homosexual activity is always wrong." "Most of them teach or write and defend the position that if you are in a loving, committed, love relationship then certainly, you can express your love sexually." "Now that's a theological position that differs from the official teaching of most Christian Churches." "But I need to know that." "I need to take into account human knowledge, human wisdom." "When the Christian Church made the prohibition against masturbation it was believed that in every male sperm there was a human being." "With the microscope and, you know, scientific development, we know that's not true about the human sperm." "There's no little person in there that you're killing when you- you know." "What I'm trying to say is, we need to understand science and take all this knowledge into account when we are reflecting on a particular issue." "And then, after all of this study and all of this research you've done then you go to your sacred space." "You go to that place where you are alone with God." "and you - you wrestle with God." "You talk things over." "And you come to a conscience decision." "Before the Second Vatican Council there was an unnatural silence around the question of homosexuality." "But God continually called us out of silence into a wonderful human dialog." "NewWaysMinistry FifthNationalSymposium and when faced with such a sensitive and important issue as sexuality, or the treatment of lesbian and gay people, more conversation, not less, is needed." "That's the National Association of Catholic Diocesan Lesbian and Gay Ministries." "As a "founding mother" I'm always interested in what's happening and I've attended New Ways events." "There are over 500 people here and it is just so energizing," "I listened to people last night how hopeful they feel because of what some of the speakers have said and the enthusiasm of the other participants here." "(Male voice):" "Your children, every one of them whatever their sexual orientation is are a marvel, a gift, a blessing." "For most of these parents it's a struggle to get six of them in a row." "And to have this huge hotel room just full..." "One woman told me that just sitting down in the front of the room and then looking to the back made her cry." "So I think there's a huge sense that you're not alone, not the only people to whom this is important." "I think that was huge." "So for the homosexual person, judging the sinfulness of any particular act is a matter ultimate between God and that person." "Homosexual people will have the opportunity be fully accepted within the Church," "BishopThomasGumbleton Archdiocese of Detroit, Michigan when we, who are the Church fully accept them." "Last night we had a meeting of parents of gay and lesbian children and we were sitting in the bar." "And you know, there's that big elevator with the glass wall and as we were sitting there, Jeannine got on the elevator on the 3rd floor, went up to the 11th." "And so they saw Jeannine ascending into heaven." "Jeannine is the antidote for every priest who's ever been rude to them, every bishop who's ever written something nasty." "So they're like, "There goes Sister Jeannine!"" "What religion that tells you all about love every Sunday and then you find out that your child is gay and all of a sudden that love isn't there anymore." "For 58 years you think this is your family, and all of a sudden, in one instant you find you are no longer a part of that family." "You are not treated with compassion, you are treated with:" "This is sinful, your child is intrinsically evil, your child is flawed." "They abort our children, in a sense." "They are so against abortion, and I think I've been able to work through it too because I see it very much as a pro-life issue." "We don't ask other people that come into church:" "Are they fornicating?" "Or are they having a vasectomy today?" "What kind of God do you believe in, who would create a special class of people and give them all of the attributes of a human being including the capacity and the desire to love another person, and then say no, you are not - that you're forever denied" "A good and loving God would also prohibit them from having an intimate relationship with another human being?" "Which seems to be staff of life for all of civilization, the fact that you have a partner that you can share a life with." "It just becomes so illogical to even think of it in those terms." "It's about baptism." "Our children were all brought to our Church and baptized." "And as a church we all stand there and applaud, and we hold them up to the light" "Every time I see it, I say: "Yep, until you find out that they are gay or lesbian and then what are you gonna do about them?"" "Put them out the door?" "It's about living out those promises that we make." "as Catholic people, to all the people of our Church." "It's simple as that." "This shouldn't even be a question." "We believe in one God, the Father the Almighty, maker of haven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen." "We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father." "God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father." "Through him all things were made." "For us (men) and for our salvation he came down from heaven, by the power of the Holy Spirit he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man." "For us he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered, died and was buried." "But on the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the scriptures." "He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father." "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son." "We believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic church..." ""Take this, all of you, and eat it:" ""This is my body, which will be given up for you."" "When supper was ended, he took the cup, gave you thanks and praise, gave the cup to his disciples and said:" ""Take this, all of you, and drink from it..."" "Hi, Sister!" "Christ's peace be with you!" "from all of us in Vegas." "Thank you." " Peace." " Peace." " Thank you." "Fort Knox, I see Fort Knox." "Lebanon Junction." "Yeah, we went too far." "We have to go back North." "Got it." "(filmmaker:) Which saint do you pray to when you get lost?" "When you get lost?" "Well, St. Anthony, he's the one who finds things, so, I guess, he'd find a way for you." "St. Anthony, help us to find our way." "And St. Jude is the...?" "The saint for impossible cases." "So maybe we should pray to him too." "(both chuckle)" "When I was in Rome, and the Superior General of the SSND's was giving me an obedience to not speak about the investigation that I had been through with the Vatican," "I couldn't speak about homosexuality, at all - really, as she was saying all this," "I knew, that I had to - for my own self " "I had to refuse." "As this poem says:" ""Through wholesome refusals."" "It was a wholesome refusal." "I couldn't" " I could not do that." "She asked if there were any other options." "And I said: "I could transfer to another community."" "And I immediately thought of the Lorettos." "Oh, there she is!" " Welcome!" " Thank you!" " Hi, Mary!" "Hi, Catherine!" " Welcome!" "(Sr. Catherine:) Personally, one of the things that bothered me was that Jeannine's own community would somehow be involved in silencing her." "To me this just seems like a violation of the way how women religious should be allowed to relate to each other." "That's not to have someone direct them to punish each other." "To me, that was a total violation of the privacy of her community." "And I am just so pleased that Jeannine is in a great place now." "Can't say they don't know what they're gettin'." "The Sisters of Loretto were founded in 1812 in Kentucky when Kentucky was the frontier of the country." "So when there was a call for sisters to come and teach the children of people on the frontier, a number of other communities of women were afraid to go and they didn't answer the call of the bishop of the diocese out West." "But the Lorettos always went." "They're pioneer women, they're frontier women, and I feel in my heart so much like a Loretto." "We are the first American order, founded in 1812, and also then we were the first ready to move West." "Moved to Missouri, then to Kansas and to the Indians in Oklahoma then to Santa Fe, and to Colorado, and to Texas, and to California." "Then to China from 1923 to '52, then to South America, from 1960 to '72, so that's always been the spirit." "Move on." "Where there's a need, you go." "This is called a Dearborn wagon." "You can see here the nuns riding in the buckboard part of the Dearborn wagon as they were traveling off the trails to get to Santa Fe." "It is amazing to see the cemetery at the Loretto motherhouse with the gravestones of the sisters who died in the 19th century." "So many of them were in their twenties." "They died so young, facing the perils of the frontier." "But they went." "They went to the frontier." "It's not a question of are you afraid or not, it's the question: "Are you willing to take the risk?"" "I think that's the question." "Thanksgiving, we'll go up to Philly and we'll be with Anna and Joanie." "I'm not going up to Philly. (inaudible)" "You want me to tell a lie?" "!" "Yeah." "I'm very grateful to have this time with my dad." "He means a lot to me." "He's always meant a lot to me." "He's one of the most important people in my life." " You wanna go to the bathroom?" " Thank you." " And a couple napkins." "Thank you." "It's a grace, it's a blessing, it's a gift that God has given me that I can have him." "Even though he is, you know, a little..." "He's not the person he used to be, because of his diminishment." "But at least I have him." "So I'm glad." "I'm getting fat too from all these doughnuts." "I'm getting fat." "Coffee OK?" " Your coffee, is it OK?" " Uh-huh." "Wait a minute!" "OK." "Hey, Frank!" "The bishops who want to stop and say something, they'll come on this side of the curtain." "And the ones who don't want to talk to us are gonna be on the other side of the curtain." "So probably all will be on the other side of the curtain." "I think this will be an empty runway." " Did you see the bishops in there?" "You just saw them on television, right?" "On television." "Where are they?" "They're upstairs." "Someone said they're only allowing..." "there must be a press (inaudible)" "Even with a press credential, you can't necessarily get into the meeting." " Oh." "I am here to see that the terrible problem of sexual abuse by clergy is not blamed on gay priests." "The problem is not homosexuality as such." "I mean, we have had instances where priests have been sexually abusive of women." "Are we then going to exclude hetero- sexual men from the priesthood?" "Are you out about what your orientation is?" " No." " Not at all." " You feel that, uh..." "So you're not saying what it is." " Right." "So what kind of an example are you?" "I'm trying to work to make it a safe place, for church" "But you're saying you can't be out about who you are!" " Oh, you're assuming I'm" " No, I'm assuming nothing." "I don't know what you are." "I'm just saying:" "You're saying that this is something you can't talk about." "So what's your game?" "No, it's not something I can't talk about." "It's something I've chosen not to talk about." "Right." "But wait a minute, with all due respect" "You just said your job is to make the Church a safe place to come out." "Well, shouldn't all people be able to be honest about such a simple thing?" "Not to fear persecution?" "So what's your problem?" "What's my problem?" "That's a good question." "I've never declared my sexual orientation because if I say that I am lesbian or gay- well, lesbian, people would say" "People would say:" ""You're not disinterested."" ""You're pushing your own cause."" "And if I say I am heterosexual, they'll say:" ""You don't really know what you're talking about, because you haven't had that experience."" " Well, I don't say that about heterosexuals." " I'm a hard guy." " Yeah." "This place is like a zoo." "It's ten times more than we've ever seen." "Oh, twenty or thirty times more." "In terms of press interest, and..." "The protesters out there are running the gamut of protesting everything." "There's even a sign, "Doctors Opposed to Circumcision"." " Hahaha." "Like, what are they doing there?" " I want to talk with you about "banning homosexual priests"." "Do you believe that we should do that?" "Is it not kind of unfair?" " In the seminary." "Get the gays out of the seminary." "They've turned it into an underground..." "pollution." "There's a very aggressive homosexual network inside the seminaries today." " But wouldn't it be better just to name the abuse?" "The fruits that homosexual network has produced is what you can simply call chicken hawks." "But there are good priests who are homosexual." "You wouldn't want to root them out." " Not necessarily, no." "I have take the risk of looking homophobic and take the stones of that." "I would claim that I am sane." " Well, I hope so." "I'm trying to point it out to you that we've got chicken hawks that we're raising in the seminary." "Well, that's an abuse." "And it should be eliminated, that's right." "I've been in a Church ministry to try to tell lesbian and gay Catholics that they are part of the Church too." "They have gifts to offer the Church, you know?" " Do you know Sister Gramick?" "Do you work with Sister Gramick?" "I am Sister Gramick." " You are Sister Gramick." "Why did you ask?" "Well, the way your conversation moved." "You are most talented." "I've heard that about you." "But I think we are both..." "both trying to do the same thing." "We're trying to do what's right." "Well, I would entirely disagree with you on that, Sister." "No, you're trying to do what's right." "Because I've been out here against the (unclear) conference," "I've been against Bishop Clark's gay Mass, and so forth." "I'm a big opponent of what I call the gay agenda inside the Church." "Because, we are in effect condoning oral and anal sex." "That's what it gets down to." "No, but I think we both love the Church." "And we both want to see abuses stopped." "We might disagree on how we do that, but we have a great love for the Church." "And I think we have a great faith in the Spirit that it will survive." "And eventually we'll straighten it out." " We will." "I think I was one of the people that wrote to then Bishop Egan to ask that you be removed from Catholic property, in Connecticut, that time..." " Oh, really?" "For that retreat that we did with the parents?" "You know, I wouldn't want to deny that I've seen you clearly as an enemy of the Church." "If I could talk about that retreat" " But at the same time, I love you." " Thank you." "And you know it's mutual." "Oh, that's obvious." "But back to that retreat in Connecticut:" "We ultimately had a retreat somewhere else but it was very..." "the parents felt very hurt." "It didn't hurt us so much as it hurt the parents." "That's what I grieved so much about." "This isn't gonna end till you get the last word, I know that." "No, no, you can have the last word." "You're gonna get the last word." "I've never had a discussion with a woman who didn't have to get the last word." "Well how about we both have the last word?" "I'll tell you what:" "I'll say an Our Father, a Hail Mary and a Glory Be with you." "All right, that would be wonderful." "Thank you, Sister." "(together:) Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name, thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." "Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil." "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus..." "(yelling:) ... priests all around the country and the world anally raping little boys and you're gonna hold up some (unclear) for them?" "A satanic attack has been happening against those little boys' assholes for 1500 years, ever since the second council of Nicea." "I'm gonna tell you something." "You think that's helping those little boys, anally raped?" "Over here, Nazi Taliban from Kansas." "Nazi Taliban!" "All those little boys who've been ass-raped by your bad priests!" " So what are you thinking of what they're saying over there?" "Well, it's curious." "The one time in my life that myself and Sister Gramick agree." "We were very offended- they are very anti-Catholic." "It's a hate thing." "You can't blame all priests, or all gay people, or all Catholics for the abuse of some." "And that's what we are opposed to." " That's correct." "Michael and I don't agree on everything, but we can talk to each other." "But as you witnessed, there's no talking to that person." "All he was doing was spewing hate." "And frankly, to me the only thing is to keep away." "I was really afraid he was gonna hit Michael." "I really was." "You just quote six verses from the entire Bible and ignore the rest." "Excuse me." "Are you with Fred Phelps?" "Are you with Fred Phelps' group?" "OK, that's what I thought." "Thank you." "Excuse me, I just wanted to make known to you that I don't even know what you're proposing but I feel, as a Roman Catholic Sister," "I feel offended that you would use the garb that represents my sisters, to get across your message." "And I don't even know what your message is." "Uh, I respect you as a person, but I'd been offended by actions of members of the RCC that I grew up in." " So you're Catholic?" " I was." "My job is to try to help people like you reclaim your Church and to help the Church institution to welcome back its lesbian  gay members." "You know, we have many, many welcoming parishes." "Parishes that are welcoming to lesbian-gay people, now, this year, that we didn't have 20 or 30 years ago." "Now, you are probably not even 30 years old." "But I'm sure that growing up you didn't feel welcome in the Church and I feel very pained by that." "And I want to apologize to you for the Church." "Because we need to welcome everyone." "The Church of Christ is a Church of inclusion, not of exclusion." " That's what I believe." "Thank you." " Thank you." "All that the Vatican has forbidden me to do it's not, like, everything." "It's very circumscribed." "Why would they forbid you in the first place?" "I don't know, I don't think they should have." "Yes, but why, what was their explanation?" "Their explanation was that I would not publicly say that I agree with the Church's teaching about the immorality of homosexual activity." "And as I explained to them, my reason for doing that was what I believe." "It's my belief, it's a matter of conscience" "And I will, as a Catholic, make a public declaration of whatever the Church teaches that is of the essential elements of our faith." " You can't decide what's essential or not." "No, but Cardinal Ratzinger can, right?" " Sure, he is a member of the Church" "And Cardinal Ratzinger told my" " He's in the Church leadership, he's authorized." " Let her finish." " You still have to believe he's authorized." " I believe that." " Let her finish." "She believes it, she said she does." "Then why are you still doing it?" "I've read recently that you are still teaching anyway." "... And Cardinal Ratzinger told my provincial that homosexuality is not that level of Church teaching that it is essential." "You're trying to find a way to squeeze through all the loopholes!" "That's not following our Lord in the spirit of our faith!" "And I have never said publicly that I disagree with the teaching." "But it means that you can publicly disagree with the teaching but you have to give what's called a religious submission of mind and will." "You have to acknowledge and respect the Church's teaching on that issue." "Well, when's that gonna happen?" "I have given that." " You have given that." " Yeah." "How come that's not so public?" "Well, it's in my books." "How come we are arguing it?" "We're trying to represent the Church and you're disputing it." "Well, what I hope to do  and maybe I don't come across well, but what I hope to do is to be a bridge between people who, uh" " Have that problem." "... who have- you would say who have the problem of homosexuality, people who are lesbian or gay, who think one way, that they're in a loving relationship and then they can express that loving relationship." "And then my church, the leaders of my church, the Magisterium, who would say:" ""Even if you love that person, you have to remain celibate."" "What I'm trying to do is to be a bridge to bring the two parties together in dialog." "If you're a good bridge-builder (and I don't pretend to be a good one)..." " You're pretty decent." " Thank you." "... what you try to do is be as objective as you can and say:" "OK, these are the two views, if you will." " Views?" "!" "That's like saying the Gospel is a story, it's a myth." "You're lowering down the truth." " OK." "But it's trying to bring the two..." " It's not OK." "... parties together and have a " " To bring them with the Church." " But they can only come together in honesty and in truth." "And if the truth isn't present, if they twist things in order to be able to do what they want," ""in a loving relationship" that's been condemned by God since the Old Testament, and maybe even before...?" "All of humanity knows that this is and abhorrent way of operating." "And in every society it's been condemned." "There are churches, Christian churches, that would differ with the Catholic" " There's only one Church." "Even if they make big mistakes and do things they're not supposed to do, if they're off the wall," "there's still only one." " Oh, Bishop Kirwin(?" ")." " Yes?" "This is the person that I..." "I can't." "I gotta go." "I promised" "He didn't want to talk to me." "You know my situation, with the- the Vatican." "And these people are doing a documentary about my- this whole question of conscience." " I am not gonna do that." " You're not gonna do that?" " I'm not gonna do that." "You really created a whole new place for gay and lesbian Catholics and people who love gay and lesbian Catholics to be together in the Church." "It's just tremendously historic what you did." "So we sit outside the bishops' meeting, where 300 gray-haired men in black" "are completely insulated from the voices of the vast majority of Catholic people!" "Hopefully there won't be too many meetings like this, where there's only them there, but some time in the future we'll have all of us in there." "It's gonna take a long time, though." "I know..." "You really think so?" "I don't know, man." "It might happen sooner than we think." "(radio host:) Hello, I'm Marc Steiner." "In 1999, Sister Jeannine Gramick, a nun of the order of School Sisters of Notre Dame, was ordered by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith to cease her ministry to homosexuals and lesbians." "She was the leader and founder of New Ways Ministry that works for the gay community and their families and to eliminate homophobia and heterosexist doctrine from the Church." "This hour, no matter what your opinions, we invite you to talk with Sr. Jeannine Gramick about her work for the gay community and her battle with Vatican doctrine." " Bob in Parkton, you're on the air." " Good afternoon, folks." " Hi Bob." " If the Catholic Church opens up churches for homosexuals and lesbians, should the Catholic Church then have special churches for thieves, adulterers and other sinful things which we all know God sees as sin?" "(female voice)" " Sister Jeannine, hallelujah for you!" " Thank you." " I'm thanking God right now for freedom of speech and I'm also thanking God for you." "(male voice) A few years ago you had a lecture tour in Northern California and you may have forgotten but on that occasion you admitted that you were lesbian." " Have you forgotten that?" " I certainly have." "Because I know I never admitted I was lesbian." "And Moishe on your cell, you're on the air." " Obviously, I'm not Catholic." "It's very refreshing to hear what you're talking about and what you're doing." "I am a gay Jew." " Paul in New York, you're on the air." "Hi Paul." " It seems to me you're not being completely honest with your listeners, because" "New Ways Ministry involves a very radical effort to "deconstruct" heterosexuality." " Tim on your cell phone, you're on the air." " What is my incentive for choosing to be gay in this culture?" "Because I want to be rejected?" "Because I want to be hated, to be discriminated against?" "If I had any way of changing it, I would have." "But I've come over the last 25 years to recognize that this is something that I was born with, blessed with, and I frankly thank God I'm gay, because it's made everything else, all the other challenges in my life," "look that much easier." "I kind of look at the Catholic Church as my religious family." "The religion of my birth and of my childhood." "It's part of my bones, it's within me." "And if I think there's something in my family that I disagree with," "I'm gonna say it," "I'm gonna try to make our family better." "Instead of walking out on my family." "But, I say to lesbian and gay people, who have felt so very hurt by the Church" " and it can be anyone who feels hurt - the most important thing is your relationship with God." "And if the Catholic Church does not nourish your relationship with God, then it's not good for you to be there." "I haven't seen you before!" "Come on." "Aw, come on." "I think God must laugh when in churches we try to do things so perfectly, and follow rubrics and rules." "I think we complicate prayer, we complicate religion, and we've unfortunately modeled the governance of the Catholic Church on the Holy Roman Empire." "It looks more like an emperor, and a monarch, and that's so far from the Gospel, so far." "So when the Vatican talks about scandal," "I think that's the scandal." "That we have such a monarchical, triumphalistic expression of the leaders of our Church." "We don't need any more pronouncements about sexuality." "I mean, the Church's credibility on sexuality is null and void." "(filmmaker) It's shot." "It really is shot." "Let me ask you this:" "If the very worst should happen and they kick you out, in some kind of a definitive fashion, would you still do the same thing?" "Yeah, I would." "In other words, you would still be speaking, you would still be writing, you would be trying to serve the broader Catholic community, in that new way." " Right." "In a new way, and speaking about lesbian and gay issues." "I just feel that Dominic, who got me into this ministry in 1971, when he said: "What's the Catholic Church doing for my gay brothers and sisters?"" "and I said: "I don't know,"" "and he said, "Sister, you better do something,"" " and he has since died from AIDS - he is still there in spirit with me, saying: "Sister, what are you doing, what are you doing?"" "So, I will just continue, the best I can." "Dear Cardinal Ratzinger," "I came to the Congregation yesterday on the chance that I might see you." "I want to give you a copy of "Anime Gay", the Italian version of "Building Bridges"." "I hope this book will help to promote dialog, and build bridges between Italian church leaders and gay and lesbian Catholics, who have great faith and love for the Church." "I wish you could speak to some of the wonderful lesbian and gay Catholics" "I have met in my ministry." "May God bless all our work for the people of God." "Your sister in Christ, Sr. Jeannine Gramick." "Well..." "I hope you like the book and the letter." "We shall see." "I need to deliver this book, just to the" "Well, it goes to Cardinal Ratzinger." "Thank you." "Father George?" "Sorry to bother you, this is Sister Jeannine Gramick," "I'm here once again." "I have a book which I would like to give to Cardinal Ratzinger." " Oh, just leave it here?" "OK." "Well, thank you very much." " Thank you." "Have a nice day." " Thank you." "Bill Calahan" " Father Bill Calahan - was dismissed from the Jesuits." "The reason that was given was obedience, he was disobedient." "But- he was talking about his formation and religious life, about poverty, chastity and obedience, these vows that religious take, and he was saying, in terms of the vow of chastity, that his confreres spent so much time and energy" "and got so many muscles tense, just trying to keep one muscle relaxed."